I am a Christian - (AMA details inside)

Well, hello. I’m agnostic. How are you?

What?

So, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One, are you opening yourself up for us to ask you questions about Christianity?

Is your intention of this to educate us or convert us?

I missed @Haleth’s question in the link provided when she posted it. AMA’s are a wonderful idea.

So @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One, which version of the Bible do you prefer and why?

Would you agree or disagree that Christianity is diverse enough that, aside from a belief in Jesus being the Messiah and dying for our sins, few if any generalizations can be made about followers of Christ?

If you’re a self-proclaimed “non expert”, I’m not sure what any query would be except perhaps overly personal.

Anyway, as an atheist, thanks, but I don’t have any questions.

I love dogs and ducks, let’s leave it there and go no further.

Sorry…if you keep talking about Christ around here, they will make you grumpy….but I admire your bravery

Was Jesus misogynistic? To keep it clean and brief, I will grant that he likely was not. So where did the occasional but persistent Christian drift towards misogyny originate?

^ I know that one, its quite easy.

@Dutchess_III
I’m pretty good. You?

@tinyfaery
Why?

@ibstubro
If that’s what you want to ask about, sure.

@johnpowell
I’m not here with any agenda. I can learn and be “converted” on ideas too. I’m not from Westboro.

@Pied_Pfeffer
I gravitate toward the KJV because I grew up with it. I’ve read other versions too but they feel diluted to me.

@jerv
Great question. Perhaps the term Christian is not specific enough for all the denominations that exist nowadays. Suffice it to say that mostg et caught up on the idea of God in general. So I like to keep it simple.

@syz
Please see the link in the description as it kinda sorts out what is happening here.

@ZEPHYRA
As you wish. I like both as well.

@Hypocrisy_Central
I honestly do get that vibe here (as a whole) but I don’t think it has to be that way. I’m not willing to hide.

@josie
No, he wasn’t. (and yes, I did have to look that word up)

I think what you’re talking about has its roots in people’s resistance to change. We humans can be stubborn lot. There are still racists in the world too (morons). We have to be cognizant of the what and why of change, but not immune to it in my opinion.

I’m interested in hearing your take HC.

@all
As a side note, please excuse some bad punctuation or if I dont get your link right. Typing on mobile isnt my forte.

The thing is – we do have Christians here and Jews and Buddhists and atheists and we’ve done a lot of talking about religious beliefs here over the years.

I appreciate you making the offer, just not sure how many takers you’ll get. I think it’s mostly a live and let live attitude around here by now.

Just curious what you think of Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh and folks like that? When I was a born again Christian, in the 80’s, all my Christian friends thought Rush Limbaugh was the cat’s meow. I thought he was disgusting, so I guess that meant I wasn’t really a Christian.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One I’m interested in hearing your take HC.
Well, here is my take, first off, buckle up boys and girls; it will be a very bumpy ride to some of you. Why do people get it twisted that God and Christ are anti-women? The short answer is the adversary most do not believe in (because he is very cunning and can fool many) is able to run roughshod over them. God has created the strong family to be the foundation of human life, as with any structure, botch the foundation, the rest of the building can’t ever be right. God sees women as important as men but that both have a different function, NOT THE SAME FUNCTION. God is a God of order; He created the order of which the man is the head. That is where the trouble comes because the adversary, Satan, has attacked every facet of the family; he destroys the family he can destroy man and forever doom him to eternity with him and his imps. The first weapon Old Slew Foot (the Devil) is man’s pride, not wanting anything greater than himself or having to answer to anyone for his actions. Saints that misapplied Ephesians 5:22–32, because of the pride of men they have come to see ”submit” as something forced upon the wives like a WWE submission move to best their wives and make her capitulate, at worse they see it as submitting to a master as if a slave, because language differences and applications the Greek intention of the word got distorted. The submission spoken is voluntary, as Christ came down to Earth to live as a lowly human, He was subject to the Father; Christ was no slave to God. The Tempter got man to believe his spouse was like his slave and thus most saints of Biblical times got it incorrect. Fast forward to modern times, because the latent errors of the saints of old carried into the modern day, the Tempter worked on the pride of the woman to not have a head, to be co-captains in the home and relationship; even in the church. Feminism was born, and the family unit’s foundation was further eroded. Again, equal importance but not the same function, you can’t have more than one captain and expect the ship not to run aground. Add the fact men refuse to step up and be men, but are worried that if they took their place as men they would be called misogynist or chauvinist by feminist and their supporters, men cowed down and decided to try and pilot the chip by committee and the good ship USS Family has been hitting the reef ever since. It is not getting any better, nor will it ever in the direction the family is headed. Old Slew Foot has blinded most men and women to the remainder of the verses where it says: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” The woman has to only submit voluntarily, the man has to love his wife as much as he does himself and be willing to gladly die for her, doesn’t seem as if women got the short end of the stick to me, does it to you?

Yeah, it will take some to get over it if they did not lose their lunch, said it was going to be a bumpy ride, and some will even deny that.

I’ll decline to ask you any Christian questions because I’m agnostic and, as @syz, says, I don’t really have any.

I had 16 years perfect attendance at a backwoods, hard-line Christian church when I quit attending. I could ask you the questions that made me loose my faith, but what’s the point? If they could be answered to my satisfaction, I would have already found those answers. I do not begrudge you your faith, and asking you questions about it would be (@syz again) “overly personal” or, seen as an attempt punch holes in your beliefs. as @janbb said, we’re mostly live-and-let-live around here. If you don’t try to persuade me, I’ll not try to dissuade you.

WOT^^ and quotes from a storybook generally produce a result opposite of the intent.

I was raised by a VERY Catholic mother of Irish ancestry. But I got wise when a science teacher in Junior High school told the class about evolution and the “Big Bang” theory. Now I am happily and devoutly an Atheist. Christian values are good and maybe there was a person called Jesus Christ who taught those Christian values, but that is as far as it goes with me.

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

@kritiper His name wasn’t “Jesus Christ”. He didn’t have a last name, as was the custom at the time. If anything, he was referred to as “Jesus of Nazareth” due to his birth location, which was also a common practice.

It also seems fairly safe to bet that Jesus was a real person. Even the Jews and Muslims don’t deny this; they just don’t believe that he was the son of God, but a profit.

@Pied_Pfeffer Actually, his real name isn’t really important so long as you know who I’m talking about. If you check your standard (not religious) dictionary, you’ll find the definition of a Christian is a “follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ.” (Or whatever his name is/was.)

Too late to edit: ‘prophet’ not ‘profit’. And no, that was not a pun. @janbb Thanks for the heads up friend.

I was going to ask a companion “I am an agnostic” question, but I don’t see how that’s possible?

I knew it. Feminism is the devil’s work.

There ARE Christians here, but, like the real world, there are varying kinds of Christians.
There are a few fundamentalists here, but most of us are moderate to liberal. I think that there are so few fundamentalists because this place demands respectful discourse and many fundamentalists are so sure that they have all the answers that they really don’t fit well in a place designed for asking questions. The moderate and liberal Christians are more open minded and willing to respect people and their opinions even if they are different.

@janbb I remember when we had a Ba’hai or two. I think we’ve still got a few pagans around.

Do they know that you are Christian by your love, by your love?

@Blondesjon African or European?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Why are you a Christian? How closely do your beliefs align with those of your parents?

Boxers or briefs?

Paper or plastic?

Would you like fries with that?

Are you going to eat that last piece of pie?

@josie I believe that, while the middle eastern civilization at that time was very paternalistic like much of the rest of the world, that most of the misogynistic attitudes expressed in the Bible seem to originate with Paul and his personal beliefs.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One
Tell me about the schism in the early church between the followers of the teachings of Jesus centered around Jerusalem/Nazareth area and the followers of the teachings of Paul which seems to have Rome as its spiritual center.. From my perspective it appears that Paul won and a much larger percentage of the New Testament is devoted to the teachings of Paul (or his interpretation of the teachings of Jesus), than are given to the lessons of Jesus.

@fundevogel I know one cupcake Baha’i who is still here…

Where’d he go?

@Dutchess_III Who? I’m a (female) Baha’i. Do you mean @Fireside? That’s my hubby. He’s busy with other things.

I know who you are, @Cupcake! Although I didn’t know Fireside was your hubby. But I do now. I was referring to the OP. He was going to answer questions….

oops… my bad.. :)

Where are the answers?

We used to have another Baha’i member too.

@janbb I know :( I miss her.

@janbb
Well it is an open invitation. I’m not really trying to gather numbers. I just fancy a friendly discussion from time to time.

@Dutchess_III
I think they can be interesting, sure..but one thing I doubt is that your opinion of Rush has anything to do with wether or not you are a Christian.

The best churches I’ve been to had pastors who were willing to apologize for a mistake if it was pointed out to them. Radio folks of old (like Limbaugh) seem to have an air of narcissism about them (or an I am always right-ness) that I can’t personally stand. That said, they aren’t always wrong.

@Hypocrisy_Central
I agree that the way Christians are taught to form families and treat men/women is overlooked. I cant do any more to explain it than you’ve already done.

@ibstubro and @kritiper and whoever else.
If you haven’t any questions it is fine.

@Blondesjon
It isn’t constant. I will plug numbers in for x and draw a graph.

@kevbo
Not usually. Im pretty bad at being a Christian most days.

@FireMadeFlesh
” Why are you a Christian? How closely do your beliefs align with those of your parents?”

There are tons of reasons. But in general: Because I’ve never experienced something so pure and profoundly benevolent. The worst decisions I’ve made in life have been contrary to my beliefs. The result was not surprising.

My beliefs closely match that of my parents but not entirely. I get it. There is something to be said for the power of some parents over the minds of their children – but I think that’s a biased approach. It invites a lot of fallacy to assume that I’m somehow robotically brainwashed.

@Kardamom
“Boxers or briefs?
Paper or plastic?
Would you like fries with that?
Are you going to eat that last piece of pie?”

-Boxer Briefs
-Plastic
-I love me some fries
-Is it pecan? I love pecan pie.

@rojo
The teachings of Paul were not founded in Paul. Are you saying that there are different messages?

@tinyfaery
Here. It’s a hectic work week for me.

@all
It sounds as if everyone is flat out exhausted of any topic relating to God or Religion. What happened here in he past to spoil everyone’s appetite for friendly discourse?

It seems as if a sarcasm factory is all that remains. But again, I’m new here.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One You’ve sucked me in! This is my first post in a religion topic.

AMA: What are your thoughts about politicians pandering and governing for the benefit of believers in order to receive their votes?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Not to answer for @all but from my perspective what happened was that there were a lot of questions in a short time about theism and atheism and each side felt badgered and belittled by the other. Some people left in a huff a nd some people left in a minute and a huff (with apologies to Groucho.) So some of us are a bit burned out.

But thanks for being open to the questions.

@bossob
I think it’s despicable. But we all know that politicians use what they can to get votes.

Interestingly enough, Abraham Lincoln is very often credited with quotes that actually come from the Bible. And somehow he is almost universally considered one of the greatest presidents. Perhaps it had something to do with that honest bit.

@janbb
That’s very unfortunate.

Do you think the schools should teach creation?

@Dutchess_III
“Do you think the schools should teach creation?”
No. I think Christians need to teach their own kids about creation. That way when they are forced to study what is currently in textbooks they know that there is some wiggle room with scientific texts. Christian parents should teach their kids that science and the bible are not at odds with each other..but that some things are theoretical in nature.. a best guess with limited information sometimes. They should also be taught that faith and belief aren’t the same as a scientific proof.

GA, What are your thoughts on the fact that god populated the world thru incest?

@Dutchess_III
“GA, What are your thoughts on the fact that god populated the world thru incest?”

It didn’t start out as something so negative. It wasn’t until mankind had saturated itself in sinful behavior that it became taboo (as God commands in Leviticus). Perhaps God also knew about the genetics of His creation and what would happen in future generations.

So God does change! And he changes his mind!

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One GA I can concur with that

@Dutchess_III So God does change! And he changes his mind!
He is not a robot, He is sovereign and can do what He pleases. He can change His mine but He won’t change His will, it may happen in a different way, but it will happen.

This is where Christianity really gets me. One minute everything that happens is his will. The next minute, everything that happens is because he gave us humans free will. It just gets so twisted up and ridiculous!

@Dutchess_III One minute everything that happens is his will. The next minute, everything that happens is because he gave us humans free will.
It has been the same all along; it only seems that way to those who don’t know. It is His will that we have free will to choose out of our own desire and not out of compulsion. It is his will to allow man to exercise free will to be obedient or disobedient. It might be the will of parents that their kids go to college and get a top quality education, but they still allow their kids to make their own decision. I guess the parent could say “since I am paying for college you will go to college, and here is where you are going since they will accept you.

@Hypocrisy_Central The flaw in that argument is that, to make it relevant in this context and yet realistically reflect the situation, you’d have thousands of parents instead of just two, and they would all be saying different things.

So, do you honestly, really believe that Mary was a virgin and became pg by magic?

@Dutchess_III
“So, do you honestly, really believe that Mary was a virgin and became pg by magic?”

I don’t believe any magic was involved. I believe that a being capable of creating a universe would find this task relatively simple.

< This atheist is not tired of religious debate yet.

AMA:

Have you ever felt that people look down on you because you believe in God?

Do you think religion is vital for humanity? Could its role be replaced by anything else?

Have you ever questioned your faith?

Do you ever get frustrated at religious debate? Do you talk about your faith much?

What is one thing you would like to teach all atheists?

Well, Greek mythology has a God coming down from Mt. Olympus and impregnating a human. Do you scoff at that story, or accept it was a fact?

@longgone
“Have you ever felt that people look down on you because you believe in God?”
No.

“Do you think religion is vital for humanity? ”
Religion, no. God, yes.

“Could its role be replaced by anything else?”
Religion, yes. God, no.

“Have you ever questioned your faith?”
On a regular basis. My questions usually end up getting answered.

“Do you ever get frustrated at religious debate?”
I used to. I’m a bit older now.

“Do you talk about your faith much?”
Not nearly as much as I should.

“What is one thing you would like to teach all atheists?”
How to play the piano? If they already know how..maybe they can teach me some songs.

@Dutchess_III
“Well, Greek mythology has a God coming down from Mt. Olympus and impregnating a human. Do you scoff at that story, or accept it was a fact?”
The differences between my beliefs and greek mythology are many. I neither scoff nor accept it as fact. I also don’t believe in santa or the flying spaghetti monster.

From where I sit, I don’t see much difference between Greek mythology and Christianity. They both perpetuate stories that can’t possibly be true. I know you feel it’s dangerous for me to think that way, but I’m not worried.. In fact, I would hazard a guess that Christianity is just cobbled together from several, far more ancient religions. Christianity just borrowed stories from them all. There are so many similarities between the Greek myths and Christianity, that I believe the Greek myths played a heavy had in shaping Christianity as we know it today.

How much do you know about other religions and beliefs?

What aspects of other religions and beliefs do you agree or disagree with? (In other words, why Christianity in particular?)

@fluthernutter
“How much do you know about other religions and beliefs?”
I know enough to know that some of the basics are very similar in quite a few of them. Believing that God exists alone is a step farther than many choose to travel. Do you believe God exists?

“What aspects of other religions and beliefs do you agree or disagree with?”
I agree that God exists. Historical documentation believes Jesus existed. That, alone, is a cornerstone that many belief systems don’t have.

”(In other words, why Christianity in particular?)”
Because I’ve found no fault in it.

I said I would not bite on this question with the intent of shaking your faith, and I am not.

I genuinely want to know your take:
“How do you reconcile Creationism and Evolution?”
I bought a book today that’s an agnostic’s search for religion. I’ll read it after my current read.

@ibstubro
“How do you reconcile Creationism and Evolution?”
Genesis makes far more sense to me than abiogenesis. Scientific work built on such a shaky foundation requires just as much faith as belief in God. We are forced to be taught evolution (as an answer to our origins) in the same environment where it’s “not cool” to pray. It’s no surprise that so many grow up accepting it as de facto.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One
Do you believe God exists?
I’m not against believing that a god exists. I just don’t believe that God exists. And even if he did exist—based on the story of Job alone—he’s not a god that seems deserving of my faith and devotion.

That, alone, is a cornerstone that many belief systems don’t have.
I think there’s historical evidence that both Buddha and Ghandi existed. Which religion or belief system did you mean?

Because I’ve found no fault in it.
I respect that you’re Christian. I could understand that you’ve chosen this belief system because despite its faults, it resonates with you for some reason in particular. Perhaps in a way that other religions do not. But I think stating that you find no fault in it is kind of crazy.
I intend that in the least disrespectful way as possible.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “Scientific work built on such a shaky foundation ”

Why do you define it as a “shaky foundation”?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Fair enough. But please note I was not accusing your parents of brainwashing you. I just find it curious that religion is so often familial. My parents’ inevitable disappointment held me back from leaving the church for some time. Not because I was scared of them or I wasn’t permitted differing points of view, but because I love them and didn’t want to hurt them.

@fluthernutter
“Which religion or belief system did you mean?”
Buddhism and Hinduism aren’t really religions so much as they are anti-religions. There are some good principals (like the golden rule), but they have no “source” as it were. E.G. Hinduism will accept pretty much any God you want – pretty wishy washy if you ask me.

“But I think stating that you find no fault in it is kind of crazy.”
It’s nothing less than accurate. Bear in mind that I’m not speaking on behalf of every Christian denomination that exists. Nor am I talking about some of the extra details that we humans love to squabble over. I’m talking about the basic message.

Historically, they’ve murdered some people who were “crazy” – sometimes finding out later that they were right. I’m not claiming to have all the answers. I just think it wise to not become dismissive of perspectives contrary to your own.

@dappled_leaves
“Why do you define it as a “shaky foundation”?”
Because there is still no attempt to explain the true origin (life springing from non-living stuff still doesn’t explain where the initial non-living stuff came from).

Because there is still no attempt to explain the true origin (life springing from non-living stuff still doesn’t explain where the initial non-living stuff came from).….and this is where Christian magic comes in. For life to come from non-living proteins, it must have been through magic. It couldn’t have happened naturally.

@Dutchess_III
Faith is not magic despite how much you seem to want to equate the two.

Either way, my point had nothing to do with life coming from non-life. It was more about non-life coming from absolutely nothing.

“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” – or perhaps “magic”.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “Because there is still no attempt to explain the true origin”

Evolution is not about explaining a “true origin”. It is only about explaining the modification of species over time.

“life springing from non-living stuff still doesn’t explain where the initial non-living stuff came from”

But then, why do you not reject Creationism for the same reason? Is there an explanation for where God came from?

Withholding my next questions so he has time to answer one at a time. GQ, @dappled_leaves.

@dappled_leaves
I’m aware of what evolution theories attempt to explain. My point is that its roots are planted in nothing. At some point in time, some non-living material popped into existence via “magic”.

“But then, why do you not reject Creationism for the same reason? Is there an explanation for where God came from?”
This question is invalid. It presumes that God conforms to our understanding of time. I don’t believe He does. I believe He always was and always will be.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “My point is that its roots are planted in nothing.”

But the origin of life is not a “root” of evolution. It is a separate question entirely. One can accept that evolution occurs and causes speciation without addressing the origin of life. Certainly one can test for and experiment with evolution without addressing the origin of life. We could do no work in biology otherwise.

“I believe He always was and always will be.”

Turtles all the way down, I see. But this means you are prepared to suspend disbelief (or at least your own lack of knowledge of the beginning of things – “he doesn’t conform to our understanding”) in order to accept one origin story. Why that specific origin story, and not any other?

@fluthernutter And even if he did exist—based on the story of Job alone—he’s not a god that seems deserving of my faith and devotion.
Curious, what would a God you found worthy enough to honor and worship look like?

I could understand that you’ve chosen this belief system because despiteits faults,
Faults such as what, and what fixes do you believe would make it better, and how can you, a mere human, make ot better for everyone else?

How do you fit The Crusades into Christian history, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One?
Yes, sorry, I’m entwining 2 similar questions.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One
I just think it wise to not become dismissive of perspectives contrary to your own.
Agreed. Though we should recognize there’s a distinction between being dismissive and being critical.

@Hypocrisy_Central One that is above trying to prove a point to Satan by smiting a devoted believer?

How can you, a mere human, make it better for everyone else?
I think that’s the crux of it. Religion (not God necessarily) was created by mere humans. Inherently, there will be flaws.

@dappled_leaves
“Turtles all the way down, I see.”
What?

“But this means you are prepared to suspend disbelief (or at least your own lack of knowledge of the beginning of things – “he doesn’t conform to our understanding”) in order to accept one origin story.”
It’s not a suspension of disbelief. It is more like an active belief. The former wording has an air of carelessness about it.

“Why that specific origin story, and not any other?”
Scroll up. It was arrived at holistically and empirically.

@ibstubro
“How do you fit The Crusades into Christian history”
The crusades were a complex combination of things – as most wars are. Land, power, and retribution were some stars there. It was an ugly war fought by fallible men. Why? What point are you trying to make?

@fluthernutter One that is above trying to prove a point to Satan by smiting a devoted believer?
That is OK you got it wrong, you don’t know all the details, you even forgot to finish it (that is a mistake non-believers and salad bar Christians make), God restored to Job double of everything that was lost. Job by his faith and obedience got back more than what he lost, you are not the first one to conveniently leave that fact out.

I think that’s the crux of it. Religion (not God necessarily) was created by mere humans. Inherently, there will be flaws.
If we are speaking only of religion and not God, then I am with you as no religion is correct. But because no religion is correct does not make God false or at fault.

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m quite familiar with the ending to the Book of Job. That’s actually the part that unsettles me the most. It doesn’t matter how many more children Job may have had. It could never replace the ones that he lost. You can replace wealth. You can’t replace children. If I were Job, I’d rather He just have put me out of my mortal misery. God’s “reward” was an insult to injury.

@Hypocrisy_Central Agreed. Though the original question is
I’m a Christian. AMA
And not I believe in God. AMA.

^ It doesn’t matter how many more children Job may have had. It could never replace the ones that he lost.
Ahhhh…..he may not have had those children here on the Earth after that, but they will be with him in eternity, and with the younger children as well, so he will have double children long after the “stuff” is long gone. To those who are not in the family death is death, but to those in the family death has no sting, one doesn’t really die, when I breath my last here and shed this tent of flesh, I will be in eternity where life will truly begin.

The first of the Crusades began in 1095, when armies of Christians from Western Europe responded to Pope Urban II’s plea to go to war against Muslim forces in the Holy Land.

What part of “armies of Christians” do you not have a problem with @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One?

Intersting that “Buddhism and Hinduism aren’t really religions” in your view because they focus on individual self improvement over proselytization. Christians and Muslims (among others) aren’t “wishy-washy” because they are willing to take lives to promote spread of their religion.

@ibstubro
So far you’ve equated my beliefs to that of the Westboro family and Crusaders from a millennia ago who were at war. In your “crusade” to vilify my faith, it seems you want to find anything bad that a Christian has done (and use that as proof that Christian beliefs are wrong).

Applying this “logic” (as I had to bring up in another question as well) we are all rapists if even one human is. It’s not correct and it feels like a waste of time explaining that repeatedly.

So, what happens to the people who don’t accept Christ into their lives? And what is God going to do about all the millions and billions of people who lived before Christ ever existed (if he existed) and all the millions and billions of people who never even got the chance to hear the “Good News?” They all going to hell?

The Crusades were not the Lord’s Army, they were the Pope’s army. Unless God spoke to the Pope and told him to send the armies, it wasn’t God. When God sends His people to war, He gives a purpose….. He is not GW Bush.

@Dutchess_III So, what happens to the people who don’t accept Christ into their lives? And what is God going to do about all the millions and billions of people who lived before Christ ever existed (if he existed) and all the millions and billions of people who never even got the chance to hear the “Good News?” They all going to hell?
The Bible speaks of two places the soul waits until Judgment, Hades (or Sheol) and Abraham’s bosom, the former for unbelievers and the latter for believers of God. In EPHESIANS 4:7–9 is the clearest indication of the provision that when Christ descended to Hades after the crucifixion that time before He reclaimed His body and walked from the grave, He made known to all those who rejected Him or never knew Him that He was the mighty I Am, and whoever recognized and accepted that were going to leave the grave with Him, those who rejected were going to be there and face the Judgment. God desires to see none perish, but you can take the horse to the Living Water, but you can’t make him drink.

This is just ridiculous. They are stories that, if they were told in the context of another religion, you would view as laughable. As laughable as Santa literally coming down a chimney.

When we die, we’re dead. There is no second chance. End of story. So you need to live your life for now, value every minute, make those around you happy, because the only life after death will be in the memories of the people around you, and what they have to say about you.

Consider it. Would you change your behavior?

@Dutchess_III
“So, what happens to the people who don’t accept Christ into their lives? ”
Hell.

“And what is God going to do about all the millions and billions of people who lived before Christ ever existed (if he existed) ...”
They waited for the Crucifixion to occur, then went to heaven (if they were believers).

”...and all the millions and billions of people who never even got the chance to hear the “Good News?” They all going to hell?”

Pretty much your exact question has already been asked in the Bible.

—ROM 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?—

—1 Samuel 16:7
 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.—

I believe God knows who has and has not heard. I even believe He brings babies who’ve died to heaven.

As far as the whole “we’re dead and that’s it” thing: I don’t believe you. I believe there’s more.

It may have been asked, but there was no reasonable answer given.

I wish there was more. I really do. That’s the part I miss most, really. But….if a dog dies and that’s it, then that’s it for me, too. I’m no more special than a dog. I’m a great ape with a pretty good brain, and that’s all.

@Dutchess_III
Well, I think you’re more special than a dog..and I have a pug..so it means a lot lol

:D Well, maybe I’m more special than a PUG! I have a German Shepherd. She’s special.

@Dutchess_III I’m no more special than a dog.
Again, lack of knowledge, MATTHEW 6:26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?, and Luke 12:24
Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? tells me different. Sorry you bought into the lie the Tempter has spread. I do not know if dogs are going to heaven any more than wildebeest because neither has sin because they are not outside of the will and design God designed them to do, and worshiping Him was not part of their design. But if I had to look at the fact that it took blood to atone for sin, and animals served that purpose before the crucifixion they have no souls otherwise the sacrifice would have been something other than animals.

Well, you’re putting a whole lot of importance on some long dead philosopher’s thoughts on the matter. You are taking all of it literally, where as I just see it as silly. Silly to think that Jesus walked on water, or rose from the dead after 3 days, or that Mary got pg in any way other than the regular way. Silly to think Jesus is going to run through hell fixing everyone. Silly to think blood is anything more than blood. It’s mythology.

From my experiences in life it would be silly not to believe.

Why?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One From my life experience it would be INSANE to believe! From what you find silly, it would also be silly to not believe in Santa Claus, Casper the friendly ghost, witches, goblins, the tooth fairy. the Easter bunny, etc., etc., etc.

And unicorns.

I think this question was well-intended. Could we curb ourselves a bit before it fully de-evolves*?

Thanks!

Okay, so I get devolve isn’t the opposite of evolve. But it really should be! So much more useful that the correct meaning of devolve…in my opinion anyway.

So, back to my question…why do you think it would be “silly” for you to not believe, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One?

From my experiences in life it would be silly not to believe.
1,000,000 lurve for that, if it were possible. I would rather be in a throne cleaner for God eternally than live like 1,000 kings here and end up forever doomed through all eternity. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God, even when you do not believe .

So it’s not that it’s silly to not believe…you feel it’s dangerous to not believe.

So it’s not that it’s silly to not believe…you feel it’s dangerous to not believe.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me I KNOW it is dangerous to reject God. This morning many people left their homes believing they were going to come home, put in the news and have some mac & cheese and for whatever reason won’t make it, they will be dead by midnight. We are all going to exit this world; we have no choice in that. where we spend eternity, that we do have a choice of. I am not going to spend eternity with Santa and he has no power to doom me to an eternity with the Devil and his imps. To not believe is as smart as standing in a full hey barn flicking matches thinking the hay will never burn. Since I do not know the moment of my death, to be a moment without God means a heartbeat away from damnation.

Ok. Well, I’ve been there, but I never felt that I was in any danger from him. I’m sorry your god is all hellfire and damnation. Mine wasn’t.

[…but I never felt that I was in any danger from him. I’m sorry your god is all hellfire and damnation. Mine wasn’t.
The danger is not from Him, it is from not choosing him. His is not about fire and brimstone; He is about love, reconciliation, forgiveness, and much more. What you speak of is a byproduct of not accepting the exit strategy, like those people on the Poseidon who stayed in the ballroom rather than head for the stern, their death was by their decision to mistakenly believe they were safe where they were. Why do you let it worry you so? Just go on and live your life, since you believe you will be gone to who knows where, if anyplace when you die, live it up to the fullest now.

It’s all about the logic, @Hypocrisy_Central, that’s all. The logic and the science.

^ It’s all about the logic, @Hypocrisy_Central, that’s all. The logic and the science.
Sure, then they short circuit any logic trying to use some morality which is nothing but popular opinion or emotion in it.

“Sure, then they short circuit any logic trying to use some morality which is nothing but popular opinion or emotion in it.” I’m sorry HC….that didn’t really make sense to me. Could you explain please?

“Sure, then they short circuit any logic trying to use some morality which is nothing but popular opinion or emotion in it.” I’m sorry HC….that didn’t really make sense to me. Could you explain please?
Well, we have gone over this in other threads but I guess it still got missed. If it were really about logic emotion or the fear of appearing immoral would not play into it, because that would not be logical. For instance, let’s look at those deemed mentally diminished (for lack of a better word), the logical thing would be to do with them as the Spartans would, get rid of them. Logically they take up too many resources and time for any value they return to society. No one would think of that because of emotion or it would seem heartless and immoral. It would be illogical to give a prisoner life because again, they would take up too many resources as oppose to the gain society would get back. The logical thing would be to get rid of the load but profit at the same time. That can be done in several ways; you could pit them against themselves in the arena and charge admission via Pay-Per-View etc. to see it. People can buy a shot at X amount a shot to see if they can be the one-man firing squad at 300 meters, etc. Then the criminal that heinous is removed from being a ward of the state at the same time the state profited off the elimination; thus recovering the cost of care up to the time of death, and exercising a profit, that is logical. It won’t happen because people do not want to seem as heartless or bloodthirsty either because of their own egos or how history would view them. Those are just two of many areas.

@kritiper

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God…

@Dutchess_III
“Why”
– Because I don’t believe that life came from nothing. It’s as wrong as 0=1 to me.

- Because of the purity and the purpose that comes with knowing we aren’t just animals randomly wandering the earth.

- Because I can look out my window and see 2–3 separate mini-biomes living in perfect harmony..the result of something so beautiful and organized that I actually feel real, unfettered joy..it’s not meaningless..

- Because when I am being faithful to God I feel a peace which cannot be described adequately..

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

- Because of the potent benevolence I’ve witnessed in the church..the forgiveness, mercy, and unrivaled love that exists there..

Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

- Because I’ve lived in sin and never felt so despondent, and I’ve lived for God and never felt so alive

James 4:8 – Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

- Because I know that if everyone were an active, God fearing Christian things like rape, murder, pedophilia, and racism would not exist.

- Because the Bible says I will be persecuted for my beliefs and I am.

2 Timothy 3:12— Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

- Because I’ve been utterly broken and felt hopeless, and I’ve reached a low point so dark and brooding that I thought I’d never escape it, and I’ve done things that I thought I’d never be forgiven for, but now (unthinkably) I’m really happy. Not the kind of happy you are when your favorite sports teams wins. but really, really happy..

Psalm 147:3— He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.

Psalm 103:12 – As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

- Because I prayed for weeks that I would meet the right woman to marry. I met her on day one of college ..she was singing (of all things) a praise song..19 years later I still thank God for her.

Proverbs 5:18 – Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

- Because I look at my kids and I know.

- Because I’ve accomplished things in my life that I never thought I’d be able to.

Phillipians 4:13 – I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

- Because I’m nowhere near alone in this experience

@Hypocrisy_Central Thanks. But you are conflating two different issues. When it comes to the Bible, and the Bible stories, I disregard them as physical, scientific impossibilities.

When it comes to social structure, of course you use empathy and emotions to guide your behaviors toward your fellow human beings.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “Because I don’t believe that life came from nothing. It’s as wrong as 0=1 to me.”….But according to you that’s exactly what God did, made a full fledged, highly complex mammal, a Great Ape, out of…. nothing.

The science of it, Abiogenesis “is the natural process of life arising from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.” DNA is “just” nucleic acid; alongside proteins and carbohydrates. By themselves, nucleic acid, proteins and carbohydrates are not living.

@Dutchess_III
I’m not sure why abiogenesis is what you pulled out of all that, but..it still doesn’t explain an origin. No science book does.

This makes no sense to me:
“Nothing” turned into non-life, non-life turned into life

Sorry. Here.

Science books put out theories that are always subject to change if the evidence warrants it.

”“Nothing” turned into non-life, non-life turned into life” but that’s what you believe! You believe Jesus was DEAD for 3 days then rose from the dead. You believe Mary was a virgin. You believe he made blind people see, by magic. Yet you poo poo science as an impossibility?

Abiogen theory begins with molecules.. where did those molecules come from, where did the “organic compounds” come from?

I don’t believe that nothing turned into something. In comparing my thought process to that you are essentially saying that God is nothing. It’s an invalid point no matter how much I like you. :)

Molecules come from combinations of atoms. Atoms are “composed of a nucleus and one or more electrons bound to the nucleus. The nucleus is made of one or more protons and typically a similar number of neutrons (none in hydrogen-1). Protons and neutrons are called nucleons.”

More Lots of links to follow

Here is a picture of the periodic table.
Every single thing on this earth is made by combinations of these few basic elements, which were created by massive nuclear reactions in the early stars in the early galaxy. We are stardust.

I said that you are saying God made living things out of nothing, while on the other hand you fundamentally reject that as a physical possibility.

You’re still talking about combining elements though. Where did those elements come from?

Molecules come from combinations of atoms. Atoms are “composed of a nucleus and one or more electrons bound to the nucleus. The nucleus is made of one or more protons and typically a similar number of neutrons (none in hydrogen-1). Protons and neutrons are called nucleons.”
Where did they come from, how did they come about, and is there anything smaller than them, if so how small, and can scientist say what is the smallest amount of matter, and what made all this random matter decide to cobble into the many different elements that there are instead of all following the same path of development? What caused them to diversify?

I told you. The elements were created in unbelievable massive and powerful nuclear explosions at the center of ancient suns as they super novaed (sp).

Yes, Quarks are smaller than atoms. See here.

Also, might check out the Large Hadron Collider. Fascinating.

But things don’t just explode lol. Where did the ingredients for that explosion come from?

And what is smaller than Quarks, and what is smaller than them, and so one until you get to where you can’t go any smaller? Then, when we get there, how did whatever that was get there?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One In what way(s) are you persecuted for your beliefs?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One I’ll answer the question “Where did the ingredients for that explosion come from?” and “Where did those elements come from?”
For the countless eons of unknown billions of “Big Bangs” that might have taken place before the most recent one scientists claim brought our present universe forth, they have always been here. No “God” made them.
To say that some entity had to make them for them to be here, if I understand your logic correctly, dismisses the same question you might have or that I might respond back to you with: Where did this God of yours come from? If all of the elements and ingredients mentioned had to have been “made,” then God himself had to have been made as well. So what made God? (This rhetorical question has no end, really. It just goes on and on…)
FYI: quoting bible verses is quite useless and proves nothing since man wrote and interpreted/translated any and all bibles.

@kritiper For the countless eons of unknown billions of “Big Bangs” that might have taken place before the most recent one scientists claim brought our present universe forth,…]
They were not around back then (the scientist) did they find a flight data recorder recording the 1st big bang or any in between? How many were there, since they don’t know, how about a range, 20,000–150,000 etc.? What was the very 1st big bang made of? Still no one answered when you get down to where you can’t go any smaller what is there and how it got there?

I was asked to comment on the science.

In terms of elements, many were formed in supernova, some not.
Quarks are members of a zoo of particles. Google “Standard Model”
Abiogenesis is not yet understood.

I wish Realeyes were on this thread. The anti-science people are looking just frankly ignorant, and it’s a little sad. I hate debating ignorance. Realeyes could rescue them—especially on the topic of abiogenesis. But if I were him, I’d leave them to hang on their own petards. He and I disagree on several things, but one thing I can say about him is that he’s definately NOT ignorant. He’s a pleasure to spar with.

Dutch, you’re doing fine.

@augustlan
Need I even respond? :)
So far I’m ignorant, insane, silly, and stupid for believing. And that’s just in this thread.(granted, I’m not being whipped or hung)

@kritiper
Finally. So we’re down to either:
A: God always was
or
B: Ingredients always existed

Our question above could have been answered that easily. There was no need for the patronizing, verbosity that resulted.

I choose option “A” as a hollistic belief. I gave @Dutchess_III some of my other reasons which were, by and large, ignored so we could talk about abiogen again.

Assuming that God had to be created is a close-minded, limiting, non-spiritual response. It’s like comparing God to some more random matter floating around. I believe there’s more to Him than that.

So, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. you invited us to ask questions about your faith, but anything that puts it in a negative light is a personal attack? Even recorded history (The Crusades) and fellow believers (Westboro Baptist) get your back up. patronizing, verbosity

I totally get the “A” or “B” argument with the exception that it should be stipulated:
Ingredients of life have always existed.
A.) Those ingredients are the embodiment of an entity known as God
B.) Those ingredients were naturally occurring.

If God encompasses all matter, then to say he micro manages our lives is to say that within our own bodies our brain is micromanaging the cells of, say, a melanoma. God would have to equate with nature as 99.999…% of the universe is untouched by man, and healthy. As far as we know, only the Earth has been artificially sickened, and that because:

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

Monotheistic religions have been, and are, away for people of a like mind to band together and do illogical things that benefit the group against the best interests of the species/environment. What could embody God better than nature? And yet…

@ibstubro
“So,@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. you invited us to ask questions about your faith, but anything that puts it in a negative light is a personal attack?”

Not at all. It would be nice,though, if some could disagree without being exasperated and referring to my beliefs using negatively slanted vocabulary. You won’t find me referring to you as ignorant, silly, crazy, or stupid. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the same in return.

” Monotheistic religions have been, and are, away for people of a like mind to band together and do illogical things that benefit the group against the best interests of the species/environment.”

This is a huge generalization. I’m not sure what illogical things I’ve banded with people to do.

@osoraro Abiogenesis is not yet understood.
You are going to follow something some men made up that neither of you fully understand, as to know if it is even true. Guess you are exercising some faith, huh? Talk about looking ”just frankly ignorant, and it’s a little sad”. The thing is, what I put my faith into, I know how it works, I am not waiting around for someone to figure it out. I don’t hate science, science manifest everything God has done. Man might be able to figure some of it out, but he can rarely replicate any of it. Can man make gravity? If he is going to have stations and colonies in space one day, I think he better future that one out. Can he turn Carbon dioxide into air like plants in the same efficient way they do it? Can man instill the sonar ability that bats have to the point they can fly blind, no computers, no GPS and know exactly where they are going, to the blind that they might have freedom of movement? Science figures to know a lot of stuff and how it works, but can’t do none of it. It is like having bread, peanut butter, jam, a knife, having a made PP&J as an example sitting in front of them and still not being able to make the sandwich. The failings of science manifest the foolishness of man to think they can out do the one who created all that they study, that would be like your 4 year old child thinking he/she can do the family budget better than you.

_@Realeyes could rescue them—especially on the topic of abiogenesis. _
Ohhhh…..so he was around when God created it? Maybe you should send the rest of the scientist that don’t fully understand it, as you said, to him so he can bone them up on the process. If he knows no more than them, he can’t save me from squat. I could say I can send the Spirit to save you but Old Slew Foot has gotten you convinced that the listing of the ship is nothing to be concerned over, stay in the great hall, have some drinks, ignore those fools headed for the lifeboats…..so…..

But if I were him, I’d leave them to hang on their own petards.
I would rather hang then have to bend my knee before the entity that created everything and have to explain myself. It will be too late, but at least you will know the error of your ways.

Wait…wait! God created abiogenesis??? Is that what you just said, @Hypocrisy_Central?

Also, you are confusing the willingness of a scientist to admit they don’t know something yet as tho it is some sort of weakness. It isn’t. It’s the other side of curiosity.

I think that’s the thing that believers have the hardest time with. They have themselves convinced that the stories in the Bible actually answer their questions and it is a sin to question any of it, no matter how illogical it may be (Noah’s ark, for example.) That’s why they have to be so certain. They HAVE to be. Since they are certain (even though they are wrong) they view human uncertainty as a weakness.

^ Wait…wait! God created abiogenesis??? Is that what you just said, @Hypocrisy_Central?
I do not know what man believes it is, I did not look it up as it was it that important. However, I will say that everything in this known dimension has been created by God, that which man has had the privilege to understand, and many other things he doesn’t.

Also, you are confusing the willingness of a scientist to admit they don’t know something yet as tho it is some sort of weakness. It isn’t. It’s the other side of curiosity.
No more than someone thinking believe and faith in something is ignorance simply because it cannot be seen, measured, felt, smelled, heard, or weighed by man’s conventional methods. I was commenting on an erroneous comment made. My say on that is people have faith, the difference is if one places their faith in something they know has a probability to a high probability to actually be wrong, even if they are dead and will never know it and those who place faith in something that will not be wrong, and will certainly be proven when they die.

You have attacked it in every way possible, marriage, God hating women, bad saints, etc. etc. if you refuse to believe, live your life as you feel, thinking nothing you do will have any consequence once you die. To try to prove there is no God, you are wasting valuable time because the time all of are here in actuality is lighter than vapor. Go get the most out of it because this, by your belief, is all you are ever going to have.

I understand how you feel. I might have been making the same arguments a few years ago.

I don’t think I attacked marriage, or suggested God hates women and bad saints (bad saints?) etc. Maybe someone else, not me. I also never said any thing about ignorance.

I’m not trying to “prove” anything. I’m just answering a question. Speaking of, I’ll get back on track with my next comment on @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One‘s question.

So, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Do you believe the earth is around 6,000 years old?

@Dutchess_III I don’t think I attacked marriage, or suggested God hates women and bad saints (bad saints?) etc. Maybe someone else, not me. I also never said any thing about ignorance.
I retract my statement, there was a lot said and the closest you came, by the phrasing was that believing in Christ was not ignorant but more like lunacy. Still, I would suggest you follow your own logic: ”When we die, we’re dead. There is no second chance. End of story. So you need to live your life for now, value every minute”,…] you do have it right in part, you only get one chance, and if you live it for you, then you better whoop it up and enjoy because this is all you will have, and as good as it will ever be, because eternity is going to be no fun at all.

I never even said it was lunacy. I did say that you guys hold fast to your beliefs in the events described in the bible, even when they are obviously impossible.

@Dutchess_III
In short, I don’t know. I also don’t believe we’ll ever find out. There are tons of interesting theories on the subject.

ECC 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Oh, I think science has answered the question pretty well.

Do you really believe the Noah’s Ark story? (When I was a practicing Christian, I didn’t believe it literally. I figured there was some local flood at some point, back in history, and somebody managed to save some goats or something, and the story just grew from there.)

—Abiogenesis is not yet understood.
You are going to follow something some men made up that neither of you fully understand, as to know if it is even true—

Um…no. The fact that it is not understood is a mystery of biochemistry. The study of that is called—wait a minute, the word is just on the tip of my tongue. It’s called, SCIENCE!

You can take anything you don’t understand and just say “God did it.” That’s fine. But if everybody did that throughout history and took that fatalistic approach, then you’d still be living in a cave until the ripe old age of 33 where you’d die of some disease.

https://alittlebitleft.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/thingsexplainedbyscienceorgod.jpg?w=700

@Dutchess_III The Flood Myth is interesting. Many cultures have it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

@osoraro You can take anything you don’t understand and just say “God did it.”
You can also take things you don’t understand because it can’t be measured, seen, weighed, etc. by conventional means and call it magic, but I guess X-ray, radio, and other things would be void from that cave you speak of. Just because science don’t care to use the correct antennae to tap into the Source, doesn’t mean it is not there. Radio waves have always been here, even when the pyramids were being built, no one had the means to discover it. The mysteries of the universe is there, sorry if you have the wrong antennae to know where they came from.

Of course. I’m perfectly willing to accept the scientific hypothesis that your god is behind abiogenesis, or the Big Bang, or the Plank length, or the GEV energy of the Higgs boson, or the speed of light. So, prove it. That’s what science does.

If someone can show me verifiable reproducible, well designed evidence that a deity is involved with this, then I will be first in line in your God parade.

The following quote is from Tim Minchin’s Storm, (link below) He’s talking about homeopathy, but you can substitute the same concept for God. He has a lot of songs about God too. Here is my favorite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

Anyway, here is the quote:

“Science adjusts its views based on what’s observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I will spin on a fucking dime
I’ll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It’s a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it!

You show me that it works and how it works
And when I’ve recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve “Fancy That” on the side of my cock.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrgFIlnmrGk

@Dutchess_III
“Oh, I think science has answered the question pretty well.”
How so? Mankind just barely completed a century of flight and we know what happened a few billion years ago? I think that’s a faith filled belief.

“Do you really believe the Noah’s Ark story?”
Yes.

Do you find that it’s necessary to believe any of the Bible’s more fanciful stories (the flood, Sampson’s long hair super powers, and the entire book of Genesis to name a few) to get to Heaven? I would think that Christianity’s core message peace and love via Jesus and the New Testament would be enough.

Jesus and Barney the Purple Dinosaur have a lot in common. They both taught the same kind and gentle message and they both are viciously attacked by folks that don’t like them.

@Blondesjon
“Do you find that it’s necessary to believe any of the Bible’s more fanciful stories (the flood, Sampson’s long hair super powers, and the entire book of Genesis to name a few) to get to Heaven?”
The bible is very clear on how to get to heaven. I’d elaborate, but I’m sure you’d find my answer “fanciful”.

I’ve learned over the years to type less to those who approach the discussion with disdain. (especially when I’m on mobile)

I’m missing where you are getting disdain from a contextually appropriate adjective. Maybe I need to ask differently to get an answer and not a “chip on the shoulder” response. Let’s try this tack.

I know that the only way to get to Heaven is to admit that you are a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior. This, at least, is the way it was explained to me during my humble days as a member of the Methodist church (best after church potlucks ever). I was wondering if, in your belief system, that literal acceptance of every page of the Bible was necessary to achieve this or if the way we Methodists did it was sufficient?

Do you find that it’s necessary to believe any of the Bible’s more fanciful stories (the flood, Sampson’s long hair super powers, and the entire book of Genesis to name a few) to get to Heaven? I would think that Christianity’s core message peace and love via Jesus and the New Testament would be enough.¬
Not knowing if @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One is mobile or not, the way I see it is belief in those parts of scripture will not save you, neither just following the 10 Commandments (no one can keep them 100% anyhow, and if you can’t then you are doomed already), Christ is the only Gate the sheep will enter. However, how can you believe in Christ if you don’t believe what He wrote? Once you start saying this part is false and that part is wrong, how do you know which is true? A part that may lead you or keep you in Christ to save your soul you would miss thinking it a lie. It would be like going through the Constitution and saying this amendment is not true, we can ignore that, this article is only half true, so we will follow it this way, etc. Eventually it would be meaningless because you would not know which is supposed to be followed and which parts are not.

Jesus didn’t write any part of the Bible. He was written about.

” I was wondering if, in your belief system, that literal acceptance of every page of the Bible was necessary to achieve this or if the way we Methodists did it was sufficient?”
I believe HC’s answer covers it.

As far as the “chip on the shoulder” I apologize. After reading a great number of sarcastic, derogatory responses, I suppose I got lulled into a “here we go again” mentality. This type of misunderstanding is a perfect example of why I detest facebook.

But how do you explain things for which there is no explanation? The Ark….the logistics of it are impossible! And Christianity has changed over the last 30 years, from denying that dinosaur’s ever existed, to saying that they did and Noah put 2 of each species on the ark. And that’s just dinosaurs. I assume God made it so that the carnivores didn’t want to run around in the 150 yards they had open to them, and eat all the cows and goats and stuff, and the goats and stuff had no desire to run from the carnivores. No, there was no panic and carnage and mayhem for those 30 days and 30 nights, riding up and down waves in a massive storm.

It’s things like this, those questions above, that blows my mind when intelligent, thinking adults continue to insist on holding on to a literal belief in the ark story.

“But how do you explain things for which there is no explanation? The Ark….the logistics of it are impossible!”
The folks on the outside of the ark thought Noah was crazy too..until the flood came. Then it was too late.

The logistics aren’t as impossible as you think.

In what way are they not as impossible? Please explain logically how the animals didn’t run amok in fear and hunger and confusion.
Please explain logically how two of every single species in the world fit into the length 1 and a half times the size of a football field?
Please explain how animals from different continents wound up in the ark?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One I think that these are the kinds of logistical problems that @Dutchess_III is talking about.

Ha ha ha ha! “I’m a hermaphrodite!” in a Monty Python accent!

That was great @Dappled Leaves! Thanks. ;D

Rosselini is so good in these, it’s a pleasure to share. :)

@Cupcake Damn my misplaced apostrope!

I feel bad because these questions have no answer. I’m not trying to pick on you @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. These are exactly the kinds of questions I’d ask fundamental Christians, when I was a Christian, no sarcasm involved because I really wondered if they have an answer. They never did, beyond that fact that God changed he animals natural tendencies during the voyage…aka magic. I know you don’t like that word, but what else would you call it?

@Dutchess_III Is that really unfair? It’s never wrong to say “I don’t know” when one doesn’t know. I thought the point of this question was to ask questions about @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One‘s opinions and experiences, not to hold him accountable for all of Christianity.

At some point, every one of our lines of questioning will necessarily be met with an “I take that on faith”. That’s kind of the point of religion in general.

In the same way, the endpoint for non-believer would be either “This is the scientific consensus” or “I don’t know”. All of these are honest answers.

I don’t think it’s unfair. I just have no desire to make any one uncomfortable, which I did many times during my Christian “walk,” until I just shut down with the questions all together.

I know this could make him uncomfortable (and HC angry!) but…he did say “AMA..”

I am a Jew. I am also an atheist. Here are things I am going to posit:

1) Moses never existed
2) The Jews were never in Egypt
3) Jesus never existed
4) The Bible is a work of fiction written by men making up stories that charitably was an effort to explain the world around us and uncharitably in an attempt to give people some fiction to believe in when times were bad and to control their lives.
5) People who blatantly ignore science such as Young Earth Creationists are either
a) stupid, or b) ignorant. Or both.

There. Discuss.

AHA! (Ask Him Anything.)

@Dutchess_III
” In what way are they not as impossible? Please explain logicallyhow the animals didn’t run amok in fear and hunger and confusion. 
Please explain logically how two of every single species in the world fit into the length 1 and a half times the size of a football field?
Please explain how animals from different continents wound up in the ark?”

There are a great deal of videos and texts showing how it did work as well. We could re-hash all of that material but it hardly seems productive. Suffice it to say, we disagree. You are more than welcome to believe what you choose to.

People are entitled to their beliefs. They are not entitled to the facts.

@osoraro
You know all the facts?

I feel bad because these questions have no answer.
The questions have answers, those hell bent on not believing at any cost would not see it if it were before them as large as the K2 summit.

No of course not. But I don’t make up an imaginary sky daddy to fill in the blanks.

Both of you insist there are answers to my question, but so far I have not received any answers. Nothing has changed.
—It’s “sky momma” @osoraro. Sheesh.”

@Dutchess_III
The question has been answered many many times .
I’m not sure why you want me to rewrite it all.

As a side note: the last couple posts are examples of the disdain that makes conversation futile. It actually helps affirm my beliefs, but it’s not necessary.

I’m really starting to see why lots of Christians have left here. I won’t. But I can see why they would find it fruitless.

I am not mocking anyone or their beliefs. Why do you mock mine?

^^ Both of you insist there are answers to my question, but so far I have not received any answers.
You got answers, but just because they did not fit the reality you want, or support the cause you believe in anyhow, the answer good be before you as big as the Moon, and you will reject it and be as ignorant as someone who believes there is a Sky Daddy, now that is ridiculous.

Run on sentence. Made no sense.

Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away. Philip K. Dick.

Well you’ve certainly stopped believing in God (if you ever started)..and He exists.. so all in all I agree with that quote.

You got answers, but just because they did not fit the reality you want, or support the cause you believe in anyhow, the answer good be before you as big as the Moon, and you will reject it and be as ignorant as someone who believes there is a Sky Daddy, now that is ridiculous.

If we’re all being 100% honest with ourselves doesn’t this statement cover both sides of the argument.

remember: 100% honest with ourselves

All that means is that we’re all biased in some way..which of course we are.

If we’re all being 100% honest with ourselves doesn’t this statement cover both sides of the argument.
If it were not for things I personally experienced I would say the same thing. But for the sake of argument I can say even if (and not a real if) God was not true, I lived out a good live where I had peace and was amiable to my fellow man, so even if God did not exist, I would never know it. However, if I lived as there was no God, to die and discover there is a God, what a tragedy that would be, because I would know I was dead and it would be too late to do anything about it. Since I am not really missing anything by following God, call it erring on the side of goodness, but the logic, even devoid of the Spirit makes better sense.

@Hypocrisy_Central
You’ve almost perfectly described “Pascal’s Wager” (which I think is dangerous). However, I see your point. The concentrated good seems like the obvious choice.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One You’ve almost perfectly described “Pascal’s Wager” (which I think is dangerous).
I have heard people equate it to that. The difference is, those who do not have a relationship with the Father would do it for totally the wrong and selfish reasons, to have “fire insurance”. Their only reason for doing it would be to avoid something bad they feel would come if they did not. To decide to follow God because of what one personally experienced and thus give one the will to want to honor the Father Who has given us so much, to honor Him because He loves and esteems us beyond all others, is no different than a child being obedient to their parents because they respect and love their parents and want to live up to all their parent wants them to be. I am sure you concur. :-)

OK. One question at a time. Simple questions.

How did animals from other continents make it to the ark?

^ How did animals from other continents make it to the ark?
We are talking of the Creator God of the universe who formed Adam of the dust of the Earth, breathe life into him, and he became a living soul. Something like getting animals to the ark would be as if you were asked if you could boil and egg. However, let’s lace a bit of science into it, to make it more palatable. How did man get from Africa where life is supposed to have started all the way down to South America? Somewhere, maybe Alaska, the Lord cause the waters to dip, or the land to rise so there was a natural land bridge in which the animals came over. They had plenty of time to get there. Not that it would be is an answer you could fathom anyhow.

That’s what it always comes down to, “God did it.” However you slice it, it’s “magic.”

And as for human migration, that’s easy enough to explain; They walked. As to how they got to South America specifically? They came over on the Bering land bridge from Asia, 20,000 years ago, and again just 14,000 years ago, during the last two great ice ages. Then they walked across Alaska, and down through Canada, and down through present day North America and down in to Mexico and thence to South America. It wasn’t magic, it was migration, same as we see in other animals today.

The Bering land bridge didn’t magically show up. The ice ages had much of the oceans waters locked up in glaciers, and this exposed the sea floor corridor between Asia and America. The land did not “rise.” It stayed right where it was.

^ That’s what it always comes down to, “God did it.” However you slice it, it’s “magic.”
Like the magic that produced the matter that the Big Bang was supposed to have produced? Or the magic or dumbest of luck that after the Big Bang worked it’s magic, the correct material just happened to be in the right area, under the right condition, in the right amounts that when the lightning bolt (or whatever activated it, they still don’t know) hit it, life came. Then, for no reason this life just kept going for no reason and improving upon itself all on its own, it never really digressed back in the direction it came. And to further the dumbest of luck, out of the entire universe (that is officially known) this freak occurrence only happened here. The universe is littered with comets, asteroids, nebulae, etc. but man is only here, as if this freak of time and space could not be duplicated (with no reason or explanation from scientist). Think I will stick with the power of God, then dumb luck and speculation.

We don’t have the answers to that yet, @Hypocrisy_Central. The thing is, we SAY we don’t have the answers, and we keep looking. We don’t make imaginary stories up, stories with absolutely NOTHING to back them up, to explain it, then gather people in congregations, with a robed priest waving incense, to tell the masses these made up stories, that they better believe, upon pain of hell fire. Oh, and pass the plate.

You yourself mentioned the Bering bridge, suggesting that’s how the animals got to the Ark, but according to your story it had to have happened sometime within the last 6000 years. Absolutely no evidence exists that a massive ice age (which was necessary to expose the land bridge) happened any earlier than 14,000 years ago.

@Dutchess_III
I thought you were agnostic? It certainly sounds like you’re actually an atheist. Either way, you seem to be very concerned with the whole “magic” theme.

The things God has done in my life certainly feel magical at times. I’ll give you that.

I do understand. Many things seemed “magical” in my life too, when I was a practicing Christian. I understand that. “Wow, I can’t believe this good thing happened! It must be God!”
However, nothing has changed since I realized there really isn’t anything beyond what is now. Amazing good things still happen (which I would have attributed to God) and bad things still happen (which I would have attributed to my own dumbass self.) Nothing has changed. Nothing. Life is no better and no worse.

As for the “magic” theme….when I was a Christian it just drove me crazy when I would ask a logical question, praying that they had a logical answer, because I wanted to believe, but the only answer was “Because God.”
“Why didn’t the animals run rampent on the Ark (only the size of 1.5 football fields)?”
“Because God.”

What do you think the difference is between an agnostic and an atheist?

It sounds as if you are closing the door on even the possibility of God existing. It sounds very distinctly like “it’s too ridiculous to ever be true” (which is more than just saying we don’t know)

One thing is for sure for me.. faith is far more than just attributing good things to God. It is far deeper than that.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One No, she’s not. What she’s saying is that the natural world is beautiful and interesting enough to be explained without a God, and the explanations we don’t understand is why we have science. To me it’s FAR cooler to understand thermodynamics, nuclear fusion, and stellar formation in a scientific viewpoint of astrophysics then to say, “God created it.” That’s a lazy intellectual cop-out.

Show good, independently verified, peer reviewed scientific evidence of a deity and I’m perfectly willing to look at it.

I’m not sure if there’s a God or not. But if there is, I think you’re more likely to find Him in science than in the Bible.

Just my take on it.

@fluthernutter
I think you’ll find Him in both.

I know @osoraro. If you want to see “magic,” just take a deep look at the natural world. It’s even more breathtaking in that it can be explained! So blows imaginary magic out of the water.

So far, I haven’t been able to find him in both, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. Lord knows, I’ve looked. I wanted to reconcile them. I really did. But as a practicing Christian I was thwarted and hushed up at every question, at every suggestion of a scientific explanation.

I have yet to tell y’all my story about the anti-evolution seminar I went to long time ago. But it’s kind of long and I just want to copy and paste it, but I can’t find it. Maybe tomorrow.

How many churches did you go to? I’ve never been to one where the pastor wasn’t able (or refused) to answer my questions.

OK, how do you explain the concept that the entire world was populated only one male and one female of our species?

Actually, there are two completely different Creation stories in Genesis, only one of which references Adam and Eve. Which one do you believe in?

Oh, and do you believe that women have one fewer rib than men?

@Dutchess_III So far, I haven’t been able to find him in both, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. Lord knows, I’ve looked.
God in nature:

• An ant come right from birth knowing what their assignment is in the colony, was it a gene, if so, has science found it?
• The sonar bats have that work so well they can fly at full speed and not crash into anything. Even a jet with the best computer aid cannot fly blind as well as a bat.
• Look up on any cloudy day you see 100s if not 1,000s of gallons of flying water, not only is the water flying, it is in a form we can see it and the wind is pushing this water 1,000s of miles inland. When it gets ready, it falls to the Earth, and no matter how deep into the continent it falls, it always makes its way back to the ocean.
• Animals, you take a dog to the groomers, the hair grows back to where it is supposed to be and stops, it will not keep growing like that on the human head.

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Wow. Just wow. I am staggered by the willful ignorance.

The first two questions are answered by 5 billion years of evolution by natural selection.

The third one is called “weather.” Water exists in vapor form and nucleates around aerosolized dust particles and congregates into these things called “clouds”. When the clouds get too dense the dust particles coalesce, the water gets too heavy and is called “rain.” or if it’s cold out, it’s called “snow.”

The 4th one, well, dogs shed their hair, just like people shed their eyebrows or pubic hair.

Wow. Just wow. I am staggered by the willful ignorance.
Yeah, those simplistic and cop out answers certainly show no intelligence for science types.

Clouds don’t “fly.” Birds fly, under power. Clouds are products of evaporation which simply means each individual molecule is lighter than air so they float. Are you thinking clouds are one solid mass? I just wonder because you brought gallons, which I assume = weight, into your comment.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One The question below, which I asked up above, was directed to you, in response to saying you never had a pastor who “wasn’t able (or refused) to answer my questions.”
So how would your pastor answer this?: “how do you explain the concept that the entire world was populated only one male and one female of our species?” You can throw in the incest thing, too, to really befuddle him.

OK, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. Here is why pastors didn’t like answering my questions. It is because I didn’t blindly accept their explanation and asked more questions if their explanation didn’t make sense to me, and they would get frustrated.

Once, in the late 80’s, early 90’s, a couple of Christian friends insisted that I got to a religious seminar that was going to show the impossibility of evolution. They knew my thoughts, knew I had no problem with evolution, and were determined to make me see the light.
So the speaker starts in on one of those silly stories designed to highlight his point.
He said, “As every housewife knows, a house left uncleaned doesn’t clean itself. Dust starts gathering. Things get out of place. Everything gets messy. It Does. Not. Clean. Itself.”
I raised my hand and said, “And eventually everything falls into chaos and stuff starts getting broken!”
He nods enthusiastically.
“And after quite a while, windows can get broken! ”
“Yes! Yes!” he shouted!
“And trees and stuff can start growing in the windows! And eventually all the rain and dirt coming in will cause the floor to cave in! And since they never took care of the roof, it can fall in!””
“YES! Exactly! The whole HOUSE will FALL DOWN!” He said.
I said, “Yeah. And animals will make their homes in it! And vines and vegetation will cover the house, and eventually decompose it into nothing!”
“Yes! Exactly! All because there was no human hand to tend to it!“
The whole congregation was nodding enthusiastically! The Point was Proven!

Pause.

“Well,” I said, “Isn’t that God’s way of cleaning up? Isn’t that how he cleans up dead animals and stuff, too? The house just goes back into the earth. What is wrong with that? I have a feeling that God’s idea of “clean” is different than human’s ideas of clean.”

Silence.

He had no words. He studiously ignored my raised hand after that.

@Dutchess_III Clouds don’t “fly.” Birds fly, under power. Clouds are products of evaporation which simply means each individual molecule is lighter than air so they float. Are you thinking clouds are one solid mass? I just wonder because you brought gallons, which I assume = weight, into your comment.
Float, levitate, drift, call it what you wish, this vapor is water, disassembled to be lighter than air, it is still water because it cobbles itself together and returns to the Earth In original form, unless you have an answer for that? If it were not water, even in vapor form, how could it come down as water, unless that is supposed to be another mystery of evolution? Not being a solid form makes it even more miraculous, this water in molecules stay together so not only can it be seen, it can be moves as a whole unit, not scattered to the four winds like feather would be. If it were not hundreds to thousands of gallons there (even in vapor form), how could there be flooding if the water was not up there to fall and cause it? That whole process is fascinating and perfect, no other chemical in nature or man-made can do that.

“Clouds form from water or ice that has evaporated from Earth’s surface…When it evaporates water is in the form of a gas…Water vapor turns into clouds when it cools and condenses—that is, turns back into liquid water or ice. In order to condense, the water vapor must have a solid to glom onto. This solid “seed” may be a speck of dust or pollen, or a drop of water or crystal of ice….In the cloud, with more water condensing onto other water droplets, the droplets grow. When they get too heavy to stay suspended in the cloud, even with updrafts within the cloud, they fall to Earth as rain.” Link

It’s not magic, it’s science, @Hypocrisy_Central. You really should google sometimes.

@Hypocrisy_Central What you are describing is not a miracle, it is extremely basic chemistry.

“this vapor is water, disassembled to be lighter than air, it is still water because it cobbles itself together and returns to the Earth In original form”

It is always in its original form. A water molecule is always a water molecule, whether the water is vapour or liquid water or ice. What changes is how close together the molecules are, and what links them together. Add heat to water, and the weak bonds that attract the molecules break, allowing them to move further away from each other (and the water becomes a gas). Lower the temperature of the molecules enough, and the bonds link the molecules tightly together again (and it becomes a liquid, and then a solid as the temperature sinks further). Always the same molecules. They don’t get created or destroyed in this process.

Surely, you must have learned this stuff in high school. If not, as @Dutchess_III said, a quick trip to Wikipedia will catch you up.

And this has nothing to do with evolution, because water is not alive.

head bangs on keyboard

It is pretty cool that water can be a gas, a liquid and a solid, and all within the temperature realm that humans live in.

@Dutchess_III That’s one of the reasons why life is thought to have evolved here—the triple point is within the realm of our biopsphere.

On a related note, on Titan (Saturn’s moon), the triple point of methane is within its biopshere so on Titan, there is solid, liquid and gaseous methane.

Can all compounds and elements revert to all three states under the right conditions?

@Dutchess_III Yes. It is a combination of pressure, temperature that is different depending on the element or compound. Some, like CO2 can not exist in liquid form under atmospheric pressure, which is why solid CO2 sublimates directly to gas (dry ice).

And the individual characteristics of the compound or element is based upon the size of it, the Van der Walls forces, and hydrogen bonding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Triple_point

And those are the kinds of pressures and temperatures that can be reached in the center of a star, especially in the nova stage?

No, a star is a completely different type of matter, called plasma. It’s not solid, liquid or gas. It’s an ionized state of matter that has different properties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)

I mean the elements and compounds can reach those temperature inside of a star. I’m not saying the star itself goes through the stages.

Well a star is mostly helium and hydrogen in plasma form. The triple point is irrelevent when you’re talking about plasma physics.

Right. I got that.

Then I guess I don’t understand the question.

What elements are found in stars, besides helium and hydrogen?

@Dutchess_III Oh, sorry. Just hydrogen and helium with just trace amounts of other elements. The older the star generation the more trace elements there will be.

http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/02/ep-75-stellar-populations/

Thanks. I’ll get to that in a bit. Gotta finish…reefing nails.

@Dutchess_III Water vapor turns into clouds when it cools and condenses—that is, turns back into liquid water or ice. In order to condense, the water vapor must have a solid to glom onto. This solid “seed” may be a speck of dust or pollen, or a drop of water or crystal of ice….In the cloud, with more water condensing onto other water droplets, the droplets grow. When they get too heavy to stay suspended in the cloud, even with updrafts within the cloud, they fall to Earth as rain.
So simple yet there are droughts. One would think since there is supposedly water vapor in the air at all times they can dust the sky with some dust or pollen and force nature to condense some of this water. Too bad man has yet to figure out how to move clouds at will, guess man can’t do everything. Maybe they can suspend large globes radiating heat to effect the water in the air to condense or disperse so no areas gets too much and none get too little. I have a working knowledge how clouds work, but how they perfectly they work shows some planning to me not just trial and error. That still doesn’t explain how the ants do what they do, or how they were taught from the egg to know what their hive or colony assignment is.

@Hypocrisy_Central As far as drought, you have to understand the difference between “weather,” which is what you experience when you go outside on any given day, and “climate” which is how the atmosphere behaves over relatively long periods of time. Might do some research here.

As far as ants, as @osoraro, that’s the result of 5 billion years of evolution by natural selection. Again, not magic.

To me, it would be very sad to have the “answer” to everything (magic.) Where is the curiosity? Where is the fascination? Where is the desire to track it down, to unravel the “mystery”?

@Dutchess_III As far as ants, as @osoraro, that’s the result of 5 billion years of evolution by natural selection. Again, not magic.
Natural selection is as valuable to me as God created it that way is to you. To me it is a cop out answer unless one can break it down on just how nature done it over who knows how many centuries. Do you? Since no one was around, is this just a theory or they have some sort of proof?

And “God done it” isn’t a cop out answer?! Why don’t you just say “Zeus done it.”?

Wow, is there a question in here?

@Dutchess_III
I don’t get what point you were after with the decomposing house story. Nothing sounded questionable or even very evolutiony. It has been a long work week though.

is this just a theory or they have some sort of proof?

Sure. Loads. How much proof do you need to change your mind? And you’re misinterpreting the word “theory”. “Theory” to you means “guess”. Theory in scientific circles means rigorously proven scientific fact. Unless, of course, you also don’t believe in germ theory, gravitational theory, relativity theory, quantum theory, plate techtonics theory, electromagnetic theory, thermodynamics theory, nuclear theory, heliocentric theory, etc.

@osoraro [...is this just a theory or they have some sort of proof?
Since you want to deal with facts and tangible trues, have at it, what proof, evidence, or method did ant or do ants use to know what to do the moment they are hatched? Please come with something more concrete than a nebulous eons of natural selection which doesn’t explain squat. Explain it, point out how, etc.

You, my friend, need to read E O Wilson, if you’re truly interested, and not just being argumentative.

Here’s a reasonable blog post on the subject
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/where-did-ants-and-their-social-behavior-come-from/

The short answer is that ants know where to go because of scent and genetics, which were selected for by environmental pressure on the population, competition and survival of the more stronger phenotype.

Cool video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKl8Luuotw

Here is Wilson on the Colbert
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/c0s4ec/edward-o--wilson

But, you didn’t answer any of my questions that I asked above.
1) Which, if any, of the scientific theories that I listed above, do you believe in? Or do you believe that God is responsible for holding your butt to the chair?
2) Which of the two versions of Genesis do you believe in?
3) Do you believe that woman have one fewer rib than men, because God took a rib out of man and made a woman (at least in one of the Genesis stories).

By the above I didn’t mean two versions of Genesis but the two versions of the Creation myth in the first few verses of Genesis. Sorry.

@osoraro
“1) Which, if any, of the scientific theories that I listed above, do you believe in? Or do you believe that God is responsible for holding your butt to the chair?”
Science and God are not at odds with each other as I stated above. Science is a fabrication of mankind. God’s existence is a belief that some of mankind has. Confusion reigns supreme when the idea of a belief gets convoluted/mistaken for a fabrication.

If you have any belief of any kind (wether scientific or not) I’d wager you’d say that it was founded in something. It isn’t just an invented contraption with which to amuse yourself.

“2) Which of the two versions of Genesis do you believe in?”
I’m afraid you’ll have to be more specific.

“3) Do you believe that woman have one fewer rib than men, because God took a rib out of man and made a woman (at least in one of the Genesis stories).”
No. We clearly have the same amount of ribs apiece nowadays (minus a few oddballs plus or minus one). Perhaps (as already written), it was Adam who was missing the rib.

Okay I’ll get to your genesis follow up question tomorrow when I can get to my Pentatuch.

But if you accept the scientific theories I mentioned and don’t see a conflict with God, why is it so difficult to accept the theory of evolution by mutation and natural selection?

@osoraro You, my friend, need to read E O Wilson, if you’re truly interested, and not just being argumentative.
I was never the one being argumentative. I reviewed each of those links you posted, and I went in hoping there was the answer to the question and sadly there wasn’t. Since you did not win any of those awards or wrote any books I guess you were just parroting Wilson or some other. I know ants work off scent trails, unless you kill that off, you keep getting ants back in your kitchen. He may have explained as he believes why there are fertile ants, unfertile ants, worker ants etc. he did not quite get around how this scent or DNA produced knowledge in the ant to know what to do the moment it is hatched. Simply stating it was derived by a break off from a species that had similar behavior etc. falls short. It’s been known for a while that ants evolved from a wasplike ancestor, but the relationships among living wasps and ants have been unclear. Another one of those things they say is certain without knowing how it came about. These wasps were obviously not “eusocial” (i.e., having reproductive queens with a nonreproductive female worker caste), leaving open the question of what factors prompted the evolution of that marvel of behavior,…] Oh SNAP! Another open question they have no answer to. That novel finding gives one clue to the origin of eusociality in ants, for the Apoidea is a group characterized by two things: like ants, they build nests to contain their eggs, and they provision those nests by bringing prey back to feed the offspring. wait for it The results suggest that the common ancestor of ants and Apoidea…] Why are they ”suggesting”, don’t they know? If they know, then they should stick to their guns and say ”this is how it is or happened”. ¬*This paper, at least, supports that two-factor hypothesis, and that’s why it’s important.* And so we go with assumptions again, don’t they have the concrete truth on the matter?

Which, if any, of the scientific theories that I listed above, do you believe in? Or do you believe that God is responsible for holding your butt to the.
From who, you or some other? If I go that God created the gravity that keeps me and everything else from flying off the planet, in that way God is responsible for keeping my butt in the chair, He also give me the ability to stand and walk if I choose so, same as you and everyone else.

Which of the two versions of Genesis do you believe in?
There is only one version presented in two different ways, if you knew the Word as well as you know ants you’d know that, but I guess you don’t because the ants has your attention.

Do you believe that woman have one fewer rib than men, because God took a rib out of man and made a woman (at least in one of the Genesis stories).
I always heard it the other way around, but I am not surprised you have not heard. I have no belief for or against it, or if it were true it had anything to do with Eve. It really has no sway on salvation, grace, or anything like that.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Sorry, I got called in an emergency to the ICU to work today, so I don’t have time to look over my Pentatuch. Here is a quick Google search on the reference.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

@Hypocrisy_Central Okay, if you accept that God keeps your butt in the chair (He doesn’t. It’s actually space-time warping around a massive body creating an accelerated frame of reference but whatever) why do you find it so hard to believe that God may have created a natural universe by which proven theories such as evolution by natural selection is the law?

@osoraro . . . why do you find it so hard to believe that God may have created a natural universe by which proven theories such as evolution by natural selection is the law?

Because once this type of discussion has reached this point it is no longer about faith or fact. It is simply about who is “right” or “wrong”.

SPOILER ALERT: Neither side will yield.

@osoraro
I don’t think you’ll find anywhere that I said I agree with all of your listed scientific theories. I said that God and science are not at odds.

Our understanding of the universe and its laws is fluid. As we learn, theories change. Scientific data changes and adapts. If our knowledge of things were to plateau at the top, I don’t think it would prove anything contrary to God’s plan.

As far as the “God created evolution” idea – I have often wondered if that’s how He did it. However, it doesn’t really jive with the way creation is described.

@Blondesjon
It’s not an argument. It’s a discussion. I see no need to form a battle front and claim sides.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Okay, which of those listed theories, then, do you not believe in? If any?

@Blondesjon Agree with @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Not an argument. This is an online debate.

@osoraro
I actually found no such list. I apologize. I am always on mobile and it is tough to wade through all the responses on the tiny screen and misbehaving touchscreen.

I also don’t see this as a debate at all. I opened this thread so people could ask questions of someone different from the fluther majority.

I’m really not interested in downgrading to a “link off” scenario.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Sure. No problem. I’ll just cut and paste the relevant part of my post above—it was to @Hypocrisy_Central but the point is that there are many proven scientific theories. I’m wondering which you believe in?

is this just a theory or they have some sort of proof?
Sure. Loads. How much proof do you need to change your mind? And you’re misinterpreting the word “theory”. “Theory” to you means “guess”. Theory in scientific circles means rigorously proven scientific fact. Unless, of course, you also don’t believe in germ theory, gravitational theory, relativity theory, quantum theory, plate techtonics theory, electromagnetic theory, thermodynamics theory, nuclear theory, heliocentric theory, etc.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One The pastor was trying to say that, without some being to clean a house, it won’t clean itself. Somehow he saw that as proof that a being created everything.
When, in the end,no being cleaned the house, or cared for it at all, it went back to the earth.
At first the pastor was triumphant that that was further proof…until I pointed out that that was God’s way of “cleaning up.”

I’m not seeing as much discussion and debating on this thread as I am seeing deflection and diatribe. I see the same tired old points that are gone over and over again with no ground gained in one side really understanding the other. So, my question for anybody participating on this thread (and I believe this is pertinent to the OP’s original intent):

What does this effort and energy accomplish?

We are enjoying ourselves. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.

But I do like it. I just want to understand it better. Isn’t that the point of the thread?

Oh, and can you answer my question?

Which question do you want me to answer?

Sorry @osoraro. You already answered it. I ran out of edit time.

Well, the original question was “Ask me anything.”

So, here I go again. For for those who literally believe the flood story, it just hit me that not only did Noah put two kinds of every animal, from every continent,even those that were totally isolated from other continents, no matter what the climate, like Australia, he also had to take seeds, or saplings from the plants, because the flood would have killed every plant from every continent.

Plus he had to take fodder and meat for the animals, not to mention fresh water. All of that on a boat a bit bigger than a football field?

@osoraro Okay, if you accept that God keeps your butt in the chair (He doesn’t. It’s actually space-time warping around a massive body creating an accelerated frame of reference but whatever) why do you find it so hard to believe that God may have created a natural universe by which proven theories such as evolution by natural selection is the law?
”IF”? God DID create all that is seen and known. I have never had a problem with that. How ants and birds do what they do, I have never had a problem with, they do what God intended them to do; it is only man that doesn’t. Whatever you want to call the law of physic God created that holds me on the planet, doesn’t matter, it still works. God has allowed man to decipher some of the natural laws He created, how to create flight, though man cannot do it as perfectly as he has with just about every living creature with wings. He has allowed man to tap into the wisdom of creating electricity. Because the Bible never specifically said ”And thus, God created the T-Rex to dominate the hemispheres…” I don’t have a problem they were part of the forming of this worlds, if it is as scientist say, we would not have oil that turned out to be a vital part of society without them.

Is it so impossible to fathom something that cannot be explained by some process that something greater than just happenstance can be behind it even though undetectable by means available in tangible form?

But see that’s the thing. It all can be explained naturally. No need for God. You just refuse to learn.

Oh, I have an AMA question.

If you have a daughter, and someone accuses her of not being a virgin and she is, and you take the 100 pieces of silver, and then later you find that she is NOT a virgin, will you pay back the 100 pieces of silver before or after you stone her to death?

And I have another one.
If you find out that your neighbor worships an idol, how will you smite them and destroy them utterly? Will you kill just them, or will you burn down the entire house?

Here’s another AMA question (especially relevant because of the SCOTUS ruling):

It’s already obvious that you will put to death a man who lies with another man. But the Bible doesn’t say about a woman lying with another woman. Does this mean that you will only execute male homosexuals but lesbians are okay?

If you accidentally eat a shrimp in a salad, will you immediately go and try to vomit it up or will you take some sort of laxative to purge it quicker from your body since it’s abhorrent?

Do you keep your Hebrew slaves for the full six years before setting them free, or do you let them go earlier?

If your neighbor has a tree that produces bad fruit, will you let them know before you chop it down and throw it in the fire?

Are you finished?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Yeah, I guess so. There are a lot more, but I made my point.

Oh, and you never answered my question as to which of the proven science theories you do or do not believe in.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Are you finished?
He was done a long time ago, stick a fork in him, he is grasping at straws. Don’t know why he is asking for answers he has no capacity to believe or even try to believe, it is pointless, in his own words: You He just refuse to learn.

The question I really want the answer to os which scientific theories you guys believe in of the ones I listed. Both of you have dodged the answer.

They’ve ignored a lot of my questions. But, to be fair, it’s hard to see one particular question in this blizzard of answers.

@Dutchess_III Of course they’ve ignored a lot of our questions. The question is “Ask me anything” It’s not “I’ll answer anything”.

To me, it was frustrating that the one question that was answered, the answer was “magic.” I mean, when you have that answer as a go-to, you can never go wrong. You’ll always have “the” answer.
That was a huge reason I left Christianity behind. I want answers, not fables.

I will gladly answer all of your questions but it will take time. I work long hours and am on call most nights. One thing is for sure, adding more questions won’t speed things up.

I’ll back off and give you time to answer @osoraro‘s questions, starting here

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Ok. Out of curiosity, what line of work are you in that you’re on call most nights?

@osoraro
“If you have a daughter, and someone accuses her of not being a virgin and she is, and you take the 100 pieces of silver, and then later you find that she is NOT a virgin, will you pay back the 100 pieces of silver before or after you stone her to death?”
In order to head off this “line of questioning” I recommend reading this

No, it’s not my personally written answer. However, it contains the answers you’re looking for (more eloquently than I could write them to boot) .

“If you find out that your neighbor worships an idol, how will you smite them and destroy them utterly? Will you kill just them, or will you burn down the entire house?”
This is essentially the same question as above..

“It’s already obvious that you will put to death a man who lies with another man. But the Bible doesn’t say about a woman lying with another woman. Does this mean that you will only execute male homosexuals but lesbians are okay?”
What you are claiming is “obvious” is not even correct.

The bible doesn’t say not to punch a cactus either.. what it does talk about is the beauty of the relationship between man and wife.

“If you accidentally eat a shrimp in a salad, will you immediately go and try to vomit it up or will you take some sort of laxative to purge it quicker from your body since it’s abhorrent?”
I will probably scrunch up my face and say “yuck..shrimp” as I don’t like shrimp. I will not become bulimic because of it.

“Do you keep your Hebrew slaves for the full six years before setting them free, or do you let them go earlier?”
I don’t have any. N/A.

“If your neighbor has a tree that produces bad fruit, will you let them know before you chop it down and throw it in the fire?”
I would probably say something like “dude, your tree needs help Frank”.

“Oh, and you never answered my question as to which of the proven science theories you do or do not believe in.”
Proven scientific data doesn’t require belief or faith. It simply is. This post will be quite long if you want me to review/approve millions of scientific theories.

@Dutchess_III
“They’ve ignored a lot of my questions.”
You’ve ignored a lot of my answers. And yes, I have chosen to disregard some questions as they pertained to things I’ve already talked about.

If my answers are not adequate for you, I apologize. However, shotgunning identical (but vaguely re-worded) questions hardly seems productive. E.G. Noah’s ark questions.

“To me, it was frustrating that theone question that was answered, the answer was “magic.” I mean, when you have that answer as a go-to, you can never go wrong. You’ll always have “the” answer.That was a huge reason I left Christianity behind. I want answers, not fables.”
If you’re looking for spiritual answers by utilizing non-spiritual means, you’re always going to come up short.

Imagine, if you can, that it’s true. If God actually is sort of magical, how else should we respond? Because you choose not to believe that “magic” makes it no less true.

@osoraro
“Ok. Out of curiosity, what line of work are you in that you’re on call most nights?”
I’m the guy who puts those plastic things on the ends of shoelaces, of course.

Sorry, the first two are cop out answer. You can’t just ask an AMA question and then when a hard question is asked of you your answer is, “read this book”.

The third one (if you’re keeping track—the gay one), certainly it’s obvious. The Bible clearly states that if a man lies with another man they should be put to death. Do you believe the Bible or not?

The tree—the Bible clearly states that the tree should be destroyed. Why do you not destroy the tree?

I’m not asking you to approve millions of scientific theories. I’m asking you yes/no on just a few.

Regarding the line of work answer: Fine, don’t answer. No need to be a jerk about it.

If my answers are not adequate for you, I apologize.

It’s clear, though, that you aren’t really asking questions so much as you’re attempting to vilify my belief system.

You’re not asking me questions. You are questioning my beliefs. If you don’t know the difference, I’m afraid all I can do is shrug and move on.

I am asking you a direct question. Do you, yes or no, believe in each of the scientific theories I noted above. If the answer is no, which ones do you not believe in?

And if the Bible is correct, why do you not believe in stoning your daughter if she is not a virgin

@osoraro Both of you have dodged the answer.
I have no need to dodge your questions, I think you missed it ducking the answers.

@Dutchess_III They’ve ignored a lot of my questions. But, to be fair, it’s hard to see one particular question in this blizzard of answers.
I tried to answer your questions but I determined you never wanted an answer, for when you got the correct answer, you rejected it because it did not say what you wanted it to say. If I ignored any after that it is because you really do not care for the truth, less it is one manufactured to bolster what you want the truth to be. I will tell you this, if you want to ask questions of the Bible, do you believe
2 Tim 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

If you don’t, then I know you will never accept any answer and thus was never seeking an answer in the first place.

Which I then invoke a quote and a Proverb:
”Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” —Mark Twain, and Proverbs 26:4 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.

I stop tossing my wood on the ”foolhardy bon fire” of others less I get burned, eventually the fire will burn out

Do you, or do you not believe in germ theory? Yes or no.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One You say @osoraro is trying to “vilify” your religion. How do you figure, when he took examples of how to behave directly out of the book that defines your religion, and posted them without comment or opinion? If you consider that vilifying, then your religion vilifies its self.

I do believe in germ theory! I do believe in germ theory!”

Dutchess is correct. I’m just taking phrases directly from the Bible. I can quote the exact passages if you like.

Look, I’m going to make this easy for you. Nobody expects you to stone your daughter—that would be barbaric, nobody does that. Also, nobody expects you to kill gay people. That would be ridculous. I also expect you to believe in germ theory and the theory of gravitation. You’re not an idiot.

So my question is, if you can cherry pick what you believe and follow in the Bible, and understand that the Bible is filled with stories and parables instead of stone cold facts, why is it so hard for you to believe in things like evolution by natural selection, especially since I assume you have no trouble with other proven scientific theories?

By all means, please quote scriptures. I’m not cherry picking. However, perhaps I’ll be able to discuss the verses you’re referring to if they’re actually cited. (hopefully not in a shotgun format as before)

The bible is full of stories, parables, and stone cold facts.

I appreciate yours (and Dutchess’) participation in this thread but I hope you understand that you’re making this feel like a interrogation instead of a conversation. Would you ask a stranger on the street 12 questions back to back and then complain that he/she didn’t answer number seven?

If you’ll scroll up, you’ll find that I’ve been (or HC, or the Christian faith in general has been) referred to with a number of negative terms. It’s not very conducive to conversation and has, admittedly, shifted me into more of a defensive stance. Being called a jerk, an idiot, a moron who believes in magic, etc tends to do that. (some of this is from other threads too)

It really makes me question my presence here and also explains fluther’s low site jabber rating.

I read the reviews before coming and thought “no way can it be that bad”.. but…

I think what this fish tank needs is some more salt to dilute the pepper.

I’m off on a tangent, I know, but it had to be said.

Anyway.. back to work. My answer before was just a joke by the way.

You still haven’t answered my science question. Which theories do you believe in?

I’ve answered you multiple times. What I’m not going to do is debate each one by one. Scientific work only requires “belief” when it comes to its more outlandish theories..like presuming to know anything about the earth millions of years ago.

No, you haven’t. You’ve ducked the question. I’m not asking for a debate of each theory one by one. I’m asking a simple yes or no.

1) Do you believe in germ theory? Yes or no
2) Do you believe in gravitational theory? Yes or no
3) Do you believe in thermodynamics? yes or no
4) Lastly, do you believe in plate tectonics? Yes or no.

I won’t debate you on these, I promise.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “I hope you understand that you’re making this feel like a interrogation instead of a conversation.”

Actually, no. This is what an AMA is. This is exactly what you offered.

I was thinking that myself, @dappled_leaves.

Curious to hear your answers to @osoraro‘s questions @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One…

@osoraro
What I’m not going to do is answer for each one by one. The large majority of scientific principals are clearly sound. I like you, but I’m getting bored of this same question.

@dappled_leaves
“Actually, no. This is what an AMA is. This is exactly what you offered.”
The differences between interrogation and asking questions is clearly defined in the english language.

Well, I’d quit asking the same questions if you’d just answer them clearly.

I’m not a See n Say.

I’m sorry, but another non-answer. It drove me away from Christianity.

@Dutchess_III
That’s unfortunate.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Okay, then, I’ll boil it down to one question. If you answer this one question, I will quit bugging you. I promise not to debate you. I will not bring up Evolution. All I want is an answer to this one question.

What is your opinion and what is Christianity’s opinion on Plate Tectonic Theory?

@osoraro
”@Hypocrisy_Central It must be hard for you, being so smart”

@Dutchess_III
“Lol”

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Knowing about plate tectonics isn’t rocket science, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. My 7 year old grandson has a good understanding of it.
Or…do you not ‘believe” that those massive plates drift and cause earthquakes and volcanoes, and reshape the continents over millions of years?

Deut 22:21

she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Yup. Love that Bible.

@Dutchess_III
“The large majority of scientific principals are clearly sound.”

The only issue I have is in the postdiction of “millions of years ago”. Mankind has proven on countless occasions that what they are 100% sure of doesn’t always pan out.

The issue I have with these last redundant and repetitive questions is: there is a lot more to each theory than can be properly answered by an all encompassing “yes”. If I were to give that all encompassing yes, it means I agree and support a great number of things…some of them blindly. So, no matter how many times the same question is asked you will see a similar answer because I am not foolhardy enough to toss around blanket answers.

I’m sure your grandson knows quite a lot about what he is taught in public school. I wouldn’t ask him questions about God and creation though. Those things are taboo.

I have been struggling with this thread because it seems that I should just ignore it and move on. I have a soft spot in my heart for you though. Having once been a Christian you must have (at some point) experienced the undeniable, sometimes inexplicable, purely benevolent, awesomeness of God. It saddens me that you no longer believe it was real. It was.

It is normal and natural for us to have doubts..and wonder.. and second guess ourselves. I certainly do it. But each time I fall away from God I am reminded of the peace that passeth understanding. I have never found it elsewhere.

Actually, I taught him about plate tectonics. Do you know what plate tectonics is? What are your thoughts on it?

I didn’t think it (God doing all this stuff) was real, then either. I never believed in a virgin birth, Jesus walking on water, Jesus rising from the dead after 4 days, no rigor mortise or nothing! I never stumbled around blindly. I was always able to find a rational explanation for any supposed “miracle,” much to the chagrin of my Christian friends who wanted to be duped. Once, after a friend witnessed a “miracle” I gave her the rational explanation for it. She said, “You always ruin everything!” She wanted to be fooled. So she was.

BTW, now I’m curious. What kinds of questions did you expect us to ask?

Edit, 3 days.

“What kinds of questions did you expect us to ask?”
I don’t expect a certain type of question. I suspected that there would be a wide variety of them.

I didn’t really expect obsessive duplication of questions, though. I didn’t really expect for my answers to be completely disregarded or fielded by the insatiable either.

It sounds as if you were never a Christian. You just had Christian friends. Do you still have them?

Ha ha! That’s what they said then! I refused to be a fool and speak (blather) in tongues so I wasn’t really a Christian. My God. What kind of God expects their people to be so damn dumb and blind? He gave us brains, then says it’s a sin to use them??

It was also unchristian of me to reject Rush Limbaugh (this was in the 80’s) They thought he walked on water because he was anti-abortion. I thought he was crude, crass, nasty, ugly and rude.

No, after a space of a few years, when I reconnected I realized they were
a) Stupid or
b) Extremely rude and judgmental. One former friend unfriended me the instant she got wiff of the fact I am agnostic. Don’t want no agnostic contaminating her facebook feed, you see.

Also, they avoid questions.

Having said that, I have a few friends on FB who are Christian. One in particular who I like very much.

And you haven’t given us any answers!

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One
That’s unfortunate.
The unfortunate thing is that they have been bamboozled by the Tempter that people are driven from Christ by Him, or His misbehaving kids. I rarely had seen anyone ”drove” away from drugs because they had a bad trip, or even jail. I never seen anyone driven away from being a boozing drunk because they threw up in their car, lost it to the tow company, jail, etc. that happened to them or others. I have never seen anyone driven away from sleeping around because they caught an STD. People will go back to the vomit pit whenever they like it, so to say ”Christ or His followers”, drove them away from the cross and salvation is a feel-good cop out because they don’t want to admit they are just dancing with the Devil and he hates them anyhow. Shame when Old Slew foot will be laughing at them through all eternity…just sad.

Oh Lord!

There might be many saying that, but it will be too late…...

Like I said (when I was a Christian) I can’t believe God gave us these fantastic brains, yet made it a sin to use them. I can’t believe God wants us all to behave like 5 year olds, imagining that fairy tale is real.

“Ha ha! That’s what they said then!”
Maybe they were right.

“I refused to be a fool and speak (blather) in tongues so I wasn’t really a Christian. My God.”
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 Cor 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I never spoke in tongues either. This sounds like a strange church honestly.

“What kind of God expects their people to be so damn dumb and blind? He gave us brains, then says it’s a sin to use them??”
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Isaiah 33:6
 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the Lord is his treasure.

Psalms 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

The bible says a great deal about knowledge and wisdom. It tells us quite often to be the opposite of blind and dumb.

“It was also unchristian of me to reject Rush Limbaugh (this was in the 80’s) They thought he walked on water because he was anti-abortion. I thought he was crude, crass, nasty, ugly and rude.”
I sort of agree with you on this one. Rush was a bit crude as I mentioned above. It’s certainly not unchristian to not prefer him.

“No, after a space of a few years, when I reconnected I realized they were

a) Stupid or
b) Extremely rude and judgmental. One former friend unfriended me the instant she got wiff of the fact I am agnostic. Don’t want no agnostic contaminating her facebook feed, you see.”
People are people whether they are Christians, Agnostics, Atheists. or anything betwixt them. There are stupid, rude, and judgmental people of all races, creeds, and religions. I think it’s mistake to generalize though.

“And you haven’t given us any answers!”
Maybe I haven’t given you answers that you like. I’ve explained the non-black-and-white answers. If the explanation is not good enough I’m not sure how to proceed productively.

” Like I said (when I was a Christian) I can’t believe God gave us these fantastic brains, yet made it a sin to use them. I can’t believe God wants us all to behave like 5 year olds, imagining that fairy tale is real.”
It’s certainly not a sin to use our brains.

As far as being like children, the bible does mention that too with regard to our humility.

Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Obviously they were right. Doesn’t bother me a bit.

You can quote scripture to your heart’s content. It doesn’t mean a thing to me. It’s just ramblings written down by mortal men thousands of years ago. Maybe they were high and thought they had an epiphany.

Anyway, none of those scriptures address plate tectonics, which is what I asked you about. Do you know what it is?
None of them addressed @osoraro‘s straight forward questions, either.

Shrug. NEXT!

LOL! Still can’t answer because plate tectonics was never mentioned in the Bible!

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Were you homeschooled? What’s your age bracket?

“LOL! Still can’t answer because plate tectonics was never mentioned in the Bible!”
What? This makes zero sense.

“Were you homeschooled? What’s your age bracket?”
I was for a short time. It allowed me to skip a couple grades.

Bracket? 35–45 I guess.

Well, what do you think of plate tectonics?
Every “answer” you gave above was a verse from the Bible. That’s why I’m thinking you’re having a hard time answering my question…the answer isn’t in the Bible, although several preachers promised that the answer to every question was in the Bible. Liars.

What do you think of plate tectonics?

“What do you think of plate tectonics?”
I think it’s neat.

It really is. I saw a bumper sticker once that said, “Bring back Pangea!” I loved that!

Do you think it is plate tectonics that causes earthquakes and volcanoes?

“Do you think it is plate tectonics that causes earthquakes and volcanoes?”
Uh huh.

Do you think Pangea once existed?

Perhaps. But I doubt the timeline proposed. Hence we’ve arrived at my original (multiple) answers.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One In your view, when was Pangea?

I don’t know. There are tons of theories though. One being, of course, the (in this thread) recurring millions of years idea (which I’ve many times displayed my doubts about).

Why the sudden interest in P-town? Is it supposed to be a hot topic?

What is P-town?

Was there ever a time in your life when you didn’t believe in God?

If so, what would that person from your past have asked you now?

In turn, what would you ask that person?

“Was there ever a time in your life when you didn’t believe in God?”
Yes.

“If so, what would that person from your past have asked you now?”
How do you know God is out there?

“In turn, what would you ask that person?”
What is your purpose?

Do you believe that life has no purpose without believing in God?

Also, how would you answer the question from your past self?

“Do you believe that life has no purpose without believing in God?”
I believe you could find a purpose of some kind without God. But it would not compare. Definitely not for me. The difference between just being a creature on the earth and living for God is like night and day.

“Also, how would you answer the question from your past self?”
You will never physically see Him on this earth. What you will see is the effects of His presence. You will see people from all walks of life in possession of a joy they never before knew. Not the joy of a raise at work, or a fresh donut…but a pure, self actualizing joy.. You will see people with no fear of death who exhibit actual neighborly love. You will see marriages that actually weather storms. You will see reason for all the beauty around you.. not a beautiful, coincidental, cosmic accident.

You will find lots of evidence that He is out there: not by putting samples under a microscope, or speculating about Pangea..but by observing the change in your own life when you submit yourself to God…when you finally admit there’s something bigger.. something far better.

You will recognize the wisdom in God’s word and realize that such a wealth of it in one place is not a coincidence. You will learn a lot if you just honestly look. If you allow yourself to think spiritually.. and realize that a God capable of creating this earth is not likely to fit the normal paradigms of knowledge and understanding.

You will recognize that you have worth. You are not just an animal wandering the earth. You are not just a blob of matter that ultimately melts itself back into the earth. There is more!

You will soon realize that those who don’t believe will not understand you. They will mock you. They will call you crazy. They will scrutinize. And you will at some point wonder how it’s possible that they can’t see.

Or…you will choose to see only what has been captured and labeled in a beaker. You will live your life just as any other, experience sadness, happiness, pain, and all manner of emotions. And one day, lying in bed dying, you will wonder yet again what it all means. With any luck you’ll realize what you missed..you’ll remember the conversation you had with your future self all those years ago.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:7
For we walk by faith, not by sight

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I have worth. So does every animal wandering the earth. I don’t need a God to make me feel worthwhile.

I am not implying that without God your are worthless. I was merely emphasizing the power of the purpose and worth that comes with knowing you aren’t just an evolved conglomeration of matter. You are not an accident of nature.

Of course you have worth. Don’t be silly.

Where do Christians come up with the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old? It doesn’t give beginning dates in the Bible.

“Where do Christians come up with the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old? It doesn’t give beginning dates in the Bible.”
Not all Christians believe that. The differences in specific beliefs vary pretty widely (creationists and scientists included).

I don’t believe we’ll ever find out. But again, I find it incredibly audacious to claim with any certainty anything about the earth billions of years ago. We are barely over 100 years in flight. 100. We have only a few thousand years of recorded history, documentation, and scientific research. Just over 500 years ago, tons of people thought the earth was flat. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume we don’t have it all figured out.. by a long stretch.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also he has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from the beginning.

You have to be able to grasp the timeline, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One. It’s hard. It’s much easier to compress everything into your limited, human understanding. Something you can sink your teeth into (I had that same complaint as a Christian, when, for example, I suggested intelligent design. My Christian people tried to say, “God wouldn’t do that!” Or whatever. I thought it was incredible arrogant.)

Anyway, here is the time line, according to fossil evidence, carbon 14 dating, etc. Mind blowing. I’m trying to find a linear graph that shows that humans have only been here but for a speck of time in all of history. Not having luck finding the one I want, so I’ll ask a question about it.

Carbon dating is hardly flawless. There is still a lot of guesswork involved.

“It’s much easier to compress everything into your limited, human understanding”
It’s ironic that you’re trying to convince me to do just that.

Tell me what YOU know about Carbon 14 dating? Don’t copy and paste. Just tell me, out of your head, what you know about it, and what is flawed about it?

I know that it is supposedly accurate to about 20 thousand or so years (with some calculated guesses thrown in). After that the carbon levels sort of taper off making it impossible to breach that 20k wall. I know that the accuracy of it has been debated for years and that there are scientists on both sides of the fence about it. I know it’s not as rock solid as it is claimed to be.

I know it’s still a leap of faith to use it in calculations leading toward 50,000 years ago.. let alone billions.

So you agree that it can be used to determine the age of (whatever) up to 50,000 years ago?

No I don’t. I think that’s a leap of faith as I said. Honestly, I think there’s a faith aspect to even the 20k mark. It’s not as simple as 2+2=x after all.

If someone colors your fence red, even if you didn’t see them do it, is it a leap of faith to say “The fence is red?”

Depends. Is my fence in the present? Or did my fence turn red (and who knows what other colors) after several billions of years.

I can look at a fence and see that it’s red. What I can’t do is tell you that it’s a billion years old because it’s red.

Re: The 6000 years. That came from Bishop James Ussher and is called the Ussher Chronology

Re: The carbon dating: @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One is correct—the outside time it can be dated is about 50K years. There are other methods of dating for older dates.

You sound very certain. How many things have you carbon dated?

Wow! ” creation began at nightfall on Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC.” Do you accept “Ussher’s”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology work, @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One?

Here you go, Grumpy. I tracked through the heavens to find this. You were gasping at all the things we’ve accomplished in only 100 years. Look at the miniscule time (the thin black line) humans have even been around since the earth formed.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One Me personally? None. But I’m a physician, not an archaeologist.

@Dutchess_III
I’m not sure what you’re point is. You’re right. We haven’t been around long.

As far as Ussher’s idea – I don’t think he had enough information to make an accurate assessment.

@osoraro
Oh, I see.

This auto-correct thing is killing me. It’s ruining my yours and my you’resssess. Ahhh technology.. how I love and hate you.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One He figured he had all the information he needed in the Bible. Shouldn’t that be enough?

If he would have read it first – perhaps he wouldn’t have bothered.

“Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also he has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from the beginning.”

Dinosaurs were purty, too. But that was 65 million years ago.

You are, of course, entitled to believe what you choose to.

The evidence is there. It isn’t made up out of someone’s imagination.

You’re certainly correct.

“Job Chapter 40

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength [is] in his loins, and his force [is] in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones [are as] strong pieces of brass; his bones [are] like bars of iron.

19 He [is] the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach [unto him].

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him [with] their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, [and] hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: [his] nose pierceth through snares.”

Oh, good grief! So you think that Noah also packed his little boat with dinosaurs?

Sorry, if they were describing dinosaurs and not, for example, elephants or whales, they would be a lot more descriptive than “That big thing eats grass.”

I’m sure baby animals were still smaller than their adult counterparts. Even back then.

No no no no no!
Jesus rode on a dinosaur’s back, Dutchess, don’t you know anything?

http://www.dailydawdle.com/2011/10/10-epic-portraits-of-jesus-and.html

LOL! I am so damn uneducated!

My mind is just blown, to be honest. You are still clinging to the fairy tales you were told when you were five. Use your brain! God gave it to you! Why would he punish you for using it?!

Every time this question pops up, I translate the acronym to ”A gainst M edical A dvice”. Wonder whether that’s my atheistic subconscious talking…or simply a side effect of watching too many medical dramas in my formative years.

@longgone We have AMA forms in our hospital for that purpose.

“Why would he punish you for using it?!”
Where are you getting this from? There’s absolutely no context for it.

And out of curiosity, if I’m a crazy person, why are you still here? I’m not telling you to leave, I’m just curious.

For you to reject children’s stories, such as Noah’s Ark, and accept the fact that there WAS no earth-wide flood, and that even if there were, Noah could not get two of every animal, from all over the world, including Australia, Greenland and Iceland, into his little boat, would require critical, intelligent thinking. You are capable of that. But you are afraid to use it. You are afraid God will punish you.

That’s where I get that.

I never said you were crazy. You’re just afraid to think for your self, as were all my “true Christian” friends.

You’re making a lot of assumptions there. They are incorrect.

Believing in something does not make someone irrational or incapable of objective thought.

I’m really sorry you’ve had such a rough go of it.

Just to pop in defense here of Grumpy, he’s correct. Believing in something does not make someone irrational or incapable of objective thought. I have plenty of religious friends who have no problem with science.

I was one them! It was really hard to get to the point where I could say…“It just isn’t possible. None of it makes any sense. Why would God “save” one child and let 1000 more die?

@Dutchess_III Well, that’s how I feel. If there is a God, and he only wants to let people in to Heaven who belong to his special little club, then that’s not a God I want anything to do with anyway.

In defense of @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One I wonder if the questioning on this thread would have gone the same route had he requested, “I am a Homosexual – (AMA details inside) or I am a Single Parent – (AMA details inside)”.

I say this because I see @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One post frequently on this site but I never see him pushing a “Christian agenda” on anyone. I really am starting to feel he is being treated a bit harshly. This bothers me because I am an atheist and I see other atheists using the derisive, Fox News Conservative Christian attack style on him. I don’t want to be, because of my non-faith, lumped in with others that behave that way.

I’m bad enough as it is.

@Blondesjon Eh, I think the main problem is that the OP is not making a legitimate attempt to fulfill the AMA. In many cases, he either avoids the question, or he puts no effort into the answer. He asks for questions, then perceives the questions as attacks. So, sure, this thread has fallen apart pretty quickly.

We are desperate for a theist who can actually defend his beliefs. What a good conversation that would be. This is not it.

I agree that @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One is generally civil in other threads. He seems like a nice guy. That has nothing to do with why people are responding to him the way they are – which I think is mainly down to frustration tinged with hint of boredom.

@Blondesjon He asked the question. What, exactly, did he expect? Was he hoping to convert people? He doesn’t realize that most of us came out of theism, and went with agnosticism or atheism after much considered thought.

Besides, a homosexual just is what someone is. A single parent is the same thing. Homosexuality and single parenthood aren’t built on mythology.

I agree, he appears to be a nice guy.

@Dutchess_III . . . Besides, a homosexual is just what someone is.

So is a Christian, an atheist, or a chainsaw juggler. I’m just saying you are treating someone in a way that would severely bunch your panties were it you that were being treated that way.

Lol. I’ve seen it happen on here numerous times.

I tried not to be snarky. I think I did OK until I finally got exasperated and clocked him about the Noah’s Ark fable. I mean, adult Christians don’t even discuss that any more. When I tried to, they’d just shrug their shoulders and say some version of “God works in mysterious ways.”
If you google it, the majority of the images are designed for little, impressionable kids.

Being an atheist (agnostic) is what I choose to be. I wasn’t born that way. I wasn’t even “born” a Christian. I was indoctrinated, of course.

I never used the word born.

“Why would God “save” one child and let 1000 more die?”
It would be silly of me to propose that I have all of the answers and can speak for God. That last question is the most difficult so far. I could dodge it but in reality I just don’t know.

Similarly to how a parent lets his kid do something so that he will learn a lesson; I think God has a plan and all of that fits in there somewhere .

He lets us live freely and make decisions for ourselves and as a result lots of bad things happen. Children are killed by drunk drivers and women are raped and murders occur. Natural disasters take out hundreds of thousands. I don’t like it or understand it sometimes but I think that’s why the book of Job exists. The entire book of Job illustrates this question perfectly. Job was a just and righteous man and yet lost everything and experienced countless sufferings and endured terrible hardships.

In the story Satan proposes that he can break Job and make him turn away from God and perhaps that is why God let him be tested. Maybe that is again what is happening here . Maybe every day is a test for us. Maybe his strength is best witnessed when we are broken and emotionally distraught.

Horato Spafford endured some similar hardships and yet he wrote It is well with my soul.
“When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well with my soul.”

How could he possibly say that it was well with his soul after losing so much? Maybe that is the same lesson that he was teaching us with Job. That we can survive anything with him on our side, that we are going to be tested and tried and hurt and lots of bad things are going to happen but we can endure.

Again this is all really speculation. I don’t have all the answers.

What I do know is that if everyone lived for God there would be no drunk driving, there would be no rapists or pedophilia, there would be no murder and everyone would be using the golden rule.

Sadly even the obviously benevolent facets of Christianity are readily rejected because of things that people don’t understand. I find that very unfortunate. Because I wish everyone could feel the peace that I feel. I wish everyone could smile and talk nicely to their neighbor instead of complaining about his hedges. I wish there weren’t men who abused their wives , or wives who abused their husbands physically or emotionally. I wish you could leave your car in any neighborhood in the world without fear of it being stolen or damaged. I wish that I could avoid being sarcastic in some circumstances .

Unfortunately and fortunately we live freely, and we are sinful creatures all of us.

John 16:33
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

@dappled_leaves
Please point out to me a question that I’ve dodged. I did my best to explain why I didn’t want to go through a giant list of scientific theories . If that explanation was not sufficient then I suppose it may always seem like I am not making a legitimate attempt.

I didn’t even propose a subject for this . I merely said what I am and now I’m fielding questions. I’d like to think this was more like a few people talking peacefully in a coffee shop… but often it feels like I am the only one on my side of the table. I could attempt to appear stronger by not mentioning that but I believe that honesty is better.

Here, have an espresso.

@Dutchess_III
We could go into depth on Noah’s Ark if you like. There are videos on both sides of the issue. There are studies on both sides of the issue. There is an absolute truck load of information on the story.

What amazes me is that of all the things that God did (whether you believe it or not) we often get hung up on Noah’s Ark. Then we are caught superimposing mortal standards onto a divine being. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

To me it seems a lot like a kid saying “you can’t see me I’m hiding”.

Noah’s Ark, virgin birth, Jesus walking on water, healing the lepers, being dead for 3 days with no ill effects, whatever. I finally realized that I wasn’t a “real” Christian until I actually believed these things, which I couldn’t, that I finally let it all go.
Saying there is no God answers every single question I ever had. Why did he save 1 kid out of a thousand? He didn’t. Nature is merciless (and even that is an anthropomorphism)

@Blondesjon I agree. He deserves better than the treatment that he’s gotten on the majority of this thread.

The questions are relentless. I’m weary just reading all of them and I’m not even the one trying to answer all of them.

Imagine you are the OP and act accordingly to how you would want to be treated—regardless of your belief.

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One “I didn’t even propose a subject for this . I merely said what I am and now I’m fielding questions. I’d like to think this was more like a few people talking peacefully in a coffee shop… but often it feels like I am the only one on my side of the table.”

I think this is exactly the problem – what you describe having happened here is exactly what an AMA looks like. You say “Fire away!” and a bunch of strangers ask you one-off questions. Each person takes their turn, and follows up if the answer is not satisfactory (by which I mean, does not actually answer the question). Then another person is up. It is not typically a conversation. There’s no espresso.

If you wanted to have a conversation, there are ways to ask those kinds of questions on Fluther, too. But this isn’t an inviting question for that style of interaction.

There are over 300 responses. I think we’re doing just fine.

Quantity does not = quality. If it did the “Hijack this thread” would win, hands down. Where is that Q, anyway?
Or the frizzer question.

Well I’m sorry you feel there was little quality. I’ve certainly learned a lot during this. Thank you for that.

What have you learned?

I’ve had to revisit the math on Noah’s ark for one. Each time I do, I’m amazed that there was likely room leftover.

I’ve learned a great deal about those who took the time to ask questions. You’re all pretty good people (though there are a couple of crazies).

I did some reading on some terminology that was presented. I’ve had to look up a few big words. I did a review on some scientific principals (to include plate tectonics since it was such a popular subject).

I did a lot of bible reading to see what it says about some of the topics that were brought up.

I’ve talked with my wife on some of the interesting subjects we covered.

I even had some new coffee I’d never had before while reading and re-reading portions of this thread.

I don’t think I can properly portray or quantify what I’ve learned. It was a bit of a holistically achieved state.

Thanks @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One (But I still maintain that 150 yards by about 50 yards wide is not enough for two of every animal on the earth, as well as the feed, live meat, and fresh water needed to keep them alive for 30 days. But we shall just have to agree to disagree on this.)

I have an idea…why don’t you reask the question then specify in the details “Only one question at a time. Please don’t respond or ask a new question until the last one is answered.” Also, put it in General.

I absolutely detest the general section. It feels cold..as if personality is not allowed.

I’m ok with multiple questions at a time if it’s different people or if it’s at least confined to one post or something. I got a bit flustered earlier on because I would be in the middle of typing an answer only to have six more questions appear from the same source.

“I got a bit flustered earlier on because I would be in the middle of typing an answer only to have six more questions appear from the same source.” Don’t blame you at all. That’s why I suggest that you specify only one question at a time.