What do you think about the various confederate flag arguments popping up?

It is analogous to tearing down statues of Hitler or Stalin. Makes sense to me to stop glorifying traitors to theUnion who founded their existence on the enslavement of others.

I think it’s a shame that it took the murder of nine innocent black people at the hands of a racist to finally bring to the forefront of national consciousness the conversation about relegating this symbol of bigotry to museums instead of being proudly flown over state capitols as if it represents something other than a code for racism still being alive and well in our country.

This should have been done a long time ago.

I’m not familiar enough with the details about some of the side issues mentioned to really have an opinion one way or another. Perhaps it is a bit over the top. That’s what invariably happens when the pendulum starts to swing vigorously to correct a situation that was too long dormant with little progress.

To me, there is nothing “charming” or “sentimental” about the confederate flag anymore than there is regarding the swastika.

Regardless of current sentiment, there will still be a portion of people who will continue to display the stars and bars on their cars, homes, and clothing (as is their right in a free society that even permits the Klan to hold marches, etc.)

But the key point is that it won’t be done in any way to imply sanction or approval by the Government (as in officially flying over State Capitol buildings.) It’s about time.

There have been “rallies” in my area – all the bigots get together and drive their pick-up trucks through black neighborhoods while flying the flag. But, no, of course it’s not a symbol of intimidation, racism, and hatred…......assholes.

@syz

How far South are you? Are you in what would be termed the “deep South”? Just curious.

There are a number of close friends of mine who live in Northern Virginia (Charlottesville) and others further North almost bordering DC and there doesn’t seem to be the same type of sentimental attachment to the Confederate flag as in other parts of the South.

But the other factor may be that my friends are in Academia (rather than NASCAR or something) and Charlottesville is a University town after all.

Flying the flag is provocative and there is no need for it, most homes in the South fly the Stars and Stripes anyway. But destroying historic statues is something else and I dont agree with it. Isn’t this the sort of thing Isis would do?

@Buttonstc Just to correct a few geographic points, Charlottesville isn’t really northern Virginia. Northern Virginia is more the Washington DC suburbs out to around Fredericksburg, not much further south than that. I live in Richmond, which is central Virginia; Charlottesville is central too though more in the Piedmont region. As far as Demographics in VA go, you’re right that Charlottesville is a very academic town, but it’s surrounded by deep red counties. Although VA is considered a swing state, it’s mostly the densely populated blue counties around DC and Virginia Beach/Norfolk that balance out the vast majority of the deep red of the rest of the state.

As far as Confederate flags go, You see a lot of them in the surrounding counties here in Richmond and in rural areas throughout the state (mostly taking the form of stickers on the rear windows/bumpers of pickup trucks). In Richmond we have a road called “Monument Avenue” that’s lined with giant statues honoring Confederates like Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. In 1996 they put a statue of Arthur Ashe on Monument Ave. and there was huge blowback from the large racist population here. We have roads and schools named after confederates.

I see the confederate flag as a piece of American History, nothing more, nothing less,
I guess I’m just not offended by inanimate objects.

Same as I thought last week. The flag is a symbol. Only.

To truly change its racist symbolism, you need to get the people who wish to wave the flag. Theyre the problem. Not the flag itself.

@cheebdragon: “I see the confederate flag as a piece of American History, nothing more, nothing less.
I guess I’m just not offended by inanimate objects.”

I don’t think you’re the target of these symbols, however. It might be difficult for you (and me) to truly understand what it means for those who are.

What if we were to apply the “only history” argument to Germany? I can’t imagine this argument would carry any weight. I could imagine Jews having some difficulty attending Himmler High School or living on Goebbels Lane or Hitler Ave. Dismissing their requests for a name change as being oversensitive might be missing the point.

@elbanditoroso: “To truly change its racist symbolism, you need to get the people who wish to wave the flag. Theyre the problem. Not the flag itself.”

Can it be it be both? Can we admit that we have a huge problem of racism in this country while at the same time removing the symbols of said racism from public taxpayer-funded buildings?

I understand peoples’ reluctance to attribute too much power to symbols. But I’m not sure the real resistance to removing the symbols is based on their position that these are mere symbols. I suspect that they would take issue with raising the ISIS flag above the capitol building. Even if we take the history argument – well, then let’s add a Senegal flag to fly above the capitol buildings. Many of the slaves involved in building the south and this country into what it is today were brought in chains from an area in Africa that is known today as Senegal. It’s just a symbol.

Last week I I was in a Missouri antique mall and a man walks up to me randomly and says, “I’m going to go out and buy a whole bunch of Confederate flags and cover my car with them.” WTF?

It was past time for the flags to be removed from public property. People ignore the fact that the Confederate flag was largely a symbol of Southern pride until the 1950’s when it was adopted by the people who opposed integration and civil rights. I heard a friend of mine in Missouri say last week, It wasn’t about the slaves.

Much of the support for the flag is based on ignorance and outright bigotry.

We can’t erase the past, and we can’t tear it down. Maybe the monuments now on public property could be moved to a museum? I particularly don’t have a problem with destroying the symbols and monuments erected in the 50’s and 60’s that are, in reality, open symbols of racism.

We can make some past history shameful. I remember reading a children’s book, maybe 2nd grade, on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, written from the child’s POV. It was powerful, and made the whole act shameful, which it was.
Not all history is good. None of it should be hidden, but there are ugly sides to it that shouldn’t be sugar coated.

Most of the Stone Mountain stuff was chiseled out in the 1920s. The whole entire point of the park is to be a confederate memorial. To deface the walls would pretty much destroy the whole purpose of the park. Unlike the courthouse, you can just choose not to go there if you don’t want to see it. I don’t think people should be digging up anyone’s graves either.

I am not at all a fan of the confederate flag. But I don’t think every single thing associated with the confederacy should be destroyed.

As usual we seem to drop into this ‘I am good, you are evil’ argument. Anyone that looks at the confederate flag as symbol of southern pride must be a racist or bigot and is doing so to promote slavery. Personally I have no ax to grind either way but I do wish we could discuss things without dropping into this good and evil mindset. Some of the European Monarchs were pretty damned brutal but they don’t feel obligated to remove any vestige of the past. People like Sherman were pretty damned brutal as well, yet we celebrate him. I find it interesting that collateral damage under Sherman was not just tolerated but encouraged. The post war period was also pretty damned brutal for the south. Carpet baggers decimated what was left.

That sort of brutality created an us vs them mentality and the confederate flag was a source of southern pride. The flag has been removed and I don’t have a problem with that. If some still feel there is some vestige of southern pride left, I don’t have a problem with that either. Taking the ‘Dukes of Hazard’ off TV, seems a bit over the top. I’ll miss Daisy Mae.

I am sure there are those who do view the flag as some sort of “Southern Pride” thing, and that’s all. But…pride in what?

Like @Dutchess_III, I’m curious – what does “southern pride” mean?

I asked the question, @DoNotKnow.

“Southern Pride” is a minefield, but I’ll touch the surface.

You have to understand that the South was a agrarian society that ran at a slow, genteel pace (as opposed to the big city hustle-bustle manufacturing of the North). Not all slave holders were monsters and not all slaves yearned to be free. “Good ole boy” wasn’t a pejorative, it was a way of life and the way things got done. People took care of their own, and of each other. People that ask why the Southern States refuse federal government assistance when they need it the most, just don’t get that. Proud people didn’t take handouts and if was often considered an insult to offer help if it wasn’t asked for.

My great uncle was the descendent of the largest slave holding family in a rural Missouri county. As far as I know nearly every black in the county worked on the farm up until manufacturing jobs became available in the 60–70’s. As far as I know, the blacks are all descended in some fashion from slaves owned by Uncle Jack’s ancestors. Apparently a sizable number of free slaves just stayed on. Aunt Jean fixed meals and sent them along to ‘the hands’ in times of trouble, and Uncle Jack (The local good-ole-boy) could be relied on to get a good worker out of nearly any kind of trouble. It was the Southern way of life, “Southern Pride”, and lasted well into my lifetime. I’m 54.

Stubborn self reliance and a strong sense of community play a large part.

@ibstubro: “Stubborn self reliance…”

That’s an odd use of the word “self” here.

But what is it about whatever it is that you are calling “southern” that makes it “southern” and not “American” or “small town“or “human”?

And why “pride”? When you refer to pride, what exactly do you mean?

However, I don’t think that most Southern Rednecks, flying the Confederate flag and bonziing around in their trucks have that same, tame view point @ibstubro.

I think it’s something to distract the general public from more important issues. Like TPP, for example.

The arguments discussions going on regarding the Confederate flag are long overdue, so thank you for asking this question.

The Confederate flag is a symbol selected by Southerners to represent their stance in the Civil War. That stance was pro-slavery, plain and simple.

Slavery is a subset of supremacy. At the time of the war, the Yankees also supported white supremacy. However, they wanted to abolish slavery for economic reasons that impacted the North.

Southern pride in its true sense has very little to do with the Civil War. It should never be represented by the Confederate flag. Here is an article that best describes what Southern pride is. Hopefully, it will provide a sense of what it is to those wondering.
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The situation regarding the removal of graves and a statue is taking place in downtown Memphis, TN, in a public park. It was a unanimous vote in favor by the Memphis city council. Apparently, they didn’t ask the citizens nor the family of the Confederate soldier and wife for their input before the vote. It gets even worse if you want to read the details.

@Pied_Pfeffer Your article reminded me that a long while back I was talking about the confederate flag (it might have been on Fluther) and I felt the south should come up with a different symbol. Something that represents why people who are southern love the south.

Although, as I think about it more now, I can’t help but realize that I think more in terms of states. I live wearing my Lakeland, TN t-shirt, but I never felt that way when I lived in Raleigh, NC. I say in from the northeast, but really I feel more like I am from NY and the DC suburbs. If there was a flag for the northeast I wouldn’t be inclined to wear it on my clothing. Or, have it displayed in a public way. I don’t want a symbol like that at all. As much as I generalize about different regions in our country, I really don’t want something so formal as a symbol that separates us. I think more in terms if being American, way before state or region identification.

I don’t feel southerners of today should feel shame about the past. This is America, and the sins of the fathers are not to be cast upon the sons. We certainly can do whatever we can to right past wrongs, but we don’t have to feel guilt about it. I would never expect a 25 year old German man, who is the great grandson of a Nazi genocidal antisemitic maniac, to feel guilt about his great grandfather. All I care about is that he himself is not hateful.

Funny about the number 42. That’s a number I have always liked.

I was doing some reading on slavery and it seems there were a huge number of Irish people enslaved in Europe. A black slave was very exotic and commanded a huge premium. I’ve not seen much in the way of uprising by my Irish friends regarding their enslavement. Even in the United States, it appears much of the hysteria is being perpetuated by a vocal few. As a nation of immigrants, there are many many people who had nothing to do with the practice here yet are either yelling or getting yelled at. As an immigrant myself, I am a bit upset about my people being placed in internment camps and their property stolen from them.
Bottom line is Pre-industrial age, human labor did the work of tractors and machinery. It was done in, what at the time, was the most economical way. It is a fact that there were black slave owners who bred and sold slaves making their fortunes in the south. We don’t do it any more, let’s find something else to beat into the ground.

I suggest that Southerners wanting to show their Southern pride should look for some other symbol. The Confederate flag was the symbol of a rebellion against the United States in order to preserve slavery. I do not see this as anything to be proud of.

A lot of Southerners are still in the mode of state vs federal government, and they tend to not like the fed. They want more power to be in the states.

I started to really get in tune with the dislike for the federal government when one day I was at my gym in TN in the locker room and two women were complaining about government and I said, “it’s kind of funny for us to be sitting here in a government subsidized gym and be complaining about government.” Their response was, “but the gym is local government.” That was the first time I ever thought in terms of local vs federal in that way. I found it ironic since Memphis government seemed to have so much corruption and Memphis was minutes away.

I really sometimes felt like the south still wanted to be the confederate states. Not to reinstate slavery, or any type if race related policy, but just because of their loathing of the federal government, taxation, and even decision by the Supreme Court.

I think that’s a great and very astute observation, @JLeslie.

I said above:
“People took care of their own, and of each other. People that ask why the Southern States refuse federal government assistance when they need it the most, just don’t get that. Proud people didn’t take handouts and if was often considered an insult to offer help if it wasn’t asked for.”
It’s part of the code of the south that you don’t mess with another man’s affairs, unbidden. Even offers of food or castoff clothes are easily interpreted as an implication that you’re not willing or able to take care of you and yours.
The Southern states view federal money much as the federal government does…as future leverage to bend the state government to the federal will. You won’t accept a 55 MPH federal highway speed limit? We’ll cut off your federal highway funds. Pretty soon you owe your soul to the company store.

It seems to me that the Founding Fathers and the original documents that formed The United States are closer to the Southern model than the Northern one.

United: made into or caused to act as a single entity.
Confederated: united in a league, alliance, or conspiracy

Lincoln was pro-Union at all costs, and he was right, in hindsight. The two countries could have never co-existed on the North American continent during the West Coast expansion.

@JLeslie If that is the only example you can provide for Southerners’ distaste for the federal government, then I question the perspective. That is a one-off locker room conversation between two people that you partially overheard. Did you join in the conversation or walk away with an impression based upon what was overheard?

@Pied_Pfeffer That was just the first incident that brought me more in tune with the idea that when southerners say they hate government they are primarily talking about the federal government. That’s how I interpreted anyway, and I don’t mean they are never happy with the fed or always happy with local government, I don’t think it’s that black and white.

See, even before that conversation at BRC (which was brief and we moved on to other topics, we were all very friendly really, it was after a water aerobics class together) I was always frustrated that the religious right seemingly hated government, but then looked to laws to spite federal law. It’s not really just the South, it’s people all over the country, but living in the south gave me more information. Things like the Supreme Court ruling abortion is legal, and the states chip away at that by making waiting periods and mandatory parent notification and other laws. I just didn’t understand before that conversation that maybe it was understood among Southerners which government they were referring to during a conversation. Maybe I interpreted it wrong or over generalized.

@ibstubro I understood your point about pride in taking care of something themselves without federal help. I’ve been extremely critical of the Gov. of LA for not asking for Federal help after Katrina. Even Pres. Bush says now that he should have ignored the laws and gone in to help sooner. I remember after Katrina I was having a conversation with someone I didn’t know well and they said up north people take care of things on their own, but after Katrina people just stood around waiting for the government. I don’t agree with that statement by the way. He went on, and basically was implying the black people were just waiting around I think? It just seemed to turn racist to me. I could have interpreted it incorrectly.

I remember walking through the Civil Rights museum in Memphis and reading some of the arguments of the time in favor of segregation and reading again about the Little Rock Nine and how the fed went in to enforce the law when the Governor was helping to keep those children out.

For me, I think the balance of state’s rights and federal laws are important, but I feel the law of the land, of the United States of America, trumps state laws.

@DoNotKnow The holocaust was a lot more recent than the civil war and no one was committing mass genocide on their slaves, so that’s not really a great comparison.

@cheebdragon From what I understand the confederate flag first went up over the SC statehouse in the 60’s as a symbol to demonstrate SC was pissed at the fed about desegregation. That SC wanted to hold into keeping black people separate. That’s pretty recent. The confederate flag is consistently used by racist groups. So, even though there are people who are not racist who have an affinity for the flag one way or another, they are still aligning themselves symbolically with the hateful people.

Not to mention the flag was created to represent the Confederacy, or Confederate States. Not of the south within the United States. It is a flag fighting against the Union. Are the southerners who fly it proud to be citizens if the United States of America? It reminds me when Elian Gonzalez was being fought over and Cubans were arching, sometimes rioting, in the streets of Miami. They wanted the Clinton administration to keep the boy in our country. During these demonstrations there were some Cubans parading around with their Cuban flags. WTH? They want our President to keep the boy in America and they are flying the Cuban flag? What sense does that make? I really wish a Cuban could explain that to me.

I was pretty neutral until I saw the rally in SC to keep the flag up. It was a whole bunch of KKK and other white supremacist groups. I saw no non racist groups supporting the flag. It kind of made up my mind for me.

@JLeslie The flag went up 1961 on the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War, officially, It had nothing to do with protesting desegregation.

Removing the flag is going to accomplish what exactly? If anyone wants to put a small dent into ending racism, they are going to have to change our entire prison system.

I think digging up graves is terrible for any reason.

@cheebdragon , Symbols make a difference. Removing the flag from government buildings, in particular, will have an impact. The hatred that we all know is symbolized by the flag no longer has a state imprimatur.

@cheebdragon What I read was the flag was put up because SC wanted to keep things segregated, but let’s say your right and it was because it was the 100th anniversary. Why does that make it better?

Taking down the flag means there is one less government building in America flying a flag that represents wanting to maintain slavery and break up the union. Why do you think it makes sense to have that flag flying high at the state capitol building?