Is God really that interested in how we fornicate?

This being in General, I best stay on point. Only two words then…manic perceptions

God just likes to watch

God, if you’re a believer, has the power to be the ultimate Peeping Tom. I, who am a doubter, refuses to consider that He would stoop to use that power.

Yes, because there is no porn in heaven and he doesn’t own a DVR, so he wants to see_good_ fornication down here, not just boring old stuff. He likes to watch.

The answers that are given…..oy bey! But….it is expected here.

God is no more interested in unmarried people boinking or married people committing adultery than He is saints gossiping, or people murdering each other. He spent the time He has on it because, as proven so far, man can’t use it as it is intended and has been fooled to think it is just a harmless ”act of love”. Love is not an act, love is an action, and it far outstretched mere swapping of bodily fluids. If it was so much ”love” in it, there would not be so many children growing up in single parent households when both parents are still alive. Neither would the selfish act of murder disguised as a ”choice” be rampant. You would be able to cut the dysfunction in families by near half (though many here will argue that), same with STDs, and the spread thereof. What it really is, is an act of prolonged lust, but people have freewill to fool themselves.

He would only be interested so far as he would be amused and entertained by it.

You should ask Him
See if He answers

@Hypocrisy_Central . . . Since I can only speak for the emotions I feel during sex, I have always assumed it was an act of love. Being a fella who can’t read minds or speak for others and their emotions I have no other frame of reference.

Tell me, how have you managed to look in to the hearts and minds of people and glean their meanings? Is this something one is born with or is it a learned trait?

@josie . . . he keeps sending me straight to Voicemail

God sees everything every human ever does. Does he care about some human actions more than others? Some Christians would seem to think so – few (perhaps none) obey the statutes pertaining to eating shellfish, mixing fabrics in clothing, eating fat, or shaving beards (to provide only a few examples).

Condemning homosexuals is dependent on expecting God to pay more attention to one of these laws more than others. If this were not the case, they would equally condemn people who break any one of these laws. So, they must think that God is exceptionally interested in how we fornicate. To think otherwise would be centrally hypocritical.

As to why they think that homosexuality is an exception… presumably they must have personal reasons. There’s no biblical reason to hold that particular law in such high regard.

I don’t think God cares about us in the least let alone our fornication habits!

No. Gay-hating pastors are lying, in order to have what used to be a safe scape goat. They’re sick people who abuse their positions as supposedly spiritual leaders and who don’t care about all the suffering they cause.

I don’t think he cares as much as the Religious Right want us to believe.

According to The Bible, it would appear so. But it seems God is more concerned about who you fuck, rather than how. Is there anything in The Bible about anal sex?

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s ass donkey LOOOL

@Symbeline Sodom & Gomorrah

Holy shit I just looked it up real quick, so these guys wanted to rape an angel up the ass?

Dude The Bible is fucking awesome.

@Symbeline Yes, but Lot offered up his daughters instead. Nice guy.~

^{what she said}
He offered up his virgin daughters for all the men in town to rape instead, but they weren’t going for it.
The bible is full of weird kinky shit.

@chyna Wow, they didn’t teach me this in catechism when I was in school.

They stick to the Disney versions of everything these days. Wouldn’t want to give off the wrong impression right away, they have to ease you into it…like Scientology.

or anal

exactly. Easy does it.

BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA lol

Not any more than whether a person prefers Fords or Chevys.

I still struggle with how Joseph took the whole “i’m pregnant, but remain a virgin” shite.
C’mon Joey boy, use ya fuckin loaf, ya wife’s a whore man.

Jesus was gay

That’s why they all had beards back then, no anal bleaching see.

@Blondesjon Tell me, how have you managed to look in to the hearts and minds of people and glean their meanings? Is this something one is born with or is it a learned trait?
I look at the fruit, you can staple apples onto a fig tree and make it look like that from a distance, but up close, you see the real, and after a while, the apples start to rot, and you know it is not an apple tree.

@dappled_leaves Some Christians would seem to think so – few (perhaps none) obey the statutes pertaining to eating shellfish, mixing fabrics in clothing, eating fat, or shaving beards (to provide only a few examples).
And all incorrectly applied; I guess you might know that is a question not needing to be asked, but I would have to enroll you in Bible 101, to get you up to speed.

@ZEPHYRA I don’t think God cares about us in the least let alone our fornication habits!
—Yeah, that is why He left His majesty of heaven to come down as a man to fulfill the Law as to give you a chance to not be doomed after death by being the perfect sacrifice once and for all.—

@cheebdragon He offered up his virgin daughters for all the men in town to rape instead, but they weren’t going for it. The bible is full of weird kinky shit.
One—God did not tell him to do it, he did that in his own strength.
Two—He did not fathom they were truly angels able to fend for themselves.
Three—He did recognize them as being of God and thus had an important purpose, larger than that of his daughters or himself.
Four—He knew the men were not smart enough to touch his daughters, virgins or not, they wanted sausage and not tacos.

@Hypocrisy_Central “And all incorrectly applied; I guess you might know that is a question not needing to be asked, but I would have to enroll you in Bible 101, to get you up to speed.”

Well, I did ask you this as a separate question on another thread, but I assume you haven’t seen it yet. Surely, it does not require an entire course to explain why this is an “incorrect application”. A sentence or two should make it clear, if you would be kind enough to oblige.

^ The times you speak of were for the Jews under the dispensation of the Law (judgement), it was just a benchmark to let them know how wretched they were. Today we are under grace, all Believers; we are not subject to the Law. However, if you are not a Believer, you are judged off your works, and none has works well enough.

@Hypocrisy_Central But if that is true, then there must be a New Testament reason to reject homosexuality. Where is that?

@Hypocrisy_Central
One-I never said that God told him to do anything.
Two- It’s just a fairytale
Three- wtf kind of weak ass angels can’t defend themselves?
Four- Where exactly does it say that lot knew his daughters would be unharmed?
Five- If God knows everything, why would he have to send Angels to investigate?

@dappled_leaves But if that is true, then there must be a New Testament reason to reject homosexuality. Where is that?
I could show you all through the Bible, it was never accepted. However, what good would it be to point it out if you do not believe in the truth of the Bible anyhow, everything in it is a lie to you and you won’t believe it if I showed you one or 3 million examples, tell me I am wrong?

@dappled_leaves—I have no idea why @Hypocrisy_Central isn’t providing the New Testament bible verses for you. I shall do his work for you. Merry Christmas to him. I’m posting something that helps him prove his point. I’ve even used a site that only mentions the anti-gay interpretation so you can fully appreciate it.

However, this link includes three alternate interpretations of the verses. I was unfamiliar with the latter two interpretations until I posted the link. But I have heard the first interpretation for at least the last 25 years, so I’m sure it’s the most popular.

@Hypocrisy_Central—are you trying to hide these verses? Why didn’t you post them when someone asked you for them?

Also, with another set of New Testament verses, (which I can’t remember, and I can’t remember enough of the story to put the right words in Google to bring it up. It had something to do with a bunch of animals that were deemed unclean to eat in Leviticus appearing before someone and the voice of God telling the guy that he didn’t have to follow all the laws found in Leviticus anymore.) you could very easily explain why modern Christians can wear polyester blends. I don’t see how this bible story could be as dangerous as a toddler with a chainsaw. I learned the story when I was 5 and my entire Sunday school class survived the lesson.

I’m kinda sorta wondering if you’re not posting this stuff because you didn’t know the verses yourself and couldn’t be arsed to google for them.

@Symbeline offering up his daughters wasn’t the worst thing Lot did, he also had drunken sex with them in a cave after his wife turned into a pillar of salt. Genesis 19:30–36

There was a cult leader here in Québec called Roch Thériault during the 80’s. He was nicknamed Moïse (french version of Moses) and claimed he was protecting his followers from the Apocalypse through specific doctrines and lifestyle that would exempt them from God’s wrath on d day. And all he pretty much did was beat and rape his people, who were mostly women and kids he himself fathered, while drunk.

This is what this reminds me of.

The bible really seems like more of a “What not to do” guide to life.
What would Jesus do? Then do the opposite because obviously Jesus had very poor decision making skills.

@cheebdragon—actually, if you only followed what Jesus said in the Bible and ignored the rest of it, you’d live an amazingly good life. You’d devote your life to helping the poor. You’d understand that radical fundamentalists (aka Pharisees) had it all wrong. You’d do your best not to judge others because you were no better than they were. You’d be a pacifist. I could go on with more than several more….

Jesus was an awesome example of a man and an excellent teacher of how to live the best life possible for yourself and everyone around you. If everyone really lived exactly by the words of Jesus, we’d live in a great society.

If Jesus had actually existed ,I might be strongly temped to follow.

HC actually reminds me a lot of the preachers and teachers I had in church growing up. They, like he, pretty much refused to offer up any kind of real answer to any question posed, opting instead to duck the question with a “you wouldn’t understand” or “it’s not your place to question”. I finally surmised that ether they themselves did not know the answers, or they did know, but were afraid to say because they knew the answers would not hold up to scrutiny.

@keobooks I feel the same about King Arthur.

@Hypocrisy_Central . . . Is it truly Christian to intimate that folks are too stupid to understand the Bible the way that you do?

I’m no scholar but I’m pretty sure I never saw any passages where Jesus threw his hands up in the air during one of his teachings and said, “Thou art all too dim of wit to perceive mine Father as I.”

[Mod says]: Moved to Social with OP’s permission.

@Darth_Algar They, like he, pretty much refused to offer up any kind of real answer to any question posed, opting instead to duck the question with a “you wouldn’t understand” or “it’s not your place to question”.
I think you better look around or in the mirror, there is a lot of duck, dodging and hiding going on, with more hat dancing than Gregory Hines but it is not me. You might inquire of those people who try to use a book they have no knowledge how to use to deflect from making the point they can’t make because it has no teeth, and little to no merit. You are like the typical unbeliever, you seem so scared you are backing the wrong horse that you have to try to convince yourself and as many will listen that there are no other horses in the race.

@Blondesjon [ . . Is it truly Christian to intimate that folks are too stupid to understand the Bible the way that you do?
If a person keeps adding 4+4 and coming up with everything but 8 isn’t that fact proof enough he/she cannot add? If you believe you know as much or more about the Bible show me something correct, like how Salvation works as the Lord presented in the Bible, not some seeker friendly church version. I don’t have to the ignorance of scripture to anyone any more than I have to explain why someone who can reach 8 from 4+4 cannot add.

And more absolute nonsense from HC. Thank you proving the point.

@Hypocrisy_Central . . . 4+4 is 8 is ridiculously different than proving whether or not there is a Savior and and Salvation. I’m also pretty sure that in this instance the burden of proof is upon you to prove not me and, I’m guessing, basic math(?).

This type of answer is the entire reason for my previous post @you.

@Darth_Algar And more absolute nonsense from HC. Thank you proving the point.
The only point that was proven is that if I placed the cookies on the floor you still could not reach it. But keep quipping; the support lurve people are giving you will make you think you are actually correct in some way.

@Blondesjon I’m also pretty sure that in this instance the burden of proof is upon you to prove not me and, I’m guessing, basic math(?).
No it isn’t, that is the difference between a faith, and science, now that is so simple, I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If you want proof, you have to believe the textbook I am using is real, otherwise it is like a man standing before the skeleton of a T-Rex and not taking it into account. Faith is not a science that has to have a smoking gun, so unlike those who claim science (where there should be something to back up what is said) faith requires believe, if you don’t believe, you will never find it. Then you just stick with the facts and pay faith no mind.

@Hypocrisy_Central —“more hat dancing than Gregory Hines”—made me laugh. This was a good one.

But your response to @Blondesjon kind of confused me. It kind of goes all over the place with the textbooks, the skeleton of the T-Rex, and smoking guns. I just use my fingers to prove that 4+4 = 8.

Anyway, I posted a response to your Bible verses in one of the other bajillion Gay threads going around. I look forward to a response that is as carefully thought out and well worded as the one you gave @blondesjon here or I will get very jealous.

@keobooks @Hypocrisy_Central—are you trying to hide these verses? Why didn’t you post them when someone asked you for them?
I have no reason to hide God’s words, in fact I am trying to enlighten people with them. However, people who want to stay in their wickedness would never receive it even fathom there is any merit to the words. There is a quote: ”Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” —Mark Twain, and Proverbs 26:4 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Someone who ask for proof in a book they don’t believe is like trying to argue with a child who thinks there are monsters under the bed, even after the lights are on. If they don’t want to believe, I am taking my log off the ”foolhardy bon fire” less they burn me to death and let them burn out by themselves. I did post them because I believe you care to see them, look below.

It is useless, I am no prophet but let me predict exactly what is going to happen, the spin doctors who don’t believe the Bible, much less what it says, will either go back to their duck, dodge and hide technique and say the Bible and God is a myth and therefore none of the passages are real, they will ask questions with a passive aggressive attack on my faith or those of other saint, they will get back on their soapbox and try to use the behavior of saints behaving badly as an indictment against God, or they will try to get scripture to say what they want, even while calling it bogus.

Romans:24–27 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. NKJV

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. NIV

24 So God let them follow the desires of their sinful hearts. They did sinful things among themselves with their bodies. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie. They worshiped and cared for what God made instead of worshiping the God Who made it. He is the One Who is to receive honor and thanks forever. Let it be so.
26 Because of this, God let them follow their sinful desires which lead to shame. Women used their bodies in ways God had not planned. 27 In the same way, men left the right use of women’s bodies. They did sex sins with other men. They received for themselves the punishment that was coming to them for their sin. New Life Version (NLV)

Let the spin begin. When it says the natural use, other than biological how can you spin it, even if you take the Bible out of it, what is the function of men and women? What sexual sin can ne man do with another as the Scripture say? Men can have sex but there are some ways man can sin having sex with another man? I would like to see them find that, even if they had a Bible, I doubt they will.

1 Corinthians 6:9 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,..] NKJV

9 Do you not know that sinful men will have no place in the holy nation of God? Do not be fooled. A person who does sex sins, or who worships false gods, or who is not faithful in marriage, or men who act like women, or people who do sex sins with their own sex, will have no place in the holy nation of God. NLV

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men NIV

Let’s start with these. What do you call a man who has sex with other men? Wait….maybe they call him a jockey, a Smurf, maybe he is called a toadstool……or… wait for it …A HOMOSEXUAL. You will have someone try to concoct an excuse against what the Bible says, or try to pry that foot from their mouth, or come back like a politician with more spin then a carnival ride. Let them go ahead and try to spin it, then I will hit them with the right they did not see coming because the left made them dizzy. Then I am leaving the ring after the KO and they can high-five lurve themselves on another issue.

Seriously? You posted this exact thing again in another thread? You just cut and pasted it and posted the exact same thing from that thread into this thread? Not just the Bible verses, but the whole post? And you didn’t even change the silly typo where you screwed up the chapter and verse numbers of the Romans passage?

Did you forget that you already posted that? Are you unaware that I replied to you?

I just looked back at the other thread. Just a few minutes after cutting and pasting the post into this thread, you reply to my post where I replied to this exact post of yours that you posted over there!

This wins the prize for being the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen on Fluther! And I’ve seen lots of weird things!

^ It is not the same exact post, regardless, they are the same verses, I am curious if you are going to try and doctor them suit your aim or take them as is like the other verses you chose to post?

I’m not going to put these posts right next to each other to figure out what you changed. Oh wait.. You didn’t mention jockeys, smurfs and carnival rides in the other post. My bad for not noticing that the first time. Sorry. Now this post doesn’t seem weird to me at all!

^ I want to hear how you can override 1 Cor 6:9 to make it aceptable for gays to enter heaven when it shows they can’t maybe because they are outside the will of God. Unless you have a Bible that ushers them in?

JESUS fuckin Christ, what’s so wrong with sucking penises anyway, I suck penises, should I go to Hell too? Fuck already.

@hypocracy. You quote verses from Romans regarding lust in the heart and sinful desires. Yet you ask the most NSFW questions regarding sex and women’s bodies. Does this not pertain to you too?

@Hypocrisy_Central—I already posted that. I’m not going to do what you just did and cut and paste a huge thing of text from a post I wrote in another thread. But I will paraphrase.

1. You took the verse out of context. You took it out between two other verses that put that verse into different perspective when you read all three verses together, as they were written and as they were intended to be read.

2. You also removed it from the bible itself, and ignored that there are several different passages that have nearly identical condemnations of several different groups of people—not just homosexuals—for being outside the will of God.

3. You also removed it from the verses in the Bible where God allows all of these horrible people—not just gay people—into heaven because of his divine mercy.

Plucking a verse out of context, and using it to prove a point that can be disproved if you take the entire Bible as truth is called cherry picking.

Removing a single verse from a passage like that, while ignoring the other two verses that lay before and after it is the worst kind of cherry picking that you can do.

It’s as if you said, “I never said that I hate my mother! I love her dearly! And quoted you as saying ”... I hate my mother…”
—-
If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you. Only that there’s no way for me to post anything that satisfies you because you only want to believe that being gay is worse than other sins SO badly that you can’t see how your cherry picking is making several other verses that are much more spiritually important to Christianity than that one verse.

Note that I did not say that cherry picked verse was NOT true or said something different than what it said. I just said that all by itself it doesn’t carry as much weight as a verse like:

Romans 3:23—For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

But if you keep posting that you ” have yet to hear from me” about that verse, or all of your other cherry picked verses, I’m going to mock and ridicule you. Because even if you don’t agree with what I have said each and every time I’ve posted about all of these verses, you can’t pretend that you haven’t heard anything at all from me about it.

Just gonna run this up the flagpole & see if the cat wants to lick it :D
Jesus was gay!

@keobooks Since my popcorn has already flown, I think I’m now craving a bowl full of cherries, since they have been so kindly picked and are sitting there all juicy and gay ready for us to eat : )

@keobooks You also removed it from the bible itself, and ignored that there are several different passages that have nearly identical condemnations of several different groups of people—not just homosexuals—for being outside the will of God.
I have never said at any time or place that only gays had a special place at the front of the line of those the Bible said will not see the Kingdom…you missed there.

You also removed it from the verses in the Bible where God allows all of these horrible people—not just gay people—into heaven because of his divine mercy.
I think the Bible you are reading is incorrect. One doesn’t get to Heaven because of the mercy of God. The mercy is that while people are still wicked He doesn’t smoke them like bacon. His mercy was to provide a way in which man could be saved. If you have a passage that says that His mercy got people into heaven, even if not all people, please provide it, I would love to see it.

Only that there’s no way for me to post anything that satisfies you because you only want to believe that being gay is worse than other sins SO badly that you can’t see how your cherry picking is making several other verses that are much more spiritually important to Christianity than that one verse.
I guess you missed the other threads, I do no cherry picking, but I have said countless times, God sees homosexuality the same as He sees, stealing, gossiping, backbiting, fornication, murder, raping, cheating, and adultery, etc. either of them will bar one from Heaven. You (and others) want to much to make homosexuality OK that the Heaven you do not believe in, will accept them. That is worse than any cherry picking, that is distorting, fabricating, and bastardizing the Word, and of you know the word so well, you know what happens to those who do so.

But if you keep posting that you ” have yet to hear from me” about that verse, or all of your other cherry picked verses, I’m going to mock and ridicule you.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I have no fear of you or anyone else mocking me, those who tried only do so because their argument can’t stand and ridicule is all they have left. I don’t have to ridicule or mock anyone, because I have the Truth on my side, and greater is He that is in me then he that is in the world. Their failed attacks make a mockery of them, and of Fluther reducing it further to those other sites this place claims to be better than.

But let’s cut to the chase,
1 Timothy 3:13–17 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(So you can’t claim cherry picking because it was not surrounded by other scripture) Do you agree with everything mentioned here, especially verse 16? If you cannot believe that, then do not shoot any verses at me because if you don’t believe they are the irrefutable words of God, I will ignore them. Why would I even need to if you do not believe them, you cannot even use them in context or genuinely.

I just got back from vacation a dim too tired to address everything. But I am totally beyond shocked that you didn’t know that Gods grace is the ONLY thing that allows a sinner together. That was kind of the entire point to Jesus being born, living, dying, resurrecting. Seriously—that IS Christianity. We are vile sinners and are only allowed into the kingdom of heaven because of the divine grace and forgiveness. Belief in this is the ONLY requirement. Let me see if I can find a verse or two. This will be fun.

If you google “faith not works” you get a bunch of them. Several authors of the New Testament wanted to stress that not a single human is good enough or can do good works to fall in favor. You can point to the worst murdering fornicator you can find—in the eyes of God you are not any better than he is. The ONLY thing that saves you is the acceptance of the divine gift of god’s grace.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Titus 3:5 ESV He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies..

Romans 4:6–8 Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

Those are a lot of verses. I’m too tired to highlight all the juiciest goodies. But each and every one of those verses stress that:

Not one single human on the planet is worthy of eternal salvation. No sinner is better or worse. Sin is sin.

Jesus Christ’s death on the cross forgives ALL sins. ALL of them.

This forgiveness of sins is a divine gift of grace. And it is the ONLY way to eternal salvation

The ONLY requirement of this gift is belief.

Dude… How did you go to Sunday School and miss out on this? It is seriously the ENTIRE point of being a Christian. The crucifixion was the divine gift of God. It is the ONLY way you can be saved, and it is the ONLY requirement.

Yes, the laws you mention are important. You are supposed to try your best to follow every single one at all times. This isn’t so you can get into heaven, though. You’ve already been promised that when you asked for it. You follow the rules and do the works to show your deep appreciation and respect for God.

I’ve heard some ministers say that you get better rewards in heaven based on your works. Habitual sinners just get a “basic package” type deal when they get there. I never bothered to look that up. But I guess I could later..

But in the end you will fail at not sinning. You cannot escape sin because sin is your nature. And no sin is worse than another in the eyes of God. Sin is sin is sin…

But the good news is, once you have asked for eternal salvation, you have it.

I do believe that HC may be the only self-professed Christian I’ve ever encountered in my 38 years who claims that you don’t get into Heaven by the mercy of God.

You only get in by the Blood of Jesus, His mercy was that He allowed Christ to be our atonement for Sin. The way you acknowledge that is accepting Him, if you don’t believe He is real, He could never have done that for you, and following His commandments, all of them, not just those deemed palatable.

@Hypocrisy_Central Umm… no. You can violate every one of the commandments, and twice on Sunday, and still get into heaven if you believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness. That’s the whole point of grace. There’s no “Go to jail free” card.

I don’t think there is any point in slinging verses back and forth any more. All of my beliefs about Christianity are currently and have always been that all humans sin and that divine grace is the ONLY way to enter the kingdom of heaven. There are NO extracurricular requirements.

Condemning all kinds of sins in the bible is very common. There are so many sins condemned that it would be impossible for anyone to avoid sinning no matter how hard they tried. Especially after Jesus decreed that simply daydreaming about committing a sin is just as bad as committing it. There is no way to avoid sinning, because humans are sinful by nature.

When I see individual sins picked out of the bible, it doesn’t do much for me. Sometimes I look to see if any scholars disagree with the standard interpretation of what the specific verse was supposed to mean.

Anything written by Paul come under scrutiny, because everything he wrote was part of a dialogue between himself and that specific church congregation. Each thing that Paul mentions in those letters come from him witnessing or being told about very specific problems that church was struggling with at that specific time. Because of other non biblical historical records, we can easily piece together exactly what specific issue Paul was addressing when he wrote just about any verse in any of his letters. Most of the verses you picked were written by Paul, and most of the people who don’t consider these verses to be condemning homosexuality in general, believe this because they believe that Paul was addressing one specific kind of sexual act that that was causing trouble for many early churches (Christian men were paying for the service of pagan male temple prostitutes.) This is just one example of looking at a scripture a different way than most fundamentalists do.

Those sins listed are primarily for the church. It is the responsibility of the church to hold and enforce the “rule book” of their congregation. If they see a member committing a specific sin, it is their responsibility to point it out. The church should not condone any of these activities (which is why I fully support a church refusing to perform a same sex wedding ceremony) they should not allow people who blatantly flaunt that they commit these sins into leadership positions (which is why I support churches that do not allow gay or lesbian clergy) the church completely lacks the ability to say with authority that someone is not a Christian. They DO have the authority to point out that someone is not behaving like a Christian. But the knowledge of someone’s salvation status is a private matter between that person and God.

For the individual, the condemnation of specific sins listed in the New Testament, I see them as a litmus test. If you are truly repentant of your sins, you will try not to commit very many. If you are committing more than a few of those sons on a regular basis, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your commitment to Christ and your belief in his divine grace.

But each of these individual sins alone are not enough to have your eternal promise from God broken. That is unbreakable. Once you believe in God’s divine grace and ask for that grace, you are eternally part of the fold until you specifically reject that grace by stating that you no longer believe in the divine promise.

Long story short: I believe divine grace trumps EVERYTHING—including other verses in the Bible. It doesn’t mean that the other verses are false. It DOES mean that they CANNOT be interpreted in a way that would nullify God’s eternal grace.

When you say that someone cannot go to heaven because they commit a certain sin, you are claiming that God’s divine Grace is limited and insufficient in some way.To me, that is a great sin. You’re not believing the ONLY thing you’re required to believe to receive eternal salvation. To me, that’s more serious than any of the specific sins pointed out in the bible.

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You have gone to great lengths to explain to me that you do not believe in the all-powerful and eternal Grace of God. You believe that there are limits and that some sins are not to be forgiven.

If we cannot agree on the totality of the Grace of God, than we shall never come to any agreement of any interpretation of any verse. Because I believe that everything revolves around grace and mercy, and you believe it all revolves around something else. It’s pointless to argue, because we don’t even have the same definition of what makes someone Christian.

Anyway, from now on, when you sling some verse, I will not address it. We have two totally different beliefs in what being Christian means. It’s not going to change. But for your sake, I hope I’m the one who is correct. Otherwise you’ll be among those who you claim will wake up to a nasty surprise in the lake of fire because you have accidentally broken a rule or refused to believe some action of yours was,in fact, a sin.

I work with Jesus and he won’t let me have any of his blood. Neither will my other co-workers Luis, or Fumiko, or Angelika. Also, I saw Jesus eating a BLT, just last week! WTF?

@dappled_leaves Umm… no. You can violate every one of the commandments, and twice on Sunday, and still get into heaven if you believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness.
I think you better confer with some of these salad bar saints and Fluther Bible experts on what the Lord said about that, if they had not Magic Marker those scriptures from their version of the Bible.

@keobooks There are so many sins condemned that it would be impossible for anyone to avoid sinning no matter how hard they tried. Especially after Jesus decreed that simply daydreaming about committing a sin is just as bad as committing it. There is no way to avoid sinning, because humans are sinful by nature.
For someone who can get the fish in the net and pull it to the side of the boat, it is a shame you can’t get it on deck. You are mostly correct, no one can avoid sin, if that were the case, we would not have needed Christ to pay for our sins that we have grace and mercy, but it only kicks in when we except Him who paid for it and live our lives striving with all our heart, mind and strength to form ourselves into the mirror image of Christ.

But the knowledge of someone’s salvation status is a private matter between that person and God.
It is but God did not leave man without a guide, or any means to tell if he was on the right track or not. You know the Bible, if you know it that well, you know the method and means God provide, if you do not, get off the milk and on to the meat of the word.

If you are truly repentant of your sins, you will try not to commit very many. If you are committing more than a few of those sons on a regular basis, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your commitment to Christ and your belief in his divine grace.
Another important nugget, you ought to be telling your fellow Flutheroinians who glaze that over because I told them. One of the major keys is a penitent heart. Just sinning and saying ”God I am sorry”, but your heart you are truly repentant of your sins, you will try not to commit very many. If you are committing more than a few of those sons on a regular basis, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your commitment to Christ and your belief in his divine grace. and soul has no intention to change, then it was not sincere and will not fool God. One living in same-sex relations with no intention to change their ways cannot be saved; their only hope is to ask for His strength to break that curse and abstain from doing it.

When you say that someone cannot go to heaven because they commit a certain sin, you are claiming that God’s divine Grace is limited and insufficient in some way.To me, that is a great sin.
You have gone to great lengths to explain to me that you do not believe in the all-powerful and eternal Grace of God. You believe that there are limits and that some sins are not to be forgiven.
Let me make it clear then, there is not sin the blood of Jesus cannot cover less two. It is not automatic, you have to do one thing to activated, except Christ so His blood can cover you, He is not going to force it on you because you have freewill. It is like having a check with half a million on it, if you never go to cash it, it will never do you any good. If you do not even believe Christ was real, or that He was God became man to redeem man, then how can belief in Him save you anymore than belief in Buddha, Confucius, Shiva, Jim Jones, or anyone else.

Anyway, from now on, when you sling some verse, I will not address it. We have two totally different beliefs in what being Christian means. It’s not going to change. But for your sake, I hope I’m the one who is correct.
Agreed, as I am clipping off pointing people to the Bible because they do not believe it so anything they come up with is pointless, unless they take it all, they can’t use any. There are many Christians, some even have removed Christ from the equation. That is why I am not a Christian, but I am a Believer because regardless what you want to call your group, if it doesn’t have Christ at the center, you just have a religion to do all the churchy stuff and look holy.

@Hypocrisy_Central—You’re too Christian to be called a Christian, so you use the term “Believer” to separate yourself from the rest of the herd. That is too hardcore for words. Maybe there will be a special secret SuperHeaven reserved for people as dedicated as you are to humbly serve the Lord!

^ You’re too Christian to be called a Christian, so you use the term “Believer” to separate yourself from the rest of the herd.
As it has been pointed out, no many ungodly people and weak half-way saints Websterdize what Christian means as to make it of no effect at all, taking God out of it, so rather than go off a misguided label of Webster, we say Believer because it is with the mind, soul, and spirit, not just in the mind….as Webster seem to think.

Wow.

Yeah @keobooks I gotta agree with ya on that as^^^^^^^well!

Of course he cares. a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.