Do people really believe that they can control nature?

Well, of course we can influence nature. We do this on a continual basis.

However, I wouldn’t guess that sacrificing the Bourgeoisie would do much in that effort, except for whatever effects might be due to slightly reducing the population. So… let’s not have any human sacrifices? Sounds reasonable to me.

Lots of other things we do to affect nature, though. Consider cities that have had smog reduction regulations put in place. The impact of those laws (as well as the impact of the absence of those laws) was literally visible.

Consider the effects of damming rivers – such an act changes the entire ecosystem in the surrounding watershed, drowning trees and removing some species that live there while creating new habitat for other species.

We affect nature in many such ways; the effects are not always “bad”.

Sure we can. Want some examples?

Every piece of steel that has been made, or was above ground since 1945, is radioactive. Man did that. Nature didn’t. See that ozone hole? Man did that with CFCs. Fortunately, we figured it out before it got too far and did some real damage. Some things are starting to reverse. But the radioactivity? Ummm, not so much. We really screwed the pooch there.
DDT and Dieldrin is in every bit of food we eat – and in us. How many birth defect or cancers did it cause? Who knows? We made that – not nature.
The plastic nanoparticles in the ocean are going to be a problem in few years. Plankton eat it, then bigger plankton eat them, then fish eat them, then….. The problem is the plastic has no nutritional value and weakens the food chain. Then it reaches us.
In 40 years we moved the average background CO2 from 300 ppm to 400 ppm. It is easy to do the math. How many barrels of oil did we burn? How many pounds of CO2 per gallon is produced when oil is burned? How big is the atmosphere? A shell 60 miles thick around the earth. There’s your answer. You can argue the effect of that CO2 all day. You can’t argue the math and chemistry. Actually anyone can argue anything but without data it is just an uneducated opinion.
The laws of Physics are hard to beat.

If you’ve got the interest we can talk off line. There are other things we make that are foreign to the lifeforms on the planet. I won’t mention it here. So, yeah, we can screw it up pretty badly.

Apes, together…strong

Anyone who thinks they can control Nature should live through a major flood. Holy shit that will change your mind and feed you a big meal of humble pie. God I hate floods.

As already said, we can affect nature, but control it outright? I think not.

@Symbeline Yeah, second thought, ask anyone who’s been in the path of a tornado.

Yeah, altering and affecting something isn’t control. And a lot of the ways we do affect nature is indirect. Pollution and deforestation for example have effects on nature, but nothing we ever wanted, and like fuckin, 60 years ago or whatever, people may have not even been aware of what the effects would be.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I heard that an increase in storms and tornadoes has to do with how much of the Amazon rainforest we destroyed; it sort of acted as a giant shield against winds, but now they have an easier time getting through.

If we really could control nature, we would be able to create, or stop storms, floods, earthquakes…probably a good thing we can’t do this. Everything that nature does has a reason, I guess like some kind of cycle or self maintenance.

@Symbeline We control it to the extent that we are causing global climate change (or global warming, if you prefer). Had humanity never existed, or had we used our technology and resources differently, the outcome for “nature” would be completely different than what we are experiencing now. We have dictated the state of our own planet.

But I agree that “control” is not the best word to describe these process that we’ve lived through, because our influence has not been deliberate. I have no doubt that we could eventually a) sufficiently get our shit together enough to work on deliberately affecting the climate and b) develop some technology that could radically alter our climate.

And also, to illustrate the point better, there’s a difference between the processes that brought us here, and what we can do. If we wanted to, we could make things much, much worse, very quickly. We certainly know how to do that. So, the conditions of the question are met – of course humans can control nature. It’s not hubris to say that.

We don’t deliberately control it, right now. We do strongly influence it, mostly unintentionally.

That’s pretty much what I meant. We affect it, as you say, unintentionally. But none of that is control, as I understand the word.

And yeah, I agree, I’m sure we’re capable of much worse, or we could develop some technology that literally could control nature…in fact, it’s crazy to think of all the cool shit humans could do if we weren’t so busy making money and waging wars.

“Nature” is not something separate from us. By definition, whatever happens is nature. What we do, then, is natural. Factories, smog, plastic, landfills, toxic waste, all these things are natural. Once you accept that everything which happens is natural, we can dispense with the superstition around “playing God.”

Through generations of sacrifice, struggle, insight, and hard work, we have discovered some of the levers by which vast changes can be made using relatively little force. The only thing preventing us from doing so is existential cowardice. Why shouldn’t we declare mosquitoes and liver flukes to be unnecessary and eradicate them through genetic engineering? Grasses and trees are at war; in time, grasses will eventually eradicate all the trees on Earth. Why shouldn’t we force trees and grasses to co-exist for our pleasure?

When a river overflows its banks, countless lifeforms die under the idiot hand of stochastic and uncaring nature. The only thing preventing humans from removing the randomness and consciously choosing where the river will flow is our unwillingness to accept the moral burden of the deaths and suffering which will occur as a result. Part of growing up means taking on the responsibility for one’s actions. It’s time to stop being children. We must take the Earth in our hands and make of it what we Will.

I certainly agree with you that as lifeforms living on Earth, we probably follow some cycle or nature that is inevitable. I’ve often argued this myself, that our survival instinct has evolved beyond just eat, fight or flee. Our consciousness seems to make us think we have free will, but I’m guessing that very idea is part of our instinct, too. I know it sounds nuts, but this is what I honestly believe.
Where you and I differ there is that I din’t think we can ever do what we want with the planet. Once we’ve accomplished whatever natural role we have to play, we’ll probably be get rid of. Our actions cause pollution, famine, disease, and I think those will eventually get us.

And when I mean roles to play and whatnot, I’m not talking about the planet like it was a cognizant god or something. I mean like bees exist to pollinate flowers, how some predators exist to keep other animals’ populations in check, stuff like that. Don’t know what our role is, but we don’t exist for nothing. And when we’re all dead, the rest of nature will go on. Hell maybe it NEEDS us to fuck it up, so everything can start anew differently, I don’t know.