Why go to Church?

I have to go look up Zahavi.

I did not go to my “church” today because I was shoveling myself out after a sleepless night but I would have liked to. Although I’m an atheist and a Jew, I find the place I go to and the services when I go, a source of intellectual, spiritual, and social stimulation and comfort. It has nothing to do with any bargain with a god. I was sorry to miss this service which was going to be a delayed discussion from a canceled Valentine’s service on all aspects of love. I really get a lot from my minister’s sermons; she is an activist, a great writer and speaker, a deep thinker and a real mensch. And I usually engage in some substantive or pleasant interchange with someone else before or after the service.

I assume for your neighbor it might be all of the above and possibly her main social contact and religious comfort during the week. It has probably been a ritual of her week for most of her life. I have many social outlets but this is a rich one for me.

I don’t feel that I have to go every week though. I don’t go when driving is hazardous or if I have something else I want to do.

^^Well said,

@janbb What kind of service is that?

@dxs It’s a Unitarian Universalist congregation I started going to a year ago.

I think it more about obsessive habit and unquestioned “programming.” Elderly people tend to live with a lot of “shoulds & musts and have to’s.”
Anything that disrupts their routines is seen as catastrophic and produces anxiety. That’s all I’ve got.
I agree, there is no logic in risking an accident, fall or anything to go out in extreme inclement weather, but, that’s old folks and OCD types for you I guess.

For an elderly neighbor I once had, it was the things that @janbb said, as well as one more aspect, the most important one to her, which was the ability to focus and connect with her faith in that place with those people. She told me that yes, she could (and often did) pray at home, but the point of being in church, on that day, at that time every week, eliminated the distractions of a different “set up”, and so afforded her a much deeper communion with God.

Kind of like going to the gym regularly instead of buying and setting up at home all the equipment you use at the gym. Her words, not mine. She was 87 and a pip! :-D

Church going does become a pretty strong habit, especially when not going makes a believer feel immoral. I saw this with my parents.
According to the Catholic Church doctrine, morals are even more pressed because missing Sunday Mass is considered a mortal sin: the “worst” of the two sin levels.

I don’t get it, either, but then again I’m at work 35 hours a week with a 10 hour a week average commute on top of that, plus I get my socialization from friends and family and social networking – all things this elderly neighbor you have probably has minimally, if at all. From what I gather, some people who are very spiritual seem to find a real closeness to God when they’re in a church. Maybe your neighbor has that association?

@Coloma Your remarks sound very judgmental and I wonder if they are based on anything other than your opinion. For such an open-minded person as you profess to be, they sound very harsh. Surely each churchgoer would have their own reasons for going. But of course, each to his own and I’m not going to debate it.

@janbb: I’ve been thinking about checking out the UUs, I hear good things.

I’d have to be a believer to know that, I guess. A church is supposed to be the temple of God, so maybe people feel good going there, it’s part of their lives, and routine. Hell, I don’t believe in God, but whenever I find myself in a church for some reason or another, I feel good. They’re all peaceful and relaxing and shit. My mom took me to church every Sunday when I was little and I didn’t like it, mostly due to having to sit there for two hours and be bored, but in this question, that’s pretty much besides the point. If I was still in contact with my mom, I’d ask her about this, although as far as I know she gave up church a long time ago.
There are different reasons why people stick to church, it must vary from person to person, but eventually there must be some rallying point for those reasons.

@canidmajor I’m loving my congregagation. Great social and social activist activities too.

@janbb Not judging, just tossing out a very viable reply based on experience and knowing many elderly that are very habituated to their routines. I am not saying that is always the case but in many instances it is. People are creatures of habit and for many, as they age, they become very entrenched in things going according to how they usually go. The newspaper being late, the mailman being late, the weather interfering with getting to church, these things can really mess with the elderly in many cases.

@janbb Great answer. I can understand the social aspect. If that was all there is to it why not have her use FB or invite friends over? . My fear is that she will fall on the ice, break a hip and then there will be two infirm people in the house. It just seems so risky. She prides herself in being able to get there. I have no doubt while there they all are singing the old songs and swearing allegiance to their deity. That does not leave much time to kibitz. Why not go as a group and feed homeless or sort clothes for GoodWill or any of hundreds of projects that need help?.

I was running my massive snow blower right up to her stone steps buried under 2 feet of snow petrified that I would hit one and send a rock through her house or, worse, break my blower. I feel like I need to keep it as clean as possible.
If she would just stay home where it is warm and safe she would be helping society much more. I figure her odds of an accident are higher than someone driving while intoxicated, DWI. (I have no data, obviously, but surely her reaction time is slower than average.) By clearing her driveway am I enabling her?
It is 2 pm and I did not receive any phone calls or hear an ambulance so I figure she made it. Whew! Tomorrow it is supposed to be -3F, -20C. Her driveway and stone steps will be like glass. Ugh!

@LuckyGuy I understand your concern and it’s valid. Have you ever suggested to her that she not go because of the weather? Sometimes people choose to do something despite the risks they know are involved but a talk may be valid. Or just don’t shovel her out until after church time? :-)

@LuckyGuy It’s nice of you to be concerned for her health, but she has a right to make decisions about her own mobility. And luckily, she has neighbours who will work hard to make sure she has the freedom to do what she chooses.

@Coloma Maybe some elderly peeps are like that, some must be. But my grandmother is the complete opposite of all that lol. When she was little, they didn’t even have cars in her town. Granted, it was a small poor town, cars did exist, she’s not that ancient, (84) but that just to say, she adapts to everything and all the changes that I always assumed would piss her off.
I think a lot of old people are aware that things change, and they go with it, like everyone else. They’re not all stubborn and thick headed about shit which, I assume, they’ve seen more of, and have way more experience with than I.

Also my grandma is a strong believer, but she dislikes organized religion and what people do with it, so long ago in her life she gave up going to church. But to hear her talk about God, her belief and love of God hasn’t decreased because of this.

@Symbeline Sort of confirmation that old people are just people who are older. My Mom was a crazy embracer of every new thing that came down the pike – all her life.

You know what? I often wish I had that blind belief, that unfailing faith, it would probably prevent me from overthinking and overanalyzing. I would find peace and accept things and just put it all down to God’s will.

I think it’s social, for the most part. Apart from fundies, which are a minority, most people go because it’s a peaceful, friendly place where the regulars know each other. But I’ve not gone regularly since I was a kid, so my opinion is based solely on people I’ve known.

Then there are services that aren’t provided by the common weal, like child care—which has enabled many women I’ve known to work good, full time jobs knowing that their babies were being cared for among people they trusted. In return, they donate time or baked goods to their church or synagogue when they can. They aren’t necessarily religious, they are realists in a country which returns very few badly needed services to the tax-paying citizenry compared to other developed countries.

@janbb Yeah, I find it a bit sad that a lot of people have this fixed idea that old people live in a world completely of their own. I guess some might, but to me it seems that this idea is enforced by what people think and say, rather than by what actually is.

God fucking knows

@Symbeline Yes, I said many not all. A lot has to do with personality style and dementia too.

My most recent practice is called satsang, and it’s the equivalent of church for practitioners of advaita vedanta, which is a branch of Hinduism. Satsang is basically group meditation and inquiry led by a guru or sage who is awakened or enlightened. If you hang around long enough, you will hear talk of a “satsang field” and an understanding that the self-inquiry that is the individual’s work in satsang is amplified by the energy of the room—by the critical mass of people engaging in this kind of meditation and inquiry. It is common, once satsang has ended, for people to just hang out lying on the floor, because the energy is so peaceful and blissful.

Having experienced that (and having experienced withdrawals when I stopped going to Catholic services many years ago), I would say that there’s definitely an energy or vibration involved that people crave attunement to. No doubt you’ve experienced people who seem to live at a “lower” vibration, the hypothetical low-class folk who smoke, watch daytime TV and play the lottery or whatever. This would be an example of people who are maintaining a different vibration.

To answer your lesser question, yes she can get to God without going to a building, but not unless she’s aware of the option. It’s an age-old problem to watch the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon itself.

What’s most interesting about this whole scenario is your participation and that her need seems to have created a gift for you in the form of some meditation (or “ruminating,” which would be the opposite). Somehow, it’s not in you to refuse despite your objections for religious and practical reasons (not to mention your intellectual advantage). Dare I say, you are doing God’s work. :-)

Anyhoo, I would say both karma and Maya are at play, but that would be my answer to any similar question. We’re here to soak up all manner of experience—her hers and you yours.

Would the resources be better spent going to church, doing productive work or learning to see how life unfolds of its own accord and how one need not struggle with or against it? What if you were able to clear their driveway without the burden of this question but instead only because it somehow satisfied your nature? Why not find the answer to why you would never question her or say no, and stop there with your inquiry? Perhaps more important, why overlook that question in favor of the one you ask?

@Coloma Well as far as getting old goes, things like Alzheimer’s and other brain deteriorating conditions often comes with the territory unfortunately, but I wouldn’t directly link that to a person’s personality.

@kevbo :-) So I’m doing God’s work by helping others and not believing in God. Thank you for the compliment. Can you all see why I like coming here?

The snow suit, protective devices, loud engine, and nasty weather combine to offer a perfect opportunity for peace and solitude. No one can reach me when the augers are spinning.

@LuckyGuy: Reading about your efforts, I thought of the word “enabling” before you even wrote it. If you didn’t do all that for her, she’d be forced to make alternative arrangements, which might include not going at all. It’s very nice of you to do what you do for her, but really, you’re killing yourself for her to put herself at greater risk. Maybe if she couldn’t get out so easily, she’d have to stay in. I don’t know.

@LuckyGuy, surely you can find peace and solitude without the trappings of augers, protective gear, and an internal combustion engine.

(This is said with a friendly and smiling face, by the way.)

Maybe she needed an hour away from her husband. I went this morning in icy road conditions because my brother (a contractor) had built an activity building for the church and today they were having a dedication and good food.
My grandmother also embraced all new things. She was using a computer in her 90’s.

Better put, there’s quite a beautiful symbiosis in your story of today’s events.

@kevbo I too used to practice satsang and studied Adviata vedanta and while I don’t watch daytime TV or any TV for that matter and I rarely buy a lotto ticket I do smoke a few American Spirit cigarettes, a wee bit o’ the herbal essence on occasion and my vibration is just fine thank you very much.
Why not ask the real question?

WHO is smoking, WHO is shoveling, WHO has a lower vibration. lol

@Coloma, You mean like who is taking that characterization personally? :-)

It’s better to ask that of someone who is actually seeking the answer. There’s no evangelizing in advaita.

No reason except to be sociable and feed the church’s ba$ket.

Would the resources used by going to Church (i.e. time, effort, fuel, money, etc.) be better spent doing “productive work”, e.g., clearing sidewalks, picking up trash, feeding the poor, offering rides for the infirm, shopping for elderly, teaching literacy or math skills, helping with taxes, etc.?

Is Sunday morning the only time to do productive work? Just about every person I know who attends church does things to help the community when they are not at church.

@kevbo I, too, was smiling when I read your comment. “Surely you can find peace and solitude without the trappings of augers, protective gear, and an internal combustion engine.”

Sometimes I find peace and solitude in the woods while carrying a side arm. How’s that for a dichotomy? :-)

@jonsblond Sure, people can do good work on other days. Often they cannot. During the week they are working and need to pay the bills. Imagine how much they could do if they spent the Sunday time doing it.

@jca Yep, I was wondering if she fell in the church parking lot would it be my fault for being an enabler.

@kevbo I am actually happy to do their driveway. For many years her husband did mine with his tractor. Now it is my turn to return the favors.
When it is this nasty outside I just wish she’d stay in and only go out when absolutely necessary. Obviously she must feel going to church is absolutely necessary. Hence my question.

@LuckyGuy:“Why not go as a group and feed homeless or sort clothes for GoodWill or any of hundreds of projects that need help?”
Because that’s not the only thing this is about. That 1½ or 2 hours may be a chance for your neighbor to not only “kibitz” but to comfort someone who has experienced a loss, to help plan an event that might raise funds for community improvement, to find out who is in hospital and needs a visit to help through a frightening time.
You, of course, have much more information about your neighbor than I do, but I am addressing the general tenor of your question.

You are a lovely neighbor to have, to take such good care of your community. That is, unfortunately, becoming a lost art in some areas.

@kevbo Haha, yes. Just came to mind, it’s been awhile since I pondered the “who”. Since there is nobody going anywhere or doing anything we’ll just leave at at no one is going to church and no one is shoveling snow and no one is worrying about no one that might fall. lol

My mother-in-law is heavily involved in her church and I often wondered the same things until I had a couple occasions to meet her there.

She’s proud of her church. She’s proud of the pastor, and the choir, and the daycare they are adding. It is her project moreso than anything else she does other than maybe her grandchildren. After watching her up there, it’s definitely social, but it’s also there are people there counting on her to some extent. She’s important there in a way she maybe isn’t anywhere else in the world other than her own home.

After watching her, it’s like she’s a coach, and Sunday is gameday. She wouldn’t miss it not only because she wants to be there, but because she feels she owes to everyone else as well.

@janbb – That’s great that you found a UU that you like!

We used to go to our local UU for a couple of years. My wife felt it was really important, and in a way she was right. We’re atheists, but she really wanted to be around peaceful, liberal people and hopefully find some sense of community. I found that a decent amount of the sermons resonated with me – but it was because the minister was taking much of her inspiration from Thich, Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Chah, and Jack Kornfield. My initial resistance to attending eroded as I was awaking on Sunday morning, meditate, and then going to “church” to hear what was essentially a dharma talk. But at some point, much of that stopped, and it felt as though it went a little dry and more just vague talks of spirituality that were leaving me pretty alienated. Finally, the minister took a leave. Around that same time, we had many conflicts (scheduling) and ended up not going back. It’s been years.

I go through times when I attend a couple of local Insight Meditation Centers. But there is something missing with these. Community. My Christian neighbors all know so many people and have a strong network of like-minded people. They feel connected in some way because there are many church events, etc. I don’t really know if they believe, but it would make sense if they just pretended to even if they didn’t.

Yeah, I know – many atheists don’t need any groups like this, or they can start a Meetup and go atheist rockclimbing or something. But I think I do wish that I had access to a place where I would feel connected and some sense of community. I wish it for me and my kids. And I’m an extreme introvert. Sometimes life is lonely. I think many of us do want to find a place we feel that we belong. I can listen to a dharma talk by myself and meditate by myself. But when I feel inspired and want to talk to people about my journey and learn about their’s, sitting in silent meditation with other people can feel strange.

What the hell am I rambling about? I have no idea. I’m happy when I see people who have found their place. I’d like to find mine some day.

@hominid Yes, that is something that I found there that I didn’t mention in my first post – a sense of community. The people are so friendly and welcoming and I have joined two committees already. I feel entirely comfortable going to services or activities on my own and know there will be people to talk to. It is a very special place. And the minister takes inspiration and quotes from all kinds of religions, poets and activists for her sermons.

@hominid : Is there a Quaker Meeting near you? As an secular Jew, I loved being involved with The Society of Friends and I loved having my kids involved. Sunday Meeting is 45 minutes of near silence, but anyone can rise and speak. No one preaches. No one is considered a minister. After Meeting, there is a social hour with tea and cookies and chit chat.

The community provides many other more vocal and social opportunities as well. They love extreme introverts.

I am intentionally NOT addressing any spiritual reasons she needs to go but I will address the practical reasons.
These are the people who will support her when her husband dies, who will help her when she’s ill, that is, in case they forget her. Then she will be all alone. She must go so they remember her when she needs them.

Yea, people do go simply for socialization. If I went, I’d go for the MILFs.

I suspect the lady might “need” to go out of a need for socialization, but there might be also be a true sense of obligation, not to her husband, not to the church, but to her spirituality. She’s probably been going to that church for many years, and has developed a very strong social (possibly spiritual?) network. I agree with what @Judi said about her fellow congregants being her support system, and that is a very strong need for this lady.

@Judi That makes perfect sense – and fits perfectly with the concept of Zahavi handicap. She could easily stay home and pray for one weekend due to snow and ice. But, her attendance in that kind of weather is proof that she is healthy, vibrant, and capable.

@Blackberry You are not the only one with that thought. I personally know a couple who met in the choir, dated, and ended up marrying – after both leaving their respective spouses.

@LuckyGuy Unless she wants to get hot and heavy with the congregation, this is not about Zahavi’s handicap principle.

Church makes me fall asleep, probably because I’ve never entered one by choice, it was always something I was forced into.

@dappled_leaves Zahavi handicapping is usually associated with reproductive health. Clearly that is not an issue with her. But I wonder if it is an indicator of overall health for potential future partner selection.

These answers are great. I’m going with the social aspect. That concept makes sense to me.
But, truth be told, it doesn’t matter what I think. It’s her life. I’ll still keep clearing her driveway and walk whether she intends to go to church, exercise class, or visit a crack house.
Thanks for your input.

One of my cousins is very Catholic. She’s always writing about the church and the great feeling of love she gets from being in God’s house of worship. I’m not Catholic and I don’t feel that way when I’m in a church, but maybe there’s something I’m missing.

You know, @LuckyGuy, it might be an interesting conversation if you asked her this question, expressing honest interest.
(And then, of course, rush back here and tell us all about it.) ;-)

I was raised in a strong Catholic family, and like @jca‘s friend, I can attest to the intense feeling that can be experienced by the True Believer. Even after my personal spirituality developed into a completely different direction, on the occasional visit back to a church (any Catholic church) I would find a comfort and familiar feeling, much like visiting my childhood home.

I can only imagine the comfort and solace this would provide for someone who might be devout in her faith, who has probably been a member for many years, especially after losing a lifelong partner.

@LuckyGuy “But I wonder if it is an indicator of overall health for potential future partner selection.”

Sure… for a potential reproductive partner. Any handicap principle at work here would be far, far outweighed by the fact that she is elderly. It’s an amusing thought, but not a serious one.

@dappled_leaves I was extrapolating it to a future partner selection, not a future breeding partner selection.
If she ever decides to remarry, it is likely her pool of men will be found squarely inside the church. By showing up in such inclement weather she proves to prospective partners that she can take care of herself and (by implication) others. She is proving she can still do the shopping and cooking rather than being housebound.

I agree, it is amusing. If my hearing protection was equipped with music I would not be able to contemplate these thoughts. Instead I’d be listening to something I’ve heard a dozen times before and incapable of having these “deep” thoughts. The weather, and she, have given me a gift.

@canidmajor. I’d love to ask her but there is no way I would ever mention something like this. That I why I came here – to get trusted answers and perspective without potential offense given or received.

If, after the sad, statistically probable death of her husband occurs and she marries someone from the church within 6 months, I will be sure to let everyone here know. :-)

@LuckyGuy I understand that you really want the principle to work the way you want it to work, but it is a biological imperative, not a rational choice. We are human. We can look at a potential partner, size them up, and appreciate their qualities in the context of our stage of life. Evolution doesn’t operate within that kind of context. The principle would be overridden by the frailty that comes with age. It’s not operating here.

@dappled_leaves I get it. We are human and evolution needs to work over many generations. But I’m playing here. I figure Zahavi is at play more than we realize. Imagine a woman in high heels: costly due to potential foot injury and limited mobility. Guys can’t help notice them. The “klip klop” sound of a woman rocking in heels is almost irresistible. Or imagine a man wearing a gold watch or driving a fancy car. Women notice. Unfortunately with easy credit the watch and car are unreliable indicators. Could they be replaced by something like early retirement age: costly due to low income but and indicator of strong financial reserves?

After my Mom died, my Dad moved to a retirement community in Florida. He told me the women swooned over men who still had night time driver’s licenses. The men able to drive to the movies and dinner (not early bird specials) had more dating opportunities than the ones with severe cataracts. In fact, they found themselves quite busy. (I did not ask for details.)
It costs more money to go out to late dinner and to the movies but, it shows you can. I contend it is a factor in mate selection. While genetic material will not be swapped it is possible the health and viability of their grandchildren is improved and thus the genetic line is helped down the road.

@LuckyGuy Dude, I understand how it works. I’m a biologist. I’m trying to explain to you that it isn’t at work here. You’ve misunderstood the application of the principle.

@dappled_leaves (This sure is fun.) I too know how it works. I am trying to relate the similarity between honest indicators of reproductive health, e.g. the classic costly peacock feathers and large deer antlers and mate selection, to an elderly human’s costly and risky need to go out in nasty weather.
It is a free range mind exercise resulting from wearing hearing protection and being alone in one’s thoughts.

She probably won’t date after her husband dies. She won’t want to take care of another man.

@chyna…unless he comes with a snow blower and a nighttime drivers license. :-)

Actually, you are probably right. They have been married over 60 years and I’m guessing both are set in their ways. .

@chyna Haha…true, I know I don’t.
22 years of marriage was enough for me.

@LuckyGuy “It is a free range mind exercise ”

All righty. As long as you’re not pretending it has anything to do with science.

@chyna I know a lady who took care of her very sick husband for over 10 years before he finally passed away from his illness. A year after he died she moved to California and signed up for every online dating site she could find in search of a younger guy.

It’s Tuesday morning and the grandmother of my daughter’s best friend just brought us a large meal for dinner, a gift card for the local grocery store and $40 for gas to help us get Jon to his medical appointments. She mentioned that her church will be able to help us more in the future when we need it. We don’t know when Jon will be able to get back to work and his vacation days are running out. His work does not offer sick days.

This woman went to church Sunday when the temperature was well below 0. Bless her heart. She had me in tears this morning.

@jonsblond That is just lovely.

Have you looked in to Jon going on disability? This would seem to be a clear case for it.

There are a lot of obstacles ahead if there’s going to be a disability claim, the least of which is that it takes many months for the first rejection (which is inevitable). I think they do that so that it kind of forces the person to go to work, if they can.

@jca This isn’t the place to get into it, but I was thinking short term disability which shouldn’t take that long, not permanent which I know is a bear to get.

@jonsblond (Hugs) That is wonderful. That’s how the system is supposed to work. Thanks!
I hope someone cleared the snow from her driveway.

17F, -8C, winds gusting to 35mph. I’m going out to blow snow and be alone with my thoughts for an hour or so.
Who knows what problems I will solve.

@LuckyGuy Or create?

Watching the stream of heavy snow arc into the air and land 20 ft away made me think about how weak and inefficient the human machine is. I could shovel all day (if I could) and not do 1/10 of what that TroyBilt just did in one hour on only a gallon of gasoline.
Humans were made to think, invent, and strategize. Those are our strengths

ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!! At 8:30 this morning I got a call from my neighbor asking me to walk her dog. Her husband is taking her to the emergency room because she fell on the ice and hurt her shoulder.

11:45 AM She is home from the hospital in a sling. She “broke her shoulder just below her ball and socket joint”. 6 to 8 weeks.

^You are a good neighbor.

Thanks. They would gladly do the same for me.
I heard more of the story. She decided to let her husband, who usually does the morning dog walk, sleep in since she was already up. She walked out in the driveway and then decided to go around and behind the garage so the dog could run on top of the snow frozen snow. She slipped on ice from the garage roof, out of view of the house. The dog took off after two deer but his leash got caught on some brush that was sticking through the snow. She managed to get inside and then called me shortly after.

Poor lady. Hopefully her church will bring her meals while she recovers!

@Judi The folks on the road will be bringing food, too.

It looks like I’ll be walking the dog for the next couple of weeks.

@LuckyGuy, You’re a great neighbor. If you ever want to move to Oregon there is a 100+ acre lot a quarter mile up the road. I would love to have you for a neighbor. You would fit right in in this community. :-)