When there is obvious Police misconduct, who should do the investigation, the Police, or some independent body?
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SQUEEKY2 (
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October 9th, 2014
I have always felt it should be an independent body, never felt right with the Police investigating themselves.
Do you feel the same way, and why?
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53 Answers
It always seems tilted to the Police when they do the investigation, an independent source in my mind would seem more fair.
I think I would have to know about the independent body; their professionalism, the equipment they have at their disposal, and how earnest they are to be accurate.
If that all checks out well, then I am with you. Otherwise, a good team of cops would be preferable to a mediocre (or less) team of private employ.
I would think that if the misconduct is obvious, it doesn’t matter who investigates. It is only when there is controversy that it is an issue.
This, to me, is obvious misconduct, from my link above:
After breaking down the door, throwing my husband to the ground, and screaming at my children, the officers – armed with M16s – filed through the house like they were playing war. They searched for drugs and never found any.
I heard my baby wailing and asked one of the officers to let me hold him. He screamed at me to sit down and shut up and blocked my view, so I couldn’t see my son. I could see a singed crib. And I could see a pool of blood. The officers yelled at me to calm down and told me my son was fine, that he’d just lost a tooth. It was only hours later when they finally let us drive to the hospital that we found out Bou Bou was in the intensive burn unit and that he’d been placed into a medically induced coma.
They never found any drugs, either. If that isn’t misconduct I don’t know what is.
@Dutchess_III – I would agree that something went horribly wrong but according to the article, the police had good reason to believe there were weapons.
“An undercover police officer had purchased drugs at the residence the day before the raid, he said, and observed “two guards standing at the door” and no children. Because they suspected Mr Thonetheva of having access to an AK-47 rifle, they requested a Swat team for the raid.”
I find it interesting that the article cites 7 civilian deaths since 2010 in these types of incidents but neglects the 350+ officer killings in the same period. The cops have good reason to be afraid as well. The cops may very well have been guilty of some misconduct but I’m not sure who or what their guilty of. I place most of the blame on Mr. Thonetheva.
I agree that they had just cause, but the way they handled it after they realized what had happened, keeping the Mom from the baby and yelling at her to calm down, was negligent. They should at least pay the medical bills.
I would definitely agree with the medical bills. They caused the injuries, they must bear the cost. Whether there was misconduct or not.
Pigs like to stick together. They served a warrant because someone said they bought $50 of pot from someone at that location. WTF? Serving the warrant cost more than $50.
Do these police have nothing better to do.
Any officer involved in a questionable situation should have the DOJ investigate. A neutral party. Well, sort of.
I think there should always be an independent body conduct any investigations into police conduct. It could be state investigators, or someone from the Department of Justice or whatever. Leaving a police department to investigate within it’s own department is foolish. Akin, I think, to placing a criminal defendant’s lawyer in charge of the prosecution.
@Darth_Algar again we agree on something, I find it unsettling that the RCMP investigates themselves whenever there seems to be a case of misconduct, IT really should be an independent body that answers to a higher level than the police.
In the US, the criminal investigation is done by the prosecuting attorney.
In Ferguson Missouri they were calling for the prosecutor to step aside, which sounds plausible to me. However, I heard an interview with the prosecutor on the radio, and he basically said, “Why? Because the prosecutor and police rely on each other’s support? So who are you going to appoint? Another prosecutor from a different area? And they will not have the same relationship with police? The same potential conflict? Or are you going to appoint someone unfamiliar with the legal investigative process? How will that be prosecuted? I find that honest cops want dishonest cops taken care of.”
I personally found his argument compelling. He’s been the prosecutor there for, like, 20 years with no former issues, and now he suddenly isn’t good enough? It is an elected position.
That said, I think my locally elected prosecutor is a worthless piece of spit, based on a jury trial I served on. The problem with radio is you get no sense of eye contact and body language.
@ibstubro
No, the police conduct criminal investigations. The prosecutor only prosecutes the case. And yes, the local prosecutor and local police are, by the very nature of what they do, too close to be relied upon to be objective towards each other. A prosecutor from another area will not have that relationship with the local police. The prosecutor in that interview made an intellectually dishonest argument.
An independent body should always investigate misdeeds or questionable conduct no matter what field or job description.
@Jaxk No Misconduct?? They took the infant as a threat ad threw a flash grenade in the kids crib,think they may have over reacted just a tad?
I am not saying cops have an easy job, and I feel for their family when one is killed in the line of duty, but they have to set an example for the rest of us, and to injure a child while playing Robo cop is not the way and the whole force has to be accountable for it.
And the cops statement we went by the book and would do it again,is freaking terrifying, they horribly fucked up that bust , a child got very badly hurt by their crappy work,and it’s not their fault,really??????
Easy to blame the drug dealer they were after isn’t it?
I am not an expert at law enforcement, but I think with a little surveillance , they might learn who actually was in that house before roaring in like Rambo, and not just going on what some Narc saw the day before. The POLICE HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS,for all our sakes including theirs.
@SQUEEKY2
“The best-laid plans of mice and men / Often go awry” – John Steinbeck
@SQUEEKY2 They didn’t know there were kids in the house. They did NOT deliberately target the baby. It was an accident. Though how they couldn’t know kids were there after watching the house for 3 days is beyond me.
I agree, but then learn from them, and admit mistakes were made, to say we did it by the book and would do it again, is freaking terrifying , maybe time to get a new book.
To say ehh sometimes it doesn’t go like we planned, A little boys life will be forever changed,and not because of some evil drug dealer, but by the incompetence of the Police to do a proper job,think any of those innocent people involved will ever trust a Police officer again?
@Dutchess_III It’s beyond me as well, that is why the need for an independent body to investigate cases such as this, listening to the cops they already believe they did nothing wrong,case closed, UH NO, something went VERY wrong with this one, case NOT closed.
Like I said before the job the Police do isn’t easy, but they MUST set an example.
NOT run in playing Rambo and Robo cop.
@Jaxk
And a man, when his plans go astray, owns up to his mistakes. Only a coward tries to avoid responsibility for his fuck ups.
^^ So unless these guys commit Seppuku, they are girly-men??
Yup, that’s exactly what I said.
Where did you get that from what we were talking about @Jaxk ?
This group of cops screwed this bust big time,A little kid got really hurt and they claim they did nothing wrong and followed the book,really??
All @Darth_Algar was saying that if you screw up admit it and learn from it, only cowards avoid responsibility for their fuck ups, and you come back with they should commit Seppuku. Guess law officials never have to say we screwed up.
Think any of those innocent people involved in this raid will trust a cop again,I sure as hell wouldn’t.
I think we’re going to see more and more instances of police brutality and atrocities like happened to this family with the injured baby. We are looking at the face of our future. Get used to it folks.
@snowberry why do you say that,because the Police don’t have to be accountable to anyone or what?
This is a huge reason for an independent body investigating the Police and their misconduct and holding them accountable,or I’m afraid your right and it is the future.
Since when is ”Obvious police misconduct” not a criminal matter, @Darth_Algar? In Missouri a grand jury investigates and decides whether to bring charges. The grand jury is generally considered a pawn of the prosecutor, as almost anything the prosecutor is willing to push for will be indicted.
Background.
“Grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public; grand jurors are not allowed to discuss any of the evidence they hear outside of the grand jury. The prosecutor has full discretion in determining what evidence the grand jury will hear, and there is no duty to present defenses or cross-examination of witnesses. If nine of the 12 grand jurors vote for an indictment, the case moves forward to trial.”
Yup. A grand jury decides whether or not to press charges. You’re absolutely correct about that. I’ve served on a grand jury myself, so I’ve been involved in the process first hand. And at no point did that process involve investigating the case ourselves. The police conduct the investigation. Once the investigation is finished the evidence is given to the prosecutor. The prosecutor presents the evidence to the grand jury. The grand jury weighs the evidence and decides if there’s enough to bring charges. The investigation and the prosecution/grand jury are entirely separate things. Not sure why you’re conflating the two because this really isn’t hard to understand.
@SQUEEKY2 It’s the direction this country has been heading for some time. The very fact that these people said they did nothing wrong, and would do it again without any outcry from anyone other than the common man indicates a huge shift in politics from say, 30, 20, or even 10 years ago.
By the way, the tactics these police used are pretty much the way things look and feel when the US attacks a country, only now we are the enemy. Life is cheap, and getting cheaper it seems.
The U.S. Attorneys Manual states that prosecutors “must recognize that the grand jury is an independent body, whose functions include not only the investigation of crime and the initiation of criminal prosecution but also the protection of the citizenry from unfounded criminal charges…”
I don’t know what you’re missing, @Darth_Algar, as the case in Ferguson Missouri is still under investigation, with a grand jury impaneled. None of the facts of the case have been released.
Jesus fucking Christ…....
Highly analytical, @Darth_Algar.
But. of course, you’re winning the all important Fluther lurve race!
Rather than cherry-picking Googled quotes you think help your argument and posting them with no context use your head and think for a moment.
- If the grand jury conducts criminal investigations then what do you think police detectives do? What roll do the police play at all if it’s the grand jury that’s conducting the investigation?
- How, exactly, do you think the grand jury conducts criminal investigations from the jury box in the courtroom?
- What do you think qualifies the members of the grand jury (who, mind you, are laypersons selected at random from registered voter rolls) to conduct investigations?
- If the grand jury conducts the investigation then why is there any need for the grand jury to be presented the evidence to consider if charges are warranted? Afterall, if the grand jury has conducted the investigation then they should already be familiar with all evidence gathered and should already know if there’s enough to pursue charges.
Lastly, I could not give a shit less about lurve. If you’re going to carry a petty squabble over from another thread at least make sure you’ve got the right person.
@SQUEEKY2 – Sorry it took me so long to get back to you but I thought I would explain the process nonetheless.
You all seem to have convicted these guys of misconduct based solely on the evidence that something went wrong. I tried to explain that even the best plans can go wrong but that didn’t seem to go anywhere. The police stated that they followed procedures (by the book) and nothing in the article nor in any of the postings showed where they did not. @Darth_Algar indicated that they should admit to mistakes anyway. Basically they should fall on their sword or else they are not real men. Commit Seppuku or be Girly-men. Did you see it differently?
@Jaxk
One can follow procedure and still fuck up. Rather than “fuck y’all, we didn’t do shit wrong”, an honest “we fucked up and would like to see what we can do to help this child who’s been irrevocably damaged by our sloppiness” would a nice step towards not being cowards.
@Darth_Algar – If changing their procedures is the fix, it would indicate that the police followed the existing procedures. If the police followed procedures (by the book), there was no misconduct.
Maybe we’re having some difficulty with the definition of Misconduct:
“1.Behavior not conforming to prevailing standards or laws; impropriety”{
With about 14 million arrests per year, it is likely that something will go wrong occasionally without misconduct. Of course if you hate the police, you’re likely to see misconduct where no misconduct actually exists.
He isn’t talking about “changing the procedures.” He’s talking about taking responsibility when those procedures go horribly wrong.
@Jaxk
I think the only difficulty here is in your reading. I already stated that one can follow procedure and still fuck up. Humans aren’t free from mistakes even if they’re going by the book. It find it funny that you’re now arguing with the same essential stance that you yourself expressed agreement with earlier in this thread.
@Darth_Algar Interesting. I’m not sure what stance your talking about. I still have no idea if there was any misconduct but nothing in the article cites any. I agree that they should pay medical but that’s quite different than misconduct. Either way, I give up. Investigation is not needed since these guys plead guilty to misconduct. That bypasses the investigation, Grand Jury, and prosecution. Do you have any suggestions on the sentencing for these guys? Are we talking years, decades, or what? Yours is certainly a simple system.
I think misconduct can be accidental. I would consider it misconduct to throw a flash bang in a baby’s play pen and blow up his little face. And to not let the mother get to the child, and instead scream at her to sit down and shut up? That was misconduct.
@Jaxk
There’s two separate issues being discussed in this thread. One is the investigation of police misconduct, which is what the initial post was about. The other issue being discussed is the specific case where the police tossed a flashbang into the baby’s crib, which the initial post did not mention, and someone else brought up. I have engaged in both discussions without conflating the two, and it seems that most others here can distinguish between the two as well. Please try to keep up and do likewise. It makes for much more productive conversations.
Separate issues, huh. Good call.
@ibstubro
Can you not read? Did you not see where I stated I’ve served on the grand jury before (several times in fact, over a period of six months)? You’re making some misguided attempt to explain the process to someone who’s been involved in it first hand, and in doing so you’re also utterly failing to address my points.
I
Can
Read
@Darth_Algar. Can/have YOU?
Open the freaking link. Read. Comment.
@Jaxk OK lets say they followed the (BOOK),but some protocol somewhere was broken and this youngster got hurt,if they so called followed the book then the bust would have gone down without a hitch, so they either skipped something in the so called book, or GASP!!!
To save their own skin they are lying about following the book, to the letter.
I do believe the cops have a hard job to do, and your right I have convicted these guys, of breaking protocol somewhere .
I would like them to admit they fucked up, and will do whatever it takes to get that kid back on his feet.
@ibstubro
Yes, I read your link. As I said, I’ve been involved in the process. Why you’re trying to feed me information about a process that I have first hand experience with is beyond me. And as I said, you did not address anything in what I posted above.
@Darth_Algar
– If the grand jury conducts criminal investigations then what do you think police detectives do? What roll do the police play at all if it’s the grand jury that’s conducting the investigation?
– How, exactly, do you think the grand jury conducts criminal investigations from the jury box in the courtroom?
The prosecutor will explain the law to the jury and work with them to gather evidence and hear testimony.
- What do you think qualifies the members of the grand jury (who, mind you, are laypersons selected at random from registered voter rolls) to conduct investigations?
Um, it’s a jury
- If the grand jury conducts the investigation then why is there any need for the grand jury to be presented the evidence to consider if charges are warranted? Afterall, if the grand jury has conducted the investigation then they should already be familiar with all evidence gathered and should already know if there’s enough to pursue charges.
Huh? Nonsensical question.
If you have facts or links, please provide them.
I am not trying to feed you information. I’m citing information from well established websites. My two quotes were from 2 entirely different sources, and say nearly exactly the same thing,
So far, all you have, as usual, is Because I say so
Good job. You addressed none of my questions.
So far, all you have, as usual, is Because I say so.
I addressed every one of your questions, and I provided more than one link to the information I used to do so. If you cannot match that standard, you have no argument, other than, as usual, argument for the sake of arguing.
You have not presented a single fact. Only opinion. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but you cannot present it as fact and have it taken seriously.
So tell me, when someone is murdered who are those folks on the scene gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses? Who are those folks tracking down leads and interrogating suspects? Are they members of the grand jury?
No.
I’ve given facts, references, links, @Darth_Algar
Refute, if you are able.
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