Outcome of the Greece negotiations appears to keep the EU intact. Does anyone besides me feel that (a) this will end badly for Greece no matter what, and (b) Germany acted as a bully?

Germany is not acting as a bully, Greece renigned on a business ( between countries ) agreement. Greece is like, “i’ll take your 50 Billion Euros and never pay it back.”

The Greek vote last week sent a clear message that Greece would not be bullied by Germany.

Yet the Greeks saw the benefit of staying in the Eurozone, because it provides much more stability than going back to a new drachma.

After all the resistance to German terms, why would you consider the Greeks to have been bullied?

Greece borrowed money and didn’t pay it back.
They are lucky to get another loan under any terms.

The problem lies in defining “the end”. Germany is unhappy that the Greeks have been profligate at the expense of German taxpayers. There is also a growing suspicion that Europe is out to punish and eliminate Greece’s socialist government. But the bottom line is that of all the nations on earth you would think the Germans aware of the possible consequences in driving a nation to the wall.

I think Germany (and most of YOU apparently) has a really short memory. Germany had debts after the war and both Spain and Greece forgave HALF. That would go a hell of a way to help.

@stanleybmanly If that was the case, Germany would have to punish Sweden too. Being ‘socialist’ is not the fucking problem.

@cazzie then what do YOU think is Germany’s motivation in squeezing the Greeks?

They are trying to keep the value of the Euro as high as they can. Very simple.

Every time they let in a small, weaker country, Germany takes a hit. Malta, Lithuania…. it all hurt the top feeders and benefiting the little guys at the bottom. That is how the Euro works and don’t confuse it with joining the EU because they are two separate issues. Norway is part of Schengen, but they don’t use the Euro and they aren’t really, completely part of the EU because, financially, they would take too big a hit. Water and economies, ... they find their own level, if you get what I mean. Germany is on top of the Euro/EU pyramid. Too much clay at the base of that pyramid and the whole thing collapses. Poor banking practices (getting sucked into some of the US banking products that promised so much but returned nothing but heartache fucked them over) is what ultimately messed up Greece. What the EU is talking about now is tightening regulations for banking and that is tightening the sphincters of many international banking firms, like HSBC. It will be the banks that decide…. and it will be behind closed doors. No one may ever know.

Greece will end up in the dumps further down the line. Do not be so ready to point fingers at Greece only. The poor man in the street will pay dearly for all this as he has been all along. The simple people carry the load while the rich( and there are many ) manage to get away with murder! I was hoping for even stronger resistance by the Greek government but there must be more to this than meets the eye.

Oh and the new government is “socialist” by title only, there is nothing socialist about them!

@ZEPHYRA gets the prize for being Captain Obvious. applauds other than the new government being socialist by title only. I think they are trying and going against the grain is a good start.

Oh… I should let you know, but by the by… we are all so linked economically, we can’t let anyone fail, so there will be some sort of help for Greece. There is no other way. But… as a long time Euro-Lover….. I have to say,... the return of such an ancient piece of currency like the revered Drachma…. well…. it is sort of a wish come true. Losing the Drachma in the first place was sad for us historians.

Greece could have decided they would not accept the 50 Billion. (That is 5,000 Euro per man, woman, and child in Greece.)
They took the money so they had to agree to the terms just like we do when we apply for a mortgage, or car loan, or payday loan from a shark.

@cazzie Thank you (sincerely) for the enlightenment. Has anyone seen this?

http://rt.com/business/273208-greece-goldman-debt-lawsuit/

It’s like giving a loan to an addict. Fat chance getting the money back. Greece missed it’s payment date and didn’t pay what I could instead it paid 0. That’s bargaining in bad faith. ~lucky that Greece doesn’t have student loans , or they would really be in trouble.

I studied macro economics, but it made me too sad to continue. It just added to my deep deep well of cynicism. I’m glad my dark, vague reflections on the subject could help a bit, @stanleybmanly, but I seriously try to no pay attention to this stuff anymore. It hurts my brain and my heart too much. Banks take advantage and other organisations that show up meaning to help, like The World Bank, are horrible.

@cazzie I can understand your cynicism, but I’m surprised that this stuff jerks you around emotionally. Are you Greek or in Greece now?

@stanleybmanly no, but I’m a member of the human race and have friends around the globe. My best friend, who is a social anthropologist who specialises in children’s studies in developing nations just moved back home to Indonesia because no one here in Europe really gives a shit.

Sounds about right!