How long is too long for a couple to live together rather than marry?

The missing “piece of paper” isn’t a marriage license, it is a will. If he had filled out a will, his property would have gone as he wished. Who knows, perhaps John didn’t care enough for Mary to leave things for her.

Same line of thinking runs for me when talking about living together and not marrying. It may just be a piece of paper, but that piece of paper addresses a lot of those issues.

I created a will as soon as I had kids. But I was already married then.

Consider this: if he had not died suddenly, but had a long lingering death, Mary would have been cut out of access to any decisions on his care. But she also would have been able to walk away from anything to do with his long term care and expenses.

My S/O and I have lived together for a long time, but we both worked in financial services, so we knew all of the ramifications. We’re beneficiaries of each account we have, pension, life, etc. The house is joint with the right of survivorship. The only thing I don’t have, but am working on is a healthcare proxy.

Until one of them says “Marry me or I’m outta here.”

Yes, the critical missing piece of paper was the will and delegating beneficiaries for his retirement assets. John was negligent in handling this situation and no women in that position would want to be the one to press the issue for fear of being labelled a gold digger. I know I would certainly feel that way, very touchy territory. I think couples that choose to not formally marry need to plan things out as @Adirondackwannabe has done.
I know that I am no longer marriage minded but if I ended up in a strong relationship again there would be much to consider in this respect.

In my case my assets are all gone now after my swan dive into the brackish undertow of this economic whirlpool the past handful of years but when I still had a home and savings I often pondered how I might proceed in the event I did find love again. Tricky situation.
Now I am feeling very one down and the thought of being financially dependent on a man scares me to death so I am not pursuing any romantic involvement. Looks like I’ll die with a couple of cats and a beloved painting and they will go to my daughter. haha

His mother kept the property and money without consideration of Mary? I can’t even imagine…

The document is indeed the will which can settle issues for which even the state of marriage lacks account.

That is a sad, sad story, and Mom must be a witch.

Married or not, if a person in a relationship has specific desires on how they want their estate handled, they better get it in writing, and preferably in the form of a legal document recognized by where ever they currently reside. And frankly, that goes for everyone, regardless of partnership status.

I had a will drawn up years ago when I took in a housemate. Even though common law marriage isn’t recognized here in Tennessee (and this relationship was platonic), the state law might have changed at any time and not hit my radar. I wanted to make sure that, should something happen, my wishes for estate disbursement and any medical directives were crystal clear.

And on the subject of TN, the state does not recognize same-sex marriages. Because of this, five friends who have been living with their partners for 10+ years in the houses they own would have to have a will, etc. I’ve never asked them if they do.

My situation is different. The SO and I have been together for eight years, but ~half of the year is spent in the US and the other half with him in England. Once I move there, we have no choice but to marry, which is what we both want anyway. When that happens, I will definitely have a new will made out so that he is responsible for medical directives and inherits any estate assets. We’ve talked about it enough on the front end and will continue to do so as curve balls are thrown our way.

Three days to a week.

Hopefully (or you would think hopefully) in the OP’s example of “John and Mary,” John’s mother who inherits his estate will be considerate of Mary and what Mary’s invested in the property and accounts. Now if John’s mother is on her last legs (one foot on a banana peel, one in the grave as they say), then it all goes to her children and Mary is at their mercy. That’s not a good spot for Mary to be in.

@LuckyGuy: Can you please clarify as to whether or not John’s mother is being fair about giving something up to Mary, or is she holding on to everything?

An estate planning attorney that I used to work for when I was in college told me, when I asked him who should have a will, that anybody who owns a house/property or who has children should make out a Last Will and Testament.

The OP’s example is a good reminder to all who have a domestic partnership without a formal marriage. I’m all for being as casual and as relaxed as you feel you want to be in your personal relationships, but this is a good reminder of the need to tie up loose ends.

@jca Exactly.

I wonder what legal plans the SO’s nieces and nephew have in place. All three are in long-term relationships with children. None are married. The laws in England may be clear-cut, but now I wonder if they have even talked about it with their partners.

Mary called me in tears because she could not believe what was happening. John’s mother offered to let Mary use the cottage for life – as long as Mary pays for the upkeep and utilities. The mother put it in her own name. Mary thinks the mother wants to leave it to John’s brother (or someone else on her side of the family tree) when she dies.
Incredible!
The awful thing is his 401(k). There is just about $0.5 M in there and his mother grabbed it all. She has said nothing about sharing.

And about the piece of paper. If they had been married, John’s estate would have gone to Mary. unless he specified otherwise.
Any number of things could have fixed this. A will, a beneficiary election, a marriage certificate. He had none so New York State laws decrees it goes to his mother.
This is so sad – and ugly.

That is heartbreaking.

This is actually more common than it is unusual. When someone dies and there’s money out there watch out. The knives come out in a hurry.

@LuckyGuy While I do feel sad for “Mary”, was it really all that committed a relationship if John never included her in any of his finances? What if she had died first, would anything have been left to him?

@zenvelo I do not know if Mary was as lax as John.

She did get some money from a life insurance policy he had from work. At least he filled out that beneficiary box.

To be honest, this has convinced me to get my papers in order. Guys tend to think we’re invincible and will live forever. Most of the time we are wrong.

(“Most” of the time? LOLL!)

I think your example is about inheritance contracts, and could be arranged with other contracts (e.g., a will) other than a marriage, if that’s what the couple wants. Some couples may also object to some things that the law does with marriage contracts, and/or for other reasons feel more authentically bonded without a marriage. I’d say it’s up to the couple and what they want and what makes sense for them, and then communicating that effectively to each other, their community, and the law. Which isn’t easy to do accurately unless you’re all agreed with the conventions and laws.

In sum, I don’t think a set time limit makes sense in general, although I’m sure some people have their own ideas about it.

Hmm. Let me consult the Great Catalogue of Crap That Other People Concern Themselves With That is None of Their Fucking Business.

If the estate is worth over $5million then a will isn’t enough to avoid taxes. You have to be married to inherit it without taxation. I know most people aren’t inheriting $5m estates, but if the law reverts back to $1 that includes a lot of people.

In many states property owned by married couples is treated differently by the law than property owned by two people in other ways. Joint tenancy and tenancy in common is not the same as tenancy in the entirety (married couple).

I know 2 situations close to me where you would hope a family member would do what would seem to be the right thing for a spouse, mother, or child in the absence of a will, but very happily took their property and money the law gave them and didn’t share a penny over what was required. One case was my grandmother. Supposedly, there was a will, long story, and in the end it was nowhere to be found. If you knew the whole story you would understand why we were upset about. We truly believe his wishes were not carried out by his son.

It’s really easy not to get around to making a will. Plus, a will is typically much much more expensive than getting married and besides will there might be extra money for constant legal documents to
Protect each other’s rights.

To answer the question. People can live together as long as they want. Everyone should probably understand better the rights they gain and lose being married and being married.

@Adirondackwannabe makes a good point. When someone dies, it’s not uncommon for the relationships that were tied together by those people’s lives to disintegrate. Then it becomes “who does she think she is?” and “why should I give him that?” and “he’s out of his mind if he thinks he’s getting that.” I’ve seen it happen in my own family and in personal relationships.

@Espiritus_Corvus Unfortunately Mary made it my business when she called me in tears asking for help. I did not know the ins and outs of this issue but I did do some research and saw how their lax attitude ended up screwing her.
Hopefully this painful lesson will convince a few people to get their acts together. It sure worked for me.

Did you do your will? And did you get your PSA results? ;-)

@Espiritus_Corvus wow…..didn’t expect that from you. I’m glad he asked the question.

Me, too, @Dutchess_III. It’s a good question to get people thinking.

@LuckyGuy, @Dutchess_III , et al: I apologize. Once again, I didn’t read the details, just the question. No excuse. Sorry.

You’re so cool @Espiritus_Corvus! :D

@Espiritus_Corvus Hey. You know I lurve ya.
Now get that prostate checked. ;)

If one doesn’t want that useless piece of paper, then they should take death as a break up, if one leaves they will not have anything they did not own jointly.

Another point that a lot of people overlook is your income tax filing status. Most of the time (not always, but most) a Married Filing Jointly status is more advantageous than Married Filing Separately. Getting married lets you file jointly.

@JLeslie makes a very good point. Also, marrieds get to exclude up $500,000 in capital gains on the sale of their principal residence, whereas a single person can exclude only $250,000, and this is pretty straightforward for a married couple. Two singles could probably still manage to the derive the full $500K in benefits (when their individual portions are added together) if they title things appropriately and juggle some documents, but I don’t know all the ins and outs. Consult your tax advisor.

Oh dear. I wrote “I hope the mother does the right thing” and then went back and read she hasn’t done the right thing. What a mess. I agree with @zenvelo, what is missing is the will not the marriage certificate. Can she go to court? Is there anyway, any evidence, that shows they were in effect a long-term, although unmarried couple and what the man’s intentions were towards Mary? What a sad story @LuckyGuy. I’m as guilty as the next of letting things slide. I must remind my husband that we need to redo our wills. They’re okay but they need an update. Most of us are guilty of ‘meaning to do things’ but getting too busy.

@JLeslie There are plenty of good will writing programs out there, and they are perfectly legal and stand up in court to being contested. You can get the programs pretty cheaply, and then spend $15 to have your signature notarized which establishes the date. No need to go to an attorney.

@zenvelo I’d be nervous about it, especially for a large estate. That’s just me, I’m uncomfortable with legal matters. Marriage licenses cost between $20—$100 I think? Depending in the state. Unless it has changed drastically.

You don’t need a will to make people beneficiaries on life insurance, you can put survivor information on bank accounts. When you buy a house you can put it in both names, unless you only want your SO to own it after your death. A lot can be done without a will.

The point really is the legal stuff has to be done somewhere and done correctly, or someone can get screwed.

Sometimes the opposite scenario happens than what this Q mentions and the wife gets everything and the children from a first marriage get nothing.

My mom has a friend, let’s call her Meg, whose father had a first marriage and had two children. Then in his second marriage he had Meg. Her father was always very close still to his children from the other marriage. They were all together often. He provided for them. It wasn’t like he started a new family and forgot the old one.

Meg’s dad owned a huge property in NYS. Something like 50 acres. I don’t remember exactly. He owned it before the second marriage. One of his first children lives in a house on it. There was another house the family would vacation in. When he died everything went to his wife. When she eventually died everything went to Meg, because Meg was her daughter. The other children asked Meg to split the property. She wouldn’t. They wound up taking Meg to court and the court sided with Meg. Meh is our family friend, but we feel she was dead wrong. The court ordered that the one half sibling be allowed to continue to live in the house, which Meg was ok with anyway from what I remember.

@Earthbound_Misfit You wrote “I must remind my husband that we need to redo our wills.”
Great! My job here is done!

We have a similar situation @JLeslie. When I die, I want any of my property, with the exception of the proceeds of a specific life insurance policy, to go to my husband. However, on his death, I would want him to will my half of any property he has to my children. I can’t insist on that though. The only way to be sure they will receive my property is to will it to them. If I die, he inherits my property, and he then remarries someone with children, I can’t prevent him then willing what is really half my property to his new partner. It will be his property because I willed it to him. While I trust him, I don’t necessarily trust any future partner he might have if I predecease him. However, I don’t want to leave him in an awkward situation because I’ve willed my property to my children. Some of which is jointly owned with my husband. I don’t think my children would do anything unethical or that they know is against my wishes but again, what if they have unscrupulous partners? Ugh! I think sometimes people don’t put wills and the like in place because it can feel too hard to deal with.

We’ve talked about these things and know exactly what we want to happen and we do have wills.