If a man identifies as a female, but doesn't go through the physical operations until well after puberty, say 19, then wanted to join pro women's sports, would that seem unfair?
I mean, she has the musculature of a man, which would make her stronger than 99% of the women she is competing against. I know that taking estrogen is part of the course, but what if she didn’t take it so she could retain that edge? Or,what if, on top of that, she started taking steroids to boost her game. Would this be fair?
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Yes, it would be unfair to treat this physically male man as a woman. It’s not so much about how you view yourself as which sex, but how the male testosterone gives men that extra strength and stamina.
What does “fair” mean?
Seriously.
Is it “fair” to have women who spend their whole lives training for an event, to be competing against women who have a real job and only can train on weekends?
The word “fair” seems to be a word chosen the losers in order to complain about why they didn’t win.
@elbanditoroso What? Is it “fair” to have women who spend their whole lives training for an event, to be competing against women who have a real job and only can train on weekends?
Your post wasn’t….I don’t know what to say!
Is it unfair that any athlete might have any kind of size, strength or skill advantage over another?
I’m just gonna give but two words, then i’m outta here…Serena Williams :D
Not if they’re the same sex, @Darth_Algar.
In my scenario, she identifies as a woman, but physically she’s a man in all the important ways. I mean, with all the “identify as” coming up, I imagine this could become an issue.
I mean, would it be fair to have a man competing against women when it came to feats of strength?
I don’t see why not. If there are women who can hang with the men in the strength department then why shouldn’t they compete with the men?
Do they not? I don’t really follow feats of strength competitions, so I don’t really know one way or the other.
Have you ever seen the Olympics? They have men’s divisions and women’s.
Don’t see any women playing pro football or basket ball with the men. If, as you say, there are women who can hang with the men, why don’t they?
I did not say “there are”, I said ”if there are”. You can’t overlook the “if”, it makes a huge difference in the statement. “There are” is declarative. “If there are” is speculative.
Well, there aren’t! If there were they would be playing with the men!
I mean, a super athlete woman could trounce an average guy but she could touch another super athlete male.
You asked my opinion, I gave my opinion (that if, again if, there are women who can compete on the same level then I’d have no problem with them competing along side men). If you simply wanted to assert the rightness of your view then why solicit mine?
Wonder Woman would walk the fucking high jump.
@Darth_Algar don’t go there. Look at the original question! If the girl wanted to compete in professional foot races, and trained and trained and trained like the other girls, what are the chances she’s win? I’m guessing 100%. Let’s assume he was really athletic before the operations and competed in high school and stuff.
I responded to a question you asked me about women competing with men in feats of strength. If you don’t want an answer then don’t ask the question.
As for the original question I’ve seen far too much variation in size, strength, muscular build, athletic ability, etc in both males and females to assume anything of the sort. If it’s a post-op male-to-female I see no reason why she shouldn’t be allowed to compete on the women’s team. It would be no different than the “freakish” woman who stands 6 and a half foot tall and is built like a linebacker.
@Dutchess_III and @kritiper If a post op trans woman wants to compete, she’d be competing against other women, because she will have lost the ability to generate testosterone in the way a man does. And she would be on estrogen hormone therapy.
This was all decided 38 years ago in the case of Dr. Renee Richards.ée_Richards
Why would she lose the ability to generate testosterone?
Also, in the details I suggested that she could opt out of estrogen to keep the edge.
@zenvelo the link sent to to “Ren,” not Dr. Renee Richards.
@Dutchess_III “Why would she lose the ability to generate testosterone?”
You know where testosterone in men comes from, right? (hint, it starts with “test” and ends with “icles”).
@zenvelo But the testosterone produced in the former male body would have already produced the manly proportions and adaptations that give men that edge in strength and stamina that would still give the same edge to a once-man-now-woman altered athlete.
If a person who was born male transitions to female there are so many changes that, it would most certainly be fair. In addition to other things, even just HRT can produce breasts, redistribute body fat and reduce muscle development. That’s just hormone therapy, surgery will definitely produce even more notable changes.
It is not right to have men compete against women in sports. Even if his genitalia have been removed.
Just because a man has his male organs removed and is pumped up with assorted hormones doesn’t change his DNA. Genetically he is still a he and always will be a he.
Be aware that we are not talking about men competing against women. We are talking about women competing against other women. Why is that unfair?
@kritiper, are you telling me that working out when you are a teenager gives one an advantage over others when you are in your twenties? Fitness requires continual development, and the changes in a trans woman’s body far outweigh the benefits of fitness from years before.
I think human rights are a bit more important than “fairness” in sports. Why should she not have the opportunity to be an athlete?
If she’s gone through the surgery as your question states, she would no longer have a penis or testicles, would be on hormones, and would likely not look like, or be as strong as, a male bodybuilder. So what’s the problem?
She’s gone through the surgery after she has developed the male physique and muscle mass, has rejected estrogen in order to keep that edge, and is taking steroids to replace the testosterone her body is no longer producing.
@zenvelo if she does work out continually (as I did, up into my 40’s and was in superb condition) from her teenage years onward, why would it change, except gradually due to age?
@zenvelo No. The testosterone that is released into a man’s body at and after the onset of puberty causes the boy-to-man changes to occur, which any subsequent surgery to change to female sex cannot reverse. What @gondwanalon said is true: “Genetically he is a he and always will be a he.”
What if it was a natural-born woman with elevated levels of testosterone? Should she be allowed to compete with other women? Is that fair?
Yes. Most professional females probably have elevated levels of testosterone, naturally. That’s not to suggest that they are nearly as elevated as a natural-born man’s are.
Rick and I watched a documentary on a rare “condition” where a child is born with superior muscle strength. The can physically do things that other toddlers / babies can’t do because they’re so strong. I would imagine many pro athletes have this “condition.” In fact, I think one of my own grand daughters has this “condition.” She was literally holding her head up the day she was born, and I’m dead serious. She’s been standing on her own since 6 months, walking at 8 or 9 months. She’s just a little tank! This was last summer when she was 7 months old.
Things that people wind up with naturally is different than engineering people for advantages.
And I put the word “condition” in quotation marks, because usually a “condition” has a negative connotation, and I don’t think it’s a negative in this case.
If that’s the case then it sounds as if those females are on a more or less level playing field as the trans woman. What’s the problem then?
So, @kritiper and @gondwanalon, what is your opinion on an intersex individual? Would they get to choose? Or is DNA the only delimiter? A person with intersex may have one cell with XX and another cell with XY. How do you choose which cell you use for gender determination?
They are NOT on a level playing field. A female athlete may have a higher testosterone level than most woman, but she won’t have nearly the same level as a male athlete who has a higher testosterone level than most males.
Same hold true for naturally occurring unusual muscle strength.
@zenvelo Sex change operations do not alter DNA. What you are is what you are. (Unless the sex change occurred before puberty. But your DNA would still ID you as a man or woman, but the adult undeveloped boy would be more like a woman physically.)
@kritiper What would you say to an intersex person who underwent gender selection surgery?
@zenvelo I would say “How long of a prison term are your parents serving since they allowed a sex change operation on you before you were of legal age to decide for yourself?”
@kritiper An intersex person carries cells with XY chromosones and XX chromosones. It’s not a gender change, it’s gender selection.
@Dutchess_III
The post-op woman no long has testosterone in her system. The organs responsible for producing testosterone are no longer present in her body.
But she could take testosterone to enhance her performance.
Certainly she could. As could the other players. That has nothing to do with her specifically.
So you have natural born women taking steroids too. But when my imaginary athlete takes them, the benefits will be greater for her because she has all the masculine muscle mass too.
BTW, there is a question I’ve always wanted to ask but I avoid NSF stuff. Some men are hung up on the size of their penis. They view it as some sort of proof of their masculinity I guess. However, wouldn’t real proof lie in the size of their testicles?
Sure, we can set all sorts of imaginary perimeters we want. The post-op woman is not going to derive greater benefit from PEDs than any other woman would.
@zenvelo Gender selection cannot change what has already taken place before the age of 19, what one was naturally designed to be initially. As far as this question is concerned, you’re putting the cart FAR before the horse!
@zenvelo If someone is born with male and female parts (male and female DNA) then I say God bless them and let them compete in athletic competition as they please. And more power to them.
If they undergo the sex change operation prior to puberty, I would agree 100% @gondwanalon.
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