If our actions do not match our values, are we incorrect about what our values actually are?

See, now that comes across a whole lot better ;-}

I’m finding myself drawn to one particular phrase here, one which neatly sums up what I believe to be your intent…“talk is cheap”

Our family finds “Look at what you do, not at what you say” a very useful adage.

Using your example @ hominid, John may think that he should value reading and therefore claims that it is his value, but it is not. However, the incongruity of values and actions often arises from conflicting desires. This would be reader could be addicted to television. If John could break this habit, he likely would act on his value to read.

I doubt there are many people who are literally confused about what they value. There are hypocrites, and there are also people who are works-in-progress, who are working on being the people they aspire to be but still have a ways to go, maybe a long way to go. Some addicts fall off the wagon a few times before they finally get clean and sober for good.

Aristotle’s distinction between the virtuous, the continent, the incontinent, and the vicious applies here.

I often wonder about this as well; more about myself than others. After all, I am rarely privy to what people do on their own time.

My conclusion so far is that there are several factors that may come into play.

* Older values are retired before the owner realizes it.
* A value stated may be a global categorization for something that they specifically hold dear.
* We don’t always recognize what our values are. They are so innate that they can be taken for granted. Sometimes, they are falsely presumed to be of value to everyone else.
* A handful may want to be viewed as having a more righteous personality than they actually hold.

It’s hard to say. I find myself sympathizing with your example a little bit. I don’t read as much as I wish I did but I still feel that reading is one of the most valuable activities one can do. However, it takes a bit more energy and focus than I can usually muster after a long day of classes and homework. Depression is another reason why someone might spend a lot of time doing meaningless activities, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what they really want to be doing.

There was some interesting, related discussion on this questions that you might be interested in.

@Bill1939 – “John may think that he should value reading”

You make an interesting point. What we tell ourselves that we value might be attempts to shape our values. We believe that we should value x, so we tell ourselves that we do value x.

@CugelTheClueless: “I doubt there are many people who are literally confused about what they value.”

I think I’ve always been under the assumption that I simply forget what my values are. Life will be chugging along, and I’ll suddenly catch a clear glimpse of it and discover that my self-professed values seem to have played into the equation at all. Are you saying that in this case, what I hold to be important (my values) may in fact not be apparent in my actions, but they are still really my values?

@Pied_Pfeffer: “Older values are retired before the owner realizes it.”

I think you may be right. I have peeked at the expiration date on some of my values in the past and discovered that I have been carrying them along for too long without inspecting them.

@Pied_Pfeffer: “We don’t always recognize what our values are.”

I suspect you’re correct here as well. But we’re all a work in progress. If my self-declared values are the same next year as they are today, I will be doubtful that I have done sufficient contemplative work.

@Pied_Pfeffer: “A handful may want to be viewed as having a more righteous personality than they actually hold.”

Very true. But I am more focused on our self-declared values, I suppose. Then again, we tell ourselves all kinds of things that are just not true.

@Mariah: “Depression is another reason why someone might spend a lot of time doing meaningless activities, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what they really want to be doing.”

Excellent point. One of the features of depression is that temporary loss of desire and pleasure that can be taken in the things we love and value when we are not depressed.
Thanks, I’ll check out that other discussion.

Usually, “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.” But don’t we all love the Double-Standard!

For understanding stuff like this, I find it helpful to refer to the “brain as committee” model of human behavior. We think of ourselves as a unified entity with internal consistency, but it’s more accurate to see our brains as a quarrelsome committee of processes having different agendas and points of view.

When you ask a question about values, that’s going to be fielded by the network of the brain concerned with maintaining the aspirational self. But when it comes to actually calling the behavioral shots, other “members” of the committee often speak with a louder voice.

Love that “brain as committee”. I just wish my committee members were willing to cooperate occasionally. :) It’s a shouting match up in my head.

I think I’ve always been under the assumption that I simply forget what my values are. Life will be chugging along, and I’ll suddenly catch a clear glimpse of it and discover that my self-professed values seem to have played into the equation at all. Are you saying that in this case, what I hold to be important (my values) may in fact not be apparent in my actions, but they are still really my values? [sic – should there be a “don’t” after “self-professed values”?]

@hominid I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say here, even if I insert the “don’t”, but I can imagine an interpretation in which it makes sense to say that you forget what your values are. I’m saying that it is possible to know that x is the right action or goal, and want to do x, but still fail to do x. Maybe even fail to try to do x.

@CugelTheClueless: “I’m not sure what I understand what you’re trying to say here”

You’re not the only one. I can’t make any sense of it, and I wrote it.

Re: “forgetting what my values are” – I will go a period of time just living my life, and then be reminded to pause and evaluate what is really important to me. It’s then that I feel like I have forgotten what my values were. I will make efforts to be more conscious of them and bring my life more in line with my values. or something…

I think value is more related to the feelings we get when we do something, not necessarily how often we do it.

Sometimes it’s even inversely related to how often we get to do something.

John is a double-minded man and a fraud to his own convictions.

The value may still be incorrect even if John practiced what he valued, but, since John’s actions were different than what he claimed to value, it tells me that John is weak-willed and just behaves like any other instinctive animal. A slave to his biological urges.

@ obvinate, I disagree with your contention that John is weak-willed. Being conflicted is not being weak-willed. Instinct would not have a part in his conflict as it has little if any influence in his choosing to watch television instead of reading. His behavior is a product of psychological not biological urges.

He isn’t being conscious over his proclaimed goal to catch up on his books. Since there is no consciousness, he can only be driven by his body for visual pleasures, not his mind.

If he is bombarded by multiple desires and can’t prioritize which one he actually claims to want to do, then he is weak-willed. The stronger desire made the decision for him. That is instincts.

Consciousness means there is an ability to control. No consciousness means instincts are in control. The action is mindless.

Some drug addicts value their health and aim to quit, but, they’re always making excuses that it is hard to quit because they’re dependant on their newly formed brain chemistry, however, so is the desire for sustenance, and sex, does that mean one cannot control it through abstinence? You can, if you’re conscious. The reason why they don’t is because they’re slaves to their urges. Just like animals. Not only do they not understand moderation, they have no concept of self-discipline.

Unconscious motivation may be instinct driven, but it is more likely not. Instinct’s predilection is different from dependence due to an altered brain. Genetics determine the brain’s initial chemistry and the basis for instinct. Habituated and addictive behaviors are established when the chemistry of the brain and its neuronal pathways have been altered.

Abstinence does not reverse these changes. Few can control their habit or addiction through self-discipline. Fewer can recognize much less understand the reasons behind their undesirable behavior without the intervention by others, preferably professionals.

Anxiety and other emotional and physiological states will intensify the desire for the behavior when attempting to stop them, as anyone working with twelve-step programs knows. Being conscious of the problem is a necessary condition however lacking this does not make one like an animal.

Discriminating between the differences from where desires manifest does not change the fact that it can be controlled.

The goal of moderation and self-discipline isn’t to alter/reverse the desires. Desires will always be with you and you can only become satiated temporarily until the desires come back.

I have no idea where you get this idea that few can control their habits through self-discipline. Just in my own limited experience, I see it everyday with people who are obese, or overweight, going on extreme diets and exercise regimes to shed the pounds that they have gained through mindless gluttony. To deny yourself satisfaction from your desires is painful, frustrating, and difficult, but that pain is necessary for growth. You cannot grow without pain. I see the same moderate/disciplined behavior from alcoholics, drug abusers, and video game addicts. They may/may not understand this behavior, but they’re aware of it, and they take control on their own.

Acting like an animal / weak-will is precisely why some “people” need intervention by others because either the consciousness is mostly dead (unrecognizable undesirable behavior) or they’re goal oriented (recognized but slaves to the desire). This similarity falls under the same concept of animal training.

If Indeed the fact is that most people have such difficulty with being conscious, then it tells me just how many animals disguised as humans are walking around me. I stand by my original statement – the strength of the desire does not negate the animalism / weak-will of the individual.