Have you read the book While Europe Slept about Muslim immigration in Europe?

I have not read the book but on its face it sounds like it addresses something that I have been thinking about in the past week regarding assimilation.

While there are those immigrants who come into a country with bad intent, it seems to me that a much larger percentage of those who become radicalized either came in as small children or are second generation family members. Either way, they did not have the same prior life experiences of their parents but grew up in a society that either did not accept them or that they, or their family, chose not assimilate into.

The question is whether this resistance to assimilation is due to an existing society’s refusal to accept the newcomers or an attempt by the newcomers to retain the cultural norms of their country of origin. Or, more likely, a combination. More later, gotta run.

@rojo The person who told me about the book, who is generally very liberal on social issues, and knows I am too, said we should be grateful to the right wingers for wanting immigrants to learn English and what at least on the surface sounds like xenophobia.

She went on to say that people who haven’t lived in diverse cities (even in America) are idealistic and unrealistic about what it takes for different groups and cultures to get along, and that some cultures shouldn’t be coddled.

Her opinion not mine, but I agree with parts of it.

I think it has to do less with assimilation and more with a society being used to immigrants. People here in Norway are much less used to people with dark skin than Americans are. Some people I know who were born here and are children of immigrants constantly asked where they are from. I revel when they answer, Vikhammer. Asylum seekers are given years of free schooling here to help them, but as a society, and I expect it goes on in other countries to certain levels, immigrants here are just not accepted the same way. Norwegians don’t have a friendly, neighbourly way about them like in New Zealand or places in the US I’ve lived. I think it is getting better, but it takes time for people to get used to the unfamiliar.

@cazzie In America we constantly ask people where they are from.

^^^ Usually it is “Whur YOU frum?” ^^^

“By the third generation, people are usually very Americanized.”

By that, do you mean people whose parents were already born in America?

If so, I’m fairly certain it’s similar over here. Admittedly, I find it hard to pin-point a degree of “assimilation” – but even direct descendants of immigrants are usually fluent in the language and do not dress noticeably different. I think they do sometimes have a hard time reconciling expectations of their families with the very different ideas of Germans. For example, I have a friend who is still (at age 25) expected to be home by a certain time. That kind of thing must be difficult for both the parents and the children. But then, I have another friend whose parents are immigrants from the same area – and that person has extremely liberal parents. Which goes to show that “the immigrants” don’t exist.

I am not offended by expectations to conform, but I am frustrated and annoyed by them. I lived in Korea for two years, when I was a teen, and I know how being away from home can make people concentrate on what home is. At age twelve, I idealized Germany – just because I was homesick. When my sister and I first heard our new school was putting on a play for Christmas, we vowed not to take part – just because we were homesick. As soon as we got used to our new lives, I remembered the things I did not like about Germany – and that school play was loads of fun.

I think immigrants should be given time. Leaving your home is difficult, and losing it must be so much worse.

A few weeks back, there was an article in one of our tabloids, ranting about refugees who had, apparently, complained about the food. I had to chuckle. Imagine a large group of Germans (or Americans, I guess) being shipped to Syria after losing their homes to terrorists. They’ve endured dangerous boat rides and terrifying border crossings. Many have lost friends and family. Now, they’re living in tents and being served Syrian food. It would take two days, at the most, until someone started to complain about the food. That’s guaranteed.

The thing about the “melting pot” is that it’s not just the immigrants who change, but also the culture of the entire pot changes as well. For example one could argue that with the recent influx of people from Latin america, the US culture has become more Latin in some respects. I’ve seen Spanish translations on a lot of products for example.

If you look back historically, the US has adopted aspects from other cultures. The creole culture of the South is a blend of African, Caribbean, and French cultures/cuisine/language. I’ve even heard that Ebonics derived much of it’s sentence structure from those sources. Jazz and rock and roll are derived from the blues, which is of African origin. There’s probably an Irish pub and Chinese food restaurant in nearly every decently-sized American town. I could go on, but you get the point. In the US, assimilation works both ways with the melting pot.

I have to agree with @gorillapaws. I look at how we have changed here in Texas with the influence of the Mexican culture and, for the most part, I have to like what I see. Sure, it is not what it was but as they say, “The only thing constant is change”.

From my perspective you will have more difficulty if rather than absorbing immigrants into the existing society there are separate enclaves that form either by choice or by design.

@gorillapaws Much of the appearance of Spanish (and French!) on labels came about because of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which eased import and export of goods. It is a lot cheaper for a big canning or packaging operation to print labels that are good for any market than to have to produce one for Canada, one for the US, and one for Mexico.

The idea of the US as a Melting Pot has pretty much been discredited as a myth of White people trying to assuage their lack of acceptance of other cultures. The paradigm of assimilation is that other cultures and other races should/must become, behave and accept white culture as the only true American culture.

@cazzie @rojo “Where are you from” or “where is your family from,” or “what are you?” Lol.

@longgone Children of immigrants in the US (first generation) usually are very Americanized actually. They are bilingual or only speak English. Most of the time they dress like Americans, although sometimes they have more conservative rules about how they dress depending on what country they are from, or what religion they practice. Often they have stricter rules in the family if the parents are from Asia (the continent).

Some of those first generation kids rebel. A close friend of my family’s son married a first generation Vietnamese girl. She doesn’t want to do anything from her culture for herself or her daughter. Her parents were very strict, her dad a bit of a tyrant, and she associates it all together I guess. I think it’s a shame. The little girl looks Amerasian. Not that it really matters how she looks, but she will be asked where her family is from.

My niece and nephew are first generation American and they say they don’t really know how to answer the question what are you, because their dad is Italian, mother is Mexican, my nephew was born in America, and niece was born in Dom Rep, but lived in America since the age of two. They are very American in my opinion, but you can see the family stuff in them culturally too, and some of it is stereotypical.

I’m second generation on one side of my family and growing up wit a grandfather who immigrated here, I’m still in touch with the idea that my country is a place that has been built on immigration. I think my kids, if I had any, would be less aware of the gravity of that unless I made sure they knew.

I’d say by the third generation there is little chance of spiting their backgrounds or feeling conflicted.

In the south and western parts of America (not the west coast) it’s not unusual for people to barely be aware of where their families came from and its unusual to them for people to ask where their family is from.

@JLeslie—as opposed to Asia (the rock band)?

^^As opposed to Asia the way Americans use the word. I’m including the Middle East and India in other words, and whatever other surrounding countries on that continent.

I’m like 10th generation. Y’all all immigrants as far as I’m concerned.

I’m a (cauc)Asian snowback immigrant. ;-)

@Darth_Algar Are you making fun of me? Or, just having fun.

@JLeslie “My niece and nephew are first generation American and they say they don’t really know how to answer the question what are you, because their dad is Italian, mother is Mexican, my nephew was born in America, and niece was born in Dom Rep, but lived in America since the age of two. They are very American in my opinion, but you can see the family stuff in them culturally too, and some of it is stereotypical.”

The question of what people are is rarely asked, over here. Interesting. I’ve never thought about that. A friend of mine was recently complimented on her German, though. She came here at seven years of age, and I’m very proud of her for responding, “Oh, you too!”

@longgone I think partly because America has been so diverse since it’s beginnings that it is part of our vernacular to find out where people are from. Germany has been fairly homogeneous for hundreds of years. In the parts of America that have little diversity, or had very little for most of the 200+ years since our independence, and not a lot of new immigrants for the last 100 years, you hear it asked less.

^ That makes sense, I guess.

@longgone When you meet someone who is obviously not German do you ask where they are from? I’m just curious because some people new to America find it odd or suspicious that Americans do it.

Most Americans do it out of curiosity or a possible connection. But, some people think we are doing it because we are racist or prejudiced or don’t like the politics if that government or some other negative reason. Probably that’s true for a few, but a very very small percentage.

It’s not uncommon for an American to be a quarter this a quarter that and you tell some guy named Joe Viviano that you are German and next thing you know he is telling you his Oma made the best Spätzle.

^ Not likely, no. I think we’d be more likely to ask people we presume to be from the European Union where they are from. If someone had a British accent, or seemed Scandinavian, I can see those people being asked. I believe most people would be unlikely to ask those who seem to be of Turkish descent, because so many of them are born here. It is assumed that they are tired of being seen as different, and from what I know after discussing it with my Turkish friends, that does seem to be accurate.

@longgone In the last ten years I’ve become more aware that people from some countries find the question either offensive, annoying, or monotonous when people ask them where they are from. Especially, those who feel there is a negative stereotype associated with their group.

My BIL hates it, and changed his first name to make it even less likely people will think he is Mexican. My husband proudly says he is Mexican when asked. Although, sometimes they ask partly because of his last name, which is not a typical Mexican name, so he doesn’t really answer the question, because his name is Sephardic, his paternal grandparents are from Israel. If someone asks me about my married name I answer the question regarding the origin of the name and where my Inlaws family is from.

I play a game sometimes when people ask what I am I say that my family is mostly from Latvia. I know they want to know if I’m Jewish, but they didn’t ask that.

Waiting for the accent, if they have one, is more polite than assuming from outward appearances.

@cazzie Why?

It is not good people skills to prejudge a person because of their looks. Something we should have all learned by 12 years of age.

Who is prejudging? Sometimes we might have a guess in our minds, but you imply people only ask people who look different than the majority. My friends who look stereotypical “white American” I ask them too. Many are Polish, some Irish, some German, some Welch, etc. No accent, they are second and third generation American, sometimes more. Or, it might be a last name that sparks interest, not look or accent.

Your second, third generation Polish and German friends aren’t being asked where they are from, you are asking them what their heritage is. There is a difference.

@cazzie Not in my mind. You don’t think some Mexican third generation Americans and Palestinian second generation Americans down in parts of the Bible Belt don’t want to be asked where they are from, or worry about the response of the asker? I think it really depends on the city and who is asking. The more diverse the less it matters and the more it is asked.

Having said that it’s not like I am asking everyone I meet their heritage or where they are from, I’m only saying it’s not unusual, and the intent by most people is just curiosity or conversation that is getting to know you and make connections.

I’m just curious, you say accent it’s ok to ask, but how someone looks it isn’t. What about their last name? That’s what I get questioned about the most now.

My last name is no indication of where I’m from. I’d bet neither is yours.

You know my married name and it very much implies what part of the world people with that last name are from and that they are Jewish. Most Jews know, but gentiles sometimes don’t and they are curious where the name is from. Look up my married name in the Wikipedia. When I took his name it occurred to me if a plane is hijacked I’m probably the first one dead. This is way before 9/11. I was married in 1993. I get asked about my married name at least once a month, sometimes more.

@JLeslie That’s where your name comes from. Not you. My last name, which you know as well. is plastered all over a certain European country, but I don’t even speak any of the languages spoken there. I’m not from there. If my name represented where I was from it would look something like, Little Feather TeKoru Jørgedatter.

@cazzie Right, my last name does not indicate where I come from, but it sparks the question, “where is your name from?” People ask is my point.

If they are totally clueless they don’t realize that it’s unlikely the name matches my own ethnicity and heritage, but many have no idea. I could easily be a quarter from that part of the world and not look stereotypical. If I had children they easily could look more like me and have that last name. Is it rude to ask?

Also, sometimes they are basically asking what is my husband if they know it’s my married name. People ask where my husband is from all the time. I tell them he’s Mexican and then often I get, “he doesn’t look Mexican,” or, “Lastname doesn’t sound Mexican.” They try to put the puzzle together.

People used to ask about my maiden name too. It’s extremely rare. That name does define my family. Most of my family is from Latvia and it’s a very Jewish name too.