Do I need to be on the alert on the subway?

I, for one, am giving you permission to read. I have no idea why it is considered rude not to offer up seats, but perfectly all right to ridicule young people who do not do so immediately.

When an elderly person needs or wants your seat, they can ask. Nicely. Being old does not excuse bad manners.

When said elderly person is too frail to even ask, it is everyone’s responsibility to help out – but, again, nicely.

The woman was rude as well as presumptuous. She is also tempting fate in dressing down fellow passengers in a crowded subway car. The assumption that you could be safely bullied is insulting and you would be justified in verbally apprising her of the mistake.

Was there no men on the subway? They should be the first to offer. Unless maybe no men were near the elderly person.

The woman was rude to you. If she thought you should get up, she should have asked you if you mind giving up your seat, she should not have yelled at you.

Do I think you should be more aware on the subway? It’s advisable. Mostly, because it’s good to be aware of your surroundings for your safety. Also, because it helps follow social rules of etiquette and politeness in general. Look back at old Q’s and you will see me complain about people not being aware of their surroundings. However, I also think if you want to read a book, go ahead. It makes sense to want to pass the time reading if you have a long ride. Having said that, as people shift around when entering the subway car you could look up. In crowded subways you might need to move your legs, or move a little to help everyone get accommodated.

I don’t think you’re obligated to be alert. I wouldn’t have taken that woman’s crap. Just because she’s elderly doesn’t give her the right to humiliate you. I would have told her off.

@JLeslie does make a good point, though, about safety. Number one in any public space is safety and we are always reminded to be aware of our surroundings. Maybe because you were sitting down you got comfortable with what was around you. My first thought when reading your question, the way you worded the question itself, was you were asking about safety, and my first thought was “yes, that’s a silly question. She should definitely be alert on a subway. Especially on a subway.” However your details give a whole different meaning to the question.

@jca Was it the actual elderly person who verbally scolded the OP? I assumed it was someone else. I don’t know why I assumed that?

@Mariah Any chance you were in a seat marked for handicapped?

You’re right, @JLeslie. A woman yelled at her for not giving up seat to elderly gentleman.

I still would have told the woman off.

@JLeslie

“Was there no men on the subway? They should be the first to offer.”

I think hope that rule is retired by now.

@jca Oh yeah, no question she was rude. I probably would have just told her she doesn’t have to tell and be so obnoxious, and I gladly will give up my seat (if I was willing to).

@longgone No, it should not be retired. They wear flat shoes, are not carrying a purse, have larger muscles (usually) so they fatigue the muscles more slowly than women (usually).

I give up my seat quickly for pregnant women and elderly people and young children. I don’t sit around waiting for a man to stand up first, but usually when I get up, a man nearby quickly offers instead so I can remain seated. They should. I hope you raise your sons to do it.

A lot depends on the situation.

Young people definitely should get up. My ability to stay standing has changed drastically from when I was under 30 to now when I am over 40. However, we can never assume how healthy someone is based on age. A 20 year old can have serious illness, and we can’t always tell how sick or weak someone is by looking at them.

I was thinking about the point made by @longgone, which was a good one, btw. In my opinion, it’s not a hard and fast “rule” that men give up their seat, but it was an expectation in the past and I if I were the OP, and there were a bunch of physically fit looking men around, I’d wonder why the woman was picking on me. No, we can’t assume that all who appear healthy are healthy, but I think a man would hopefully step up and let the OP keep her seat while he chooses to stand. Where I work, when there are heavy boxes to be lifted or transported (say, a shipment of promotional items needs to be moved into the supply room or a large bottle of water needs to be placed onto the water cooler), the men volunteer. I wouldn’t expect the men to stand around and watch me (a female) do it.

I think the whole issue of what were traditionally men’s roles and women’s roles is a good discussion and worthy of a question. I am going to ask it.

@jca Right. They can lift more weight just by virtue of being men. This is on average; the average man and average woman. They have less risk of injury, because items heavy for me aren’t for them, and they have longer arms for good leverage with larger boxes.

@longgone Don’t get me wrong, if I get up for someone else, and then a man quickly offers so I can keep my seat, I might tell him thanks, but I’m fine standing. I don’t take the offer necessarily because of some sort of traditional social rule.

I don’t wear heels, and I rarely carry a purse. I’m fine with standing during a subway ride – and no, I would not raise my son to think of women as less fit than men. I’d raise him to be compassionate, and get up for anyone who needs him to. This includes the elderly and disabled, but it does not include a young woman – unless, of course, that person is compromised in some way.

I get annoyed when men try to grab the box I am carrying, or snatch a drill from me. I’m fine. I know, I’m female – but I’ve learned to work around it.

I’m a jeans ans sneakers girl myself, I’m fine with standing on a subway or train and I am no weakling as far as my strength goes. I am good with hand tools and all that stuff that we often don’t think of as being traditionally female stuff but I do know when there’s a test for a civil service job like fireman, they often have to lower the requirement for the amount the applicant trainees have to carry, when women take the test, because women usually can’t lift the amount that men can. Not all women, of course but the majority.

When I was pregnant, for the majority of my pregnancy you wouldn’t have known, yet I was in that condition where given the choice between me standing or a man standing, yes, I would think a man would be a better candidate to stand.

I formulated a whole question about this subject but I lost it and don’t feel like typing it all over again. If one of you ladies or gents would like to ask it please do, I’d appreciate it being put out there as a separate topic. Others who are not on this thread could see it and answer.

@longgone To be compassionate is sufficient. If he sees a woman in heals, or carrying a large purse, hopefully that’s part of the compassion. Don’t get me wrong, I was in a supermarket line a few days ago and the guy behind me had a twelve pack of sodas and a couple of other items in his arms. I offered to let him put them in my cart as we waited on line. It’s not like women can’t help men.

No one should be grabbing anything out of your arms, but they should offer if the woman seems to be struggling or maybe short and the package is large for her, or for example when I’m on a plane it’s nothing for a man to put my luggage in the overhead, while for me it is more above my head so it’s more difficult. If a person 5’1” is reaching for something high on a shelf, I offer to help, I’m taller. Men are just typically taller in most situations.

Young men need to be taught though. When we are in heals, in a skirt, getting out of a sportscar, it is not easy. LOL. Come hold the door for me if all the spaces are full in the parking lot, so my door doesn’t accidentally hit the car next to me.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with both of your posts.

@jca On my phone (and in a hurry) or I’d ask it.

@longgone I wonder why it is offensive to some women that men might assume women need help, or could use the help? Those social norms and bits of etiquette are based on women being weaker, shorter, more likely to be colder or dressed in a way that does not provide as much warmth.

Not all gender based etiquette rules are to keep women submissive or in a weaker place, there are usually logical reasons the rules developed. Although, worth noting, some fashions contribute to a women being in a weaker position, and luckily we have more choice regarding fashion compared to many years past. My mother didn’t let me wear 5 inch heals, but she actually let me wear heals younger than most of my friends. I just needed to be able to run in them if necessary, and be very stable in them in general.

The rules mean we don’t need to rely on men to assess situations, they just can learn the rule. Some people need rules, they aren’t very socially in tune.

On the trains I look up at most stops to see if someone might need a seat more than me. Sometimes I forget, too, with my face glued to a book.

I’ve also tapped people on the should and asked if they could give up their seat for a pregnant woman or elderly person.

And on extremely rare occasions I’ve been yelled at. Maybe three times in 20 years.

It’s life in public. No big deal.

I read through and can’t find (but may have missed) where anyone mentioned that an elderly man might be deeply distressed by a young woman offering him her seat. If by elderly you mean 70 or older, most men in that category would be embarrassed and upset to be perceived as so infirm that an attractive (and all young women Mariah’s age are attractive to elderly gentlemen)young woman would offer him her seat. Times are changing, of course, and younger men don’t have the same cultural conditioning.
Just a point.

@jaytkay: In the case of the OP, it was more than just a tap on the shoulder. It sounded more like yelling and public humiliation.

I asked it. It’s in Social.

@canidmajor I find myself in conflict at times about whether to offer something to an elderly man. I usually base it on how frail they look, but even then it can be difficult to know sometimes. I almost always don’t do the age before beauty thing with men. I do sometimes offer my seat. Some people it’s very obvious they are unstable as the train starts or stops and that makes it easier. Balance diminishes with age for a lot of people. I also would look at their posture probably as part of the assessment, besides indications of age like wrinkles and hair color.

My recommendation would be that whenever you are in public you should be at least marginally alert to your surroundings – and the people around you – so that you can know when things are changing. Sometimes the changes aren’t benign, and the sooner you know that, the better your chances of living through the truly awful changes that happen from time to time.

So, yes, “you should be alert on the subway” – alert to change, that is. So I would be putting the book down at stops and passenger changes, if only to see (for my own sake) who’s getting off, who is left, and who’s getting on.

Whether you choose to give up your seat or not should be up to you. Others who accost and upbraid you for a choice that you make may not be aware of your own physical state – and you don’t have to let them know, either. In my mind, an elderly “gentleman” would not have complained to you (and apparently didn’t), so you’re perfectly within your rights to give that dame a steely-eyed unflinching stare and a menacing growl to, “Back off, bitch. You don’t know me.” (And then be fully aware for the rest of the ride where she is in relation to your seat.)

This is my “spinoff” question, inspired by this discussion:

http://www.fluther.com/186090/to-what-extent-do-you-appreciate-or-expect-men-to-do/

Next time pick a subway car that is not already full of elderly men and women and make sure there is at least one guy your age or younger. And if this ever happens again whip out your cell phone and videotape the hag and post it on youtube.

@Cruiser The problem is that video will also get a lot of lecture about how “kids” these days don’t respect their elders, are self absorbed, too busy on social media to know how to act in real life social circumstances, etcetera. Personally, I find a lot of adults are not socially aware also, and plenty of young people do hold doors and offer to help, but many people will focus on young people who are oblivious to what is going on around them. The OP was reading a book, so I think that gets more of a pass, but if she had been texting or facebooking, people would be more critical I think.

Courtesy should be appreciated & never demanded.

Thanks all, this helps.

To clarify, I was not in a handicap seat, I never sit in those. The woman was not elderly, she was speaking on behalf of an elderly man who had not spoken up himself. She did not exactly yell at me but her wording was rude and was heard by people around. I don’t remember if there were men around but I don’t completely agree that they should need to give their seats up first (but I also wear flat shoes and don’t carry a purse, so it might just be me). There were definitely lots of other young people around and sitting so I’m not sure why I was singled out except perhaps because I was the closest to the elderly man.

I know it shouldn’t bother me but it does. I’m very aware of my thin skin and I wish it were thicker but unfortunately wishing doesn’t make it so.

@Mariah: I feel like sometimes, when it’s not readily apparent why one was singled out, it may be due to the woman looking for someone she felt looked least likely to object. She might have scanned the faces of the people nearby and made a judgement call (and in this case she was accurate). She looked for someone she felt would not tell her off, and she chose correctly. Maybe you don’t exude an air of confidence, maybe she felt like the others looked more professional and therefore, more likely to know how to handle themselves. I used to have similar experiences to this one, and I would beat myself up over not speaking up and advocating for myself. Now that doesn’t happen, and I suspect it’s due to the appearance and air of confidence that I know I give off.

Interesting. Yeah even though I was fuming afterwards, in the moment my reaction was to say “Oh gosh I’m sorry” and stand up. I do not know how to stick up for myself. I always want to apologize for the space I’m taking up.

I think when I was younger, it might have been that I was intimidated by older people. I was brought up to “respect my elders.” Also, years of working and dealing with rudeness taught me to stand up for myself and tell people off when necessary.

@Mariah You shouldn’t sweat it! You were rudely startled from an engrossing read, and reacted politely without a chance to assess the situation. That’s the other thing that burns me up. You were effectively blindsided and probably chosen deliberately, because you were gauged least likely to tongue lash the woman to tears.

I think it’s ok to apologize for not noticing and stand up to relinquish your seat if you felt it was a nice thing to do for the elderly gentleman, but if also say something to the woman about her being a bitch in how she said it. Lol. You can do both. My apology would go to the man not her. She has some sort if chip in her shoulder and took it out on you. It’s not nice. She’s worrying about your etiquette and she needs to work on hers too. Etiquette is supposed to make people more comfortable, not less. People who use etiquette rules to make someone feel shitty missed an etiquette lesson.

Yes, I think you have an obligation to your fellow riders to be alert on the subway. There is a society around you and you need to respect them. So many people on the train are so oblivious because they’re doing other things (ok, 90% of the time it’s because they’re on their phone) that they cause problems. They walk in front of people, hold up a line of people, stand right in front of the doors when people are trying to enter, don’t move into the train when people are trying to make room for others, etc. I think it was good that you sat down instead of standing and wasting more space on a crowded train by not taking up a seat. Now, while not getting up for the man isn’t the worst thing (especially if the train was crowded), I think this lady was very disrespectful. Regarding what you said: “my reaction was to say “Oh gosh I’m sorry” and stand up., is that what you did? You say you have a thin skin, but that means you can’t work on getting a thicker skin. Being in the position gives you experiences with these kinds of things. Think of what you should have said, and that can help you deal with people in the future.

Yeah I look where I’m going when I’m walking. Also the whole reason I sit on the train is because I hate the feeling of constantly being in everybody’s way when I’m standing. At least when I’m sitting I’m only taking up the space that would already be taken up by the chair. It never even occurred to me that I could be being rude by existing and taking up space. I understand snapping at people for being actively rude but what I was doing was so passive. It was just a mistake.

Yes, the reaction I described before is what I did.

There were other people sitting right? She just picked on you. Mean girl.

All the seats were taken. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been a problem.

Regarding this: “It never even occurred to me that I could be being rude by existing and taking up space.”

That’s not true at all. It wasn’t even rude that you were sitting there without noticing the old person standing.
I think a better outlook is to appreciate the politeness you do see. That lady really made a huge deal about something so trivial. If she really cared about politeness and not vanity or self-righteousness or something like that, then she would’ve politely asked the man if he wanted to sit, and then maybe politely ask you if you could get up. It’s kind of like when you see all of that political shit on Facebook.

Some are quick to say they would answer her back in an aggressive manner. Why? You do not know this person, nor how they may react. Not a great area for movement nor defense if the need arises.
Take a moment to mentally step back and relax. The best response would have been to look at the situation and then back to the woman and state; “I’m sorry. Were you speaking to me?” – even though it is obvious. I have found this usually takes the wind out of someone’s sails. If she continues, she is the one looking foolish.
Then look at the gentleman and ask him if he would like to sit down. Speak right over her, had she continued to berate.
By giving that response it allows that you were unaware of the situation. The only person to whom an apology would be applicable would be to the elderly gentleman.
What would it have changed if perhaps she was the one with the need to sit?
Before popping off, realize where you are, and appropriateness. And yes, safety.

Good point by @dxs about the obligation to yourself and others, when in public, to observe others for your own safety, and also to be mindful of who’s around and what’s going on. So many times now in public (in stores, on the street, etc.), people will stop in the middle of walking and look down at their phones. Number one annoying thing. Step to the side. Just an example.

On a train, be aware of who gets on, where they are and what they’re up to, just for your own safety.