Who are you supporting in the Russia - Turkey (Putin - Erdogan) tiff?
Initially I was sympathetic to Turkey’s case (shooting down the Russian warplane), because I think that the Russians aren’t helping matters in Syria and are probably making things worse by supporting Assad.
On the other hand, Erdogan is grade-A shit himself, and would like nothing better to become Emperor for Life in Turkey and roll back all of the secularization that took place in the last 70 years. He is no angel and no liberal, and certainly not a paragon of governing a liberal democracy.
But Putin is no icon of justice himself.
Where do you fall on this?
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I’m against both sides. Also I’m glad that I canceled cable. The news is all killed this fear that. Blah blah blah.
I am with Russia on this one, if Turkey or any of those other turkeys over there don’t have the balls to fire on the US or the UK for purposely violating air space to get what we want, they had no cause to shoot on Russia.
Looking at the big picture, I’m with NATO and Turkey. Putin is a ex-KGB thug, nothing else.
I don’t like turkey, much prefer chicken, so I guess Putin then.
My desire to be informed of at odds with my desire to remain sane.
I don’t know, I don’t want to know, don’t tell me more about it.
Whoever wins = everyone loses
I don’t know enough about it all to have a strong opinion, but I think I’m with Putin on keeping in leaders who lean secular. When the US went into Iraq I was hesitant because Sadam was secular and women could get educations and dress in western clothes, and I always fear theocracies in that part of the world, and getting rid of leaders makes room for new leaders. You never know what you are going to get. Unless we go in and really occupy the country and maybe take it over ourselves. Not that I’m suggesting it, but I think about it sometimes. This halfway stuff doesn’t seem to work. Not that taking over whole territories necessarily worked well in the past either.
It all sounds bad.
Secular tyrants can be controlled and coaxed in some way via sanctions (a.k.a. bullying).
You therefore can mold a Saddam and an Assad and a Gaddafi.
Even Iran, who are not as extreme as the propaganda wants you to believe.
But if actual religious extremists are in power, like AQ, IS, TB, Kony, etc., there is no chance for negotiations.
My sympathies are mostly with the Russians. Turkey should not have shot down the Russian plane. If it was in Turkish airspace it could only have been for seconds, a few words with the Russian ambassador would have been enough. I don’t think the Russians should be getting involved in Syria but it is hard to argue that when we are so heavily involved ourselves.
@JLeslie @ragingloli The problem of course is that the secular tyrants tend to be oppressive and suppressive to the religious, only fostering religious extremism and guaranteeing that there will be an even more oppressive power in place once they fall (see Khomeini and the Iranian Revolution for an example).
@DominicY All extremes are bad. I don’t know the answer. Not all countries go from secular to extremely religious and back again. It didn’t happen when Communist Russia fell. I guess maybe that’s different technically than the type of government we are talking about.
I think Putin had advance knowledge of the renewed Turkey/EU alliance and sacrificed a plane in an attempt to derail the whole thing.
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