Why would an exclusive, invitation-only country-club break standards?

Maybe the gentleman is an upstanding citizen and enjoys golf. What would his race have to do with it? Do you know him personally? How do you know he has nothing in common with you or any of the other members? He could make twice your income and be descendant from royalty.
Are you here saying crazy things just to bait people into an argument?

What would his race have to do with it?

Standards for invitation.

Do you know him personally?

No.

How do you know he has nothing in common with you or any of the other members?

Some of us met him on the golf course today. We gave him a small interview through a casual chat. That is when we knew. The only thing he has in common with us is affluence.

This happens to be the first question you ask on Fluther? Nah, I smell a troll.

Sounds like you have an interest in golf in common.

What question was I suppose to start with? I don’t see an introduction guideline anywhere. Only standards.

This is actually a unique styled website and I have been fond of some of the user’s responses. I’m not sure why you would think I’m a troll. Are you hostile to all newcomers?

Love of golf seems to be your commonality.

So for “decades there has never been a minority in this club”....what caused the club to stop admitting minorities decades ago? You might find your answer by going back to the root of this change in admission standards.

Sounds like you have an interest in golf in common.

Love of golf seems to be your commonality.

Indeed, but this commonality is only one component. The country club is as much of a social club as it is a recreational one. We don’t pay membership to just play golf. That is why admissions are discriminatory in nature. The social aspect. The amenities.

Cruiser, I don’t think they ever started since its creation. Think of women’s-only clubs. Or Harvard alumni-only. I could never get in. Those are their standards.

Aren’t the members owners of the club? Don’t you have a membership committee? That is how most upscale country clubs work. Why don;t you ask the chair of the membership committee?

And I am curious, do you admit women? Or Asians? Any chance the competition committee is trying to get a PGA or LPGA event at the club?

Folks, don’t take the bait. Just flag it.

Aren’t the members owners of the club?

Only the founders. Members get the perks.

Don’t you have a membership committee?

We do.

Why don;t you ask the chair of the membership committee?

This just happened. I plan to. Just curious for an outside perspective.

And I am curious, do you admit women?

We do.

Or Asians?

I have never seen any.

Any chance the competition committee is trying to get a PGA or LPGA event at the club?

No.

I’m waiting for the fat lady to sing.

Standards are used by the high mucky-mucks to keep out those who they deem undesirable.

Isn’t that the point of any club? A women’s-only club is a standard that keeps all men out. That is what they find undesirable.

You never answered when I asked why the color of his skin mattered? I have green eyes. I’m in the minority. It shouldn’t make a difference in where I should be allowed to play golf.

The “standard” is “everyone is or should be white?” Is that an assumed standard or is it in writing?

Dear Jellies, we have a troll. Right now, this person is sitting back and laughing at the reactions to his/her absurd posting. Please don’t take the bait. Flag the question, let the moderators remove it, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Maybe the club’s owners finally decided it was time to drag ass out of the 1800s. If you don’t like it you are free to find another exclusive club that’s more to your liking.

Money
Private golf clubs these days are struggling to keep, much less increase, membership.
Anybody with surplus in the checking account is a potential initiation fee/dues payer.

Black or white.

@Love_my_doggie
Why remove it?
Ignore it if you choose.
Be critical if you choose.
Respond in some fashion if you choose.
But why remove it?
Is that the cure for what bothers you?
As in ” I don’t like it. It offends my fragile sensibilities. Ban it!”?

I still think it’s the money.

Generally clubs of this nature require that a memeber or some number of members sponsor new members. Maybe one or more of the current members don’t share your discriminatory view on this. Also as @josie mentioned money is tight and new members bring new money. There may be corporate sponsers that are applying pressure as well. Possibly a loan is needed and relaxing the discriminatory activities will open the door to better lending terms. There is the possibility that vendors may also be bringing pressure. May some part of the course in being leased rather than owned. That has forced a number of private clubs to open their memberships to a broader range of applicants. The possibilities are endless and it is unlikely that anyone here could answer your question with the scant details you’ve provided.

@Judi, I didn’t answer you because it is off-topic. What is relevant to know is the standards are what they’re and that they were broken. Why?

@jca, Some standards are in the bylaws, others are unwritten rules. Alumini is in the bylaws. Ethnicity is not. Think of it like the Congressional Black Caucus, but for whites. Instead of black members, it is white members and instead of congress, it is a country club. The bylaws do not make race a prerequisite for membership, but there has never been non-white members who ever joined.

@Darth_Algar, Possibly, but based on the dialogues I have had, there was no indicative shift in mode of thinking for me to anticipate a change in standards. This was fairly abrupt.

@josie, It is not the money. You’re correct that golf membership has declined, but it is mainly because of lifestyle changes and those still struggling to recover from the recession. Other areas, including my own, have gone unscathed or bounced back. Membership is on the rise.

Interesting point, the gentlemen’s club in the city that I am a member of has golf simulators. Not quite the same as the real deal, but a nice addition nevertheless.

Also, aside from the amenities and love of the game, if the standards is what was appealing to members, wouldn’t breaking the standards be counter-productive? For every unwanted member who is accepted, one or many white members will leave because the club loses its appeal. The club either breaks even or risk losing more.

@Jaxk, Thanks. Your answer opened up the possibilities. Two sponsors are required for new members, but there are bylaws and unwritten rules. Members cannot just sponsor whoever they want.

If the rules aren’t written they’re not rules.

Some members may be opposed to new members of different nationalities and colors, other members may welcome it. Because there have been no black members before does not mean that change will not and should not happen.

Did you bring up your questions and concerns with the Director of Membership?

If the rules aren’t written they’re not rules.

Some members may be opposed to new members of different nationalities and colors, other members may welcome it

These are moot points. Ethnicity is only one component. What is unwritten or what members feel about various ethnicities is irrelevant because there are other standards in the bylaws. Some are in the details of my question: culture, alumni, industrial status, and affluence. He doesn’t meet any of the other required standards. There was no social connection with him and a greater level of distrust. That is exactly why these standards are in place.

Because there have been no black members before does not mean that change will not and should not happen

It doesn’t mean change will and should happen either.

Did you bring up your questions and concerns with the Director of Membership?

Unfortunately, I won’t be there till next weekend.

I look forward to hearing about your discourse with him. (I sad “him” because it’s pretty obvious a club of such exclusivity wouldn’t want women in decision making roles if at all)

“What other reason could there be” you ask.

Perhaps there are people in your club that have moved on out of the stone age and recognize that black people are also “like-minded, have graduated from the same schools as you, have certain status, affluence, culture, etc”

I sad “him” because it’s pretty obvious a club of such exclusivity wouldn’t want women in decision making roles if at all

Indeed. Women were not allowed in the club until recently. It was a place to get away from the wife and kids for a little while and to conduct business.

Cruiser, I wouldn’t be aggressively suspective if I was under the impression that he was just like us. It certainly is a possibility that some members feel this way, but this person does not fit in with our bylaws. He might be cultured, but he doesn’t identify with our culture. He might be an alumni, but he is not an alumni from our university. He is affluent, but lacks status. I know members of the Harvard Club, but I can never get in there unless I went to Harvard. These peculiar, discriminatory standards are what appeal to the members.

@Jackiavelli: This sounds like a dilemma that can best be brought up with the person in charge of membership. Please update us on what he says and if it’s satisfactory to you.

@Jackiavelli

I’m sorry this has happened to you. It must be painful and traumatic.

@Jackiavelli Maybe you can suggest to the membership committee to vote on getting a bigger burning cross out at the entrance to the club.

Jca, Will do.

Darth_Algar, It is in its own way.

Cruiser, why would I do that? I’m not a racist Klansman. Are you racist?

No..@Jackiavelli I am not racist and you may not be a Klansman but IMO your words “token black man” and other comments here suggest you are indeed racist, prejudiced and plain old troll. Plus I am not buying into your story that you are really a member of this “country club” because this would be the last place you would find a member of an “elite, affluent, like minded all white male” club discussing such an issue in a public forum full of people who could not possibly relate to your alleged haute status in life. A true member of such an elite cut from the same cloth country club would exercise much more discretion than you have here.

Ah. You’re part of the flag and remove the troll crowd. I think now I understand why fluther isn’t popular. It is a shame. Quite a unique website.

Your response indicates you don’t know the correct meaning of racism or the distinction between preference and prejudice. I advice you to explore these terms before take on such bold opinions.

I’m not looking for elites or people who can relate to me. I’m looking for people who can brainstorm. Isn’t this a Q&A site? Are you suggesting the members here are brain-dead because they’re not elites and can’t relate? You’re belittling your own fluther members. Some members here gave some good answers.

@Jackiavelli Please save the advice or at the very least take your own advice on exploring your own bold opinions. I can relate to your experience of why you might feel unwelcomed and this site more than earning the reputation of cliquish and “unfriendly” and why so many have came and went. I had that same experience 6 years ago and continues almost on a weekly basis. I have strong and usually informed opinions but will usually admit when I am wrong.

I think I was more than fair with you in my earlier comments…I simply began to see the man behind the curtain with the direction of your comments. Admittedly you have made a concerted effort with careful wording of your comments and replies but you were the one who changed the direction of how I felt with your “bold comments”. Yes IMO you were treated with reservation from the collective I don’t usually see here. But you cannot back me into a corner now with your snarky comments…and I particularly take umbrage with very closed minded people I see you to be. BTW if you are going to advice me at least spell it correctly…apparently good spelling is not a requisite to your exclusive country club.

I don’t take issue with how you feel about me. It is the ignorance and misguidedness behind the opinion that I find troubling. It tells more about the intelligence of the accuser than the “sins” of the accused.

BTW if you are going to advice me at least spell it correctly…apparently good spelling is not a requisite to your exclusive country club.

This doesn’t help matters as it indicates childishness.

But you cannot back me into a corner now with your snarky comments…and I particularly take umbrage with very closed minded people I see you to be.

This is irony.

you are indeed racist, prejudiced and plain old troll.

This too.

@Jackiavelli: You have to realize, you’re a brand new person on this site and you are expressing views that are considered antiquated in the majority of the country. I know you have stated that your doubt of the black country club member is not due to the color of his skin, but due to the lack of attributes that you feel he has, but it doesn’t sound like you really know much about him. If the country club is as exclusive as you say, the person who is in charge of membership would have vetted any new member in a significant fashion, or else he would be out of a job himself. Furthermore, you describe the “zero tolerance for blacks” as a “Rule.” As @Judi says, if it’s not in writing, it’s not a rule.

People on here are doubtful of you and your intentions because of the views you express and the way you express them.

If I or @Judi or @Cruiser or any of us above expressed the same views in the same way, we’d be ripped apart, believe me. However, the Collective knows us and would probably also say they’re surprised we hold such views. You come on, brand new and talk in a somewhat incendiary and shocking fashion, so what do you think people will wonder? That maybe you came on here solely to stir the shit.

@Jackiavelli You ‘say” you don’t take issue with how I feel about you but in the same breath you say…“You’re part of the flag and remove the troll crowd, It is the ignorance and misguidedness behind the opinion that I find troubling. It tells more about the intelligence of the accuser than the “sins” of the accused.” Those are words of someone who indeed takes issue with someone (me) perhaps anyone here or anywhere taking issue with your narrow minded opinions that amount to no more than IMO trollish yank my chain circle jerk opinions.

If you are as dedicated to soliciting people who can brainstorm with, you are more than welcome as this tide pool is chock full of the people you seek, but you are off to a rocky start….just do so with respect for our unwritten rules for admission here.~

@Jackiavelli “It is in its own way.”

That’s too bad. Maybe your doctor can prescribe something to help you cope.

“I’m not looking for elites or people who can relate to me. I’m looking for people who can brainstorm. Isn’t this a Q&A site?”

Brainstorm what exactly? We’re not members of your club, we don’t have any particular insights into its internal workings or any influence with its directors. All we can do is speculate. We can’t help your plight, even if we were inclined. We don’t share your antiquated, elitist views, and they way you’ve presented your case hasn’t done much to elicit sympathy from us. Not really sure what you expect to gain from this here.

Maybe it would be helpful if you listed some of this unwritten rules.
1. Must be of Western European decent?
2. Must be at least 3rd generation in the top 10% income?
3. Must be local for 2–3 generations?
4. Must have a CCW?
I think that’s where our confusion is. What are the things that you find deficit in him aside from the color of his skin?

@jca the person who is in charge of membership would have vetted any new member in a significant fashion,

The issue I have is whether he was sponsored or vetted by the committee at all. I’m skeptical based on what he has told me about himself. I didn’t have time to investigate.

Furthermore, you describe the zero tolerance for blacks as a Rule. As Judi says, if it’s not in writing, it’s not a rule.

Yes, but I already pointed out this is a moot point as there are more standards than just ethnicity.

@Cruiser “Those are words of someone who indeed takes issue with someone”

Here, again, you display ignorance and misguidedness. In the quote you refer to, I was stating that I find your methodology troubling, not your emotional conclusion. You don’t know the distinction between logic and emotion.

with your narrow minded opinions that amount to no more than IMO trollish yank my chain circle jerk opinions.

Irony.

@Judi

The only unwritten rule is ethnicity.
Affluence is in the written bylaws.
Proximity is not in the bylaws.
CCW isn’t either.

I touched upon some of the other written bylaws.
1. Alumni. He is not from our alumni.
2. Culture. He does not share our culture.
3. Industrial status. He does not have an industrial status.

Culture is concise. The word incorporates painting, sculptures, music, architecture, literature, performing arts, film, science, philosophy, religion, cuisine, clothing, etc. He does not share our tastes, views, and leanings.

@Jackiavelli: Have you discussed with the person in charge of membership yet? We can only speculate, but that person can give you some real answers.

Not yet. I will be there on Columbus day.

@Jackiavelli Ummm…YOU are the one who is “Here, again, you display ignorance and misguidedness.” I merely pointed out the arrogance and narrow mindedness of your question and subsequent opinions and rationale for your comments here. I even went so far as to call you out as racist and trollish of which there is ample evidence above here. I simply challenged your statements and reasoning and you didn’t like being called out by someone who is not falling for your BS here. YOU and your ilk are exactly the reason I would never join an exclusive country club.

Reiterating previous answers does not reaffirm or strengthen them.

YOU and your ilk are exactly the reason I would never join an exclusive country club.

Watch me not care.

So everyone in your club is an alum from the same school? I am not clear on that statement.
Can you give us some specific examples of interests that are not aligned with the rest of the members?
If I am to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your motivations are not racesist the only vision I can conjur up is that he must be obnoxious like Rodney Dangerfield in Caddy Shack?

So everyone in your club is an alum from the same school?

Yes. We’re graduates from “XYZ University”. We’re XYZ Alumni. Only members of “XYZ” are allowed in the club. This man is “ABC state college”.

Can you give us some specific examples of interests that are not aligned with the rest of the members?

Religion – He is a Christian. We’re atheists.
Philosophy – We balance scientism and art. He is an idealist/constructivist.
Music – We like classical music. He likes jazz.

If I am to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your motivations are not racesist

You’re discourteous whether you do or don’t because all you have done thus far was derail my question from why standards break to you questioning whether the standards were actually broken and whether I am a hatemonger/troll. That goes for you too, Jca.

I can conjur up is that he must be obnoxious like Rodney Dangerfield in Caddy Shack?

This new member’s diversity sullies the club. Aside from the clubs recreational and business value, we’re there because we prefer to be left alone with our own kind and to preserve that culture.

The only members here that were actually courteous and helpful were Jaxk and Josie. Observing some of the other questions on this site, I see they’re the minority.

Thanks guys.

@Jackiavelli Yeah, well, maybe you don’t meet our standards. Don’t like it when someone else does it to you, maybe you shouldn’t do it to someone else – especially because you said his skin color did have something to do with it. Most of the people on this site don’t tolerate racism.

False comparison. I don’t consider my speculative opinion of him being a token black man to be discourteous or racist.

Most of the people on this site don’t tolerate racism.

Just like Cruiser, your response indicates you don’t know the correct meaning of racism or the distinction between preference and prejudice.

Out of curiosity, are all women-only clubs sexist?
Is the Congressional Black Caucus racist?

The first thing that you have said that appears valid is the fact that this club is a group of alumni from a specific school. If that’s in the bylaws it is strange to me that he was admitted.
Any Country Club I’ve ever been a member of required a sponsor and the approval of the Membership Committee.
That will probably be where you will get your answers, not from some website full of random people.

@Jackiavelli And if he was from your school and fit all of the other requirements to satisfy your criteria, but was still black? Would it still bother you that he was in the club? Having a “preference” for skin color just sounds like a “nice” way of saying you’re racist.

I prefer savory food to sweet food. I prefer crisp autumn days to hot summer days. “I prefer white people to black people”? It doesn’t work the same way.

@Judi Any Country Club I’ve ever been a member of required a sponsor and the approval of the Membership Committee

I covered this 5 days ago in my response to Jaxk.

That will probably be where you will get your answers, not from some website full of random people.

Thank you. I’m aware of that. I asked this question because I wasn’t going to be back at the club until a week later. I had my own speculations which I shared in the details of the question. The more the merrier.

@DrasticDreamer “I prefer white people to black people”? It doesn’t work the same way.

Sure it does. I’ll give you a good explanation. I want my children to be white. I want my children to look like their grandparents, and I also want them to be like them, too. Many traits are under at least partial genetic control. Myself and my forebears have been white for a thousand years. For me to father children who were not white would be strange. This is a natural affection. Race is a kind of extended family, both biologically and culturally. Since I am of european descent, I have a natural preference for my own kind.

Would it still bother you that he was in the club?

See above.

Having a “preference” for skin color just sounds like a “nice” way of saying you’re racist.

Calling me a racist is calling me a name, and when you reduce conversations to name-calling, that is the most inept way of admitting you’ve no argument or lost it.

@Jackiavelli Your examples don’t even make sense. Wanting children that look like you – even though I personally don’t get it – is at least somewhat understandable. But it is in no way comparable to saying that you don’t want a black man in the same club as you even if he met every other qualification. As for traits being partially genetic, yes, but only physical traits. Beyond that, it doesn’t hold water scientifically. There are zero differences in the brain.

And no, calling you racist is not name-calling. Because it’s a real thing and you absolutely show characteristics of being that way. If you don’t like being called racist, then don’t be racist.

Wanting children that look like you – even though I personally don’t get it

I’m not surprised. Perhaps you will get it from a different approach. Go read some studies that find a slew of problems with mixed-race children/adolescents. Maybe you’ll get some of it then.

But it is in no way comparable to saying that you don’t want a black man in the same club as you even if he met every other qualification.

It is comparable when you start to understand that it is instinctive.

As for traits being partially genetic, yes, but only physical traits. Beyond that, it doesn’t hold water scientifically. There are zero differences in the brain.

No, not just physical traits. Brain sizes are different. IQ is different and no, it isn’t because of cultural or language barriers. They moved passed that by making IQ tests based on finding patterns and reiterating a sequence of reversed numbers. Testosterone levels are different. I would make an effort to prove you wrong, but I am not going to because I already know how this is going to end. You’re going to get uncomfortable with the truth and call me a racist, again.

I will take your responses more seriously when you start evolving them passed the vague fragments of you absolutely show characteristics of being that way and Your examples don’t even make sense or don’t be racist.

Woah.

@DrasticDreamer

You still didn’t answer my questions.

Out of curiosity, are all women-only clubs sexist?
Is the Congressional Black Caucus racist?

I say let’s hold off on any more speculation until @Jackiavelli discusses this issue with the powers that be on the Membership Committee.

@Jackiavelli: We eagerly await your update as to what they have to say.

I’ve googled it and I can’t find a definition for “Industrial Status.” I’ve found references to it, but no place where it’s defined. Instead of me guessing by inference, can someone provide me with a definition?

Ok. I found out what happened. One of JaxK’s opinions was correct. The reason this man was let in the club was because of lending terms for expansion. The new member was not sponsored by any of the current members and the committee never vetted him. This was a decision made by the founders.

Technology is more sophisticated these days. They sifted through mountains of data, including social media, and determined that the data coupled with a homogenous club is a potential liability. They make the implication of an existing link between social attitudes and stability/productivity. Accordingly, regardless of the written bylaws, the new member is there as a symbol of diversity to satisfy lending terms.

@Judi Industrial status is one’s market power/influence.

It should be no surprise that in a club such as yours, Money has a powerful voice.

Indeed. I just didn’t think it was more powerful than principles. At least not here. I guess that was my naivety.

@Jackiavelli Clearly it’s not instinctual, because I don’t feel the same way at all. I wouldn’t care if my kid was all white or mixed with something else. “Brain sizes are different, IQ is different and no, it isn’t because of cultural or language barriers.”. Lol. Okay, bud, you go ahead and find the science that backs up those claims. Good luck with that, by the way, because it doesn’t exist.

You are, indeed, racist. But I know, you’re so shocked that I’m saying this. I have a good idea: if you want to join a club that fits your standards, why don’t you just join the Aryan Brotherhood? I’m sure a lot of them hold the same beliefs as you.

I’m hearing that the token black is not the most qualified token black.

@DrasticDreamer, Your disregard, wit, caliber, and quality arguments are just too overwhelming.

If anyone needs me, I will be loathing in a tub filled with my own guilt tears. So sorry.

@Jackiavelli You think I’m attempting to argue? Amusing. Also: No one expects racist assholes to feel bad. Because, see, that’s one of the things that makes you guys assholes.

Truly done feeding the troll now.

That is disconcerting. I better go check my white male privilege. So sorry!.

The fat lady is singing

Come on… ask another question and show us what you are really like.

@chyna I would be more interested in their answer to this

@chyna I like freedom of association. I also like the silliness in this latest news article link

Quote Snip: It became glaringly obvious that I was getting far fewer matches and messages while online dating than my non-black friends. show just how deeply ingrained racism is in our society.

She receives fewer matches, so she concludes that whites who date other whites are not doing it because of preference, but because of racism. Preference v.s Prejudice. Sounds familiar?

My previous answer – I have a natural preference for my own kind

@DrasticDreamer‘s response – You are, indeed, racist.

Freedom of association indeed. Perhaps we do not want to associate with you.

That much is certain. Forgive me if I interpret your reply as a self-hatred for whites or racism if you’re non-white. There cannot be any other explanation because I just want to be popular with the community at large by being a social justice warrior. It also makes me sound superior and the victor of all arguments without actually utilizing reason. You know, just like DrasticDreamer. So sorry!

You can interpret it however you wish, but truth be told, for myself, it’s simply because thus far I’ve found you annoying and I question the sincerity behind your postings here.

Only question from OP?

@Darth_Algar A reason other than racism? That is crazy talk.

@Tropical_Willie What else should I be asking?

Maybe I should ask how can Buddhists ever reach nirvana when wanting to obtain nirvana is itself a desire that must be abandoned?

What do you think? I’m worried I might be branded as anti-religion. Heaven forbid.

Sorry, dude. I did utilize reason. You’re the one who tried to claim that black people (and/or other minorities) actually have lower IQs, which is not something that science supports at all. It’s racist whether or not you want to believe it.

I also don’t give two shits about whether or not my opinions are popular with anyone. As much as you’d like to believe that’s why I feel the way I do (because you simply can’t fathom someone genuinely feeling the opposite way you do) is your problem – not mine.

I also have the feeling you might be a regular user. If that’s the cause and you’re hiding behind a different name, that’s pretty damn sad. It indicates that you’re too much of a coward to be comfortable with your own beliefs around people that you “know”.

If you’re not a regular user, then you’re definitely only a troll because you don’t ask or answer anything else, yet you still respond to updates in this thread, which indicates you actively visit the site just to keep an eye on it.

Either way, it’s crap.

Religion – He is a Christian. We’re atheists.
A private golf club of exclusively atheist, privileged, white men? White men with money who are exclusively atheist, belong to no church, sit around and talk about Dawkins and Darwin and Hutchinson all day, but feel so much more superior to a fellow human being with darker skin? Something feels amiss here.

Philosophy – We balance scientism and art.
The term ‘scientism’ is a prejorative term used by people of faith to belittle those who, in their eyes, put their faith wrongly, in science. It is not a term an educated, atheist scientific-minded person would use. Again, something is amiss.

Music – We like classical music. He likes jazz.
Wow…. if you fight over which radio station to listen to on the golf cart, I can imagine the chaos that might ensue. A sound reason to ban a person. ^sarcasm and pun intended

[Mod Says] Jackiavelli has left the building. Trolling.

@Jackiavelli was a troll imagine that ;>) !

A returning troll, in fact.

Me thinks there’s one now on the q about living in a small town.

Public accusations are unhelpful. Flags, on the other hand, are quite helpful. If it’s who I think it is, you can help me make my case to the team.

@SavoirFaire: I “contacted the mods” on Sunday eve (I think it was) but did not hear anything back.

It doesn’t appear to have gone through.