Does anyone think the shooting in Charleston is a Christian event?

Lindsay is generally pretty smart, but on this one he’s a total ass.

But this is politics, and he is running for president. So this fits into the “attack on Christians” narrative.

The real problem is that Graham will run into is that the killer is more than likely Christian as well.

But who needs facts?

Persecuted Christians looks better than racist white guy. Fox News was the first to go with this narrative.

The dude has a picture of him with a apartheid era South African flag patch on his jacket.

When Lindsay Graham said that I don’t know that he was referring to this young man in particular since he said that he had no idea of motive (other than the fact that one of his relatives went to high school with this kid and described him as widely known for being “strange”) so this much more likely points to some type of mental illness.

I doubt that there are a significant number of people here in the the USA looking to kill Christians. However, neither Christians nor Jews would fare so well in certain areas of the Middle East.

I should add, to be fair, that he did talk about racism and seemed to imply at first that it probably was partly a hate crime or race related crime, bug then he threw that statement in. It just really annoyed me.

I’m upset about the persecution, threats, and even murders in some countries against Christians. The world should be rising up against it, but in America? I’m sorry, I understand some Christians feel their rights are being taken away, and I can see their perspective on some of it, even though I usually don’t agree, but they are not being killed or prevented from entering their churches in America. This shooting is in America by an America young man. I’m tired of leaders creating a religious war against Christianity to rile them up and create more loyalty.

I think Lindsay Graham is a nice man, but ugh.

@Buttonstc A woman on The View asked Graham if he thought it was mental illness or a hate crime and he said probably a little of both, or possibly both. I don’t remember his exact wording on that and I just deleted it from my DVR.

Here is a link that plays the interview with Lindsey Graham on The View. In a nutshell, he doesn’t say that he believes the shooting to be about Christians or race. When questioned about the current status of race relations and violence is, he mentions both as an ongoing issue that the US still has.

What he does state is that he believes that the accused has “tons of problems” and “is just wacked out”. This is based upon information provided to him through his sister, which came from her daughter who attended 8th grade with the accused. That raises a red flag on his credibility.

^^He seems to very much care about race relations and hate crimes.

Why did he mention Christians being targeted at all during that conversation? How does it relate in your opinion?

I want to add that I find it interesting other people heard it the way I did. I thought it wouldn’t get any play and just go over most heads. I’m surprised to see the headline of your link.

Every time somebody does something crazy, everybody else has some notion as to what it is all about.

And it is sort of a free ride, because lunatics are pretty inscrutable, so nobody knows for sure so any idea is a possibility.

But we can certainly agree on one thing.

The shooter was not a peaceful angel tragically trapped in the body of a sociopathic killer.

We can agree on that, right?

@JLeslie Are you asking me? If so, he mentioned that the shooting took place in a Christian church. It was one of the interviewers who brought up the question on whether it might be religious-based or race-based. Both are obvious assumptions that a person might cling to.

I suggest that you watch the clip again. I will as well. Maybe one of us missed something.

@Pied_Pfeffer Yes, I was asking you. I was just being lazy not wanting to type out your username. Lindsey turns the conversation towards it being possibly being an act against Christians. Rosie mentions the history of the church, and I think most people are bothered when such a vicious act happens in a religious place, but I don’t think any of the women of The View were talking about the possible hate crime being against Christians. I could be wrong.

My question here is did any jellies leap to this being an act against Christians when they heard the story? My mind doesn’t go there at all.

On many many Q’s I have given the example of having the thought in my head while in a synagogue, here we are, a bunch of us all in one place, and that probably at least some people from other minorities groups must think the same way in their places of worship. It’s one thing I think I can empathize with regarding the black experience, although I would never claim to fully understand their experience.

When you heard the story did you think it was an act against Christians?

Crap. I spelled Lindsey wrong in the main Q.

It’s undeniably a ‘Christian event’ in that it happened to Christians in a Christian church.

The rest will have to be sorted out as information becomes available. The news reports that I heard claimed he was with/prayed with the congregation for an hour before the attack. Somehow he didn’t find what he was seeking. He knew it was a well known black, Christian church, so one of the three factors set him off – race, religion or notoriety – and the others fit in to a degree.

I just hope they catch him alive.

@johnpowell I just googled because of your answer and a bunch of Fox News stories came up regarding this. I had no idea. So, the “Republicans” are running with that I guess.

@ibstubro They caught him already.

So, in your mind this guy purposely targeted Christians?

I want to add that I don’t know what this crazy mass murderer was thinking. It’s possible he didn’t go in and kill a bunch of random people. Maybe he was stalking a particular person or two and they were in the church and other people unfortunately were there wrong place wrong time. It might not be a hate crime against black people.

What I am saying is I definitely don’t leap to this being a hate crime against Christians. I could be wrong, but my mind just doesn’t go there.

@JLeslie The SC police have the main suspect in custody. (Innocent until proven guilty.)

To answer your question, when I first saw the headline and read the report, I didn’t leap to any assumption on the motive. I will confess that the thought of, “How many more gun incidents will it take before the US implements more stringent gun control laws?” came to mind.

@Pied_Pfeffer That first thought makes perfect sense to me.

My first thought also was along the lines of “another mass shooting.” All I knew was it was in a place of worship. I didn’t know it was a black Christian church at first. Once I learned more details I still never thought it was violence against Christians. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying where my mind goes.

This is pretty obviously motivated by racism, not religion.

“You don’t have to do this,” he told the gunman, Ms. Washington recounted. The gunman replied, “Yes. You are raping our women and taking over the country.”

The suspect wore white power flags on his jacket.

How could anyone think he was specifically targeting Christians? That’s quite a reach.

I wouldn’t take anything seen/heard on the view seriously. Garbage show… just sayin..

On hearing the news reports, I didn’t get the feeling that Christians were being singled out to be killed in that incident. But there are people who want to kill Christians, just not that particular shooter in that particular instance. Maybe the comment was taken out of context.

@dappled_leaves “Pretty obviously” leaves some room for doubt, right? It’s obvious that it is a hate crime. As more information comes to light, it is more likely due to race and not religion. It sounds like Dylann Roof has some sort of mental problem.

The thing is,we don’t know how much information Mr. Graham had at the time he was being interviewed.

@kritiper It is being taken out of context. “But it’s 2015, there are people out there looking for Christians to kill them,” Graham added. “This is a mean time we live in.” This is said from the bigger picture, not this specific incident.

It’s not being taken out of context. He is injecting it into a conversation where it has no context. They weren’t talking about Christians in the Middle East being persecuted, having their churches taken over, and bibles from hundreds of years ago being destroyed (all happening right now and completely horrifying to me) they were talking about this white young man shooting down people in a black church in SC. Why he saw fit to talk about Christians being targeted I. The world now I don’t understand.

When the Christians in the KKK were setting fire to black churches that wasn’t about hating Christians.

When a gang member is killed on church property that isn’t a Christian event.

I agree we don’t have all the information and neither did Graham probably. Although, he might have been privy to the interview the police had with the witness. Graham actually announced on The View the gunman was caught before ABC had reported it. My point is, at a black church it doesn’t leap to my mind it is a crime against Christians, but the right wingers go right there and seize the opportunity.

Maybe because I’m not Christian, because of history, and because I’ve been in Southern churches that preach Christians are being targeted and persecuted in America I’m a little annoyed.

I don’t know @JLeslie . When headlines of news reports state, Lindsey Graham downplays race after black church shooting: People ‘looking for Christians to kill them’, that is a reporter twisting Mr. Graham’s statements to imply that he thinks the motive was anti-Christian based.

At the time of the interview, he said, “I think they may have caught the guy. I’ll let somebody else confirm that.” This goes back to the “innocent until proven guilty” mentioned earlier.

When asked by Ms. Simone if he thinks it is a hate crime or someone mentally disturbed, he says, “Probably a bit of both. There are real people out there who are organized to kill people in religion and based on race. This guy’s just wacked out.” He adds, “But it’s 2015. There are people out there looking for Christians to kill them. So this is a mean time we live in.” The topic ends there and moves on to his presidential campaign.

It’s fair for anyone to wonder if the mass shooting was based on religion since it took place in a house of worship. It’s also fair to question if it might be race-related due to the shooter being white and the victims black.

I understand that the question is about what first came to mind and is only asking for speculation. When statements that call an accused person the culprit without official proof, when people say they know the motive based upon bits of possible evidence reported before all of the facts are in and assessed by credible sources, and when the press uses misleading headlines to capture readers’ attention and it is compounded by their assumptions, then we continue to have problems.

@Pied_Pfeffer Way high up in the answers in this Q I stated Graham did talk about race and seemed to be saying it was possible in his mind this shooting was race related. I did not even know the media picked up on his statements on The View until this Q. I watched him on The View, I got annoyed he turned the conversation to Christians being in danger. No one on The View commented on his comment about Christians. He wrapped up his segment squeezing that in at the end. I had no idea Fox News did the twist. I wrote this question from my own mind and my own reaction having heard the words straight from Graham’s mouth.

I’m not trying to turn the shooting into some sort of proof the country is horribly racist. I agree with Graham that I don’t feel it is representative of SC or the country. I do think there are some racist people here, but I think it is an incredibly small minority of people and you have to mix in some serious other issues for them to actually kill someone in my opinion.

This one guy appears to me to be racist, or paranoid, or something, I’m not wanting to dwell on this situation as a hate crime against black people as much as I would want to know why he was moved to actually kill people so we can prevent things like this in the future. Additionally, to your point, find out how he had a gun. Much like when children are gunned down in a school, I don’t dwell on the children being targeted or a school being targeted, but rather what is going on in the mind of the gunman. I don’t mean to say I don’t dwell on the terrible loss, I mean I don’t dwell on what the victim might represent. As in all children or all black people or all Muslims, etc. even though I do think it is important to know who and why that group is targeted and if there is a trend. What I only object to is it being twisted into a Christian crime for political gain. There isn’t a trend of Christians being gunned down in America. Christians aren’t being prevented from attending church. I know some of them feel stifled in the public arena.

For me this is to raw to even try to come up with the “why’s”.
It was obviously racially motivated, and if it was faith motivated then it probably had more to do with the shooters belief that the church had somehow bastardized his faith by having left leaning political views.
When the mourning is over, I hope this country is one step closer to having an honest, more transparent discussion about race
Right now though is a time for mourning. A time to respect the lives lost, the promise unfulfilled. There is little room for more than tears.

@JLeslie It sounds like we are basically on the same page. The number of hate crimes against Christians in the US is minimal, and the percentage pales compared to other hate crimes. Just look at these stats from the FBI. Keep in mind that they are only based upon stats from 2013 incidents, but it should be a decent representation of where the US is today.

Here is another article that breaks the same statistics down even further. While there is obviously a liberal slant to the article, it does provide some valuable information.

As for Mr. Graham’s comment, it is true. There have been hate crimes committed against Christians. The statement was ill-timed.

Why is there a debate at all as to the nature of the crime, other than “it’s a hate crime!”?

Most “hate” crimes are actually “fear” crimes. According to the ABCNews Report the shooter allegedly said: “You all rape women and you’re taking over our country.”

That sounds like fear to me; a deep-seated fear that those who fit his stereotype will cause bad things to happen for him and his loved ones.

It appears you’re not the only one asking the question @JLeslie

@Pied_Pfeffer Thanks for the links. I don’t like that the author of the second link calls some of the leaders of these crimes “right wing” because I use that term to describe the far right of the Republican party and I never mean to imply they are criminals or even hateful. As you said that article obviously has a bias.

The thing that clinched for me that Christian political, and even church leaders, scare their followers (with flat out lies sometimes) to increase attendance and votes was when I attended a wedding at the First Evangelical Church in Memphis on the east side of I240 north of Poplar. During the ceremony the Pastor said he was proud of the bride and groom for being Christian during a time when it’s unpopular and some other chosen words about society being against Christians, it became crystal clear to me that in some churches Christians are constantly told people hate them. Sounds like a very effective tool to me. It is very purposeful much of the time I believe. It was a wedding! A happy time and we were all happy to celebrate the union between these two beautiful Christian people. Why was there talk of society being against them? I’ll never be ok with that at a wedding. I also don’t like scaring people when it’s not warranted.

@Yetanotheruser That’s a really good question. It is a hate crime. It was not an act of self-defense. The reason it is important to know the true motive behind the crime is to bring about awareness. It may dispel the statements of those playing judge from their armchair view, especially when in positions of power.

Unfortunately, it’s a double-edged sword. Those that make statements which are later proven wrong may be quickly forgotten. Those that speculated and are eventually proven right may feed the fodder that felt the same way.

Unless it comes to light that the guilty party was a member of a hate crime group that targets people affiliated with another group, it should be considered as a crime carried out by one individual that clearly needs help.

@JLeslie Yeah, the reporter’s message didn’t sit well with me either for different reasons, but you probably have a point.

As far as the message delivered from the minister conducting that wedding, it is understandable that you would be put off by it. I would, too.

Earlier you said, “I’ve been in Southern churches that preach Christians are being targeted and persecuted in America I’m a little annoyed.” May I ask how many Christian church services you have attended? And of those, how many mentioned recent Christian persecution?

The reason for asking is that I have attended Christian services for most of my life, although it is less frequent now. The majority took place in the South. This includes Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, and a couple of Baptists. None have ever mentioned modern-day persecution of Christians.

@Pied_Pfeffer Valid question. I probably made that sound like bunches of churches when that is not the case. I was just referring to the wedding and there has been one other. That it happens at all troubles me. Plus, if you count my Christian friends who sing this tune sometimes of America being against Christians they are getting it somewhere. Whether it be media, politicians, church leaders or just peers.

Mind you, I don’t feel they are preaching hate against any groups, but rather keeping their own population in a state of feeling an “us against them” mentality. Christians against “them.” Or, more accurately them against Christianity. At the same time I feel most Christians don’t fundamentally feel this way when with their community, friends, workplace. I don’t feel like they look at a Muslim colleague and are suspicious, or a Jewish friend and think that person wants to take away Christian rights.

Mostly, it all always feels very political to me. When I hear a Jewish person say they are worried about wearing their Star of David because of a recent outbreak of antisemitism I don’t feel they say it for political reasons. Maybe that is unfair. I realize my perspective is biased.

Do you think white Christians should feel nervous going into their churches if that shooter was still at large? Would you think maybe black churches would be legitimately nervous if he was spotted in the area?

I don’t take Sen. Graham’s statement seriously at all. To me, since this is the beginning of the 2016 Presidential race, this sounds like something he is expected to say in order to gain the support of his Party’s ecumenical base. For me, this clearly was about race, not religion. Or not.

It is clear that the alleged shooter has multiple issues that are clouding his judgement. That is, unless he is the embodiment of pure evil.

That this took place in a historic black church is sickening. However, I fail to see how this qualifies as a hate crime against Christians as part of the mythical “war on Christianity” people like Sen. Graham seem to see around them. If this alleged war truly existed, then where are the mass attacks in white churches?

We may never fully understand what motivated and triggered this unspeakable act. It is possible that the alleged shooter will be deemed mentally unfit to stand for trial, in which case he will disappear from the nation’s awareness. Even if he does stand trial, his innermost triggers & motivations might not become clear.

I just thought about the last part I just wrote and probably a whole town would be nervous if the shooter was spotted, so my example isn’t very good.

I was not a Christian event, but thank God they were in the family, he thought he harmed them, but he liberated them from this dung heap and ushered them into the Throne Room with Christ.

I’d class it very firmly as an American event.

@JLeslie It did sound like there was more than one Southern Christian church service attended that preached this message. That alone may perpetuate a stigma of the South on this site that isn’t credible. Some of us who live here are still battling ongoing issues that should have been resolved years ago. Comments made that are not founded in fact just fuel the fire for those that latch onto them who are willing to accept them based upon their beliefs and not willing or able to do some research.

Sure, there are Christian groups that believe that they need to spread the word, take their version of the Bible literally, and even act upon what their minister says or how they interpret it. These are the cases that hit the headlines. These are people who are missing the point of of what their religion is all about.

Do I think white Christians should feel nervous going into their churches if that shooter was still at large? Since we don’t know the motive yet, it wouldn’t surprise me if some white Christians did.

Would I think maybe black churches would be legitimately nervous if he was spotted in the area? Skin color doesn’t matter. If anyone reading the news reports spotted a person fitting the description of the alleged perpetrator, the facts provided thus far will probably result in protecting themselves and possibly others.

It only takes one act based on fact that can be ruled as a crime committed in the name of religion as long as the truth comes out. To apply it it others within the same social structure based upon an outsider’s opinion is a knee-jerk reaction.

The irony is that while this is being discussed, the trial of the Aurora shooter is ongoing.

I just heard on the news he said he almost changed his mind & didn’t shoot anyone because “everyone was being so nice to me”
The fucker spent an hour in that place contemplating the massacre.

@Pied_Pfeffer Another Christian Minister (relative of the groom) bothered me when my girlfriend got married and she specifically asked him not to include obey in the vows. He agreed. At the wedding he asked her to repeat she would be submissive and there was an audible gasp in the church. That was in Michigan, not the South. She still is pissed about it. Her wedding vows were not what she wanted.

I’m not trying to generalize to all Christians or even most. I know it must sound that way. I would only say that politicians, the media, and some Christians seem to seize on this idea that Christians, or Christianity, is under attack or in danger, and their danger just doesn’t compare to the real danger many minorities face statistically. Not that minorities in America are in constant danger with bad people all around them. It is a political tool to use the scare tactic.

It’s the loud mouths I’m really talking about. Not the group as a whole.

The first report of the shootings I heard gave the impression it was a racist attack and it mentioned the recent murder of a black guy by a policeman as having raised tensions. It’s a bit odd to me that he chose to commit his crimes in a church but there seems no doubt the guy is a racist.

@JLeslie * I’ve been in Southern churches that preach Christians are being targeted and persecuted in America I’m a little annoyed.* This is what was posted earlier. So far, only one example has been given. The other that took place in the north is irrelevant to the discussion, unless I am missing something.

I agree that some of the people who are vocal about their opinions make the news headlines. It also depends upon the news source and the notoriety of the individual. What worries me the most is the number of people willing to accept speculation as fact. It also bothers me when people make statements that generalize when it is solely based upon one experience.

Not all politicians or media members seize the opportunity to claim that Christians are in danger. The vast majority of Christians don’t either.

@flutherother Regarding that report, it mentioned that the victim was black. Did it happen to mention the skin color of the policeman? The reason for asking is that either the article or you failed to mention it. Not all police offers are the same color.

He probably drove past dozens of churches to reach Charleston. But he chose a historical icon of the black community to attack. I believe his actions, supported by his comments to the survivors, were racially motivated.

@Pied_Pfeffer That northern experience was a 3rd annoying experience that had nothing to do with what I was talking about earlier, that same preacher also said the way to keep the marriage together was to be Christian, however he worded it was offensive to me. I was just trying to say I don’t think only the south has churches that do things that bother me. Those three church experiences certainly don’t sum up my experience in all churches. I find Christian churches to typically be very welcoming; I haven’t been in very many though.

Aside from your upset about me overstating my experience, and I think your reaction is reasonable regarding how I stated it, I still maintain a lot of Christian leaders in the public eye are riling up the troops and I think it’s a bad thing. Especially, when it’s full of hyperbole.

Christians have valid reasons to feel on the defense about some things and they should just stick to that.

All political sides do some of it. Certainly liberal left wingnuts rile up people too. I even felt the person who wrote that one article you linked was too biased for my taste. I am criticizing what Graham said, and now that I know Fox was saying it, I criticize them too. It doesn’t mean I won’t be critical of the left doing the same sort of thing when they do it.

@Pied_Pfeffer The police officer in the earlier shooting was white. That’s what raised racial tensions. His name is Michael Slager and he and the church killer are now in adjacent cells in Charleston County jail.

Authorities have found a website that is probably the killer’s manifesto. It’s full of racist garbage. There are also pictures where he wears segregationist flags on his jacket.

So, with all this information coming to light it really is hard to deny that the right wing didn’t try to take a vicious, horrible, racist, violent act, and turn it into “their Christian brethren” being under assault in America.

Sorry, it doesn’t sit well with me. It feels like a twist on the facts and an attempt at propaganda. It detracts from those who were killed. It doesn’t show respect for the victims.

It also is not fair to the Christians out there who do all the right things, and don’t try to use power to manipulate people. When those good people have a valid argument about an injustice all of these blowhards pissing people off make it harder for the Christians who should be heard to have a chance. It creates more chances people will get annoyed or turn a deaf ear to the group in general, or at minimum to their political leaders who represent that base.