Why would someone opt to be a "professional student?"?

Is “professional student” different from professional student?

Because they will need that 6 figure salary the PHD will get them so they can pay off their ginormous student loan.

It’s a nice life if one can afford it. Always learning, never having to make a decision, opining on moot subjects. Plus, with each degree one gets a sense of accomplishment without accomplishing anything meaningful to the world.

Because work sucks?

Some segments of our population believe in learning for the sake of learning – pedagogy being its own reward. Intellectual pursuit of knowledge and understanding, unfettered by quotidian demands like rent, jobs, responsibilities.

Why else are there art history majors?

They don’t want to face the real world??

Because they love to learn? What’s wrong with that, as long as they manage to pay the rent somehow?

The person I’m thinking of is 35, lives at home with his Mommy.

Is this wrong in some way?

He has a family to support (everyone living with his mom,) and he keeps coming up with excuses for not graduating. Current excuse is he is one credit away from graduating this May, but opted not to take that credit this current semester, based on some BS reason, and it’s only offered in the spring, so that puts his graduation off until May of 2016.

I’m still confused. How does this affect you?

It’s just a question, @hominid, to get people talking. Why does it have to affect me personally?

Well, then I can’t see why someone wouldn’t want to be a professional student if their circumstances allowed and they were interested in learning. I don’t see “actually working” as having any inherent value, other than a means for making money if money is required. But in this person’s case, it appears that all is well.

In other words I don’t see the progression from student to worker as something valuable in itself. It’s only valuable to those who extract value from it. If I really want to do x, and school is my ticket to x, then school is a means to achieve a job in x. However, if I am really interested in x, and want to learn all I can about x, then arbitrarily assigning a time limit on that pursuit is meaningless.

I’m with @hominid on this one – the professional student and family have somehow figured out how to make their situation work, living with mother and so on.

It’s not for me, or you, or anyone else, to pass judgment on him. A perfect example where minding one’s own business would be appropriate.

As always…Fluther. Have to throw every conversation in the toilet.

And crap on it.

@Dutchess_III: “As always…Fluther. Have to throw every conversation in the toilet.”

:) What did I do?

Ok. I’m sorry. I will try to get more conversation going…

@SQUEEKY2: “They don’t want to face the real world??”

What is the “real world”?

@zenvelo: “Always learning, never having to make a decision, opining on moot subjects. Plus, with each degree one gets a sense of accomplishment without accomplishing anything meaningful to the world.”

It seems that you have some resentment here. I’ll assume you are not talking about the sciences, right? For example, you can be in school doing your doc and post doc work and be doing real research that we all benefit from. My friend’s work throughout school (biochemistry) was spent doing lab research that was vital to autoimmune diseases. This seems far more meaningful than anything I have done while simply working.

@elbanditoroso – Seems like most of us live in a country where passing judgment on others is the national pass time. Greedy bastards that don’t pay their fair share, poor bastards that don’t get their fair share, Don’t get between a woman and her doctor, unless she wants birth control then make someone pay for it. Judgmental seems to be what we are.

@hominid A bit of differentiation. A “professional student” in my mind is simply taking more and more courses to perhaps gain more and more degrees. I would view somebody doing doc and post doc research as not a “professional student” but as a researcher.

A “professional student” in the sciences would be, for instance, someone who gets a MS in Chemistry that goes back to get a BS in Botany because he likes looking at leaves.

@Dutchess_III : You tend to word your questions with a distinct bias as to how you feel, and (apparently) how you want them answered.

I know a lot of people for whom grants and opportunities would be denied, if not for their advanced degrees. Working that degree “around a job” is often not feasible.

@zenvelo – Fair enough. That does seem like an important difference. However, you did mention that the “professional student” (as you now defined) gets to have a “sense of accomplishment without accomplishing anything meaningful to the world”. This makes me think that you believe that there is an alternative. What may this be? Are you suggesting that non-“professional students” are not subject to this same rule? I’m not sure what that statement means.

@hominid Most people gain a sense of accomplishment by earning a degree. And if it is stepping stone to something more, great! But students of any stripe do not accomplish anything as a result of their studies that benefits the world.

They may perform research that helps, they might take part in some extra curricular activities that benefit the community, they might even write the great American novel. But taking another course in Chemistry or higher exponent Differential Equations, or Existential Literature in Translation may be an accomplishment, but does not do much for mankind.

^ Are you implying that people who work/earn a paycheck (non-students) do accomplish things that “benefit the world” or “do much for mankind”?

Well, sure they do @hominid. Not all of them are changing the world, but the next time you buy a phone or take your car to a mechanic, it’s a benefit to you that there are people working there who can help you.
An education is important but not if you don’t ever plan on doing anything with it. It may be important to yourself, but not to any one else.

@hominid I am not a dualistic thinker; it is not a black and white issue that would lead one to say non students accomplish things for society. But tell me what benefit there is to society to someone who goes to school merely to go to school?

On government grants and loans, no less.

Are you implying that people who work/earn a paycheck (non-students) do accomplish things that “benefit the world” or “do much for mankind”?

Uh yeah,take the transport driver for instance, you might think so what, now imagine all transports stop rolling,it would bring the country yours or mine , to it’s knees in the matter of days, so yeah the non students do accomplish things that benefit the world.

But tell me what benefit there is to society to someone who goes to school merely to go to school?
How do you know if they’re not volunteering/working when they’re not in school? Well???

@zenvelo: “But tell me what benefit there is to society to someone who goes to school merely to go to school?”

I didn’t make the claim that there is a benefit to society if someone goes to school merely to go to school. You made the claim that it doesn’t. That implies they are not doing x, which would benefit society. And wrapped into this judgment of someone’s pursuits, you’ve implied that there is a purpose to life – and that is to benefit society. I may or may not agree. But how this relates to people who are no longer in school is beyond me.

@Dutchess_III: “Not all of them are changing the world, but the next time you buy a phone or take your car to a mechanic, it’s a benefit to you that there are people working there who can help you.”
“An education is important but not if you don’t ever plan on doing anything with it. It may be important to yourself, but not to any one else.”

Are making the argument that it is one’s moral obligation to get a job? And what characteristics should this job entail? I really think you and @zenvelo are taking this way too lightly. The implications of what you are saying are huge on many levels (environmentally, ethically, etc). I think it’s fascinating. Maybe you could elaborate on what it is you feel is the responsibility of each human, and how they must fulfill their duty to society.

@SQUEEKY2: “so yeah the non students do accomplish things that benefit the world.”

You couldn’t possibly mean what you are saying. Are we benefiting from global capitalism? Is it more beneficial for the world that my neighbor spend 20 years in school learning or spend 6 years in school learning how to be an investment banker, and then work on wall street for the next 14?

I suppose the same question applies to you. What obligations do humans have to society? When should they start working, and what should they do for work? When can they retire?

I may have missed it, but I’ve yet to see the global prescription for human happiness. Yet, it appears that many here apparently have the solution.

If he has student loans, unless he is enrolled in at least a ½ semester worth of courses he stands a good chance the lender will call in his loan and he will have to start repaying the loans.

I think there is a moral, maybe even an instinctual, obligation to help your society. In more primitive societies, people could die if everyone didn’t do their part.

^ Elaborate. Do you see a large percentage of the working population as meeting this criteria? And does it matter what they do with the money that they make? Do you take more objection to someone spending years in a learning institution or someone who works doing ____ (I don’t even know where to start in what I could fill in here)?

@hominid I think that perhaps you are taking my criticism of people who do nothing but go to school for years on end, with no other long term goal, as carrying some other philosophical implication on the meaning of life and the value of occupation. That is an extrapolation that I cannot agree to.

I am responding to the original question, and maintain my opinion, that someone who merely keeps going to school without some long term goal for using his or her education, is not accomplishing anything meaningful.

I see 100% of the working people making a contribution to society. Can you name one working person who doesn’t?

If there is a valid reason for continuing the eduction, like if they’re going to be a doctor or a physicist, then that’s fine. Assuming they start at 18, they’ll be done at 28.
But if they’re going to school just to be going to school, then yes. I take objection to it.

I just don’t understand why anyone would even do that. Why not get your butt to work and take classes on the side if all you want to do is learn about stuff? I’ve taken some additional classes since I graduated just because I wanted to learn stuff.

I would like to hear his side of the story and what his game plan is after he graduates. Most people have an idea what they would “like” to do after graduating and I think only a minority actually are able to do that right out of the box. I studied Radio TV and Film and wanted to be a TV camera man and do not recall discussing with my career counselor about owning an epoxy adhesives company some day.

Actually, he has a job offer in graphic design at Coca Cola waiting for him when he graduates. Which makes him putting off this last credit even more confusing.

@Dutchess_III: “I see 100% of the working people making a contribution to society. Can you name one working person who doesn’t?”

Yep. Me. I write software. If I didn’t have this job, someone else would be doing it. And if the software didn’t exist, the world would be no worse.

But seriously, I think this is shifting the question. Do we have an obligation to participate in global capitalism and play this whole game, which is unsustainable and not designed to help everyone and is clearly not designed with human happiness and flourishing in mind?

We have an obligation to support ourselves instead of making non spousal others support us.

It doesn’t matter if someone else would be doing it. Whoever IS doing it is making the contribution.

I’m not making much of a contribution, except for providing free child care for my son and his wife, so that makes me feel a little better.

So it’s not the ill-defined “contribution to society”? Rather, it’s just supporting ourselves (which is a minefield that I won’t even touch right now)? The “making” part of your statement makes this so specific a scenario that it’s likely we can’t generalize or discuss this much at all. If I didn’t know any of the details, what would lead me to believe that there was forced support going on here. The original question had to do with people who apparently could afford to be a “professional student”. Now, we’re getting to forced support – and we’ll soon be discussing neglected relationships. The context of extended school is quickly becoming irrelevant to this discussion.

@Dutchess_III “We have an obligation to support ourselves instead of making non spousal others support us.”
If the “non spousal others” are willing, who is to say that it is an unwelcome obligation? I have helped a friend start up a new business. I have helped my kids and my sibs with financial (and other) things.

Perhaps your question is specifically about this one person, then? What families do within their own confines tends to be way more complex as to motivation, obligation, support and coercion than any of us can see from the outside.

@Dutchess_III Not too long ago, an average education was finished at the age of, maybe, fourteen, because kids were expected to work as soon as possible. This is still the case in many parts of the world, of course.

Why is your arbitrary line after the BA, specifically? IMO, the BA offers little more than an insight in many fields.

I agree, and if it was a kid attending college right after high school, going on to get his masters would make more sense than a 35 year who has a family to support.

Everyone I’ve known, outside of lawyers and such, got their masters while employed in jobs they got with their bachelors. (Please note I said, everyone I know.) And the master they choose was tied in to their work in some way,and may not have the the master they would have chosen originally.

I just read all the answers and I think that the OP is making a bunch of assumptions about this person and his motives. Who knows, unless one specifically asked the student these questions, what his motives and plans are, how it’s being paid and why he decided to put off this one credit before graduation. Even if one were to interview the student, they might not get truthful answers to the questions posed.

I agree with @canidmajor. “Perhaps your question is specifically about this one person, then? What families do within their own confines tends to be way more complex as to motivation, obligation, support and coercion than any of us can see from the outside.”

As for why, who cares to spend energy speculation on this person when we could all be incorrect as to the answers. He lives home with his mommy. Maybe his mommy likes the company or the help he gives her. Who knows? He has a job waiting for him when he graduates. Great. He’s getting grants to pay for this all. Great. Lucky him. Maybe he figures there are not many opportunities in life where you can live the life of an academic and yet have it all paid for. Maybe he’s avoiding some responsibility that the rest of us working people have with the mundane schedules of work.

Who knows.

Next!

One possible reason is that the student might be quite good at it, and little else. It seems the only hangup would involve funding. I’ve often wondered about the chances of sheltering yourself in universities for a lifetime. Since student loans are deferred for as long as you remain in school, what’s to prevent you from a lifetime of piling up debt while sheltered by walls of ivy?

@Dutchess_III “Everyone I’ve known, outside of lawyers and such, got their masters while employed in jobs they got with their bachelors.”

That is forbidden in scientific fields. The degree must be one’s first priority, and a full-time job outside of study is out of the question.

Right, but I’m not talking about highly specialized fields. You can put scientists into the “and such” comment.

I’m guessing this person is completing their Masters or a Doctorate? I’m not sure from the thread what level of education they’ve completed so far. What is their goal @Dutchess_III? Have you spoken to them about what they plan to do with these higher degrees when they complete them?

I can say, in my experience, most people studying higher degrees are also doing some work in addition to their study but those completing a doctorate with a scholarship have very strict limitations on how many hours they can work. Universities want their doctorate candidates to focus on their research work. They don’t want work outside their studies taking a priority. However, most PhD candidates I know hold down sessional teaching work (which can be very demanding) and may also do other work connected to the university such as research assistant roles etc. So it’s a bit of a furphy to suggest students completing higher degrees aren’t working. Their work is primarily their research but most of them supplement their fairly basic scholarship with additional teaching/research paid work.

He is 1 credit shy from graduating with his Bachelors, and has a cushy job waiting for when he does graduate.

I understand that a doctorate would be more like that alone is your JOB.

Much of this really does not add up. So far we have a 35 yr old who has a family that still lives at home with his mom and is one credit away from a bachelors degree??? What am I missing here? Plus I am almost 100% positive Coca Cola farms out all their graphic design work to ad agencies and graphic design firms. Most students graduate with a BA or BS by 22 not 35….what gives?

^ I’m not understanding what’s going on here either @Cruiser. @Dutchess_III, when did they start their degree? Have they worked while studying? Why are they 35 and only just finishing a degree? Is this a second degree program they’re completing? Will they work between now and when they can take that final course?

Exactly, @Cruiser. I don’t know what he’s been doing all of this time. He’ll be graduating with a graphic design degree. Don’t know what ad agency he’ll be working for, but supposedly he has a job ready for him with someone.

FYI, I was 32 when I got my bachelors. Ran a daycare full time during the day, went to school at night.

I am sorry in advance @Dutchess_III but none of this adds up in anyway and so far the more you add to the discussion the cloudier it gets. Earlier you said he had a job waiting for him at Coca Cola now you are saying you don’t know what ad agency he will be working for…but I cannot think of any ad agency that would for one hire a graduate fresh out of college to work on one of the largest possible accounts in the world let alone hold a job for a 35 year old who still has to wait another year to finish just a bachelors degree. And if this was the case in any way possible, this “person” you are thinking about would have to be a top notch ass kicking student who excelled at all levels and by your descriptions so far…that IMO just seems wholly implausible on all accounts.

I only know what I have heard. I don’t know super specific details. He could be lying. Your comment about the ad agencies gave me pause. I’ll find out more tomorrow. Maybe there will be an explanation that I missed.
However, I DO know that he is very talented and know beyond a doubt that he has been given various grants over and above what undergrads usually get specifically in their field.

It seems implausible to me that he would come up with an excuse to put off getting his final credit for an entire year (it’s only offered in the spring) which would put off his graduation for a year and a half. That’s what really prompted this question. Why would someone do that?

The whole thing is psychologically confusing to me too. So we’re in the same boat, really.

Perhaps you should ask them, then, instead of opining on here about how they’re such a leech.

Also, keep in mind you started this question with the specific phrase “they choose to go for their Masters. Then their Doctorate. They can spend decades on this endeavor, never actually working”. Which heavily implies that you were, in fact, talking about higher degrees and academics, when it seems now that you very much weren’t. So, frankly, you brought a lot of this flak on yourself.

For the record, I am such a ‘professional student’, by the confines of the original question. I have literally spent “decades on this endeavor…always being a student” I’ve been, as far as academic records go, a full-time student in a college (albeit for six years in a Ph.D. program, but still called a student), for 10 years. I just landed a fellowship which will have me in a training position for an additional three years.

And if you think me working 50–60 hours a week for a ridiculously paltry salary, routinely working 10–12 hour days for the sake of research, and slaving over a bench for the sake of science is “never actually working”, well I hope you never end up at the hospital I work at looking for a blood test done, or benefit from the assays I develop, or the cancer therapies I helped make possible. And that’s not even getting into @hominid‘s entirely valid points

I’m just surprised because I didn’t realize so many people have this question.
SO WHY DON’T YOU GO TO WORK AFTER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?
Bachelor is not enough for us, that’s all.
We feel like we deserve more, and this world need us to make greater contribution, and we can make greater contribution.
Greater the power and talent, greater responsibilities.
And I don’t think human’s science will even move forward without all the Ph.Ds and scientists.

-“What drives you to climbing that mountain(Mount Everest) ?”
-“Because it’s there.”

I just don’t see if you get a chance to see all the knowledge human has ever got in an area and you have a chance to know or create more or make bigger differences or you have a moment when you actually see how yourself change the WHOLE world, even just a little bit, how can you help yourself doing it?

@BhacSsylan brings up a good point. You say he’s going at it for decades, then you now say it’s not been “decades” and that he is now working on his Bachelors. The description of the student is all over the place, full of speculation and probably not accurate.

Seems to me that this is a classic case of gossip mongering & hearsay, a favoured pursuit of cackling witches the world over.

Quit with the Fluther Gang Up. I think we just lost a good user because of this shit.

The question was in general. There are people out there who just go to school. I happen to know someone in particular who seems to want to do this, and I supplied the specifics of HIS situation in the thread, but there are others, in different situations.

The question was “Why do some people seem to want to be a student forever?”

@Dutchess_III I understand your wanting to understand “Why do some people seem to want to be a student forever?” But the thing is, your details contradict your question, and when you clarify, you seem to walk back what you’ve said already.

So, here’s my take on it:

“They get their Bachelors. Instead of trying to land a job with that”
This assumes that everyone should be content to get a Bachelor’s degree at most. As others have said, some of us want more than that – partly out of desire (for our own growth and development as human beings, and because we want to know more), partly out of a feeling of service (because we know we have more to offer than what we could do with a Bachelor’s degree).

“and continuing their education around their job,”
I honestly don’t know that many fields where this is possible. Not in the sciences. Not in many of the arts. Perhaps in the more “technical skills” fields, like accounting. But I would not guess that most graduate students are able to do this, partly because the workload is too heavy, and partly because some fields forbid it outright. I should add that I worked more than full time hours for a company during my Bachelor’s degree, but I had to quit the year before graduating, because otherwise I would not qualify for graduate scholarships. The major funding bodies would not give scholarships to people who were not full-time undergraduate students.

“they choose to go for their Masters. Then their Doctorate.”
This makes it sound like a Masters is the same as a Bachelor’s, just longer. And that a doctorate is the same as the others, just longer. But this is not true. A Master’s degree is qualitatively different from both a Bachelor’s and a doctorate. A doctorate is qualitatively different from both a Bachelor’s and a Master’s. To drastically oversimplify it, in a Bachelor’s degree, you are taught. In a Master’s degree, you learn how to learn. In a doctorate, you learn how to teach. It’s not simply a matter of filling up a vessel with knowledge. It’s learning how to recognize gaps in humanity’s knowledge, and deciding which of those gaps need to be filled and how.

“They can spend decades on this endeavor, never actually working, always being a student.”
If someone is aiming for a doctorate, yes, it will take at least a decade to reach that. They do this in the full expectation that they will get a job afterward. Decades? No, probably not.

The other two things about your question that I want to address are these: (1) A person can be a student, and be working very, very, very hard all the time. They can also be making a living from their work as a student, through scholarships, fellowships, TAships, RAships, and through stipends from their advisors. And yes, also student loans. They may or may not be paid to be a student, but at the graduate level, odds are someone is paying them – though usually not well. This is an investment on the student’s part, in the hope that they will have a good starting salary in their field when they finish. Some of your later comments seem to indicate that work is only work if it’s being compensated by a corporation that is making profit (as I read it). I don’t know where this assumption comes from. It’s not one that anyone in academia shares.

(2) There are people who want to be “in school forever”, whether because they value the process of scholarship more than any other kind of experience, or because they are hiding from different kinds of experience. Some of them are hiding from the economy right now – it looks better on a CV to say “I was in school for 4 years” than it does to say “I couldn’t find a job for 4 years”. I think you are trying to say that your neighbour is like this. But in my experience, this doesn’t apply to the majority of university students, by a longshot. This is why your generalizations are meeting with such resistance and disapproval. If you limit your question to why your neighbour is like this, and give more information about his individual situation, it might be easier to guess (1) whether it is actually so and (2) why he makes that choice.

But as you’ve written your question, details, and follow-up comments, it actually sounds instead as if you are attacking those of us who are pursuing advanced degrees. I am a doctoral candidate. I have been in school for almost the past decade. I do not plan to be “in school forever” and I not only plan to contribute to society once I have a stable job, I am contributing right now, by doing and publishing research, and by teaching undergraduates. I’m just not getting paid very much to do those things.

@Dutchess_III: who was lost? Everyone on this thread is still here…

Prairie Rose. She wasn’t in on this thread. She was really nice…which is probably why she couldn’t make it here.

Question, @Dutchess_III. Do you believe I or @dappled_leaves, as people finishing up our doctorates, are ‘actually working’? Honest question.

Absolutely you’re working, and you have a specific reason why you’re doing it, and you will begin to apply the degree upon graduation. Can I ask what you’re getting your doctorate in?

The question is about people who come up with dumb excuse not to ever graduate. In this case, putting off graduation for a year and a half over 1 credit that he can take now.

There are others out there.

I suppose. But why did you specifically mention masters and doctorate students in your question, then? Also, have you asked him why he’s putting it off?

And it’s in Biochemistry.

Also, saying “you will begin to apply the degree upon graduation” is again misunderstanding things. Graduate students are the backbone of academic research. I, as mentioned, work 50–60 hours a week. That’s all work in a lab. I’m very much applying it now, and I’m sure this goes for @dappled_leaves, as well

I didn’t say that everyone who goes that route is sliding. The vast majority are not.

So, you think it’s possible to ‘slide’ in a doctorate program?

No, I don’t. You guys are correct. I shouldn’t have included the Doctorate program.

And probably not the masters, truth be told, especially if you were wondering about someone in a bachelors program. Masters degrees can be highly rigorous, as well. I think my friend going to get her Masters of Business is probably working even harder than I am. Many people go for bachelors if they can, because it’s pretty much required for a decent paying job, and they don’t necessarily fit well and have all sorts of issues that prevent them from performing well or finishing on time, and they end up wallowing. Not necessarily their fault, for sure, some people shouldn’t be forced into that situation. But it happens. Advanced degrees, on the other hand, usually require a true desire to start and real dedication to actually finish, and people will quickly drop out/be kicked out if they can’t manage it. Seriously, I make near the poverty line. I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t love it and think it’ll be worth it.

And I still think asking him his reasons is far better then simply assuming the worst. You know some of the situation, but it sounds like there’s still a lot you don’t, and it could explain quite a bit. Don’t judge a book by it’s cover, and all that.

Well, that was his original plan and it sent up flags for me.

It’s not a question I can ask him directly. I need to check who has offered him this wonderful job as soon as he graduates.

@Dutchess_III, to even be allowed to enter a doctorate program you have to be at the top of your field of study. While some people do start with misguided expectations, those people are unlikely to stick with it. Completion takes dedication and determination and a great deal of hard work. @BhacSsylan said he works 50–60 hours a week for pay that’s near the poverty line and that’s not an exaggeration.

Why do it? In Australia, you won’t even get considered for an academic position without one. Plus, those who complete, have a passion for their research field.

As I said, 3 posts above ” You guys are correct. I shouldn’t have included the Doctorate program.”

I always wanted to get my doctorate so the kids would have to call me Dr. Mom.

His job will actually be through the University that he is attending. Coke uses the university as an ad department for that area, I guess because of their graphic design program. So he’ll be working at the university, but being paid by Coke. Rumor has it that he has already designed a bill board or something for them and it’s on Kellogg in Wichita.