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LostInParadise's avatar

What are the objections to the theory of memes?

Asked by LostInParadise (32183points) June 18th, 2015

It seems to me to be transparently obvious, but I have seen various objections which make little sense to me. The theory is fairly simple. There are three key components.

1. Ideas travel from one person to another. For those of us who are materialists, we have to assume that these ideas have some sort of physical configuration (meme) in our brains. If you are not a materialist, you have to at least accept that in some sense ideas exist inside of you or have become a part of you.

2. These ideas are parts of the colony of ideas in us. Individual ideas can be modified or perhaps rejected.

3. Ideas can improve our fitness.

We therefore have the three necessary and sufficient conditions for evolution – reproduction, variation and selection. Culture is the phenotype of memes just as out physical phenotype comes from genes. Good ideas will favor the health and social position of their holders, who will then spread these ideas to others.

You can say that we can use our power of reason to distinguish good ideas from bad ones, but in the final analysis the ideas that persist are the ones that have the most benefits. For example, we can argue over whether religion makes sense, but from a memetic point of view, it has been very successful, although, as a side note, I would say that religion is declining in industrial countries because it has outlived is usefulness, but that is a topic for another day.

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13 Answers

stanleybmanly's avatar

Excellent and informative dissertation. Would you care to address the occurrence and proliferation of stupid or destructive ideas?

LostInParadise's avatar

Dangerous mutations analogous to hemophilia.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Yes but a great many of them seem every bit as persistent and robust as the “good” ones.

Zaku's avatar

1. See the contrasting theory of morphic fields. Individuals don’t explain all of the behaviors of groups, just as DNA doesn’t explain how a finger knows to be a finger and not an elbow. Ideas seem not to be confined to individuals. Dogs react when their owners, miles away, decide to come home. Etc.

2. Culture isn’t directly analogous to genes. Genes are physical codes. Ideas and culture are very different sorts of things, and change and are spread or lost in different ways.

3. Good and bad are relative and require choosing a standard to assess them. Survival and quantity isn’t necessarily good unless you arbitrarily define good to mean survival and quantity. (If so, then you’d tend to conclude McDonald’s is really good… but you really just mean good at growing. Cancer is also good at growing. It’d be more meaningful to talk about spread and persistence of ideas, rather than muddying the words good and bad.)

4. What “final analysis” concludes that persistent ideas “have the most benefits” compared to well-reasoned ones? Destroying the planet for short-sighted greed and the benefit of already-too-powerful corporations that corrupt government is really persistent, but not good… (at least it will be wiped out eventually because it’s unsustainable, but at what cost?) Similarly with habits, many habits are very persistent but quite detrimental. Whether an idea persists or not is often disconnected from its value, again unless you merely define good as persistent (indeed, that seems like a persistent meme-like fallacy itself – i.e.thinking of everything in terms of survivalist competition and reducing it to good vs bad).

LostInParadise's avatar

1. Morphic fields have no scientific evidence to support them
2. I should have used the term successful rather than good. I did not mean to imply any moral judgment. In a sense the idea of survival of the fittest is tautological.
3, (see 2)
4. Unless and until the damage done by short term greed is recognized, it is going to continue to be the more successful meme. This is the responsibility of the entire electorate. The rich can outspend up but they can’t outvote us.

Zaku's avatar

Morphic fields do have scientific evidence to support them. The theory mainly describes the sort of thing that seems to be pointed to by evidence which calls for some such phenomenon, whatever the cause. See for example http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/morphic/morphic_intro.html

LostInParadise's avatar

Rupert Sheldrake is generally regarded among scientists as a crackpot

Zaku's avatar

Cambridge and Harvard consider Sheldrake a PhD professor of biochemistry, and a fellow of philosophy and history of science. Scientists often have unfortunate an unscientific defensive reactions to theories that involve animal intelligence, telepathy, and so on, because they challenge entrenched thinking and their professional academic positions – calling someone a crackpot isn’t scientific – especially someone who takes their research seriously and does publish evidence to back it up.

Though really, the evidence shows things like animals reacting to the thoughts and emotions of people they’re connected to at a distance, and other abilities of animals that don’t have any explanation other than that there is no way a traditional understanding of their senses can explain how they can navigate the way they do – for example, newborn birds hatched and left behind by the parent generation, can later migrate to catch up to them even at a new location on another continent. The theory of morphic fields as Sheldrake explains it doesn’t say “ooh, I know the magic way this works” – it says there is a whole class of observed behavior that has no conventional physical explanation, which seems to all fall into a general category of group consciousness that has certain things in common – let’s give it a name and see if we can develop our understanding of what’s going on through scientific theory and investigation. Calling him a crackpot for that, seems to me to just be defensive behavior that the scientific community does too much of.

LostInParadise's avatar

This column by Michael Shermer in Scientific American magazine gives a good description of an example of the shoddy methods Sheldrake uses. At the end of the article Shermer points to claims by Sheldrake that are unfalsifiable. This is not proper execution of scientific method. Sheldrake has abandoned science in favor of pseudoscience.

Zaku's avatar

Shermer’s first point is that research was gathered by a web page and so is invalid. However, Sheldrake doesn’t only collect data from web pages. The Sheldrake I’ve read refers to actual controlled experiments which he explains, discusses his approaches in detail, including possible alternate explanations, and gives statistical data for.

Then Shermer asserts: “Second, psychologists dismiss anecdotal accounts of this sense to a reverse self-fulfilling effect: a person suspects being stared at and turns to check; such head movement catches the eyes of would-be starers, who then turn to look at the staree, who thereby confirms the feeling of being stared at.” But again, if Shermer had actually read Sheldrake, he’d find that he discusses actual studies which statistically (not just anecdotally) show that people who are asked to say whether they feel like they are being watched, with neither the asker nor the askee having any way of knowing whether it’s true (random sequence, and in some experiments even via closed circuit TV), and the results showed that there is an actual measurable influence, which varies by person.

Shermer’s third debunk attempt cites two failed attempts to reproduce the results. Ok cool, that would seem to suggest that either the observation thing is wrong, or that there was something that had it not occur – I’d love to see someone not biased seriously study the difference to see what’s going on, and from reading Sheldrake’s attitude in his books, I think he would too.

The fourth and fifth points are assertions about confirmation bias, which Sheldrake is aware of and discusses. He also discusses cases where several skeptics have tried to reproduce his experiments and did get very similar results. Given the nature of the experiments, and examples of placebo effect studies where doctors who believe they’re giving actual drugs have better results giving placebos to patients, it implies to me that the “being watched” tests may tend not to work if the experimenters are disbelieving enough – either by a field effect or by a more meme-like effect. Which, moving on to page 2, is what Shermer says Sheldrake’s reply was:

“Sheldrake responds that skeptics dampen the morphic field, whereas believers enhance it. Of Wiseman, he remarked: “Perhaps his negative expectations consciously or unconsciously influenced the way he looked at the subjects.”
Perhaps, but wouldn’t that mean that this claim is ultimately nonfalsifiable? If both positive and negative results are interpreted as supporting a theory, how can we test its validity? Skepticism is the default position because the burden of proof is on the believer, not the skeptic. ”

Well, not really, though it may make it more difficult, and more likely that traditional material scientists will give up because their tradition is to think only in terms of physical things. The negative results may be showing something interesting and useful about why some people seem to sense being watched, and others don’t (which Sheldrake had already reported). Subjectively, it makes sense to me, as I’m sure that if I were in the mindset that there’s no way I can really know when I’m being watched or not, that I’d just give random responses to whether I felt that way or not.

Shermer’s characterization of Sheldrake seems grossly unfair to me, having read Sheldrake and seen his consciousness of scientific objections, his attention to scientific detail, his preference for mundane explanations, and his data. His experiments take great effort to avoid any possibility of results from mundane sense observations, or from pattern recognition, or from subconscious tips from observers (he takes pains to be certain the observers in contact with subjects do not know the information the subject shows an ability to sense, and when there is that possibility, he acknowledges it and often runs another experiment and compares the two sets of data to see if there was such an effect).

LostInParadise's avatar

I am going to let you have the last word, but I would appreciate a reference to Sheldrake’s work in this area. It should be possible to set up a double blind experiment to settle this matter.

LostInParadise's avatar

Thanks, I will look at them when I get a chance

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