For those who belive in corporal punishment towards children do you think the reverse is the same (Details inside)
Where adults punish senior parents for misbehaving? Sounds creepy doesn’t it?
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If the seniors are “misbehaving” chances are it’s because of dementia and nothing can change their behavior.
Unfortunately some people do try to correct their behavior by constantly correcting them or “explaining” things. My sister did that with Mom. It only frustrates the old folks and makes them cry. My sister used to roll her eyes and shake her head when Mom did something goofy and it made me so angry.
No. Elder abuse and child abuse are the same thing. As @Dutchess_III said, seniors that are combative are usually suffering from some form of dementia. Swatting a 2 year old on the butt is not the same thing as hitting a senior, apples and oranges.
@Dutchess_III: “If the seniors are “misbehaving” chances are it’s because of dementia and nothing can change their behavior.”
I think it would help if you described in what ways it’s different. It sounds like you are making the case that hitting seniors is ineffective, so therefore it’s different. For sake of argument, if I grant you that hitting seniors is ineffective as a method of behavior modification, it would seem that you were claiming that hitting kids is effective. And that is what makes them incomparable. Is this a valid assessment of your argument?
I find this a strange direction to take this corporal punishment direction, as we’ve discussed this before and I seem to recall you rejecting efficacy as the justification for the behavior (in the case of a man hitting his wife). Surely we can’t be evaluating the consequences (practical and ethical) of hitting people based strictly on efficacy. I must be misreading you here.
Maybe you could elaborate on precisely why “isn’t comparable”. Just to be clear, saying that in one case the child is 2 years old, and in the other, the person is 82 years old is not a difference that matters unless and until you make the case why it is.
It’s different because old people can’t help what they are doing, and there is no way, nothing you can do, to modify their behavior.
With little kids you can modify their behavior with consequences and other types of discipline.
That’s how it is different.
^ So it was about efficacy. I am surprised. I would love to reboot the corporal punishment conversation with you some time in light of this discovery. The implications are pretty huge. Seems to be a shift – or at least a clarification.
Wait. I have to go look up ‘efficacy’”
Yes, it is about efficacy.
Why do you think I disciplined my kids if not for efficacy? What other reason would I do it?
@Dutchess_III – If I don’t want to hear my wife blathering on, I could hit her. It would likely shut her up – especially if I threatened her with further hitting. She’d learn that nagging me is not acceptable behavior. If it would work, would that make it ok? Do we do things that work?
Eliminating privacy would be fairly effective at minimizing certain crimes, developing a eugenics program might be successful at raising intelligence rates, slavery was great at production with minimal costs, etc. We don’t decide that something works and then just fold our arms and say we’re done.
Efficacy cannot be sufficient for deciding something such as whether or not to hit people. Right? And back to your original comment (and @Coloma) – it’s really not comparable (apples and oranges)? Why wouldn’t we be able to compare how effective hitting children vs seniors is? Seems reasonable (apples and apples).
I’m not the one who brought up corporal punishment, @hominid, the OP did. I didn’t spank my kids very much, and never hard enough to hurt them. After I learned other techniques in teacher school I ceased spankings altogether.
Speaking of privacy, when my daughter was a teenage she kicked a hole in her bedroom door, so I took the door down!
Took me 3 months to get it fixed. Muhaahahahahaha! She never kicked her door again.
So, if you gave your wife a swat on the butt she’d stop nagging? Really? Or are you talking about hitting as in punching or slapping?
They are equivalent. In both cases, it is the use of force to coerce a desired behaviour from someone who is weaker and not considered to have an equal mental capacity.
Me thinks that if he swatted her jean clad butt she’d just look at him like he was nuts.
For those who belive in corporal punishment towards children
You do know that your intended audience can’t be more than a handful, right?
I don’t believe hitting anyone should be okay, regardless of age or gender.
(unless they are able to give consent and do so of course)
and I came here hoping it was about kids punishing adults for misbehaving… I know that when I was young there were a few adults I wouldn’t have minded spanking for being “naughty”
For the record, I’m not for physically punishing children either.
And I think doing the same thing to parents is terrible as well.
I can’t give a perfect answer, anyway, but I think at least there’re a lot of methods that can replace the corporal ones.
Yes. And yes, it does sound creepy. Just as creepy as making children the only demographic it is okay to hurt.
Any kind of abuse, on any person, of any age, is creepy. Abuse is used to gain or maintain control over another. It is wrong and hurtful to abuse other people. The elderly are not immune to being abused and often are verbally, physically, emotionally abused.
Well..sometimes a well timed slap is necessary for some animals.
.I had to slap my bitchy mare yesterday, she is in heat and was trying to kick the donkeys through the pipe corral fence when I was cleaning her stall. Having a fresh horse spinning around you in a confined area is not good.
I don’t feel one bit bad, she needed to remember her manners.
Considering she outweighs me by oooh, 1,100 lbs. or so. A nice slap on the shoulder straightend her right out, then she got a cookie. Anything that outweighs you by a 1000 lbs. can be slapped without guilt. lol
@wsxwh111 You said, “There are other methods.” My point is, for adults with dementia, there are no methods that can change their behavior. None. And even if there were, corporal punishment would just be stupid. Swat an adult on the butt for dumping out their milk? Just dumb.
I would have to know what the OP means by “senior”... as I do not equate senior with dementia.
I googled senior to get a sense for the various definitions, and I believe the OP is referring to someone “of advanced age” or “an elderly person, especially one who is retired and living on a pension”. Either way, I am not clear that the OP is referring to a person who is incapable of caring for himself or that they are mentally unsound.
Likewise – what do you mean by “punish” and “misbehaving”? Are you slapping your elderly father’s hand off of stove (because due to his diabetic neuropathy or slow mental acuity, he is unaware that his hand is burning)? Are you sitting down with your elderly mother to help her regain emotional control when she is agitated and persevering about needing to go home because her mother needs her to set the table? Or are you spanking your grandfather because you didn’t get as much money for Christmas as you wanted?
Elder abuse is a thing… just as child abuse is a thing. They are both pretty similar, actually, but could have different underlying pathologies. My belief? Hitting children is as (un)acceptable as hitting the elderly.
@Dutchess_III Would you swat a kid’s butt for dumping out their milk?
Not unless they did it on purpose. And actually, with my change of heart I wouldn’t swat them today. I’d just take the milk away. Depending on the rest of their attitude I might put them in time out.
@Cupcake the OP mentioned “Seniors misbehaving.” What exactly do you think he meant by “misbehaving?” How does a grown adult “misbehave?”
@Dutchess_III By refusing medications. Is one example. pulling out an I.V. is another. As senior I mean someone over the age of 65.
Those are signs of dementia or, if they have an IV I assume they are in the hospital. The drugs they administer can cause that behavior. It did in me in 2012. I was pulling out IV’s and stints. And turning them over your knee and administering a swat isn’t going to change anything. They can not help what they are doing.
On the other hand, my grand daughter is here and she keeps sitting on the dog, the German Shepherd who has bad hips. It’s caused Dakota to yelp in pain a couple of times. She wouldn’t bite Zoey, but the kid has got to stop sitting on her. If pulling her off and sternly telling her “No!” doesn’t do the trick, a light swat on her well diapered butt probably would. It’s more for the noise affect which relates to her than for any other reason. It certainly doesn’t hurt. Damn it. I mean, she standing by Dakota. I said, “Don’t sit on Dakota.” Zoey’s looking right at me and with a grin she sits on her. Shear defiance. Yeah, she got a swat.
@Dutchess_III Just for the record I don’t endorse violence of any kind against anyone even men.
@Dutchess_III Those stories, you know…I keep shaking my head. I have quite a bit of experience in dealing with the combination of children and dogs, and have yet to watch any of “my” kids deliberately hurt an animal. I can’t believe “your” kids are less caring. There must be some other difference.
“They can not help what they are doing.”
So, would spanking a middle-aged parent be fine, then? They can overstep boundaries just fine.
She doesn’t recognize that it’s a yelp of pain, @longgone. She wouldn’t understand even if I explained it to her. She just has to know that she can NOT sit on the dog.
No, spanking a middle aged parent would not be fine. It would be ridiculous. If they overstep boundaries then they have to deal with the consequences as the adults they are.
The conversation wasn’t about “middle aged” people. It was about seniors who appear to be displaying symptoms of dementia and behave inappropriately. No discipline of any kind is going to change their behavior, not even a pop on the Depends.
I saw a Mormon description of water boarding an infant on Nancy Grace years ago. Flds cult.
14 months. Here she is with Dakota, who she loves. She sits and talks to her and feeds her crackers. She’s learned to only pet, not pull ears or tails.
Yeah, she’s not old enough to understand the yelp of pain nor to understand that she’s the cause of it. She just needs to not sit on the dog. When Dakota was younger it wasn’t a problem. The babies would try to ride on her, and she’d just stand up and they’d slide right off! Then Dakota would turn around and stick her nose on them like, “You OK? Good.”
^ You seem to have a lovely dog. And a pretty one!
There’s the difference, though – at that age, we would have been in between dog and child at all times, to protect the dog while teaching the child.
I would never consider a child to be acting “defiant” while at the same time recognizing her being too young to understand another being’s pain.
There are a lot of things she recognizes. Her understanding of what is being said to her out-reaches her verbal vocabulary. She knows to stop when someone says “Stop!” or “No!” And she also knows when she is expressly defying that. I mean, you tell her, “No, don’t touch that,” and she tries to quickly lunge for whatever, hoping to beat you to it, that’s defiance.
But to recognize the dog’s yelp is one of pain…how could she possibly know that? Plus Dakota only yelped once yesterday, out of the 5 times that Zoey sat on her so I can understand that she’s not making the connection, even it she DID recognize what the yelp was.
And…since I swatted her diaper, she hasn’t done it again, so fingers crossed.
As far as understanding that they are capable of causing another person pain..I don’t know when that develops. For a while there she was biting and it hurt! She did quit, but IDK if it was because she recognized she was causing pain, or the negative consequences (angry voices) that followed.
@Dutchess_III “I mean, you tell her, ‘No, don’t touch that,’ and she tries to quickly lunge for whatever, hoping to beat you to it, that’s defiance.”
I’ve told lots of kids at that age not do do something, and have never had any of them react like you’re describing. I’m confused. Are you considering this to be normal, has it happened with most of the kids you dealt with?
Are you trying to stop Zoey from sitting on Dakota before she attempts to? Five times in a day seems like a hell of a lot for a dog who’s in pain. Zoey is not with you every day, though, right?
If I recall correctly, even infants experience empathy. They are more likely to cry when hearing a recording of another child crying, for example. We are genetically programmed to connect with people close to us.
I’m convinced surroundings factor in strongly here, though. Highly empathetic parents always seem to have very caring children, in my experience. That’s why I am extremely skeptical of your method, even if it works in the short term. What you have really taught Zoey is that you are willing and able to “attack” her: Like it or not… If it’s made an impact, it’s been an attack to her.
That’s teaching the opposite of empathy, don’t you think?
Some kids do it. Not all. Depends on the kid.
Zoey hasn’t sat on Dakota since she got a swat on her diaper.
Also, I’m sure babies are hard-wired to recognize cries of distress from another primate. Could be a predator warning. I remember when my son was 3 months old, lying on a blanket and his sister started crying down stairs. His little face just crumpled and he started whimpering too. So sad. Sniff.
@longgone I would have to back @Dutchess_III on this one. I’ve had more than a little experience with children, and I have witnessed behavior that can only be referred to as defiant. Most times it seems it is ncuriosity, as in, how far can I push the situation before (Uncle-Granny-Cousin-Sibling-babysitter) does something.
^ I simply would not describe a child’s behaviour as “defiant”. I believe that to be unhelpful. Children are loud, they try new things, they want attention. Of course their actions are going to disturb adults at times. That’s not the child’s goal, it’s just a by-product of learning.
Also, our expectations regarding children are often unrealistic. When’s the last time you have stopped what you were doing at a single “No!” of someone else, without explanation or even a second to consider? How often do you say, “Just a minute”, when someone says your name while you’re busy?
So when I tell Zoey not to sit on the dog because she could hurt her (not even sure if she can understand the reason I gave, but understands perfectly well that I don’t want her to sit on the dog) and turns around and does it again, looking at me…what word would you use to describe the behavior?
That’s a noun. I’m looking for an adjective.
Curious. Playful. Inquisitive. Bouncy. Young.
None of those describe behavior that they already know they shouldn’t do, and that they know they will get in trouble for, but they do it anyway.
Kids can be happy and act happy.
Kids can be sad and act sad.
Kids can be tired and act tired.
A kid can experience every kind of emotion except defiance? That makes no sense.
^ Defiance is not an emotion. It is a pre-judged type of behaviour, defined differently according to who is talking about it.
Tell me this. If Zoey knows she will get into trouble, why is she choosing to do so?
Maybe she isn’t afraid of the trouble she’s going to get in. After I popped her diaper she didn’t do it again for 2 days, then she started again. But she didn’t do it today.
So, give me an example of defiance that doesn’t include deliberate disobedience.
@Dutchess_III
If she is not afraid of the “trouble”, how do you know she considers it “trouble” at all? What is trouble, if not something unpleasant enough to avoid it? Are you saying she knows what YOU are thinking, and should take your feelings into account when planning to hurt a dog? This would mean she can understand
a) that you may care about what happens to another creature
b) that her actions influence your state of emotion
c) that you actually are another person, complete with emotions and plans
…I could go on, but it gets silly. You can’t possibly be attributing that kind of planned, “evil” actions to a baby.
“So, give me an example of defiance that doesn’t include deliberate disobedience.”
Huh? Why? We are not arguing about the definition of defiance…we’re arguing about which behaviours are defined as defiance. Read my post again.
LOL! Defiance isn’t evil, silly girl! It’s a push back against authority.
Apparently the “corporal punishment” I meted out has a time limit and needs to be repeated occasionally. It DID work, but then I guess it wore off.
She never “planned” to hurt the dog. The dog didn’t yelp every single time she sat on her. Just a couple of times, so she probably didn’t have enough experience to make the connection. Don’t know if she would have understood the yelp = pain, either.
It would help me understand your argument if you could provide me with an example of what you consider defiance.
^ Is defiance the opposite of obedience, in your opinion? Which of the two is to be encouraged?
The punishment you applied has a time limit? That seems inconvenient. Does it need to be applied every couple of days? Why do you still say it worked?
Zoey did not plan to hurt the dog, then, we agree on that? That’s good to know. You haven’t answered my question, though. Was she planning to annoy you, understanding that she had the capability to annoy you, you had the capability to be annoyed, and you likely would be in the situation?
We are not arguing about the definition of “defiance”. Yours, as above, works for me. We are arguing about whether defiance is a helpful word when applied to a small child’s actions.
Of course she didn’t plan to hurt the dog! She just likes sitting on her because she’s the right size for a one year old’s chair. When she’s laying down, Dakota is about as tall as the bottom step of our stairs, and Zoes likes sitting on the bottom step of our stairs, too. Plus she loves Dakota, so sitting on her is probably an indication of her affection.
If the swat has a time limit it’s because it was benign, but physical . I was using the noise and the pressure on her behind to associate the two, and it worked for a bit. I don’t know what the memory retention for a 14 month old is. Maybe it would have been longer if the swat had hurt, but it didn’t, and I won’t give her one that will.
What would you suggest I do to stop her from sitting on the dog?
I will re-post my questions before answering yours:
Is defiance the opposite of obedience, in your opinion? Which of the two is to be encouraged?
The punishment you applied has a time limit? That seems inconvenient. Does it need to be applied every couple of days? Why do you still say it worked?
Was Zoey planning to annoy you, understanding that she had the capability to annoy you, you had the capability to be annoyed, and you likely would be in the situation?
If I was in your place, I would not rely on a toddler to keep herself safe. Dogs, no matter how gentle (I’ve already said I admire Dakota for her temperament), have razors in their mouths, and a dog who is in pain is likely to defend himself. He is entitled to, if you won’t! I would be doing two things:
1. Thank Dakota for her patience, give her a huge bone, and keep her away from toddlers unless you are in there with them.
2. Whenever you have the time to do some positive, fun toddler training, sit down with Dakota and Zoey. Show the kid where dogs like to be touched, let her hand out treats. Be glad you have a dog who is good enough to train your kid.
@Dutchess_III Give her her own chair. A special chair only for her.
She has one @talljasperman. She just likes simply sitting in different situations. We keep a sack of potatoes on the floor in a short hall off of the kitchen. Some times she sits on those.
OK, @longgone. I will keep them apart. From now on I will lock Dakota in the bathroom or the bedroom in order to keep them apart.
To answer your question:
1) Defiance could be to opposite of compliance. That’s one way of looking for it. One needs to be encouraged, the other needs to be discouraged. I’m doing both at the same time when I discourage her from sitting on the dog.
2) Swatting her diaper worked for a couple of days. It’s normal for a child to test a situation, to see if the outcome will be the same, especially if it’s something she doesn’t mind too terribly going through again (unlike abuse), even if it isn’t fun. So yes, I’ll probably have to do it again. Maybe a few more times. Her Dad is off all of next week so I won’t have her again for a while. I’ll let you know if it happens again, and if I need to reinforce “NO!” and what the outcome is.
^ Do you think there is a place for defiance? Are children better off learning to always do what they’re told?
As to your training of Zoey: Have you ever considered the science, which almost unanimously describes positive reinforcement as the fastest, easiest, and longest-lasting method of teaching? Yeah, you need to get creative at first, but I actually quite enjoy that part. I’ll provide links if you’re interested, I’m on my phone right now.
You still haven’t answered my third question, but I’m glad to hear you’ll keep Zoey away from possible harm and Dakota pain-free! My old dog has HD too, as you may know. We’ve had some similar issues with unruly young dogs who needed to be taught to play nicely.
Side note: Is there a soft place for Dakota to lie in the bathroom? Locking a geriatric dog in a room with hard floors is not the kindest thing to do, unless she is one of those dogs who choose to lie on hard floors anyway.
Yes, absolutely there is a place for defiance. The Civil Rights movement is a perfect example. But there is a time to not to be defiant, and Micheal Brown is a perfect example of that.
What was the third question? In your post above you only said:
1. Thank Dakota for her patience, give her a huge bone, and keep her away from toddlers unless you are in there with them.
2. Whenever you have the time to do some positive, fun toddler training, sit down with Dakota and Zoey. Show the kid where dogs like to be touched, let her hand out treats. Be glad you have a dog who is good enough to train your kid.
So the twins were here today. They’ll be two at the end of this month. They have never really been around the dogs because we’d just leave the dogs outside when they were here. But it’s really cold so I let them in. They were both pretty scared at first, but after about 30 minutes, after the dogs had calmed down, every one was perfectly comfortable. They were sharing their Wheat Chex with the dogs. Savannah even got comfortable with pushing Dutchess away and saying, “Go!” when Dutchess was bugging her.
But…Savannah sat on Dakota. Kid’s just LOVE sitting on the dog. I went to her and said, “Do not sit on the dog. Her leg is hurt, and you could hurt it more.” I was pointing to Dakota’s hip and repeated “Hurt.”
Savannah leaned over and kissed Dakota’s hip and said “Sorry.”
She didn’t do it again.
I have to admire little kids who can learn not to be afraid of a dog who stands taller than they are! Can you imagine coming face to fact with a dog who is taller than you?!
No, my questions were:
” Is defiance the opposite of obedience, in your opinion? Which of the two is to be encouraged?”
“The punishment you applied has a time limit? That seems inconvenient. Does it need to be applied every couple of days? Why do you still say it worked?”
And, which you have not answered:
“Was Zoey planning to annoy you, understanding that she had the capability to annoy you, you had the capability to be annoyed, and you likely would be in the situation?”
I then added:
“As to your training of Zoey: Have you ever considered the science, which almost unanimously describespositive reinforcement as the fastest, easiest, and longest-lasting method of teaching?”
The example of Savannah is very cute. That’s close to my experience with dogs and kids!
I answered the first two.
As to the third, I don’t know if it was her “plan” to annoy me. She’s one year old. It’s not like I can ask questions to find out what her motivations are. Anyway, whatever her “plan” was, whether it was to annoy me, or to just sit on the dog because she wants to, she will learn to NOT sit on the dog, for the dog’s sake.
As to your final addendum, just how do I give positive reinforcement for her NOT sitting on the dog? Seriously. A concrete, doable example would be welcome. Feed her candy for every second she isn’t sitting on the dog?
And Savannah is a whole year older and is becoming quite verbal. It’s much easier to communicate with her than it is with her one year old cousin.
The technique you are looking for is called “capturing” – capture the good behaviour.
In your case, this would mean rewarding Zoey whenever she is being kind and gentle with Dakota. No, I would not feed candy to a baby. I’d reward her with tickles, grins, a hug, maybe blow a raspberry on her tummy or whirl her around, if she likes that sort of thing. In my experience, making a baby happy is not too hard. Provided both of you are relaxed and you trust each other, which I am assuming is true in your case.
In addition, I would show my shock at her sitting on Dakota, or doing anything else that is dangerous for Zoey or plain unpleasant for the dog. I would not use only words to convey important messages.
If capturing is not your thing, there is something else which would work: You could use positive reinforcement to actively teach Zoey to listen when you say “no”. To do this, you would say the word, and then reward her in the split-second of surprise that follows. This second method has the added bonus of being teachable anywhere, anytime. You don’t even need Dakota around.
How come you are putting “plan” in quotes?
Answer this question 
