Is the system not designed to keep the poor, poor....(see details)

No.
But some people certainly cost the “system” more money (it is interesting how people describe the interaction between buyers and sellers in a market, a “system”).
Stands to reason they might pay in a little more.
You can now get medical insurance with a pre-existing condition, which is nice, but it is more expensive than if you don’t have one. If you have a poor driving record, you pay more auto insurance. If you smoke, you pay more for life insurance. Etc.

My butler just pulled up in a brand new BMW, i’m paying him too much clearly :)

I leave health care out of it, we(Canada, and most every other industrialized nation on the planet) have had affordable health since I can remember, the states is the last not to have it for it’s citizens and you say it’s the best, can’t figure that one out.
Now why did the bank up their interest when they fell behind?
That really helped them out?
Why did we get such a break on our house insurance, only when they found out we owned it out right?
And for any other of my US friends, to go a bit off topic and not to get you all uptight I AM NOT BAD MOUTHING YOUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
I AM BAD MOUTHING HOW MUCH IT COSTS THE LESS WEALTHY TO ACESS THAT SYSTEM!!!

It’s harder to make good decisions when you don’t have as many options. Poor just means fewer options really.

Your examples are based on risk. Insurance actually keeps rates lower by basing your rates on very specific examples. I know it doesn’t always seem that way, but if they just went with a number to ensure a profit, rates would be higher for just about everyone because they’d count on a worst case scenario. Big insurance companies and banks (basically the same thing) use so much data to determine real rates it’s crazy. I’m not saying greed doesn’t drive those rates, but there’s huge competition and everyone seems to walk a pretty thin line.

So when something changes, your rates change. If that something makes you a bigger risk statistically, rates go up.

Can we flip the question and see if it’s more or less true?

If the system is gamed against anyone. how do people raise their income, savings, or give themselves more options?

Those opportunities tend to have less to do with how much money you have now, and more to do with having information, education, and decisions. I’d argue race, being a woman, or having children are all bigger obstacles than being poor.

Our healthcare system sucks @SQUEEKY2.

I know what you’re saying. You hit hard times and people want to punish you by making you pay more money. Completely insane.

Even our welfare system, which is supposed to “help”, is a trap. You get a minimum wage job, you lose your food stamps and have to start paying your own rent, and there goes your whole check. Plus, you have day care costs on top of that.

I think so, now that I have fallen from financial grace. My Platinum status is now Tin. lol
After years of always making my payments on time, an excellent 800 credit rating, I fell victim to the economy in a trickle down effect starting in 2010.
By 2013 after job loss and failure to find new sustainable employment, blowing through my life saving in about 3 years and running up my credit card to make ends meet, well….when I called my bank of 10 years and asked if I could possibly defer my credit and loan payments for several months they told me the best they could do was to up my payment date by 2 weeks. Fucking seriously!

Needless to say I was forced to default on my debt, and most likely will be filing a chapter 7 at some point. How in the world does losing ones work and falling behind on payments warrant increased interest rates and penalties? If I can’t make my minimum payments how in the hell am I going to make the payments with the increased interest rates and penalties?
At this point, after years of taking pride in my financial status I say fuck it all!

Fuck the “system”, fuck Wells Fargo, just fuck it! lol
We bail out the banks and they call it “restructuring”, well..I am “restructuring” and letting the chips fall where they may. I have played the game for 35+ years, and now I am hiding out and hoping to beat the statute of limitations on my modest ( 17k ) debt which expires in 4 years.
WTF…worst case scenario I get sued and file Bankruptcy.

So much for being a model citizen, taxpayer and perfect consumer. I simply don’t care anymore.
Seriously, I don’t. I’m done with this game and plan on flying under the radar until my debt is discharged.

@Dutchess_III Remember I am not saying your health care system sucks, What I am saying as to what it costs you u.s citizens to access it, SUCKS!!
That is another reason why I scream for a LIVING wage not a minimum wage.
But every conservative out there U.S and Canada screams that will be the death of us all.

Again another sign it is designed to keep the poor impoverished.

Designed or not, that is undeniably the way it is. From payday loan shops through the criminal justice system, from access to healthy food, to “preferred” rates on financing a car, the poor get reamed incessantly. In fact, about the only growth industries left in the country are those directly involved in fleecing the poor. It’s the one category where American innovation reigns unchallenged.

Totally agree @stanleybmanly .
The right scream it aint so,but it is.

@funkdaddy Don’t fool yourself. A lot of what is prosecuted as “crimes” in this country results from the fact that those committing them have figured out that there are few “crimes’ more degrading and punishing than being poor in America.

I might add that for the current system to work, it is NECESSARY that not only the poor take the hit. Though their numbers are rising, they haven’t enough to satisfy the “need” from above. Increasingly as Squeeky and the rest of us are discovering, we in the middle are being called on to “help out” with funneling money to those who can park it offshore.

Here’s your damn link, BTW.

@stanleybmanly again totally right but the right will still deny it till their last breath,after all the poor are poor because they are just plain lazy!
After all there are tons of crappy part time jobs paying a wage so low no one can even pretend to live on it.

@Coloma this happened to me in America : I had a house foreclose, and I didn’t pay any of my credit cards. I went off the grid until after the statute of limitations was up. Then, I got a 30,000$ bill from the irs about the house, and about $1500$ more about credit cards. What happens is that that junk debt buyers will buy the credit card debt and “forgive” it, and the irs deems it as income. They somehow deem income to a foreclosure too. I paid an accountant $1500 to get the 30,000 wiped, then I left the country. So don’t be surprised if in a few years you get some big bills from the irs. Good luck to you I sure have been there.

and I am badmouthing the healthcare system there $120 for an office visit omg

@trailsillustrated It’s what costs to access the states healthcare system, not the system itself they do have a top notch health care system,just to bad so many people can not afford to access it,that is the real crime.
Obama was trying to change that with an affordable health care act, but the Rep/cons were dead against it, and now have more power are going and try to repeal all or as much of it as they can.
Again the system designed to keep the less fortunate impoverished , what gets me is the Right still deny it.

But it isn’t just the states system that keep the poor,poor, it’s just about every industrialized nation,where big money and large corporations call all the shots.

And before any of you right wingers get all bent at what I am saying, NO I don’t expect free hand out to the poor.
What I would like is a living wage, so the lower income earners don’t need Government handouts just to put food on the table after working 40+ hours a week.
I would like big money to stop liying about all the tax they pay and step up and pay they fair share.
And that is just for starts.

The poor only know how to be poor. They are sold on the idea that they have earned credit and then stay on credit forever. And if they do get out of the red, they get lazy and don’t want to work. So, yes, the system is designed to keep the poor, poor, because we need these people to keep going to work.

@Esteban1. You are making very insulting sweeping generalizations.

@trailsillustrated Why didn’t you just file bankruptcy?

@trailsillustrated That’s too bad but Bankruptcy prevents that from happening, or, if you are insolvent.

Most of the examples here seem to be about financing. So an honest question for discussion’s sake.

If someone wants to borrow money to make a purchase how should the fees on that loan be decided?

Rich people are given stuff, and often have lower effective tax rates than middle-class people.

Poor people pay more for everything.

Yeah, @josie, tell me again who is costing us money? I think that those who take more of the subsidies cost the average taxpayer more than the poor people who, while they take some money, get far less of it.

The poor want what the rich have. That’s what leads to their debt. They fake it till they make it on credit and then never get off credit.

@Esteban1 For a lot of people that is so very true.
And the wealthy get more rich every day banking on it.

I do wish you’d stop painting all poor people with the same brush. It’s insulting and shows complete ignorance of a particular situation.
Many of us on Fluther have hit hard times and have fought our way out. I know I did after my divorce in the 90’s. I didn’t bankrupt myself trying to get what rich people have. I wound up bankrupt due to a divorce and an ex (who was in Boeing management until our divorce) who decided to flee the state, leaving me with much of the marital debt (which was pretty substantial given his position at Boing,) and never paid any child support. I worked hard and finally fought my way out after about 5 years.

Maybe some day you’ll find your self in that situation too, @Esteban1,...O wait. You’re going to say all poor people are also stupid or they wouldn’t be poor. Well, I graduated Magna Cum Laude with a degree in Education before my descent really hit bottom. I worked my ass off to get where I am today, which is far from rich, but is at least comfortable and I have some savings. That’s all I really wanted, security, not wealth.

For those of you who believe that bankruptcy is the escape from financial strangulation, the banks took note that too many people were escaping their clutches through use of the bankruptcy laws. Orders went out to the whorehouse on Capitol Hill and the bankruptcy revision act of 2005 was passed then happily signed by GW. The new laws make it extremely difficult as well as expensive to file. They severely limit those eligible for chapter 7, and unless you are demonstrably homeless and living out of a shopping cart, you wind up in chapter 13 where you are compelled to jump through layers of expensive hoops, impossible to negotiate without a lawyer (more money). In other words, if you’re broke, you can’t file for bankruptcy unless you can afford it. How’s that for clever logic? Notice how the banks have seen to it that your government no longer protects you from its bank pimps stripping you bare.

@Dutchess_III I find that those who hold such opinions led a charmed life. They may have worked hard, but they were lucky enough to actually have that hard work pay off. And they rarely ever had any major setbacks (layoffs, major illness, car accident….), at least not at inopportune times. And whenever things got a little tough, they had some sort of safety net. In other words, they never truly struggled.

Right, @jerv. So much shit happened that wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t been poor, and so much shit happened just because it happened. Like, I was hired as the Special Market’s Administrator for Rubbermaid…and 6 months later they transferred my whole depart to Iowa! So there I was again.

Then I went to work as a Customer Service Specialist with Cellular One. 4 years later they sold out to US Cellular and they didn’t have a similar position. They offered to move me 300 miles away to a call center, but my kids were in HS by that time and I didn’t want to uproot them.

One thing my kids brought away from my experience was a helluva hard work ethic.
Both my parents were born into poverty too. Dad went to college and wound up as a high ranking Boeing manager.

It is what it is.

Not all poor people are lazy, ignorant scum.

@Esteban1 The poor may “want what the rich have”, but it is the rich who WIND UP with what the poor USED to have. The poor are in debt because they lack the money to get by and THE RICH WANT THE INTEREST. It isn’t big screen televisions and pimpmobiles that define the expanding ranks of the poor. The number 1 reason today for demotion from the middle class is a medical diagnosis. Hot on the heels of illness in the race to destitution is the disappearance of decent full time work. The dominance of the Mcjob, and the preference of the very banks which rob us for 30 hour a week employees guarantees a bumper crop of poor folks. The truth is that the majority of people in the country are at greater risk of poverty than they probably realize. The risk is palpable and ratcheting up. It is a telling situation in this country that the block of citizens least at risk are codgers my age who “got theirs” in the good old days and are now sheltered from the blizzard by social security and medicare. God help the rest of you.

I think it’s about intelligence & choices. I was born poor so I learned from other, helped other & karma paid me back.

@KNOWITALL Karma? Did you marry a rich man?

So much has changed. My sister started working for Boeing management in the 80’s. They still offered lifetime pensions then. She was grandfathered in. She was one of the last ones.

@KNOWITALL Definitely about choices, but intelligence, not so much. Unless you feel it is intelligent to put the money you can earn ahead of your kids. That was a decision I had to make several times.
And the choices you make seem like the right ones at the time.
If I could go back I’d get my degree in business rather than education. My kids were pre-school at the time, so education, for a single parent, seemed to be a wise choice.

It ain’t about intelligence. It’s increasingly about random chance. There are some very smart people in this country who are struggling, and some incredible dummies who are very well off.

Ive made it a rule to never take advice from poor people and it has never steered me wrong.

@Esteban1 sure, sure and the rich have never lied to the poor, if you buy that one I have this great bridge I would like you to look over to buy.

Taking advice from poor people is like hiring a high school dropout to do your taxes. It’s not a good idea. All you have to do is listen to someone who has paid their dues and follow their lead. Instead people are more incline to listen to the person who thinks positivity cures everything.

Ok, so now all poor people are high school drop outs, even the ones with college degrees? Interesting. Maybe I should just drop this Jackson Hewitt tax course I’m taking so you won’t run the risk that I’ll be the one filing your taxes? I mean, I was really poor for a few years in my adult life.

@Esteban1 That depends a great deal on what sort of advice you’re looking for. If you’re looking for a good hedge fund, your poor friends are of little use, but if you want advice on how to stretch $50 to feed a family of 4 for a week, well you get the picture.

So with all this distraction, is the system designed to keep the poor ,poor???
And let’s not bring up health care.
When the poor struggle and fall behind they are punished by being forced to pay more.
Hence the wealthy get richer off the backs of the poor.

The more I think about it the more problems I think of that the poor have.

Mrs squeaky and I get a reduction in our house insurance because we have the house paid for in full, we never got a break in our house insurance before this.
Again make the poor who don’t have homes paid for pay more,seems pretty unfair to me.

No, the system is not designed to keep the poor, poor. You just don’t seem to understand how banks and insurance work or you expect them to operate to your fantasy.

Home insurance determines your premium based on a number of factors: location, construction type, amount of insurance, credit history, claims history, debt, payment history, amount of revolving credit versus amount of credit in the form of loans, available credit, and monthly account balance. By paying off your mortgage, it shows the insurance company that the possible risk of you filing a claim is lower. That is why they gave you a better deal and that is why someone who is poor is a much greater risk to the business so the rates are higher.

Bank policy is no different. Same answer. Smart business management/policy does not prove that home insurance companies are keeping the poor, poor.

@JJark So the poor are a greater risk, so to deal with them,they have to be charged more than wealthy people who are not a risk to do business with?
OK, but doesn’t that alone prove that the system is designed to keep the poor ,poor?
After all they can’t afford it so by all means charge them more.
The rich who can afford to pay more are less of a risk ,then by all means give it to them for less.
So the wealthy are awarded by having to pay less, and the poor who can’t afford to pay are punished by being poor and thus charged more.COOOL and the system isn’t designed to keep the poor ,poor, neat and about that bridge?

@Squeeky2 – Let’s say you had a history of thousands and thousands of loans to look at and you’ve noticed 10% of people named Bob don’t pay their loans back, so you lose the money you gave them.

You also noticed everyone else pays their loan back in full and on time 99% of the time.

What rate would you loan Bob money at?

I am not saying the Banks don’t have to do it that way, but as for Bob I guess give it to him up the ass because all the other Bobs before him defaulted so you have to make this Bob pay for all the other Bobs.
Thus again make the poor pay,

Now I have to add by making Bob take it up the butt because all the other bobs defaulted,isn’‘t that just creating an environment for this Bob to fail as well?

I think “designed to keep the poor poor” is the wrong way to look at it. It would be more accurate to state that the irresistible force of money bends the system to assure that the rich get richer NO MATTER WHAT. Since its rather clear that the non rich outnumber the wealthy in droves, democracy as a system is extremely hostile to this maxim. The solution—- buy the government. FIRST AND ABOVE ALL, see to it that those governing are dependent on your largesse to remain in power. This is accompanied by the quick elevation of the governing class from any semblance of non wealth in order that their interests coincide with your own. This achieved, the government can be the primary instrument in assuring that the rich get richer. Those with the least resistance (the poor) get squeezed first and hardest. Welfare reform? A euphemism for welfare elimination. But things still are desperate for the rich who can’t get enough so—- devise schemes to deprive the poor of even more. Remove the cap on interest rates charged those most in need. Extend the “punishment” into the lower middle classes and beyond. Tax unemployment and disability benefits, initiate tax cuts for the upper crust. Eiliminate the inheritance tax which falls on the top 5% of the population by convincing the non rich who vote that it is an unfair death tax. Cut the capital gains taxes to benefit those of us who earn our livings from dividends (guess which class reaps those benefits). Deregulate the financial sector in order that the banking gangsters can “shoot craps” with everyone’s money, with the “winnings” steered exclusively to the top. When the inevitable catastrophe arrives, allow the high rollers to walk away with their winnings free from prosecution. Then hand the bill to the non rich to restore the casino to full function, while stating “the country can no longer afford to be so generous with its less well to do.”
Beyond that, stridently insist that the nation’s troubles are due to the freeloading masses, spearheaded by the undeserving poor. And so on, and so forth, ad nauseum.

@SQUEEKY2

So the poor are being kept poor by businesses because businesses don’t operate like charity organizations and don’t take stupid risks that may jeopardize their own company?

You remind me of this link

@JJark Forget about “businesses”. Forget about EVERYTHING, and pay attention to WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING. WHO IS PAYING, WHO GETS PAID!!!!!

@JJark I was going to try and answer but @stanleybmanly came up with a far better answer.
Believe what you must but as far as I see it is designed to keep the poor, poor,

@stanleybmanly

I have no idea what you’re saying or how it is a response to my answer.

@SQUEEKY2

See above.

Business isn’t a charity,so to risk dealing with the poor they must in fact charge them more,I get that.
The wealthy are not a risk to do business with so they are awarded by paying less.
That’s not a design to keep the poor ,poor?
Squeezing the poor for more isn’t a design to keep them poor ,it’s just the cost of doing business ? RIGHT?

I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s easier to make money when you’re poor.

But saying there is some hidden scheme to keep people poor, and the examples of that are financing and insurance, just doesn’t ring true. Those are products people purchase as well to enable them to buy things they want.

There is nothing forcing anyone to finance anything. There isn’t even a preference for financing. Getting credit allows you to buy things now that you want to pay off later.

That’s not a necessity, it’s a choice, and another purchase to enable the first.

Many cultures operate without that type of financing. Some followers of Islam for instance believe it’s a sin to give or accept interest on a loan. So they don’t. Does their system better enable the poor?

Put it this way, if I wanted to start a business, instead of buying a car, and wanted to borrow money, would that be an example of someone keeping me poor?

@Dutchess_III You sic ‘em girl! haha
Really…speaking of ignorance and assumptions. I never carried a balance on my credit cards for decades, had 130K in the bank in 2006 and was flat busted by the end of 2012. Doesn’t take much to plow through your savings when you are unemployed/underemployed over a 3 year period. The number of over 50 people that have lost jobs and been flatlined in this recession are astronomical.

There is a website called ” over 50 and out of work”. The stories are heartbreaking. You don’t rebuild at this stage of the life game. Enter the massive increase in middle aged suicide from this recession.

Up almost 30% in people in their 50’s. I get it, I am living it now after years of solvency and comfortable living within my means.I HATE ass-umptions and they only make an ass out of the ass-umer, not me.

@SQUEEKY2

Wrong. Whatever sob story the poor person tells to explain his poverty or struggle is what keeps/kept him poor. Everything else is reactionary to the initial struggling situation. The same strugglers were not complaining about the “system” when they were not struggling. You’re confusing primary with secondary.

Also, read funksdaddy answer.

@JJark What I’m saying is that the poor are defenseless BECAUSE they are poor. They are preyed upon by ALL aspects of the system, from the prison industrial complex which profits enormously from their existence, to the banks which charge them exorbitantly for the money they borrow. Poverty is not the result of excuses, though that is the popular myth propagated for the gullible by the people who wind up with the money

To which I replied.

So the poor are being kept poor by businesses because businesses don’t operate like charity organizations and don’t take stupid risks that may jeopardize their own company?

Also, read my latest response to squeeky.

@stanleybmanly Geeez I wish I could give you a thousand great answer votes for that, better than I have been getting across.
@JJark I get that companies ARE NOT charities so to take on the risk of doing business with the less fortunate they have to CHARGE them more for that risk.(that is not keeping the poor,poor, that is simply the cost of doing business) gee they are all heart.
The wealthy are not such a risk to do business with,so they get to keep more of their money, again just the cost of doing business. gee again all heart.
Tell yourself whatever you need to sleep at night, after all it’s just the cost of doing business.

Poverty is a trap. The job is in the city. It doesn’t pay enough for you to afford to live in the city. You have to drive to work because there’s no public transportation. There are no jobs where you can afford to live. You scrape by and live from paycheck to paycheck, because you have kids. The car breaks down, because you lack the money to maintain it. What do you do?

@SQUEEKY2

If you understand companies are not charities, then why would you expect them have heart? Heart in business jeopardizes the business and reduces earnings.

20,000 people die everyday from starvation and this upcoming New Year sale, I’m going to spend over $150,000 on a new luxury car. Am I causing these people to starve to death because I could, instead, use the money to feed them?

@Dutchess_III , well, I was inegible for chapter 7, so I did do chapter 13. I probably could have held it together, but for reasons I’ve written about on here , I could not make the payments. So, after squatting in my house for a year, I jammed my Mercedes, noisy and smoking because it hadn’t been serviced in forever, with everything I could fit into it, and drove away.That was it.

@JJark No, however, you could spend 50k on a car and give the rest to charity. 150k on a CAR is obscene, period. I could live for 3 years on 150k, and quite nicely to boot. Hey. everyone is entitled to spend their money as they choose. whatever floats your Mercedes. lol

@stanleybmanly

You’re changing the topic.

Also, bullshit. Check this out link

@Coloma

I could, but we’re not talking about what I could. We’re talking about how responsible I am for the 20,000 people who die everyday from starvation by spending 150k on a luxury car.

It might be obscene to you, but how and what I spend my money on is none of your concern or the publics and I also don’t think it is obscene at all considering what you get with this car. A 50k car is incomparable. How’d you know it was a Merc? Lucky guess.

@JJark Didn’t I say that it was ones own personal choice to spend their money however they see fit? I also said “No”, you are not responsible for the starving 20,000, still one freaking hubcap on your “Merc” could feed a village of 20. haha
No, not a lucky guess, a calculated one. Just a heads up, but you sure aren’t ingratiating yourself here as a newcomer it seems. I’d like to see how you keep showing up without having to change your name to JJerk! oops, too late, forever branded in my brain, welcome J Jerk.

@JJark I thought the topic is poverty. My last answer addressed why the poor inevitably wind up in debt. It has nothing to do with business ultruism. As for that link about bootstrap provisioning for the future, the poor more frequently than not have NO such options. It would be a good idea to remember that the great majority of the poor people in this country are the children of folks perpetually on the edge of disaster.

@Coloma

I know. I was just clarifying for everyone else through you.

What would be the point of withholding how you really think just to gain favor with the crowd? That is a sad state.

@stanleybmanly

If you’re not being paid enough, it doesn’t mean the business is responsible for keeping you down in poverty.

@JJark You don’t have to “gain favor” by being duplicitous just saying jumping into a new scene one might want to not become instantly known as abrasive. Soldier on. :-)

@JJark No it doesn’t mean the business is responsible. If you work at McDonald’s, it’s not accurate to state that McDonald’s is responsible for your poverty. What is accurate is the fact that you will almost CERTAINLY remain poor for the duration of your employment, and more to the point, McDonald’s is counting on your poverty to boost its bottom line.

Ok, but squeeky was arguing that Mcdonald’s is responsible, or in his case, the insurance company and the bank. That was what I was arguing against.

The rate of birth among poor people is many times greater than everyone else. The reason why there are so many poor children is because our welfare system provides extra funding to parents who have a newborn. It is an incentive. That is a system issue and an individual one (irresponsible behavior).

Yes indeed. Bearing and rearing children is indeed irresponsible of poor folks. But once again , the business model of McDonald’s is BASED on and profits enormously from those very kids. Not only are those kids their guaranteed customers because their parents have Mcjobs and lack the money to dine elsewhere, but they face a future of providing the chain with the impoverished workforce necessary to a profitable business model. The whole scheme rests on poverty.

The point both squeek an I am making is that things are set up in this country to exploit the poor. It isn’t the poor alone who are victimized, but they catch it at every turn. Businesses are there to turn a profit and extract as much money as possible from whomever is available. The real way to get the point across is to state that the less money you have, the further your choices are restricted, and the more likely you are to be exploited because of it.

I don’t know, but when I lived in the us the legions of beggars was just…I don’t have words. People here complain about “dole bludgers’ but I don’t think they’d see conditional health care as humane, or hordes of people living on the streets. I found it very harsh. I sometimes chat with an old American friend who is now a conservative Christian. She thinks socialism is horrible, and that if wages are raised , goods and services will go up as well. Minimum wage here is 16.40$ hr.

I went from a 30k car to a 100k car, back to a 30k car. The 100k car gets more respect than you can imagine but also depreciated 10k in 3 months and needed $2500 in maintenance. I would rather drive a lesser car and not deal with worrying about depreciation and maintenance. Do you think poor people worry about depreciation? No, they don’t even worry about paying interest, which is why they are poor.

@Esteban1 You keep lumping simplistic stereotypes on the poor. It’s like saying black people are addicted to watermelon. Poor people as a group aren’t broke because they go into debt buying fancy cars. The 100k car will get you respect from pimps and other drug dealers. Those seeking status from an automobile are either very young or very foolish. It’s a common mistake of the noveau riche and vacuous bimbos to “judge a man by his ride”.

Let’s put it a different way, Is the system designed to exploit the poor?
Do large companies pay them a wage so low they need Government help just to put food on the table after a 40+ hour work week, why yes, and if called upon it the large companies will say they are uneducated or have no skills so they are not worth anymore.
Thus keeping the poor,poor and the rich just keep getting richer.

Do the poor have to pay more when buying a house or insurance, than the wealthy do, of course they do, and if called upon it we the large banks and insurance companies will just say they are a higher risk to do business with, thus the banks and insurance companies make obscene profits from dealing with the poor,thus keeping the poor poor.
But NOOooooo the system isn’t designed to keep the poor poor,after all the poor could just live in the sewers, and just come out to fill large corporations minimum wage could never live off jobs and crawl back in when done for the day.
Now @JJark it is none of our business to say how you spend your $150K for a new car, but did you earn that money doing business with the poor?
The system might not be set up to keep the poor poor, but it does an excellent job at exploiting them.
But please come back and twist it to put the blame all on the poor, after all isn’t that what they are they for ?
To be exploited and make huge profits from?

I certainly agree that many poor are reproducing at rates many times higher than the more educated. I had one child and now that I am a middle aged adult that was wiped out in this depression, well…it is a joke what “benefits” I could qualify for, I checked last year.
I was eligible to receive a whopping $57 a month in food aide and state medical benefits for a lifelong, solvent, taxpaying CITIZEN!!!
I’m SOL being a middle class, middle aged white women with no dependent children. haha

This from our own Auggie.

Poor people are given a chance every year to turn things around for themselves when they receive their tax return. But they don’t, it usually goes toward bills or a new automobile.

@Esteban1 Are you for real? This is the voice of experience speaking here, one who has been on both sides of the financial fence now, from relative riches to rags. If someone needs their tax return to pay bills, or repair a vehicle what “chance” are they forfeiting? lol
The average tax return does not finance a new vehicle.

@Dutchess_III your link just sent us to a sign in page.

@Esteban1 being poor does not = being stupid. Besides, you said the poor are too lazy to work, so how could they get a tax return?

OK, I’ll copy and paste Auggies blog here:

” I’ve been poor, upper middle class, and poor again. What always amazes me is how much more it costs to be poor, overall. Poverty almost forces you to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

When I’m doing well, I can buy bigger packages for better value or stock up on sale items in the grocery store; when I’m poor I must buy only whatever amount I need right now, at whatever price it is right now. You can’t afford to pay $3.00 more in order to ‘save’ $5.00 if you don’t have the 3 bucks, you know?

If you don’t have the money to pay all your bills on time, you incur late fees. Juggling the bills adds a lot of expense, but what choice do you have? You simply do not have enough money at any one time to cover everything. If you’re unlucky enough to end up with your electricity or water turned off due to non-payment, you will not only pay late fees but also a fee to reconnect the service.

When I’m doing well, I have a cushion in my checking account and am never overdrawn; when I’m poor, I sometimes end up overdrawn and must pay a $40.00 bank fee, even if I was only a dollar short. When that happens, there’s an excellent chance that it will keep happening, because I’m now even further in the hole and each new transaction that hits the bank while I’m overdrawn will cost me an additional $40.00. Hard as hell to dig yourself out of this cycle.

When you have a decent car, your only expenses are insurance, gas and regular maintenance. When you have a crappy car, the best you could afford, it will break down regularly, costing you money in two ways: fixing it, and missing work while it’s being fixed. That’s in addition to the insurance and gas (regular maintenance often goes undone, because you can’t afford the $25 oil change.) Hello, being overdrawn again.

If you’re sick, you put off going to the doctor as long as possible. You can’t afford the co-pay (IF you have insurance), the prescription, and the time off work. Of course, this is often disastrous, since you may well end up far sicker in the long run, which will cost even more money.

If you don’t have a car at all, you take public transportation (if you have access to it). If you need to do a big grocery shopping trip, or must go somewhere not served by public transportation, maybe you have good friends with the means and desire to drive you around. If not, you have to take a taxi… one of the most expensive ways to get around!

Being poor often means your credit record is shot. If, God forbid, a major money-sucking event happens and you need to borrow money to survive it, you’ll have to sell your soul to the devil (ie: payday lenders), and pay outrageous interest fees.

In the days before cell phones, if you didn’t have a home phone you had to walk to a payphone and pay for each call. Far less cost-effective than paying for a home phone, but again, you can’t afford to spend money now to save money in the long run.

The poor are literally nickel and dimed, sometimes to death.”

@Esteban1 please enlighten us, except for the new car , what should the poor do with their tax return?

I drove an Aerostar mini van that my ex and I bought new in 1987. By 1995 the AC didn’t work, and neither did the heater. Didn’t have the money to get it fixed. I still drove it, until 1998, when I finally got a job that gave me a little wiggle room for car payments. No AC isn’t really a big deal. I can drive around in 105 heat without much discomfort. But the winters can be brutal here. That was the worst part.

Put it in the bank!! Build up your capital until you find the right investment to grow your money.

@Dutchess_III from Auggies post sure sounds like to me that the poor are exploited at every turn, but the right and our rich friends will no doubt turn it to blame it all on the less fortunate while sitting back making obscene salaries ,and profits off the backs of the poor.
But oh no the system isn’t designed to keep the poor,poor.

@Esteban1 Gee that is great advice but what do they do about rent,heat, water, and electricity,in the mean time?
Oh that’s right they can climb back into the sewers and watch their investments grow.
You really sound like someone who has come from very old money who has no clue what it’s like to really struggle for a living.

It’s called going without. Poor people need to cut up their credit cards and stay home on Friday nights till they’re in the black.

Btw, I’m not a rich kid. I made my money in a five year span.

@Esteban1 getting rid of credit cards and staying home on the weekends is great advice, BUT a lot are just struggling to pay the rent,water, heat, and electricity,what is your advice to those people?
And maybe your not a rich kid but you do sound like someone who came from a family that never really had to struggle.

Keep cutting back till you no longer have more than you can afford. I once saved 5k in two months making $20 an hour under the table.

What are we supposed to “go without?” Going without heat when it’s -10? Go without a phone so the people you applied for a job with can’t contact you?
I didn’t have credit cards.
I stayed home every weekend.
I drove a car with no heat and no air.
I didn’t have cable. In fact I had no TV at all.
For Christmas my kids got candy and new socks in their stockings. I counted on my parents to provide them with real presents.
I never bought foil.
I didn’t buy trash bags. I used bags from Walmart and Dillions (I know. I should have “gone without” toilet paper, tampons, soap, food, whatever.)

You can’t get “in the black” by magic. You have to have a job that pays over and above what your living expenses are.

I had nothing other than what was necessary to have. Every time I managed to start saving, the business I was working for would change and everyone would lose their jobs. I had to use my savings to stay alive.

You just don’t have a single, solitary clue, @Esteban1. Not a clue. All you have are your prejudices, stereotyping and assumptions. You are so far out in left field. You can’t even imagine what it is like, when you’re single, 4 kids to feed, all by yourself. (Oh, wait. I should have forked over $40,000 for an attorney to go after my ex, who lived 2000 miles away. Right. Can’t afford foil and trash bags, but I can afford an attorney. Another area where the poor get screwed. Justice is served only for those who can afford to buy it.)

It sounds like you just need a new dude.

WTF? I’m not the kind of woman who snatches up random men and brings them into my children’s lives helter skelter to help with the bills. I was on my own, completely, until I met my husband in 2002. Had been divorced, and alone, for 10 years at that point.

Sounds like you just need to get laid. And quickly. Good luck with that.

@Esteban1 you get more offensive with every post.
And while you claim not to be a rich kid, you surely sound like someone who has never really had to struggle for a living a day in their life,and can’t understand why there are poor people in the first place,and if they are poor it must all be their own fault.
Has nothing to do with the system exploiting the shit out of them to grow their own profits to obscene levels!oh no it’s all the poor peoples fault.

I can give you an answer with two simple questions.

When in history has the poverty rate ever been at 0%?
When in the history of man has there been an alternative system with a poverty rate of 0%?

Poor people have and will always be a small % of the population regardless of what type of system.

@grac3alot while I agree with you to a point but that % of poor is growing rapidly due to being exploited to the breaking point by the wealthy.

@grac3alot True, poverty has always been a part of every culture, however, it is not a small percentage anymore. In my county the most poverty stricken are divorced and widowed women over the age of 60. I’m on the cusp of that demographic now.
I just read an article yesterday about the massive increase of homeless children. Not to mention that by 2050 we will be seeing the largest, ever, in the history of humanity, population of senior citizens, many, many of them without a pot to piss in due to the abysmal state of this economy.

It is going to be a senior shit storm of unprecedented proportion.
Too old to work, health issues, age discrimination, no more comfy pension plans, possibly no more social security, families and the state burdened with the insolvent elderly, but hey, lets all live to be 120. haha

Jokes on us!

I’m going to have to disagree with both of you.

The poverty rate in 2012 was 15%. In 2013, that rate dropped to 14.5% despite the increase in immigration and population size.

If you look at the history of the poverty rate going back to 1959, the rate was 23% with a population of 177,829,628. Compare that to now, we’re at a much lower rate (14%) with a much larger population (316 million).

I can only imagine what you guys would say if you lived in 1959 with that higher rate of poverty. 14% is a small percentage.

Or the great depression.

Just looked up some more details.

20% of that 14% poverty rate are children
26% of that 14% poverty rate are immigrants.

Some people can break out of the cycle of being poor and others cannot. My dad’s side of the family are all good with money and my mother’s side are all lazy liberals. Fortunately for me I grew up next door to my dad’s family and learned what to do from them and what not to do from my mom’s side.

I don’t really have anything to add that wasn’t already been well stated by others, but I’m just reminded of a little anecdote – I don’t recall now who it was, but i once saw this famous actor (for some reason Billy Bob Thornton is popping into my head, but I could be mistaken) on some talk show. He was saying how now that he was rich and could afford anything he wanted everybody wanted to give him free stuff, but when he had no money no one ever offered him anything free.

@grac3alot while those figures as you say are small ,how about coming back with one stating how many are on that fine line and face the risk of falling into the poverty class?

So you simply had some good luck that many aren’t give @Esteban1. Sounds like you could count on your dad’s side of the family to bail you out, or help you if you needed. I didn’t have that. My parents lived 2000 miles away, on opposite sides of the coast, from the time I was 20. I they had an inkling of my situation but since I rarely saw them, they didn’t really know how bad it was, and they never offered any support or back up.

You’re lucky and privileged, but it sounds to me like you’re taking all the credit for your lack of poverty, and very arrogantly at that, without considering the lot you were given.

Well….kinda like the little story of saving one animal matters to THAT animal. 14% of whatever population of people is a LOT of people suffering from poverty. I don’t like to assign a number to suffering as if it somehow matters. 14 % of 140,000 is, roughly 20,000 individuals living marginal lives.

In the US alone we’re talking millions of humans barely getting along, not to mention globally.
Statistics don’t mitigate or measure suffering.

@SQUEEKY2

Nothing credible. The sources and articles were not peer-reviewed. One was an AP survey that said 80% of Americans experience economic insecurity at some point in their life, but like I said, it isn’t peer-reviewed. If it were, it would sorta prove you wrong. It is basically telling you that the while the poverty pool will always remain a small %, those in the pool do not remain poor forever. The system doesn’t keep them down for long.

It is similar to the forbes 400 wealthiest list. The millionaires change yearly. They don’t stay on that list forever, but the small % of the rich pool is always there.

@grac3alot while you say 14% is a small number, help me with my math with a population of threehundred million people that makes 42 million poor, for an industrialized nation such as the states that number does seem high to me.

But saying there is only %14 of the population is in poverty ,I guess is nicer than saying there are 42million poor people in the states.
In one of the richest countries on earth.

Sorry about my sloppy posting. I’m babysitting my 1 year old granddaughter for free while her parents work. Just helping them out and glad I’m in a position to do it.

Or it could be that I never had kids, didn’t do drugs, paid cash for everything (except my house which is a 10 year mortgage), and now I’m qualified to tell people how to not be poor.

Gee @Esteban1 The Mrs and I fall under the same category , as you no kids, no drugs, no credit card debt, no vehicle debt. and a house fully paid for, both have full time jobs,and I still don’t think I am qualified on how to tell people not to be poor.
What I have seen through my years is corporations charging the poor more for the same services the wealthy don’t pay as much for, and using the excuse ,they fall under a higher risk clause so they have to be charged more, How is one to climb out from debt under those conditions?

@Esteban1 Well good for you. I too didn’t do drugs, ( unless you consider the occasional cocktail or wee bit of marijuana to make one a drug abuser haha ) was married for 22 years, had one child, was a model citizen, community youth leader, worker, taxpayer and a midlife divorce and the downturn of the economy wiped me out. Just because your life situation is still coming up roses doesn’t make you an expert on all the vast and myriad reasons people can fall from financial grace. It makes you arrogant and narcissistic thinking that if everyone was exactly like YOU they would not ever fall victim to circumstance.

Pffft.

Back to those damaging ass-umptions.
Poverty can happen to anyone, all it takes is job loss, a serious health problem, accident or other unforseen circumstances. Must be nice to be so confident that you will never fall from your ivory tower. Methinks you need a hefty serving of humble pie my friend.

I didn’t do drugs either, [edit, flame off] , and I paid for everything in cash, except the house and the car. When I had my children it was with the assumption that their father and I would be together to raise them. The shit that happened was out of my control.

PS. I don’t have any tattoos, either.

@SQUEEKY2

I don’t care about the semantics of 14% or 42 mil. If you look at the number on its own, then it is a significant number, but it isn’t accurate to derive a level of failure from it. Only a comparison to the greater whole will paint a more significant picture. Logically, if the % of poor was much higher, the country would collapse, or rather, would be severely dysfunctional. That is not the case.

10,000 people died from ebola this year. On its own, it is a significant number, but in comparison to larger, healthier world population, it is insignificant. That is why we’re not all up in panic, wearing mandatory hazmat suits.

@grac3alot But the whole point of my post is that those 42mil, are being exploited to make the rich ,richer and being exploited greatly reduces their chance of climbing out of the poverty hole they find themselves in.
I don’t have an answer to help bring them out of the hole, as I told the other pro rich poster I even understand why banks and insurance companies do it, it doesn’t mean it’s right.
It’s just the cost of doing business and keeping profits high.
So maybe it’s not set up to keep the poor,poor, but it does a damn fine job at exploiting the poor and milking them for all they have, while the wealthy don’t have to pay as much for the same fucking service.

I take that back. I had a credit card. I got a Sears card when I found myself with no stove and no fridge. Was never late with the payments. Then, when I finally landed a decent job I did the math and realized I’d pay less in interest on bank loan than I did on the card. So I took out a loan and paid the card off. Paid the bank loan off too. I had excellent credit (with the exception of the bankruptcy I had filed years earlier.) I could have bought a lot of stuff on that card, but I didn’t. Cheapest stove and fridge I could find. I started that job toward the end of the year. When all was said and done, I grossed $8,000 that year.

Should have bought a used stove and refrigerator. I’d have gone with the used stove even I were making 10x as much as you were.

They didn’t have any. I checked.

Any more bright ideas?

If you read Auggies post above, it’s expensive to be poor. We don’t have the same options as other folks. I didn’t have the savings to buy used outright. Just kept my credit good so I qualified for a card.

I’ve given you enough free advice.

@SQUEEKY2

Fine, but then it goes back to the original answer.

When in history were the poor not exploited?
In history, under what type of system were the poor not exploited?
When in history was the poverty rate at 0%?
In history, under what type of system was the poverty at 0%?

You’re essentially stating what has been obvious to mankind since forever.

And it is all completely useless because you haven’t a clue @Esteban1. Not even a glimmer.

@grac3alot well hasn’t it ,mankind has exploited the less fortunate since the very beginning, just to bad in this day and age we can’t climb out of that little rut.
And we call ourselves civilized what a croc.

@Esteban1 Thank GOD!

You came up blank on the stove issue, didn’t you @Esteban1.

Had you made a better argument I would have responded.

Better argument? That wasn’t an “argument.” It wasn’t a theory. That’s what it was. I needed a stove and fridge. I needed to be able to pay them off in installments since I didn’t have the means to just buy them outright. Options were limited.

Want to know why poor people stay poor? They think they’re entitled to the same convieinces as rich people because this is America.

@Dutchess_III I totally see your point on the fridge and stove thing unless they are barely used you have no idea if they are on the verge of having issues, and in most cases they are no means as efficient as newer ones with their power consumption thus cost you more in the electricity bills.

No, they don’t think that. I didn’t. Since we’re all the same, according to you, @Esteban1, I can argue that no poor people think that since I didn’t.

(It was the first brand new stove and fridge I’d ever had! I was so tickled @SQUEEKY2)!

I guarantee there is a stove and refrigerator on Craigslist for free where both of you live. Getting a new one on credit is more convenient.

And probably on a buy/sell/trade site on FB. Problem was, this was in 1995. No Craigslist, no face book.

And if all I know is how to be poor, (again according to you) how come I’m not poor any more? Neither are my kids, although they were raised in poverty. My oldest has a business degree and is making 75K as a quality assurance manager.

My son and his wife bought their first home earlier this year. It was a foreclosed house. They got it for 65K, it appraises at $125.

My parents were raised in poverty. Why weren’t they poor as adults?

You want pity. That, I can’t explain.

No, I certainly don’t want anyone’s pity. What I want is for you to stop with your clueless stereotyping. It’s stupid. You don’t know anything about it.

@SQUEEKY2 The best part of the whole stove/fridge story? When I bought my house it came with a fridge and a stove, but I took mine out of the rental and stashed them in my new garage. My ex landlord showed up, wanted the stove and fridge for the rental. He actually expected me to give them to him! Hell no. He was an asshole. I sold them to him. For what I had paid for them 4 years earlier! Sweet!

I’ve done my studying and know why people are poor. I can’t help it if some people are in denial.

@Dutchess_III good for you, that’s how its done ,so that fridge and stove served you well and didn’t cost you a thing.
I don’t think you would have had the same results from a free one out of Craigs list.

Oh, that’s funny! You’re talking to some one who has LIVED it, but you’re the expert! I don’t see how me being middle class now, and my kids middle class as well, makes me in denial.

It’s possible to get some hellacious deals for free, but it’s so iffy.

@Esteban1 and I have studied as to the less fortunate get exploited at every turn making it very difficult for them to climb out of the poverty hole that they find themselves in.
I can’t help it if the wealthy are in denial to that as well, as they stuff huge profits, bled from the poor into their pockets.

And even if there are some poor people who actually think they’re entitled to the same “conveniences” as rich people, they certainly don’t receive them. Unless you call food and shelter and medical coverage for their children “conveniences.”

@Esteban1 You’ve done your “studying”, well, let me assure you plenty of very bright and educated people can fall into poverty. This recession has plenty of degreed people on public assistance. PhD’s on food stamps.The NEW face of poverty is about this fucking government, age discrimination, not enough jobs that pay a living wage and let me assure you, from she who has had led a good life up until the economy tanked, never say never.

Screw you and your “studying.”
So you’ve spent your life studying Lions, but have you ever actually come face to face with the king of beasts? It is your reprehensible attitude that merits studying.

People need to learn to recognize when they’re giving attention to one who dwells under bridges.

You go @Coloma!

@Darth_Algar Hah…who is that tripping over my bridge.

Then again, some people are that ignorant. Oh well…not my problem.

Arrogant and privileged are the terms.

From the distance of time, it can happen to anyone. I think @Esteban1 is likely an “internet marketer” or some such that has read too much Ayn Rand, early 20s, and helped an awful lot by mum and dad. I was a board certified dentist and it happened to me. I too was smug in my colonial home in a great neighbourhood, driving my merc, wearing designer clothing. I couldn’t care less about that shite nowadays.

Your probably correct @trailsillustrated and never knew what it was really like to struggle.
(Put all you money in the bank and wait for the right investment, I guess to hell with rent, water ,heat ,and electricity.)

Truly not trying to argue, but this quote from @Dutchess_III jumps out

And if all I know is how to be poor, (again according to you) how come I’m not poor any more? Neither are my kids, although they were raised in poverty. My oldest has a business degree and is making 75K as a quality assurance manager.

My son and his wife bought their first home earlier this year. It was a foreclosed house. They got it for 65K, it appraises at $125.

My parents were raised in poverty. Why weren’t they poor as adults?

Don’t all those people prove that there isn’t a “system” in place keeping the poor, poor? Wasn’t that the original question?

The majority of Americans were or will be hard up for cash at some point, and most will be well off at some point. So with that much mobility, how can there be some larger system that keeps people poor? Why blame something like that?

To be clear, I’m not arguing that it’s easy living without money, or everyone gets what they deserve, or anything else that’s been drug out over and over here. Just that most people have more options and more control than they think and blaming some larger force doesn’t get anything done. Things happen, people recover, and life has ups and downs.

There doesn’t have to be a boogeyman to blame it on.

@funkdaddy “Don’t all those people prove that there isn’t a “system” in place keeping the poor, poor? ”

No more than a winner at a casino proves that the odds aren’t stacked in favor of the house.

@funkdaddy I am not saying people can’t climb out of poverty, but it is harder to do so with being charged more because they are a risk to do business with,where the wealthy for the same damn service doesn’t pay as much.
The poor have fewer options, and fewer choices and what choices the they do have cost more than to those with money.
Again not saying one can’t climb out, but they are beat down on all sides trying to do it.
So I take back is the system designed to keep the poor,poor. HAPPY???
BUT I do stand on while it might not be designed to keep the poor , poor, it does one fuck of a great job exploiting the poor.
And try and tell me that isn’t true as well.

I’ll leave you guys to it then, time for second shift.

For example, when my fridge went out, I used the freezer as a refrigerator. I bought a bag of ice every day for a month so we could still have milk, eggs, butter, etc. After 30 days, it really added up. I finally appealed to my church, and there was a couple who had an old fridge in their garage and they donated it to me.
Then I sold the house, “appliances stay,” and moved to a rental that didn’t have appliances. That’s when I got the Sears card to get a new stove and fridge.

I agree with the basic premise – but I don’t believe in the system having been “designed” by anyone. It is what it is – people like money. That’s the secret. I tell myself I can’t donate more than I do, for example. If we were truly trying to be fair, we’d sell our computers and help the homeless.

@longgone

What’s more fair – selling ones computer for a few bucks (electronics aren’t really worth much on the 2nd hand market) to provide maybe a few meals for one or two homeless persons, or using that computer to to raise funds to provide blankets for homeless?

^ I like that a lot, but you get my point, don’t you?

If we were truly trying to be fair, we’d get off Fluther and use our computers/minds/time to help the homeless.

I don’t doubt that computers and the internet do a lot of good!

^
No, if we were truly trying to be fair we’d be remaking our society, including our concepts of property ownership, to where homelessness is not an issue. As it is there is an estimated 5 vacant houses for every homeless person in the United States. Many of these houses just being left to sit there and fall in.

A case to illustrate my point: a couple of blocks from me there’s this large house (mansion almost) that at some point has been converted into apartments. However it’s now fallen into a state of disrepair due to, essentially, abandonment on the owner’s part. The woman who owns it has not rented any of it in years, does not live in it herself, makes no attempt at maintaining it, and refuses to sell it despite several substantial offers. The house could be put to good use and house several homeless families, but at the rate it’s going it will soon be beyond all possibility of repair.

Personally, I’m of the view that one should not be allowed to own or control property unless one is making use of the property.

That is like saying if you don’t invest, donate, or spend your money, you should not be allowed to keep it. Sometimes the best move is not to do anything, especially when it comes to real estate.The owner might be waiting for the real estate market to bounce back and surge in prices so that they can sell at a much higher price. Also, the homeowner still pays property taxes, house insurance, and utilities for the home.

Besides, how would you enforce that? Who is going to give the large compensation to the homeowner after it has been decided to confiscate his home? Tax payers? Good luck selling that one. You would have to compensate for the initial investment plus the projected potential future profits.

As I said, the owner has had several substantial offers. With the condition the property is in now, however, she will never get what she could have, even if the market recovers to its previous state. There’s just far too much work that needs to be done to it now. Meanwhile, if you want to talk prices, the property, in the state it’s in now, is driving down property values around it.

Again, I’m talking of remaking our society. You’re speaking of society as it is now. I’m of the view that the Earth rightfully belongs to all, and that if you are holding property that you are neither dwelling on or making productive use of then you are depriving someone else of their rightful inheritance.

Well, the whole point of private property is that the person gets to decide what is considered substantial and what is the line beyond repair.Perhaps she is biting her own foot, but that is her business, not the publics. Maybe she knows something you don’t that will benefit her.

I was talking about a remade society as well. You mentioned holding property which implies property rights still exist in this remade society. The same question applies. If the person is holding property, it means they invested money into it. If you confiscate that, you’re depriving the owner of the initial investment and all projected potential future profits. In order to satisfy this “rightful inheritor” and the initial home owner of a now vacant home, you would have to burden society to pay a large compensation to the home owner of the house which is going to be confiscated and given to this “rightful inheritor” as you envision.

What I’m saying is you wouldn’t be able to sell this idea even in a remade society.

What about purchasing rural property to retire or build on? If I get a great deal on land and need some years to build and improve said property what’s wrong with that?
I live on a 10 acre ranch right now, we have gardens, horses, chickens, ducks, geese, donkeys, a stable, another barn, a hay barn & workshop. Are we out of line because we aren’t building cabins for the homeless on the unused parts of the property?

Good point, coloma.

@grac3alot Welcome to fluther, land of the great debate. haha

@grac3alot

Yes, I said “holding”. In my idealized society one would not hold land that the did not use themself.

@Coloma

Tell me, what need do you have of 10 acres of land? Do you require that much space to sustain yourself? Do you farm it to sell the produce? Do you make productive use of it?

@Darth_Algar

Yes. We have competitive show horses, chickens for eggs, gardens for veggies, a pond that attracts wildlife, a cherry ochard, citrus tees, and are planning a large olive orchard. That is the ultimate objective, being relatively self sustaining and selling fruit and olives down the road. Does this meet your approval or are you just full of sour grapes

@Coloma

So if you’re using all the land to raise livestock and/or crops that is putting the land to productive use. Which has kinda been my point all along. If you have it just to have it then that is obscene.

“Sour grapes”? Why? Simply because I question the morality of the current system?

@Darth_Algar I agree to a degree, however, people often buy land to build or retire on or develop in the future. It is not obscene to need to plan ahead or with wanting to live in a peaceful, rural environment, having your own little green acre without farming it to capacity.
It costs a lot of money to develop properties into fairly productive little micro-zones of sustainability, if some people simply want to live rural but not develop a property that doesn’t offend me in the least. Infact, I am all about wild life preservation.

If I could afford to I would be a Ted Turner and buy up 100’s of thousands of acres of wild lands and turn them into wildlife/nature preserves. Do you agree with that?

Can we all agree, if the system isn’t designed to keep the poor,poor,then it does one excellent job at exploiting the poor(because they are a risk to do any kind of business with)making them pay more,thus in fact keeping them poor longer(not saying one can’t climb out of the poverty hole) it’s just they are beat back down at every step by the same people that claim,the system isn’t designed to keep them poor.

Now the wealthy (because they are not a risk to do business with) are rewarded by paying less for the same services the poor have to pay more for(thus keeping them wealthy).
Ok then how about this,IS THE SYSTEM DESIGNED TO KEEP THE RICH, RICH?
While everyone else is fed to the lions?

Oh come on, no one wants to debate my last answer,or does everyone believe it to be spot on?
If it isn’t designed to keep the poor, poor, than maybe it is designed to keep the rich,rich,after all it’s the people with money that get to pay less for services ,that the rest of us without money have to pay more for.
Thus again letting the wealthy keep more of their money.

You can have wealth without money. Money is just created I.O.U.‘s poor people help one another without charging a fee. I believe that the rich became rich by sucking up all of the free services that the poor share with each other for free. Then selling them back to each other at a profit and repeating. By being a dick was how my ex-boss became rich. He sold insurance to his dates after drinks at a bar. Then he made enough to screw over his first employees and repeat. Like getting character development from Fluther profiles and making your own fan fiction from Fluther and Answerbag.