When looking for a new dog, how can you tell what temperament a puppy is going to have as an adult dog?

Although a puppy will be different in a new home, where it is the only puppy, than with its litter mayes, there are a few things I look for other than OMG FLUFFY CUTENESS. I want one that’s not as mouthy or pushy in the litter, and on visitors’ hands (and shoelaces!). Not the shyest/most frightened, but not the most in your face, either.
All that said, it’s hard to remember when you are faced with all the cutes and you just damn well like THAT one.
I hope they find the perfect one. :-)

Are they looking for any particular breed or size? I wish for them the happiest of puppies!

I’m suggesting a German Shepherd. Those manage to do OK in the house, unlike labs and such.

Oh, wonderful! I love them. Actually, I have a fondness for all the herders. You probably already know then that if they are going to a breeder to make sure that the parents have at least been cleared for eyes (CERF) and joints, especially hips (OFA), as German Shepherds gave been so popular that they’ve had some nasty alleles reinforced by overbreeding.
If you already know this, sorry for being redundant.
Yay fuzzy puppy!!! :-)

Well…I doubt they’ll go to a breeder….

Well, then, I recommend that they have the vet check out the puppy very thoroughly, as backyard breeders (where a lot of shelter and newspaper puppies come from) don’t worry about the long term effects. They should familiarize themselves with some of the likely breed-specific medical issues that can come up, so they can be prepared. If they get a mixed breed puppy from a shelter, it will probably be healthier and more robust.

Thanks. I also think a mixed breed is best. We accidentally wound up with a pure bred German Shepherd, who has just been a dream.

I just can’t imagine paying money for a dog or a cat!

There are lots of reasons to pay money for a dog or a cat. There are very very few reasons to abandon that dog or cat, or to let it breed irresponsibly.

You’ll never know for sure but nothing beats a good rescue mutt.

I don’t understand your logic, or your comment, or what prompted it, @canidmajor. IMO there are NO reasons to abandon any cat or dog, or let it breed irresponsibly, whether it’s a free mutt puppy or kitten, or a rescue or purchased from a breeder.

Sometimes, @Dutchess_III, lonely people die and have no one to care for their pets. My nephew, the fireman/EMT has described such situations to me, and how badly he feels when they have to take the animals to the shelter, essentially abandoning them there.
Or a person with pets becomes unable to care for them, and no one in the family is able to take them. That happens more often than I like to think about. It is always a sad thing.

OK, I can see situations where that may be the only alternative. But how does that tie in with whether you pay for a dog or cat or get them for free?

So are you picking a puppy from a litter or a dog from a pound?

It doesn’t, specifically. The point was that there are a number of reasons to pay for a dog or cat, and few to none to abandon them. The key word there is “reasons”, not “pay”.

OK, what are some of the benefits of paying for a dog, unless you’re reimbursing the seller for vaccinations or something?

I think I didn’t make that very clear. When you said you couldn’t imagine paying for a dog or a cat, I just was responding to that, and expanding on the abandoning thing.

When I rescue, I rescue adult dogs, and have a trial period to get to know them to see if they’ll be a good fit for my household.
I buy purebred puppies because I want to have a pretty clear idea of size, temperament, and personality traits. I know that the parents have been examined and certified to not be passing down nasty alleles for eye and/or hip problems. It gives me a strong start on how to raise the puppy for best results for my needs.

Those are some good points. I still prefer to adopt whatever might be available within the general range of what I want. Same with cats. It’s never let me down. And a rescue is a rescue.

I guess the real point is that any responsible way one acquires a pet is good, as long as the commitment to not abandon it is there.
I’ve never bought a cat, they just kind of keep happening to me. That’s OK, I loves me a houseful of furry ones! :-)

Cats keep happening to me too! This latest one, Mom just dumped her on our back deck. I found a cat at a laundry mat once. They’re everywhere, just begging to be adopted.

How the puppy reacts when a loud noise is made can be an indicator of fear reactions. If it cowers or hides vs if it is curious, for example. Same thing for when something like a plastic bag is shaken open around them. You don’t want a nervous dog.

Side note: with top quality breeders, you often don’t get to pick your own dog anyway.

knowledge of the breed and your own intuition

@AdventureElephants: it depends entirely on the breeder. The pet quality puppies are sold differently than the show quality pups. I won’t deal with a breeder that doesn’t let me have some say.

Im not sure how you could tell what their temparment would be like as a puppy, but one of the best breeds I could recommend is the Golden Retriever. I have never owned one, but they are known to be very lovable and family friendly dogs. Have you thought of adopting? I would definitely recommend adopting. It can possibly save a dogs life, and its cheaper.
Also, before you buy a dog make sure you know where it has come from, and dont buy from pet shops as they commonly sell dogs from puppy farms.

@lugerruger: If you go back and read the thread, you’ll find it already covers your points.

@lugerruger Golden Retrievers eat houses, don’t they? Also, the way I figure it, any dog you get, whether it’s a mutt “free puppy” or a full grown dog being rehomed, is saving a life. Also, I doubt they’d pay money for a dog so “cheap” isn’t an issue.

@MollyMcGuire I doubt they’d get a pure bred. Also, please read the details. I have used my own intuition in the past, and it’s guided me well. However, I won’t be the one picking out the dog, so I’m trying to get a feeling for what specific things my son and his wife should be looking for, so I can tell them.

@AdventureElephants That was a good suggestion! I’ll remember that.

There are loads of reasons to pay money for a dog. Here are just two:

1. Getting a dog should be well-thought out. Giving puppies away for free encourages our thoughtless practice of acquiring and discarding animals at will.
2. Raising puppies is expensive. Good breeders feed both pups and parents a high-quality diet. They screen for congenital defects and diseases, they expose the puppies to a myriad of different situations, and they are available to advise – and take the puppy back – for the dog’s lifetime.

Getting a dog for free means you are risking an awful lot. Vet costs can become very high, and behavioral issues may prevent you from having fun with your dog. Sadly, in our society, this is not yet seen as much of a problem. There is very little attention paid to our animals’ quality of life. They get fed well, they sleep in our homes, many of them get vitamins and hourly cuddles – and yet, the fact that a high amount of pets spend their lives in pain, fear, or constant excitement is ignored.

Disregarding all that, here is the answer to your question:

A startle response is interesting. Whether you drop your keys, or use a squeaky toy – the litter’s reaction to an unexpected sound says a lot about the puppies.

Creating a low-level frustration is a possibility, too. You could very gently restrain the puppies, or separate them from littermates by a small gate or such.

If at all possible, taking the puppy into an unfamiliar area can be worthwhile. Puppies usually behave very differently when out of their familiar surroundings.

The free puppies are out there. They need saving too, just as much as any high class, carefully bred puppy does. Maybe more, before they wind up in a gunny sack with a boulder in it and thrown in the river.
I put thought in to every dog I’ve ever gotten. Well, except for Dakota! Just because they were free didn’t mean I treated them irresponsibly. I wouldn’t have treated them any differently even if I’d paid for them.

“The free puppies are out there.”

For every dog we save from puppy mills and backyard breeders, another one is being born. As long as irresponsible breeding is legal, and even lucrative, it will go on. I’d rather have dead puppies now than continued support for a trade which deals with living animals, while totally unconcerned with these animals’ quality of life.

I believe you when you say you were responsible about getting and caring for your dogs. The big picture is the issue, though.

Puppy mills and back yard breeders are breeding dogs for profit. When people give puppies away for free, obviously they’re not profiting in any way. They just need to find a home for the puppies. Maybe it was the female’s first litter and they just hadn’t gotten her spayed yet. Maybe she got out of the yard for an hour at the wrong time (that’s how I wound up with my Sunffy.) Maybe they did it through a chain link fence. Those people aren’t “breeding” the dogs, they’re just trying to find homes.

Anyway, the most important thing to me is the dog’s temperament and personality. I could care less about the “breeding.” I would generally like a German Shepherd, but if that’s mixed with some other breed, and it’s a good puppy, that’s fine with me.

That’s why I said,

‘legal, and even lucrative’

While not all irresponsible breeding is lucrative, all of it is irresponsible. None of it should be encouraged. I agree that there are accidental pregnancies, but in my experience, those are very rare. People who shrug and let their dogs have fun with a friend of the opposite sex, though, are not rare at all.

By breeding, you seem to mean the specific breed. That’s not what I mean. Mutts can be well-bred, as well, though they are not typically referred to as such. Good breeders definitely pay attention to temperament and personality (which the accidental breeders in your examples obviously were unable to do), though they also look at the breed’s stability in general. As mentioned above, German Shepherds have been becoming more likely to develop health problems. An extraordinarily high amount of them is short-sighted, which has been linked to aggressiveness. Similar issues are common in all fashionable breeds, and, sadly, even buying a mutt does not in any way guarantee a healthy pup. A puppy whose parents suffer from hereditary hip dysplasia or chronic breathing problems will very likely inherit those issues, whether it is pure-bred or not.

There are dogs born with hip and elbow bones which will not last a year, all the time. Puppies which will develop urinary stones once you’ve had them for two months. Dogs which can’t see in daylight, or those who will, with a 100% chance, go blind at six months.

Genetic tests would have revealed these illnesses. Even better, sensible pairing of parents would have rendered them impossible. There are still puppies being born, and it is very common for vets to tell new puppy owners that the money they saved by getting the puppy cheap will now go toward veterinary bills, for the remainder of the dog’s life, unless they get rid of it. This is because of irresponsible breeding.

Are you saying only certain kinds of dogs are worth saving? I’m not quite understanding your argument.

Of course letting a dog have litter after litter is irresponsible. But not taking a puppy isn’t going to change that. Best case, they’ll just keep loading the litters up and taking them to the pound. Worst case….

So someone does genetic testing on a litter of pups, and finds that they’re going to have these illnesses. What then? What do they do with the pups? Euthanize them?

You said, ” it is very common for vets to tell new puppy owners that the money they saved by getting the puppy cheap will now go toward veterinary bills, for the remainder of the dog’s life, unless they get rid of it.” Get RID of it? Seriously?

Well, maybe dog’s lives don’t really matter all that much.

I appreciate @longgone‘s take on this. If you find a cheap (or free, or rescue) German Shephard… I would seriously question why.

Well, our Dakota was free. I’ll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

What? Nobody wants to ask questions about my Dakota? I wanna talk about her! She’s the most awesome dog ever. She is a full blood German Shepherd. She was so cheap she was free, and she was a rescue and for that she has been eternally grateful to us, and…what no questions??

She’s horrible….with…kids. Yeah, I used to have 10 grand kids, but now I only have 7 cuz she ate three of ‘em. She eats kittens too. And she hates other dogs.

Looks like a mutt to me.

LOLL! THAT is the funniest thing I have ever heard! Dakota looking like a mutt! Oh, I gotta tell Carlos! Oh my…I can’t breath!

No, she came from a long line of pure bred German shepherd attack dogs.

You just seem to want to argue, so I’m trying to be disagreeable.

I’m just responding to your comment: ” If you find a cheap (or free, or rescue) German Shephard… I would seriously question why.” I understand Dakota is one in a million and we simply got lucky. Hell, we weren’t even in the market for a dog at the time, but Rick said her owner was gonna take her out and shoot her, so he brought her home.

My point is, you can get superior dogs for nothing.

My first dog, Snuffy, was a mutt. My sister’s father in law had a Cocker Spaniel. She escaped the yard and walked the streets on the wrong side of town for a few hours, and managed to get knocked up by who knows what. We took one of the puppies. We had her for 15 years. I still miss her.

Really, @Dutchess_III, hooray for your great dog. So you get your dogs for free or cheap. Hooray for you again. Not everyone does things the way you do, and guess what? We’re not stupid or wrong for doing things differently, but you sure seem to have a seriously closed mind about the possibility of other options.
You asked why people would pay for a dog, we told you why. Your dogs have not been better than mine, but it’s good you think so.
Open your mind. You might be surprised.

I’m not saying you are stupid or wrong. I didn’t ask how to find a dog or where I should go looking for a dog. I already know how to do that.
I asked how to tell a dog’s temperament when they’re a puppy.

@Dutchess_III Dakota is probably a great dog. You can get superior dogs for nothing, but they come at a high cost to the world’s dogs’ health and sanity.

I’m saying that it makes little sense to save individual puppies, when supporting sensible breeders would not only provide you with a healthy puppy, but also help work toward the goal of no longer needing to save puppies.

“So someone does genetic testing on a litter of pups, and finds that they’re going to have these illnesses. What then? What do they do with the pups? Euthanize them?”

The potential parents are tested. If they are carriers, they’re excluded from the gene pool. In some cases, both parents need to be carriers, so it is possible to keep breeding, provided the parents are well-matched.

I used the phrase “get rid of” to demonstrate the mindset I am taking issue with.

But I have no wish to deal with “breeders” of any kind. But apparently there is a demand for them, but it’s not coming from me.

@longgone

Between the pathetic glut of shelter animals and rescue groups and purebred rescue groups, there is no excuse, ever, to breed anything.
Maybe, IF, we ever got to the point where laws were imposed with penalties for not spaying/neutering, and the populations really dwindled, then maaaybe, license a few breeders that demonstrate a passion to a certain breed. Actually, given the world wide issues with animal abandonment and cruelty and excess, there would be no shortage of adoptions on an international level as well. Just like children, the world is full of abandoned and unwanted humans and cats and dogs and horses and burros.

Stopping wanton breeding and finding homes for all the worlds abandoned and forgotten is the answer, not breeding any more of anything.

This guy is my hero, working tirelessly to save ALL animals across the world.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKeNeyD3gOg

Even if the U.S. and most of Europe reached a zero population growth for domestic pets, countries like India and Turkey and other 3rd world nations have gazillions of abused and abandoned animals in need. No breeding is in order until we care for the animals already in existence.

Sure, let’s force everybody to adopt a genetically inbred pit bull or chihuahua. That solves everything.

Where did that comment even come from @AdventureElephants? @Coloma is simply saying we need to have stricter laws governing breeding.

I would not adopt either a pit bull or a chihuahua, or any combination thereof, and certainly no one could force me to. I would never knowingly get any dog that was deliberately created as some sort of curious experiment. There are tons of other types of dogs out there for the taking. My other dog is a 100% Some Sort Of Springer Spaniel Something Or Other Mix. She was born to a farm dog. Her name is Dutchess. Her nick name is Yupid. She’s Dakota’s pet.

@AdventureElephants If you were addressing my sharing I said nothing of the sort, other than adopting animals that already exist. There would still be animals that were not suitable for adoption and in those cases humane euthanasia would be the highest choice. Inbred pits with aggressive tendencies and highly neurotic chihuahuas for example. Most mixed breed shelter dogs make great pets.

I don’t think everything can or should be saved, but many, many can and putting the brakes on indiscriminate breeding is where it begins.

Actually, @Dutchess_III, she said a couple of times, “there is no excuse, ever, to breed anything.” That is a direct quote, and she emphasizes it. Are we reading the same responses here?

Indiscriminate breeding? Same question to you, @Coloma. Have you been reading anyone else’s responses at all? Perhaps you are confused as to why the AKC is so heavily involved in matching breeders based on stock and genetics. There is nothing indiscriminate about paying to have eyes, hips, elbows, and knees certified and genetic markers for disease ruled out before pairing two high quality pure breed dogs. Far from it. Why do you think some breeds/dogs are so expensive? It isn’t because they are pretty. There are people invested in maintaining healthy lineages of dog breeds… And then there are your indiscriminate backyard breeders. The entire counterpoint to @Dutchess_III getting a backyard bred German Shephard is thoroughly discussed above. It encourages indiscriminate breeding. So while I agree that for many, many pet owners a rescue is a great option, it is not the only option for a solid reason.

What you should be encouraging is mandatory neutering/spaying for all mutts and pet quality dogs along with registering them… Which most pet owners fail to do in the first place.

A responsible pure breed pet owner rarely ends up with a knocked up bitch. When I enter into a situation with other dogs I scope it out. I call out to other male owners that I have an intact male and ask if it will cause problems. I don’t want other males fighting my dog, which is more likely with intact males. If I see aggression we remove ourselves. If I see my dog taking an interest in another female dog I always ask the owner if the female has been spayed. If the answer is no then we remove ourselves. So we agree completely on indiscriminate breeding. It isn’t hard for me to avoid.

I’m not trying to be rude, I’m trying to explain why breeding pure bred dogs is so important, and those of us involved in breeding do take it very seriously. You should see the contract on my dog. It’s no joke.

@AdventureElephants I certainly agree with spaying and neutering and being a responsible and committed breeder is admirable, but I still stand by my sentiments that breeding any animal, purebred or otherwise is ethically questionable given the glut of surplus animals out there. Making money, or even a living from breeding is just not ethical when there are so many homeless animals out there. Wanting to preserve and promote a certain breed is a hobby not a necessity and I don’t feel that people should be breeding/paying large amounts of money for an animal when so many others are being euthanized. No offense but I would never encourage anyone to buy from a breeder when they can adopt from a shelter or purebred rescue group from a pool of healthy and tested and vetted animals.

Adoption is the highest choice IMO given the gross over population and euthanizing of animals world wide.
I do agree with genetic testing, considering the stats say that 25% or more of AKC dogs have defects, and the registry has no health standards for breeding, lending itself to a lot of unscrupulous breeders that will breed two of anything regardless, just to make a buck.
The only breeding restriction is the dog can be no younger than 8 months old. Attention to health among breeders is voluntary not mandatory.

The Wikipedia page for the AKC is quite scandalous and not impressive from a ethical perspective.

Thanks for your response, @Coloma. I see your point of view, certainly. I mentioned pits and chihuahuas because every shelter I go to is full of them and it’s very, very sad. I disagree that preserving breeds is a hobby, however. I also have a much different view of why dogs are bred.

As far as adopting from a breed rescue, I decided I wanted a specific breed and thought about getting that breed for 3 years. I put myself on the national rescue listing for that breed. Three years later I had not been contacted once. The breed I wanted simply does not come up for rescue often. So I contacted several breeders, all whom knew each other. I bought one, and have been impressed with the communication among owners nationwide. It’s more than a hobby to choose a well bred dog.

To relate to @Dutchess_III original question… I purchased my dog before he was born. I bought a puppy from one of the next two litters bred, with the understanding that I may have to wait as long as a year to actually get a dog. I discussed why I wanted that breed and what traits I desired thoroughly with the breeder. He chose my puppy based on those conversations and observation of the litter interacting for 7 weeks. He sent me pictures and updates on the whole litter, and on “judgement day” he chose the best puppy for each buyer. I wasn’t even sure if I would be chosen for the first litter… It was so exciting to see him from day one and then find out he was going to be mine. In fact, I had my eye on him! That is an experience you don’t get with backyard breeding or rescuing irresponsibly bred dogs. Not that rescue dogs don’t need homes, but I wouldn’t change the way I did it. That is how ethical and responsible breeding is done.

There are so many hoops to jump through for him to be bred… And most of his litter mates didn’t even qualify as potential breeding stock and were contracted to be spayed or neutered as a part of the sale. It’s laughable for you to think I make a profit breeding him, given the expense involved in having him pointed, tested, and matched with a bitch he has no genetic crossover with. Just traveling to meet the ladies can be expensive, and it isn’t always successful. like humans dating, I guess I would never even consider having the breeding bitch. The costs there are insane.

Do you oppose dog shows such as Westminister? Do you believe in breed characteristics? If we were talking about horses instead of dogs, would you still be against intentional breeding?

@AdventureElephants Out of curiosity, what kind of dog was it that you wanted, and do you still have him or her? How did it all work out?

I don’t think @Coloma is “against intentional breeding” in general, as long as it’s done responsibly and humanly.

As with anything, people who do things the right way always have to jump through hoops. I don’t think anyone here has a problem with ethical breeders. It’s the back yard breeders and the puppy mills that have people concerned.

I, personally, don’t understand the allure wanting some sort of pure bred dog, unless they actually show them. It’s that desire that creates the demand for back yard breeders. People want, say, a pure bred German Shepherd but can’t afford the hundreds it takes to buy one, so they find “a guy” who sells them for fiddy bucks.

If a person just wants a dog, why can’t they settle for a mutt that meets their general requirements? When I got my Snuffy, my only requirements were: 1) Would get no bigger than a cocker Spaniel, and 2) Wasn’t a barky, yappy dog. When I went to pick her out I knew her mom was a Cocker, and out of all the litter, she was the quietest. And the most friendly. Perfect.

@AdventureElephants I respect your choices and I am also a fan of several purebred breeds, I am a hound lover and especially love Blood Hounds and Black & Tan Coonhounds, I also like GSDs and Siberian Huskies. I am not a fan of toy breeds. We have horses here, infact, a champion quarter horse cutting mare out of a long line of champion high earners but we are not going to breed her, too labor intensive, expensive to put the training on the foal and no guarantees of a quality home for the money we would ask.

Horses too suffer a lot of abandonment and neglect and just like dogs, this crosses the lines of price and pedigree. No, I am not opposed to dog shows or horse shows and understand breed standards, but, I still feel that over breeding of anything, and especially with the idea of making money is unethical. I have friends that just adopted a couple of BLM Mustang yearlings and I have had BLM burros. I am more interested in adopting horses than breeding them as well.

I feel that intentional breeding should be highly regulated and not something that just anyone can decide to do from an unethical perspective. The deplorable conditions of puppy mills attest to this philosophy.

@Dutchess_III Agree. It is the irresponsible backyard breeders and horrible puppy mill trade that is the biggest concern. Any breeder that is involved in these practices and the pet shop trade ought to be shut down. It is a pain and cruelty based industry. You can find 100’s of hideous puppy mill hoarders on youtube. The misery these animals endure is unfathomable.

I understand breeding for a specific breed, to do a specific job, like guarding, or herding, or to be a therapy dog or something. I don’t understand breeding dogs for no other reason than to have bragging rights. “This heah is a half wolf, half German shepherd! Stay away from him!”

Nope. I will go for the personality rather than the “breed” any day. From here on out, I would like a dog that has some German Shepherd strain, because Dakota has been the most awesome dog ever, but we’ll see. There are plenty of unspayed and unneutered shepherds running around that are going to need pups who need rescued.

@Coloma If we stopped all breeding, dogs would die out in about fifteen years. That’s not a long-term solution, which is what I am interested in. I understand you do support regulated breeding, however, and I am happy to see that. Responsible breeding is the only way to permanently influence the gene pool, creating dogs who are healthy both emotionally and physically. Any unregulated breeding is just taking unnecessary risk at the cost of dogs and their quality of life, and it gets us into trouble on a daily basis.

As to the idea of rescue groups in general: Sadly, I’ve seen hundreds of dogs who were “rescued” from Greek and Croatian streets. They do sometimes end up with caring people who work hard to teach them that their new lives are not scary. More often than not, though, they just get adopted by a well-meaning family who wants a dog. That’s paramount to a catastrophe for these animals. They are hand-shy, scared of loud noises, prone to resource guarding, skilled and enthusiastic hunters, and they often deeply distrust humans, especially men. They regularly need years of training before they can be happy as pet dogs, and it would be far kinder to let them continue to live a life more similar to the one they are familiar with.

To be clear: I do not care whether my dogs are pure-bred. I support breeders not because I want an attractive dog, but because I want a pain-free and stable one. Backyard breeders or accidental ones usually lack the resources to guarantee either.

@AdventureElephants I completely agree on the responsibility dog owners carry, making sure their dogs do not breed. I take care of unspayed male dogs all the time, and my little guy will soon be grown-up. I communicate with other dog owners before letting mine go and play, and when my old girl was in heat, she had to stay right by my side – or in the house. It’s just four weeks a year. I realize some dogs are very good at escaping, and/or can’t be controlled when off-leash. However, if free puppies are still around, unwanted litters are obviously way too big a problem to make allowances.

@Coloma is not advocating that we quit breeding dogs altogether. Her only point was, at this time in history, there are so many unwanted, accidental dogs out there for the taking that need to be cared for, there is just no excuse for breeding additional dogs, especially when people get them for no reason other than bragging rights.

The next time I go looking for a dog, I will be choosing from that pool of accidental dogs. I won’t be contributing to breeding of any kind. I can’t see any reason to. That isn’t to say that there are breeds I won’t steer away from, pitbulls and terriers, for example, just to name a couple.

Since childhood I’ve had many dogs in my world. Only two were purebred. One was a beagle in my childhood, who bit my sister on the face. The other is Dakota. All the rest were just family dogs. It’s the personality, not the breed, that is my only concern.

^ Dogs have way too short a lifespan to warrant a ban on responsible breeding, even temporarily. It makes more sense to work on lasting solutions instead of trying to fight symptoms. Abolishing irresponsible breeding will immediately take care of both the surplus of puppies, as well as the practice of acquiring and discarding dogs on a whim.

By supporting good breeders, you would be supporting people who attempt to eradicate hereditary health and behaviour issues. Nothing more, but nothing less, either.

The personality of a puppy is the result of his breeding – not breed, but breeding.

@longgone I do agree that not every rescue dog or cat is going to be suitable pet material given their life influences. I think that for those that are not rehab material that humane euthanasia is the highest choice. I strongly disagree with keeping feral cat colonies going. Spaying and neutering and releasing these animals back into the elements and dangers of street life is not a solution and just because someone comes by once a day with a pan of cheap cap cat food does not a quality life make.

Anyway, my point is that for all the animals world wide that need care and homes, it would take longer than 15 years for domestic pets to become scarce. If highly responsible people wish to continue breeding purebred dogs the excess should never exceed the demand as it does with homeless animals.

Also, given that most dogs reproduce 5, 6, 7, 8 or more offspring at a time, and most of these will not be high end breed specimens, the “pet quality” surplus is still part of the overall pet overpopulation problem. If breeding could be so selective as to only produce one or two perfect breed specimens at a time that would be one thing, but, if only 3 out of 8 puppies are going to make the show quality standard, well…that still leaves 5 inferior pups that might never find a home. Sure, they may be healthy inferiors if bred responsibly, but still contributing to excess.

^ Yes, euthanasia is the better option in some cases. A family on my street adopted a dog a few months ago. The dog is walked up the block regularly, and these trips terrify her. She has her tail tucked between her legs, and she jumps in fear at every person she encounters, every car she sees, and every dog she notices. Meanwhile, her owners walk her up to strange dogs, oblivious to the fact that an animal gasping, straining to get away, and drooling in fear may not want to “go say hi”.

This happens three times a day. Imagine living in such a state of panic day in, day out.

”[I]t would take longer than 15 years for domestic pets to become scarce.”

Pets, sure. Dogs – how? Almost all the surplus dogs today will be dead in 15 years.

If breeding was regulated, it would become much less appealing. The surplus is there because irresponsible breeding is legal and, often, lucrative. Healthy inferiors are awesome family pets. I am not arguing for every dog to have show dog status. I don’t even like dog shows. I think we should be concentrating on health, not looks.

@longgone I agree about health over beauty and breed standards for sure.
Also with not insisting that every animal, no matter how emotionally or physically damaged be saved at all costs. The “cost” is, as you say, a huge cost on the animals emotional and physical quality of life. My comment about pets, dogs, cats, both, not being eradicated in 15 years is on the global level not just the U.S. If the U.S. reached a zero population growth point for cats and dogs there would still be millions and millions being born world wide that would allow for imported animals to be shipped to the states for adoption.

If our country can’t get a handle on this issue after decades of spay/neuter advocacy and more attention to abuse, neglect and over population, 3rd world countries have little hope at all.
I know I sound idealistic but I have seen so many international rescue videos and groups and number of abandoned and abused animals is beyond staggering. Kinda like americas impoverished people. Compared to a lot of the world our poverty stricken are still have a much higher standard of living than in many countries.

@Coloma Got you. See, I think I am much more idealistic. I don’t just want animals who are alive, I want them to be healthy, and free from lives in panic mode. I have seen very, very few truly successful rescues from the poor countries you mention. It’s hard to accept, but most of the “rescued” dogs really do suffer greatly, especially when they are placed with owners who don’t know how to train them. I can see how young puppies may learn to deal with the culture shock. The others, while definitely in need of help, I would not ever put on a plane.

@longgone No one is advocating for a ban on responsible breeding. @Coloma advocates stricter control and laws on irresponsible breeding, and I agree.

And OMG. I got hit in the face with it today. Went to visit my husband’s daughter. They got a new dog. They are so proud. She held it in her arms to show it to me. I was a tiny, shivering, quaking, neurotic, short haired, pointy faced brown dog. I asked what kind of dog it was.
“A minpin!” she said proudly.
“A what?”
“A miniature pincher!”
I absently tried to pet the dog (who snapped at me so I quit) while thinking back on this thread….
“Where did you get her?”
“From a guy in XYZ town who breeds them.”
Still thinking on the this question, I asked something it would never occur to me to ask before….“How much did you pay for him?”
“A hundred and fifty dollars.”
OMFG!!!! $150!!!
And what was her reason for shelling out that money on something so useless? Nothing. Except for the fact she can tell people she has a “minpin.”

$150. No wonder people are breeding these abominations.

There should be a law.

In the mean time, I’ll continue to pick out my free dogs based on personality, as best I can judge it. No one stands to make a profit on accidental litters. I sure as hell won’t support it.

@Dutchess_III Yeah, the glut of these little toy breeds and designer dogs that are often just a mess of nerves and timid, ugh…poor things, but they are such awful little beasts. haha

@longgone I agree, a lot of these abused dogs from 3rd world countries wouldn’t make the grade to be shipped because of their emotional issues, but quite a few would. Puppies and very young dogs, cats, kittens would be rehab-able. Is that a word haha

Sorry to sound like a conservative, but why are we saving dogs from 3rd world countries when there are millions here in America that need saving?

@Dutchess_III Just one more option, of course we need to save animals here, I just meant that if the U.S. ever did get to a point where shelter animals and free pets were scarce the world will never run out of dogs and cats and kids to adopt.

I’ve had two dogs and my first was a puppy maltese. I put him on his back and put my hand on his neck. He avoided eye contact and looked away without struggling of even trying to take a nip. The second dog was a pound adoption and she came to us quickly. My husband held her on his lap like a baby with her belly up and she just surrendered quickly and looked away. She was a bit of a nipper but she was older and teething. She was only nipping to play. But I was able to train her out of that in two months.
Point is that aggressive dogs will not like going on their backs, much less held around the neck and will growl or struggle. Non aggressive dogs will surrender and see you as a dominant pack leader, so they will be easier to train. My first dog was totally a softy and would bark to protect only, but expected us to protect him. Made sense, he was only 10 lbs. And my second dog is only 18 lbs but defends us, or I should say me. My daughter has a dog that my dog plays with. Her dog loves to try to make out with me whenever I sit on the couch. So when ever I see her come at my face, I deflect. This weekend I deflected and leaned back and gave a surprise shout because she approached me when I wasn’t looking. My dog flew across the room in a rage and knocked her down and they both growled and fought for a second. There was no injury but then we shut them down quickly. After that, I noticed her dog wasn’t trying to get on me any more. They went back to playing with each other as if nothing had happened. My point is my first dog would’ve never done that. He would’ve barked only. My second dog was a little older and has already developed her personality a bit.

So your daughter has to keep in mind that a 3 month puppies personality may be easier to affect than a 1 year old. They are still trainable, but I think it’s harder to gauge what you may be getting. We just had a tragedy happen this week in the family. A family pit bull killed a baby that was sleeping. If your daughter has small children, she may want to try something that is not too much a threat to her kids, or at least make sure the children are never alone with a new larger dog who’s personality she may not be sure of.

@Pandora Noooo, really! How awful! Was the infant a family member or a friends/neighbors child? That is just horrible, I am so sorry! I have met some nice Pit Bulls but I would never own one and they are the number one breed for full out attack to to kill types.

Good advice, @Pandora. I will remember that. (Jesus….it attacked the baby for no reason? That is horrible. Why do you always hear these horror stories about pit bulls?)

We had had Dakota, who was full grown when we got her, for about 4 months, and decided to get her her own dog, so we found Dutchess. Dakota raised and trained Dutchess. Our back deck is open. If they go off the deck there is no fencing. Early on Dutchess went off the deck and, I kid you not, Dakota went after her and herded her back on the deck, then she barked in her face one time! Dutchess never did it again.

Another time Dutchess kept standing up and putting her feet on Rick. Rick kept saying, “No!” and pushing her off. The third time Dakota came out of now where, slapped Dutchess to the ground, then put her massive jaws around her throat and pinned her there!

Another time we were babysitting a friend’s long haired, tri-colored shepherd. This guy was HUGE, probably 3 inches taller than Dakota. His name was Sherman. He was a country dog. About 30 minutes after he got here our cat came in the house. Sherman went after the cat. In an instant Dakota was between him and the cat and Oh My God….she was IN his face, snarling and barking, all teeth bared, just like you see on TV. She was not playing. I was like, “What ARE YOU and what have you done with my dog??” Sherman backed the fuck down and never went after the cat again.

@Coloma I don’t know a whole lot about it because it is my nieces in-laws and she’s too upset to talk about it. It was her brother in laws baby and it happened at grandma’s house. No one was watching the baby because she was napping and from what I understand the dogs have never had an issue with being aggressive. They were all outside but someone must’ve let the pit bull in by accident or on purpose. No one knows yet. Next thing they know is they hear the baby cry out but it was too late. She was going to be 2 on Christmas. I think a lot is not being said yet because they are not to discuss what happened until this is all resolved on who is responsible for the tragedy.
But people don’t get that whether a dog means to or not, it can kill and infant or small child quickly in a momentary lapse of judgement. Jails are full of people who kill in a reactionary way, and yet people always think that dogs will always show good judgement.

Oh my god. What a nightmare. I don’t even have the words. Was it Gramma’s dog?

@Pandora I am so sorry, just tragic. :-(

@Pandora I’m so sorry to read that. It must be painful and confusing on many levels.

Confusing? It was a pit bull.

Painful? Unbelievably painful. I’d be in a waking nightmare for the rest of my life, which might not be that long. I just cant imagine.

@Dutchess_III You got hit in the face by bad breeding, though. The kind I do not support. And, remember – I did not say responsible breeding is the only way to get a good puppy. I said it is the only way to influence the gene-pool of all dogs, leading to healthier and happier companions.

@Pandora The dominance myth has been debunked because it was the result of questionable research. Holding a puppy on its back is a good indicator of how it will react to being restrained, though, as long as you are careful not to scare it.

I am extremely sorry about that little girl. What a horrible thing to go through.

Pretty sure it had to do with abuse as a puppy more than breeding @longgone. Locked in a narrow run and hosed down with a hose and now where to hide? He was pretty cool in other ways. He just got messed up.
And he’s the one who got hit in the face! Hard, I might add. And he’s daid now.

^ I was replying to the post about the MinPin :)

Oh, yeah. I posted about that shepherd that I smacked, on another thread, not here. Sry.

Yeah, that minpin was bad breeding. It was idiotic breeding. It’s the kind of breeding that should be illegal, and people who buy those dogs should be fined.

Agreed.

My question is, how can a person hold a dog like that, and see how scared it is, and feel it shaking, see how neurotic it is….and not see a problem?

I don’t know.

Is this the same family who used to slap their puppy for jumping up?

No. Different family.

Ah. That’s good.