Women, how would you feel if a man walked into a woman's restroom because he identified as a woman?

It doesn’t concern me. I think they are safer going into the women’s toilets than the men’s to be honest.

I would be fine with that.

The separation of toilets seems weird to me, anyway.

I don’t sweat small shit. If there are closed stalls, I don’t care and as said above, if it is safer or more comfortable for them, that’s fine. (Isn’t to say I wouldn’t do a double take initially.)

I’d feel sorry for him, but sorrier for me, especially if I really had to go at the time. Makes me think I need to start carrying pepper spray into the bathroom with me for just in case…. (And if I had to use that thing in a confined place? Oh mercy!)

I’ve seriously thought about starting to wear Depends when I go out so I won’t have to use a public toilet. Might be safest.

And to add to the drama, how about if my little granddaughter really had to go and I was detained somewhere? That would be TOTALLY NOT OK with me. Never Never ever

But how do we know he really identifies as a woman, and isn’t a lurking rapist?

Does anyone believe rapists are deterred by a sign saying “Lady’s”?

@Dutchess_III Exactly. We don’t. Nobody knows, except the guy…

Fine

I wouldn’t care. Not sure why I would.

Also, what @longgone said.

OMG you people! If a man identifies as a woman, he is not going to look like every other man. Most likely he would have some sort of visible femininity.
Second and most importantly…..you think men are the only gender who rape?

^ Your second point is spot-on, but this confuses me:

“If a man identifies as a woman, he is not going to look like every other man.”

Why not?

@longgone If s/he identifies as a woman why would s/he dress like a typical man? That makes no sense. I would imagine s/he would dress as feminine as possible depending on the situation and circumstances. Normally I would use the “she” pronoun, but in this instance I S/he’d it to try and help with confusion.

A person who identifies as a woman is a woman, to me, not a “man who identifies as a woman”. Some transgender people will express their gender as female (“passing” as female) and others will not overtly change their gender expression; that does not make them any less of a woman—to me.

Transgender and gender non-conforming people are attacked (as in physically or verbally assaulted) in restrooms for being perceived to be in the “wrong” restroom. Whose safety is more important? Why does one side get privilege to determine the arrangement over the other?

Let’s face it folks: There are plenty of nut case predators out there who wouldn’t pass up an opportunity like this once it catches on. It’s only a matter of time IMO.

It’s cool with me.

I wouldn’t be bothered, I use men restrooms on occasion and I don’t identify as a man, just the easiest opportunity to go. haha

@Dutchess_III “But how do we know he really identifies as a woman, and isn’t a lurking rapist?”

How do you know one of the other cisgendered women in there isn’t a lurking rapist? Female on female rape does occur.

Don’t you people know that an unknown person that possesses a penis should always be regarded as a potential rapist? All women are completely non-violent by nature and all men are creeps, duh!~

How do you know that I am not a peeping Polly when I use the mens room? lol

What @livelaughlove21 said. What a world view. Also, expecting men to be violent is a huge part of the problem.

@anniereborn I agree with @muppetish there, but you’re right in that many men do change their appearance, of course.

It’s just a bathroom. I don’t care who uses it.

I don’t care. If a rapist wants to find prey in a restroom they can just walk in anyway.

Wouldn’t faze me a bit, I would probably start a convo & express admiration for the person for being true to themself.

Welll….clearly a ladies room would be the best place to find, well, ladies. haha

As far as rapists go, all of us, at least once in our lives have probably walked by a sexual criminal. Pedohile, rapist, wtv, man OR woman. Cold logic considering, in that case what difference does it make where in public the sexual predator is? They’re not going to start raping you in the can at fuckin Burger King’s.
Also while random rape does occur, in most cases it happens between people who know each other, and behind closed doors.

@Symbeline

Indeed. I believe it’s something like 75% of rape victims know their attacker.

Does this really happen? Or is this a made up situation for discussion?

Whether the guy identifies as a woman or not, I’m assuming that he still has the physical male equipment. Which means that – regardless of gender identity – he still can use a urinal pretty efficiently.

I see bathroom use as a hardware function – pee -> urinal or toilet—> sewer. You use the proper room for the equipment you have.

I think that most of the answers here are gratuitous in that they’re getting also psycho-drama-ish, when the fundamental issue is the equipment.

@elbanditoroso It is actually an increasingly real question as transgender people and issues are coming more to the fore. I work at a college where this has been discussed. For the main, the solution is often to provide unisex single user toilets if at all feasible.

I bet unisex toilets become increasingly common too.

I Guess I just don’t get the LGBT= rape mentality. So straight rapists would play gay to hear women pee? wth?

@KNOWITALL Seems pretty farfetched to me too. (Just a side note and not pertaining to rape but transgender does not mean gay necessarily.)

If she was dressed as a woman, I doubt I’d notice. If I did (and I’m not the most visually observant person), I might look twice but really, it wouldn’t bother me. Could the person be a rapist? Sure. I guess so. I’d suspect they just want to use the loo though and since they identify as a woman, don’t want to use the gents, which as someone else has pointed out, would be less safe than the ladies.

I would be uncomfortable, but not so much for myself as for younger persons who might come in and be confused. I once went into a public restroom which had a sign up it was being cleaned. I had to go and had already dashed through a long distance of the mall to reach that one. I would not make it further. There was a man who clearly identifies as a man inside doing routine stocking and cleaning. As I made my way to a stall, I called out he could finish his work, or take a break for two minutes, but I had to go, now. As the door slammed shut I heard him quickly shuffle out. I learned as I left he didn’t speak English. Well, I suppose he understood frantic woman fluently. I felt that being embarrassed inwith one man being in the ladies was far less than having soiled clothing apparent to everyone at the mall, parking lot, and anywhere on my way home.
With an enclosed stall, I don’t feel entirely vulnerable. I would only feel bothered by someone who made an effort to view me or others. That poor janitor didn’t, and neither would men who “identify” as a woman, but we don’t have any way of knowing who is feeling female, and who is dressing a certain way to victimize people. There are men who would role play to catch a view if they knew they could get away with it. I see places now sometimes where there is a male, female, and “family” or unisex option. I think that is the way to go with places that see a large volume of people needing public facilities.

@Here2_4

Why would a young person be confused? They’re not exactly going to be inspecting the trans-woman’s privates. All they’re going to see is just another woman using the women’s restroom.

I would probably think to myself holy crap I must have walked into the men’s room by mistake.

@Janbb You’re right, I mis-spoke in frustration. :)

Get serious. Many men, who identify female, feel a whole lot more female than they look. I have a daughter. I have two sons. At various times in the past I had to explain to my kids that sometimes men wearing a dress and make up is a joke, and sometimes it is a way of life. Little girls don’t understand the risks lurking around them, and have to be taught, with repeated warnings. To then have someone who very obviously looks male enter a female only zone is, yes, confusing, baffling, even frightening, no matter how innocent that person’s motives.
I should think an alternative with more privacy would also help that gender neutral person feel more comfortable, not dealing with stares, or rude comments.

First of all, who is going to rape anyone with a line of women as witnesses, and possible vengeful outraged rescuers. Next, those ladies bathrooms have nothing but stalls. How does one determine who is or is not a woman?

@HERE24 why not just ‘he likes to wear dresses’, kids don’t judge they just are curious.

@Here2_4

You’ve “had to explain”? Do your kids walk around randomly asking if this or that dress wearing person is a boy or a girl?

I’m finding that kids and young people lead the way in acceptance of differences these days.

@stanleybmanly You are assuming that all ladies’ rooms are crowded. That’s is certainly NOT the case. If I were going into a restroom alone in an isolated area (yes folks they really do exist!), YOU BET I’d be concerned if a man- however he was dressed- followed me in, or was already in there when I arrived. Sorry. I simply would. I’ve lived too long and had too many weird experiences to feel trusting in a situation like that.

You people aren’t living in the real world if you think that ladies’ rooms are always crowded or aren’t isolated. Lots of them are.

Like I said, a penis does not have to be visible to know the individual was born with one. Yes, I have had to explain. Yes I have had my kids ask why is that man wearing a dress. At Halloween, or on tv, it may be for comedy. Not every man wearing a dress is all innocent and harmless. I will not risk the safety of my children to sickos because some people think all men in women’s attire is some sweet feminine feeling individual. Yes, men in dresses can be seen by others as men in dresses. Feeling female does not mean someone appears female to others. I have seen “women” with very definate five o’clock shadow. Pull your head out of there. Men in dresses do not always appear to be anything other than men in dresses, and for kids who don’t have those genser issues, it can certainly be confusing.

@snowberry I agree.

@HERE24 i think teaching stranger danger is good, but if a child is LGBT they need to know that’s ok too.

@snowberry You’re right. And this really is a question that I have no business answering.

I’m all for unisex bathrooms. We need more places to pee.

@Here2_4 So all LGBT people should be oppressed so you don’t have to explain the real world to your children? Newsflash: that’s your problem, not theirs.

I don’t think anyone here has said all transgendered people are good people. They’re just people – they can be good and bad, just like everyone else. There’s no reason to be more wary of them than others.

@KNOWITALL “If a child is LGBT…”? So straight kids (as if children have their sexual orientation tattooed on their foreheads) shouldn’t know it’s okay as well? Am I missing something.

@Livelaugh I’m concerned that parents still teach kids that being LGBT is wrong, that is my primary concern here.

Newsflash, my kids came up in a world where LGBT is not the rule all, end all of the human race. Like I said, a dress does not mean the wearer is a woman, nor does a dress make a wearer safe. How does a private facility rate as an inconvenience? I did not suggest pee on the wall in an alley like Adam Sandler. I personally find private facilities a preference. I never said I taught my children to fear anyone for their gender orientation, or lack thereof. I am saying there are many different colored flags out there, and who flies some of those flags are dangerous, and to be avoided. You are attacking me for educating my children regarding who is safe and who is not safe. A man walking into a bathroom dressed as a woman can not be automatically assumed they are not a threat. Children have to be taught to not trust strangers. Children have to be taught who is safe to talk to Children have to be taught to understand what is different about someone else could mean they are dangerous, or could mean they live a different culture. I am more and more offended though, by people who say I am supposed to be understanding, supportive, and accepting, and then behave so close minded as to think their way of life is all that matters.
You are speaking with the voice of a bigot, if you assume a man in a dress is some oppressed innocent victim of societies values and laws. If men want to wear dresses, bras, make up, I don’t care. As has been stated, not all predators are men. Not all crossdressers are gay. Not all men in dresses are harmless. How does that translate to I teach my kids to hate men in dresses?
,

Why are so many people here assuming that in order for someone with a penis to feel like a woman, it means they’re going to be in a dress? I’m a woman and I don’t even own a dress…

I was just about to add that dresses was being a figure of speech for me, and that a nice sweater and slacks can also be viewed as feminine and lovely.. You beat me to it.

@DrasticDreamer, some go out of their way to be what is stereotypically female. Some act more like a woman than women do! I asked a question about this once. Don’t remember if it was here or on Wis.dm.

No big deal.

@Here2_4

Honestly, the more you post here the more it reads like your own bigotry shining through rather than any rational thought process.

So you’ve seen some transgenders that still look masculine. So what? I’ve seen some cisgender women who look rather masculine as well. And some cisgender male who look a bit feminine. Again, so what? If they’re not harassing you or your kids then why do you care?

You guys, I don’t think you’re hearing @Here2_4. When Fluther attacks.

You keep harranging me about it I am wanting to know why you are tryin to shove LGBT down my throat. How does not living the life myself make me a bigot? How? What do you not get about NOT EVERY MAN IN A DRESS IS HARMLESS, OR LGBT? i have not said even once or closely to once that a man is dangerous BECAUSE he weraqrs a dress. I have NOT said that. I have said that you can not count on any stranger being a safe, gentle person. I have saifd not all men in dresses are to be trusted as okay. How is that making me a bigot?

@Here2_4 Go easy. Don’t let them get to you.
And a holes, lay off Here2_4.

<3 You are too sweet, @Adirondackwannabe , and @Dutchess_III , thank you for reading my words instead of trying to find something under or between them.

No problem.

I think those of us who have been on the receiving end of When Fluther Attacks are more sympathetic when Fluther starts twisting people’s shit around.

@Here2_4 has a good point. It isn’t safe to assume a certain group of people are ALL safe. We already discussed this to death in the “Can you imagine what it’s like to be wary of all men in public.” For women, if you don’t know a guy, it’s safest to err on the side of caution.

@Here2_4

Shoving it down your throat? You’re choosing to post here. Nobody is shoving a thing down your throat. And I don’t see anything whatsoever indicating that “all men in a dress are harmless”. Transgender people are people, nothing more nothing less. And like every other group some are good, some are not. However from your posts you seem to be assuming (and likewise teaching your children) that transgender = pedophile and/or rapist.

Flame off guys.

Not true at all @Darth_Algar You read it all wrong.

Let me clarify. When I used to go out dancing in my teens the club I went to often had a lot of drag queens. We girls went the bathroom in pairs knowing “men” were in there a lot.

I have been in bathrooms where men have come in with their young daughters, because bringing them into the men’s room would be understandably weird.

My husband had to come in public bathrooms with me on our way home when I had my accident. I could not go to the bathroom myself.

If a person identifies as a woman and goes to the woman’s restroom and does nothing to make me feel uncomfortable it’s fine with me. We girls don’t pee out in the open, we are in stalls.

[Mod says] – Flames off, please. People are going to have differing opinions, and people aren’t always going to interpret someone else’s comments the way the author intended. Please remember to “disagree without being disagreeable”.

^^^ Well said, I was involved in a game of twister yesterday, gah, maddening.

I’m fine with that. If they identify as a woman, who am I to judge and tell them that they’re not one?

@DrasticDreamer “Why are so many people here assuming that in order for someone with a penis to feel like a woman, it means they’re going to be in a dress? I’m a woman and I don’t even own a dress…”

^ This. I’m not convinced that most of the people posting on this thread would even notice if a transgendered person who identified as a woman used the ladies’ room.

@dappled_leaves Good point.

So long as she doesn’t piss on the seat, right girls? tumbleweed

Lmao XD

Hmmm I feel like I just watched this whole discussion on South Park a few weeks ago…..

Lorde lorde lorde…...

That would be a good question…“Can you usually tell that a man is dressing like a woman, even if s/he is exceptionally good looking?”
I can. It’s the forearms that give them away.

@Dutchess_III “I can. It’s the forearms that give them away.”

How do the forearms give it away?

The musculature. The muscles and tendons are more clearly defined in men.

I agree, most of the time one can just tell, whether it is arms, face, certain features that are masculine, voice. I used to run into to a guy that dressed as a woman on a regular basis at a particular video store I frequented some years ago.
He didn’t wear makeup and it was only more than obvious she was a he.

We have a transgender guy in my small town. There is no doubt what s/he is! His/her hair is really long and straight. He doesn’t wear make up and he dresses like a guy. I talk with him occasionally. Once s/he told me that he drives a road grader for a living. He made some comment along the lines of “I’m a bitch powering a road grader!”
Rumor has it that s/he was a regular boy-guy growing up and in HS. Popular, foot ball player. Then he got into drugs, really bad. That’s the rumor, anyway.

This person was born male. I’d never know, and neither would any of you if you’re honest with yourselves. There’s nothing masculine about her forearms or face. They don’t all look like this, people.

This person was born female. Check out those forearms. Accuse her of being a dude in a public restroom and she might beat your ass, and I wouldn’t blame her.

Don’t fool yourself into thinking you’ll always be able to tell one way or the other.

@Dutchess_III Surely you know referring to trans people as he/she is incredibly insulting.

No, on that first one, I wouldn’t be able to tell @livelaughlove21.

I don’t know what to call her because she doesn’t seem to know what to call herself, @livelaughlove21.

@Dutchess_III That’s where you’re very wrong. They have decided at great cost what they want to be called. You use the term trans male or trans female and the appropriate pronoun for the gender they have chosen.

I’m acquainted with him, @janbb. He has some issues. He alternates between being limp wristed and simpering, to being very aggressive and angry. It’s like he forgets how to act like a girl sometimes and has to snap back into “role.”
It’s like he thinks that just having really long, unwashed, uncombed, straight, greasy hair and changing his name to “Roxanne,” automatically makes him a female.
In his case, he’s a victim of severe drug abuse.

@livelaughlove21 Of course not, but, it is not that hard to tell in many cases.
Singing…Lolaaaa, lo-lo-lo-lo-loooo-laaaaa
Walks like a woman and talks like a man. I think voice is a dead give away most of the time as well.

There is so much wrong with this thread. I won’t even start.

@Coloma Do you talk to every person you encounter in a public restroom?

The forearms give it away!?!
Who knew Popeye rolled that way?

I gotta be frank, to read some of these comments I have to wonder how much experience with humanity some of you folks have actually had. Some of you sound like you’ve barely seen or interacted with anyone beyond your front porch and thus seem unaware of the vast range of body types and vocal tones that human beings, male and female, come in. Not trying to insult anyone, just making an observation.

We only have one transgendered person in town, and that was Roxanne. I haven’t seen her is long time though. Last time I saw her was about 3 years ago, on the back of a Harley being driven by some rough, tough-looking biker dude. I always felt sorry for her. I can imagine she wasn’t real well received in a small mid-western town.

We have several gay men in town, though. I taught at least 2 gay men at the prison. Don’t know about lesbians.

So no, I haven’t had much experience with LGBT folks.

I wasn’t speaking about LGBT folks, but rather human beings in general. Otherwise I would have stated “LGBT” instead of “humanity”.

Well, I’ve interacted with who I’ve interacted with, then.

@livelaughlove21 Not every person but many. I’m one of those chatty types, I have zero issue with engaging strangers. Some of my best moments are playing with random strangers.
I look for opportunities to engage wherever I go.

So many generalisations. There was a current affairs program on TV last night about transgender children and there is no way I’d have known those kids were transgender without someone telling me. While it might be obvious in some cases, I really doubt it is in most. However, I really don’t see someone needing to use the ladies as being an issue. Some countries have unisex loos! Some shopping centres here have unisex toilets (usually single occupancy situations). You’re just as likely to walk out and find a guy standing there waiting as a woman. I really don’t get why it would be a problem.

If the child is trans as a child, they’ll also provide stuff to block the hormones that, for example, causes a boy’s voice to change and grow facial hair. So it would be harder to tell, even after they grew up.

The program didn’t just interview children. Long and short though, I really don’t get why this is an issue anyway.

@Earthbound_Misfit I agree children would not be as easily identified as some others, of course, I am older now and back in the 70’s and 80’s it was really obvious most of the time and also still considered rather uncommon.

My daughter who lives in Japan tells me that she sees guys who look like women all the time, but they’re not cross dressing. The guys simply like pink sparkly/fluffy stuff. Ha!

Edit: Neither their facial structure nor their hands/arms give them away. It’s just their genetic makeup. Except of course for the pink stuff. That’s just the fashion over there.

I wouldn’t think about it for one second and if there’s a line and I have to go badly I use the men’s.

@trailsillustrated You actually bring up a really good point. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen women using the men’s room because their restroom was too over crowded. It’s funny to me that this is generally seen as perfectly acceptable while the opposite is well…..well, you’ve read the thread lol

I’ve seen the same @trailsillustrated. The ladies’ restroom was out of order. So we stood guard for each other. One of us guarded the men’s restroom while the other went, and so on. It works especially if there aren’t many men wanting to go…

And under similar circumstances, I wouldn’t mind if a man used the ladies’ restroom. Just let us know you’re in there first!

Good observation, @El_Cadejo. It’s happened to me in public restrooms. Doesn’t really bother me – if I’m standing at a urinal there’s not much I can do anyway – but it does pose an interesting question of gender privilege.

@snowberry – you may be more openminded than many of my acquaintance. I worked in one office building where the men’s room was broken for a day, very few women worked on the floor, and the women freaked out that a man would dare want to use their john. So we had to go up to the 4th floor to use the men’s room up there.

Well, that’s just dumb @elbanditoroso!

It’s different when women do it, because men are not afraid of women. Also, it certainly means nothing if it is a single bathroom one for men and one for women, and not multiple stalls in one bathroom. I assume for this Q we are talking about bathrooms with multiple stalls.

Yes, one with multiple stalls. One room / 1 toilet bathrooms I think anyone can use. In fact, I think it’s silly to even designate those bathrooms as “Men” or “Women.” Although the men’s bathrooms tend to be dirty and stinky compared to the women’s, and I don’t know why that is.

@JLeslie “It’s different when women do it”

Of course it is.

Of course it’s different.

Yup.

Well, this is an elucidating discussion.

In a kingdom populated by idiots, the moron shall reign supreme…I fink

Running for dictionary.com…

@Darth_Algar I’m surprised a woman would even dare walk into a men’s bathroom, what with it being full of a bunch of rapists and such – _ – .

That’s exactly what @JLeslie meant when she said, ”It’s different when women do it, because men are not afraid of women. ” Maybe you think we’re being ridiculous, but we aren’t.

I’ve peed in a urinal. So what nobody cared. Got an odd look or two, but I really had to go.

Sounds messy to me!

Does a man have to be afraid of a woman to be uncomfortable with one walking into the men’s restroom? Regardless, afraid or not, why are double standards ok?

@Darth_Algar Equality for all….except when its beneficial to not be equal.

What double standard? There is no double standard. It’s the differences between men and woman. If a woman wants to walk into the men’s multi stall bathroom and take off half her clothes to use the bathroom, that’s on her. She’d be a fool, but oh well.

Perhaps you could clarify what double standard you think you’re seeing?

The double standard is glaringly obvious.

“What double standard”? Are you fucking serious?

So men may feel comfortable walking into a restroom full of women, but women feeling uncomfortable with that is a double standard?

Yes I’m fucking serious @Darth_Algar. Please explain it to me.

Double standard comes from societal expectations. “It’s OK for a man to have as much sex as he wants and that makes him a stud, but if a woman does that she’s a whore.” That’s a double standard.

As a woman I would be uncomfortable with a man walking into my bathroom because of the bad experiences I have had with a few bad men in my life. It’s not a societal expectation that I have to feel uncomfortable.

(*facepalm)

The double standard is in that it’s ok for women to go into a men’s restroom because men “aren’t afraid of women” but it’s not ok for a man to go into a women’s restroom. Frankly I don’t not believe for a moment that you do not understand this. I think you’re just choosing to ignore it.

I never said it was OK for women to go into men’s bathroom. I think they’d be crazy to do it, but whatever trips your trigger.

And her point about men not being afraid of women the way woman are afraid of men is a valid one. It doesn’t create a double standard, that’s just the way it is.

This whole discussion has become ridiculous. I think people can be uncomfortable in a multi-stall toilet when someone of the opposite sex walks in whether they are men or women. However, we have to get over that discomfort in times of necessity and acceptance of trans-people. Many college campuses have unisex multi-stall toilets and showers now.

And single stall toilets should be more available and just marked “Toilet” as they are in many restaurants.

I agree.

The lines are already long enough in the lady’s loo. We have women, children of all sexes (where the hell are their fathers?) and now transgender gentleman in the same real-estate?

My son complains because the men’s bathrooms don’t have baby changing stations.

Huh? I honestly can’t remember the last time I was in a men’s room that did not have a changing station. It’s been several years at least.

I was thinking the same. Unless I’m in some small family owned restaurant or gas station they’ve pretty much all had changing stations.

That’s just what my son said. Could just be the archaic attitude around here.

I’m curious as to what general area you live in.

Midwest.

Well I was kinda looking for something a little less broad. “Midwest” could be anywhere from Ohio to Kansas, Missouri to North Dakota.

Kansas

I thought of this thread yesterday, when I walked into a (lady’s) restroom to find a male attendant in there. No-one even gave him a second glance, except for a few women who struck up a conversation.

@longgone Great point. I hadn’t even thought of that. Often when there is a male janitor they close the women’s bathroom for cleanup and it frustrates me. I don’t care if he is in there cleaning when I use the bathroom.

What if he’s a rapist with a mop? ~

EDIT: Sorry, I’m just teasing! ;)

@longgone Then I’d kick his bucket. lol

I was in a public building a few weeks ago and there was a janitor in the ladies’ bathroom and I was in a hurry and really didn’t feel like walking to a different floor to use the bathroom. I went in and told the guy it didn’t matter to me if he stayed in there while I went. He left anyway. He’d probably get in trouble at work or could be liable if a female accused him of behaving inappropriately, even if the female said it was ok for him to stay in there.

Two little boys came running out of the girls bathroom at the high school today when I was at the school to watch my daughter dance in her recital. They couldn’t have been older than 5.

Future pervs?

I’m joking. ;)