Are closed borders ethical?

It really depends on if the open arms are curing a humanitarian crisis or are just going to be taken advantage of. There is no good answer unfortunately. It has got to be handled on a case by case basis.

I agree. Having thousands of Syrians fleeing their wartorn homeland is a lot different than thousands of Americans moving to Canada because the election didn’t go their way. There is no “one answer covers all” yes/no on this one.

When a human stood on the moon and looked back at where he’d come from, he saw one planet. When he brought back a photograph that, for the first time ever, showed us our home planet from another celestial body, we should have begun negotiations then to erase our borders.

We are one species, homo sapiens. Let’s create a world where all humans can thrive.

Division is based on fear. Let’s reject fear. We can, if we want. It’s a choice we make every day.

Division has the advantage of checks and balances, we still need that. Imagine a tyrant in charge of the whole world, no thanks.

I think we’re capable of creating systems that will curtail abuse. I am not a fan of tyrants.

I’d prefer to have alternatives to run to. Besides, not everyone wants to live the same lifestyle as everyone else. Look at muslims and christians.

I can see the logic oflooking at it from the point of view of a taxpayer. If one is paying taxes and supporting multiple people who don’t work, at what point does that become impossible?

@ARE_you_kidding_me I can appreciate that desire. What I’m advocating is a complete reworking of our planet. I have no illusions it’s going to happen soon.

In my imagination, we could create systems that allow all people to thrive in the way the wish.

I am a little nervous when I hear that we want to protect our way of life from outsiders. This reminds me of state’s rights arguments from Southerners who want to continue racist policies that deny basics to people they dislike. I can see tyranny of the majority is possible, too.

It’s a delicate balancing act, but we are smart animals. I happen to believe we are capable of creating good systems that will work for us all.

Disneyland has its borders closed off. There are gates which open, allowing millions of visitors.
Closed borders does not mean closed country. It simply means to enter people have to be welcomed.
I don’t want people coming to my country from a war zone without knowing whether they really need a home, or are they someone searching for a new place to cause trouble.
It is naïve to think someone could open the front door of their home, and offer to feed homeless, hungry people, and only hungry people would enter, and none would leave with stuff which is not theirs.

I think a country belongs to it’s citizens that work hard, pay taxes to create the environment they work so hard to live in. Then it should be up to the same citizens to reach a consensus as to the level of benevolence that they are willing and capable of providing to outsiders. Why in the olden days there were moats and fortresses to protect their preferred way of living. America as an example was founded on fight for your right to live free or die free and many hundreds of thousands have willingly stepped up and given their life to ensure that model exists so it’s fellow citizens have that opportunity to live free. America has also willing opened it’s doors to allow immigrants to join our ranks provided they are willing to share in this ideal. Unfortunately so many interpret this as to mean to live here for free.

Where I take exception to this open door policy is what we are seeing in Germany as an example, where they are overwhelmed by the influx of Syrian refugees and to add insult to injury, the refugees are suing the government there for not giving them benefits fast enough.

@Hawaii_Jake I wish I had your faith. I can’t get past that 2–3% of the population are either psychopathic or sociopathic.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I am optimistic, but I have no earthly idea when we’ll get there.

Country is to House
as
Border is to Front Door

No. more later

This is a question that’s going to be ever more relevant as the world grows ever more crowded and knowledge of huge economic disparities between countries becomes more widely dispersed. It’s been forecast for decades that the migration of people from depressed regions of the world would be one of the primary disruptions of this century. Things are coming to a head. Our own situation should only remind us to brace ourselves for what’s ahead. I fear things will revert to the way it’s always been. This or that country belongs to whoever has the strength to take it or hold it.

When push comes to shove as it has in Hungary and Israel…a wall is a quick fix to an overwhelming and dangerous problem of immigrant influx that other countries are mulling as well as we speak. At least Trump is promising a tastefully decorated wall that would be the envy of other countries!~

As a socialist, I look at borders as necessary. While we need to have a reasonable immigration policy and a way for people who are already here to become citizens, borders are necessary when it comes to taxation and public services. That said, when it comes to a major crisis, such as a war with large amounts of refugees, it’s clear that all countries have a moral obligation to take them in – even if it means taking in more than standard immigration policies dictate.

My ancestors stole this land fair and square. It belongs to me and my kind and no one else.

@Darth_Algar Damn straight….Injuns should have built a bigger and prettier wall to keep us out.

Ask the American Indians how well uncontrolled immigration works. Maybe look at the Incas or the Aztecs. The people that get invaded by a uncontrolled immigration wither and die. What replaces them is nothing like the original civilization.

I believe this problem was something for others around the world, to look at the US, and all of the immigration situations on many of it’s borders, and shake their heads.
Now with crazy in control, and people are literally dying to get out of their hell, more nations are suddenly facing what they have only observed before. The US has been criticized in it’s handling of the challenges in the past, and it continues today.
It feels like the captain has sighted land – and everyone’s run to one side of the boat. What happens to the boat?
No one was original here in the US nor anywhere else, if technically speaking. Everyone is an immigrant, (don’t tell the DAR they’ll faint) and time periods are the only difference.
There will be other influxes of different people going to different places.
Those who are killing to make inhabitants flee, cannot hold land with a few, when the many split open the seams where stuffed.
Nothing is stable anywhere in anything, anymore.

Yes and no. I don’t believe it’s that easy of an answer. On one hand you want to save as many people as possible, on the other hand, you don’t want your nation over whelmed financially that it can disturb your economy. I think there needs to be a plan put in place where, nations that close their boarders need to contribute financially to offset the financial burden the host country may suffer. Have a plan in place to have businesses go to where the refugees are so they can quickly start to support themselves. Pay for builders to go to the host country and build homes and schools for them, using the refugees as most of their employees. Give them some unused land to start to farm, and some live stock. All this should be managed by the United Nations. Lastly, only give them citizenship after 10 years but once they start working, they must start paying taxes. I think by then they will be contributing members and those who are deciding they want to go back home would’ve done it before the 10 years.

Every nation has the right and indeed the responsibility to have sovereign borders.

Thanks for chiming in. To be clear: I’m seeing this thread as a thought experiment, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. Or any of them. I do think, though, that the ethical question is a fairly straightforward one. The questions of safety, money and space are much harder to answer.

@Here2_4

“Closed borders does not mean closed country. It simply means to enter people have to be welcomed.”

Why, though? Who am I to welcome people into my part of the world? All I have done to deserve this country of mine (and it’s a comfortable one, if nothing else) is get born in the right place. It would be ridiculous to pretend that the average German works harder than the average Syrian, the Germans just happen to be working in a fairly safe and well-organized part of the planet.

@Hawaii_Jake “What I’m advocating is a complete reworking of our planet. I have no illusions it’s going to happen soon.”

Yep, thanks!

@jca “I can see the logic oflooking at it from the point of view of a taxpayer. If one is paying taxes and supporting multiple people who don’t work, at what point does that become impossible?”

I can see that logic too, but I’m interested in the ethical approach. There are plenty of things we do even though we consider them to be wrong. It’s still important to know they are wrong.

@Cruiser ”[To] add insult to injury, the refugees are suing the government there for not giving them benefits fast enough.”

I’d be interested in your source. The refugees in my area are hard-working, friendly and extremely exhausted. They are not suing anyone.

Ethics in matters of sovereignty are always at the bottom of the list of considerations. Land is expropriated, ethnicities are excluded, and atrocities committed constantly in the name of national sovereignty. The truth of this is universal, regardless of the form or nature of the governments in question.

@longgone Ask and you shall receive

@Cruiser Thanks for the link, this puts things in perspective. I am completely willing to believe that a percentage of refugees as small as 0.004 is, indeed, suing the government.

Yes, it is reasonable and ethical. Do you live out in the open with no walls around you or a ceiling over you? Do you lock your doors? Our nations are similar to our houses. It is only reasonable to not allow just anyone to enter. Muslims want to take over the world, so some nations ban all Muslims, and that is wise. Anyone who is allowed to enter should be carefully screened to be as sure as possible that they are desirable additions to the nation, rather than criminals and invaders.

@SimpatichnayaZhopa why are we just talking of banning Muslims. Why not just kill them all, The dead cannot take over the world.

Quite a lot of religious sects want to take over the world (traditionally it’s been one of the aims of Mormonism, for example). But for some reason people only lose their shit at the idea of Muslims doing it.

^^^ Maybe that’s because they aren’t threatening to kill you if you don’t convert.

Ha! Mormonism’s history of extreme violence and antagonism towards non-Mormons is hardly a secret.

Muslims are worst. They want to force their ways upon everyone and eventually kill non-Muslims as the Quran orders. Christians have a bloody history as well, but now Muslims are on a jihad. Someone who claims I am an obscenity psycho is the real danger.. Such immature, false and savage remarks should be removed. It is sad that liberals uphold Muslims. Mormons and Christians are somewhat calmer now, so do not compare them to current Muslims. I advocate fighting against all religions who try to force their beliefs upon everyone. “In God We Trust” should be removed from US money, and “under God” should be removed from the Pledge of allegiance. They were added in the 1950s by the Eisenhower gang. The Founding Fathers would not approve of having any god on either.

Sorry, but the Constitution of the United States guarantees all the freedom or religion. Perhaps as an immigrant to this country (as you claim), you might want to familiarize yourself with the bedrock that the Founding Fathers (who’s legacy you invoke) laid down.

The US Constitution forbids a state religion, so preferring one religion in such flagrant manner is unconstitutional.. No gods should be on the US money or in the Pledge of Allegiance. That is not freedom of religion but tyranny by one religion. I evidently know the US Constitution better than some Americans on here. Freedom of religion is not Muslims forcing their ways upon everyone. That is denial by them of freedom of religion.

My comment wasn’t about our money (you’ll get no argument from me there). It was about your “It is sad that liberals uphold Muslims” remark.

What we liberals uphold is everyone’s right to practice the religion of their choosing.

Muslims are on a jihad to take over the world. Their right does not include forcing their ways and beliefs upon everyone. They do not want to adjust to other nations’ ways but force theirs upon the world. Europe is in chaos from Muslims. Japan and some other nations ban Muslims. Everyone should, but some liberals are blind to the danger. Crying, “Racism”, and, “Freedom of Religion”, is a diversion from the Muslim invasion. Those items are not the actual issue. Liberals allow Muslims to take over.

Take over what?

@SimpatichnayaZhopa You are mistaken in your beliefs about liberals. Most liberals realize that there is a possible challenge involved in changes such as allowing others into your personal space, in this case their country but what you fail to realize is that to us me, you are just as big of a risk as any muslim of which you rave about, particularly with your overtly aggressive, fascist attitude.

You people will go to any lengths to uphold Muslims. I am not overly aggressive or fascist. You tell insultging lies.

Um, yes, yes you are both aggressive and fascist and probably paranoid as well.

And I bet your knees ache from all that little goosestepping too.

More stupid insulting lies. A gang os harassers hate me since I am not brainwashed by the Lunatic Left Lying Media as they are. I am tired of you harassing libelers. I am not paranoid. You are not a psychiatrist. You just copy CNN in trying to invent faults for me as it does for Trump.

Why are folks on the right so quick to accuse anyone left of Attilla the Hun to be consumed with hatred?

I am being subjected to a campaign of harassment by a gang who makes many outrageous false accusations against me, e.g. that I am a “Russian spy” or “Russian troll” when I hate Russia for invading my homeland and making me a refugee. I am told to leave by three of them. I am accused of being Irrational, paranoid, illogical, etc., etc. That is real hate on display, so it should be pointed out. WHY ARE PEOPLE ON THE LEFT SO EAGER TO MAKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM? WHY ARE YOU IN SUCH A FRENZY OF HATE FOR THE PRESIDENT AND HIS SUPPORTERS? Mauch of the answer is that the liberal media constantly incites such a frenzy of rage and hate for conservative?

You and your conservative brethren should learn the difference between hate and contempt.

I am not controlled by emotions as my attackers are. I do not hate anyone, but I do feel contempt for such people who are barbarians. The liberal media arouses frenzy, so that your group cannot be reasonable and objective. You start trouble and accuse me of doing it, copying Christians again. Liberals have learned much from Christians, e.g. tis double standard. According to you, you are allowed to provoke me, and I am starting trouble if I reply to you. Both liberals and Christians shamelessly exploit tragedies to further their nefatious agendas.

And since the current tragedy is parked in the White House it must be exploited.

Trump is much better than Hillary and Obama my American friends tell me. Children are being exploited. It is insane to have naïve and hysterical children dictate national policy. The liberals are extremists.

You need new friends. Any “friend” of yours unable to determine that Trump is an ignorant fool is in serious need of enlightenment.

Only mindless brainwashed liberals insult the president as you do. My friends are far superior to my enemies here. Trump is far better than Hillary and Obama. Anyone who mindlessly believes Trump is a fool is in extremely serious need of deprogramming. Turning off CNN, etc. might begin a cure.

How dare you call my friends ignorant fools! That describes you and your gang who harass me with such insulting lies constantly.

You are correct, I am not a psychiatrist but I don’t have to be. I think your little hissy fit rants about “a campaign of harassment”, your constant insults to others and the like, kinda knock your argument about not being paranoid out of the ballpark

And I think you have confused not being in control of your emotions with not “being” controlled by them.

Saying someone needs to be deprogrammed for thinking a certain way is kind of fascistic don’t you think? Perhaps they too should be deported

Getting a little irrational and emotional here aren’t you? Sort of weird for someone who is not controlled by their emotions.

Anyway, have a nice day with your friends. Try not to burn anything down.