If the 2008 presidential election is stollen, what will you do?

(sorry, can’t stop laughing at “stollen” and the jokes that could be made by the ramifications of that)

i will freak out! then i’ll try to do something.

Fruit stollen? Christmas stollen? Dresdener Stollen?

I absolutely do not accept your premise. That will not happen.

I refuse to accept the premise that either of the major parties are innocent of vote tampering… although I might allow that such tampering is done by over-zealous regional leadership, not dictated as a practice from the very top.

didn’t you know that the diebold voting machines already leaked the results?

Any other conspiracy theories for us?

Christmas-Stollen

stolen

@cheebdragon

What conspiracy theory??
Have you seen Hacking Democracy on HBO?
How about this?

@allengreen This seems to be a running theme for you. Do you think civil unrest is inevitable?

Any other solutions rob?

As long as they control the voting machines, how else do you plan on changing things??

Who, pray tell, are “they”?

You do know that you can volunteer to working at a polling location, right? (Meaning you’d be part of the “they”.) And that voter fraud isn’t limited to electronic ballot machines, which the majority of voting locations do not employ?

The solution is to devise an open system (electronic or otherwise) with measures put in place that presume fraud attempts in the first place.

People who assume that violence is inevitable, or that their rights should flow from the barrel of a gun, are a menace.

I really couldnt tell you who “they” are. I have my theories, but it sure as hell isnt the politicians that we are “voting” for. My guess is whoever is pushing for the one world governmnt.

I do know you can volunteer. I tried this election, but never got a response. Yes I do know that voter fraud isnt limited to electronic voting machines, but as with everything else, its the incrementalism, that starts out being 1/3 EVM, and Im sure eventually itll be more like 100%.

@chaosrob
Who said anything about violence?? If we stand up for our rights, who do you think would be violent first, us or our already extremely violent government?

If our founding fathers didnt stand up for their rights, do you think wed be “free?”

@chris6137
If our founding fathers didnt stand up for their rights, do you think wed be “free?”

Make up your mind, please. Either you’ve been snared in the plans of a secret one-world cabal, or the founding fathers liberated you in a blaze of glory and you’re pretty much able to do anything that pops into your head.

Wait! Can it be both?!

Notice how free is in quotations. I believe we have strayed from the principles that the country was founded on. I do not believe we are free. And I believe we will be living in a complete surveillance state very soon.

We have lost our sovereignty as a nation and soon as an individual.

@chris6137
We have lost our sovereignty as a nation and soon as an individual.

Can you please cite an example of the U.S. having lost the authority to govern itself?

WTO
NAFTA
CAFTA
GAFT
and soon SPP

And of course the media. A country can only govern itself if it is properly informed.

“Who, pray tell, are “they”?”

The word “they” appears nowhere in my question, so I don’t know who “they” that you refer to are….

as for “Any other conspiracy theories for us?”

I asked a strait question, no “conspiracy theories” from me, but if you have a “theory” please share it.

Please let me know what part of my question implies that “that violence is inevitable, or that their rights should flow from the barrel of a gun, are a menace.”......

I found that comment confusing, or maybe projection of the poster’s inner psychology….help me understand.

@allen… try to read all the quips in order. You’ll then find that the quip of mine you’re questioning was in direct reply to what chris6137 wrote immediately preceding. Same goes for the rest that you’re confused about. We’re discussing amongst ourselves… each quip isn’t necessarily a direct answer to your original question.

sorry, I can’t help myself sometimes :)

The election is already stolen. The following is a presentation by Greg Palast
Really great Video (work/home safe)

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/327.html

@chris6137

WTO
NAFTA
CAFTA
GAFT
and soon SPP

treaty |ˈtrētē|
noun ( pl. -ties)
a formally concluded and ratified agreement between countries.

We get something for each of the things we give. That’s the nature of these agreements. We elect people to enter into these agreements on our behalf, to get these things for the community. The very fact that we consent and get something in exchange validates our sovereignty, not negates it. If you don’t like what you get, elect people who will seek out what you want, but complaining that treaties somehow compromise you as a citizen makes no sense at all.

“We get something for each of the things we give.”

Yeah, we get Walmart jobs and they get our high paying and middle class jobs.

@allengreen Exactly my point. If you’re not happy with the deal, elect an official who will revisit it to your satisfaction.

I don’t know about you, @allen, but I’m in the top 1% of wealthiest people in the world!

You, yes you, can indeed have a high paying job. In this country, where hard work (and optionally, education) can make a billionaire, I’d think we can find different things to work on other than people’s sense of entitlement.

how can we elect someone we are happy with if there is no evidence or paper trail that our vote gets counted?

Do the people of Florida and Ohio who stood in line for 1 voting machine for 12 hours in poor counties, and then forced to fill a provisional ballot, deserve to be counted? If they are not counted how can we elect someone we are happy with?

@allengreen I agree with you that the voting system should be auditable. Re: your comment, are you in possession of any credible evidence that a crime has taken place? If so, I’d suggest you share it with the appropriate authorities and as many online and mainstream media outlets as possible.

” top 1% of wealthiest people in the world!”—and you have accomplished this 100% of your own doing without a penny from parents, no connections, and of only your labor? The zip code your were born in offered you no benifits, and you pulled yourself up to the 1% totally of your own volition.

Congratulations, @rob—you da man!

Hope this helps @chaosrob

Ohio poll workers convicted
From the Associated Press
January 25, 2007

CLEVELAND—Two election workers were convicted Wednesday of rigging arecount of the 2004 presidential election to avoid a more thorough review in Ohio’s most populous county.

Jacqueline Maiden, elections coordinator of the Cuyahoga County Elections Board, and ballot manager Kathleen Dreamer each were convicted of a felony count of negligent misconduct by an elections employee.

They also were convicted of one misdemeanor count each of failure to perform their duty as elections employees.

1. Two Cuyahoga County, Ohio, Election Officials Convicted of Felony and Misdemeanor for 2004 Election; – Read more.
2. TWO OHIO ELECTION OFFICIALS CONVICTED FOR RIGGING 2004 PRESIDENTIAL RECOUNT!
Will be Questioned by Special Prosecutor Before Sentencing to Learn if Higher Ups Involved
RELATED: Kerry Drops Out of 2008 Race. In Advance This Time.
FULL STORY: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4071
3. http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2007/2362

@allengreen Okay, first let me savor the irony of citing the horrible, suspect, corrupt “MSM” as your source of evidence. Second, well, news articles aren’t usually regarded as evidence of anything by a court. Third, if you take these articles as read, they seem to indicate that attempts at perverting an election were prevented and the perpetrators caught and punished. The system appears to be working. Where’s the problem here?

@allengreen; remember that you are the new guy on the block; try to get a sense of what a mature and non-strident discussion is..which is what this collective tries to do. We often disagree but, by and large, manage it without too much mud-slinging. Unless, of course, we get beyond exasperated.

Those articles are from AP, and can be pulled on Lexus Nexus (spelled wrong) and public court records.

If folks were prevented from voting, and being counted, and the wrong person ends up President——did the system work? Just because some folks got convicted years later, this is evidence of a non working system, I beleive. (sp)?

“manage it without too much mud-slinging”,

Please show me where I am slinging mud? an example?

I am sorry to come across as slinging mud, or attacking persons.

I need a walk and a change of pace..Perhaps I’ll empty the litter box and then watch the cat chase butterflies.

@allen, other than sacrificing their own wants and needs to give us kids as much as they could, no, my folks didn’t really give me much of a leg up. Grew up in rural SC. Lived in a trailer park without A/C… but I did have an Atari 2600.

I paid my own way thru college early on by working 3 part time jobs (waiter, delivery, etc.). One semester, I sold donuts door-to-door just so I could buy textbooks. Then later worked a full-time, white collar job 60 hours a week (even 2nd shift for a couple of months… which is a royal PITA when you have a 7:45am class).

And here’s the thing… it happens every single doggone day in the U.S. The opportunities we have here are rarely duplicated elsewhere. Why is it, do ya think, that so many people are trying to get to the U.S., legally or not? Because, compared to much of the rest of the world, it is awesome here.

Man, stop whining (by proxy) and put some effort into doing your own thing.

Ugh… btw… I explained all that not to talk about how great I am. I’m not.

I’m of average intelligence and got mediocre grades in school. I’m in the top 1% of wealthiest people in the world because anyone who makes more than US $47,000 a year is in the top 1%. (In 2006, the median U.S. household income was $48,201 a year).

I hope you understand therefore, I’m not bragging here. I’m trying to illustrate that life in America is something that we’re fortunate to have and should be thankful for.

People who whine and point to all those mean rich people just make me sick. You want some? Go get it!

at robmandu@ Not being the topic starter I can’t speak for him, but I just wanted to chime in.

I don’t think allengreen is against being wealthy, he is against people abusing power. And it so happens the people in power are wealthy (as a result of their power?). As far as I can tell, the main objectives of most wealthy powerful people is to A.) Maintain Power, and B.) Maintain wealth.

This topic I believe is asking “If the people in power break laws, constitutions, and your trust to hold onto their power what are you willing to do about it?”.

You say that we should work our way through the system; I would say that’s a fine way to do it… if it worked. You look at England, Tony Blair handing his power over to his friend… no election, no decision by the people. I see here in Canada, Stephen Harper not giving a damn about what the people of Canada say… something like 36% of Canadians voted for him and now morality for which we stood is going out the window. The United States, there is well documented proof of election fraud in the first election of G.W.B.

These people have taken control and are not releasing it back into the commons where it belongs. I think this goes beyond making a life for yourself… you can’t make a life for yourself without freedom.

:o That went longer than I wanted, I apologise

@btko, he very well might intend that… it would be in line with the intention of the original question. and which I’ve certainly strayed way far off of.

However, I was addressing allen‘s statement where he talked about treaty negotiations, simplified as: Yeah, we get Walmart jobs and they get our high paying and middle class jobs.

To me, it smacked of despair that he believes people in this country are increasingly unable to make a decent wage, let alone excel into wealth.

If someone else has to explain what you meant, you have stated it badly. Or, that is what I used to tell my students. “What are you trying to say,” I would ask. On hearing the answer, I would then suggest they write that.

Many are explaining what ag meant. That is his job.

True, he must speak for himself.
He does have point in one way though. Not all treaties are good, and often times good treaties are ignored (Kyoto, Cluster Bomb limitations, etc.) For example:

You look at the World Bank and IMF – they require of countries they are about to loan to to open up to western markets and allow western companies set up shop. I think it was Zimbabwe… the IMF told the countries leaders “You must charge a user-fee at your public schools if you want to get a loan from us”. That certainly doesn’t sound like a good treaty to me. I am probably over simplifying it but you perhaps see my point?

very interesting discussion…I am some what in awe of this community. Deep thinkers and good writers.

I expressed an opinion about the effects of the treaties, that I believe them to be harmful to the labor force, and real wages have not increased, with inflation have decreased since 1970’s.

I do believe, and maybe I contributed to the origional question being subverted.

Fact is, we have a terrible election system, and a recent history of questionable election results, and no verifiable paper trail.

Here is what I mean in the form of a quesiton: Are we Americans going to bend over and take it, it this 2008 election is obviously skewed?

To use the words of btko, “If the people in power break laws, constitutions, and your trust to hold onto their power what are you willing to do about it?”.

@rob, when you said, top 1%, i though you meant in the US, not the world——big difference.

At 125k, I still felt poor.

The CEO of Diabold, who made the voting machines used in Ohio, GUARANTEED President Bush a win. Code can be written into those machines that would, for instance, change every third vote for candidate A…and ever other vote for 3rd party candidate D…to show they voted for candidate B….then, when the polls closed, erase itself like it was never there. Until and unless there are electronic machines leaving a paper trail, I’ll vote absentee.

The electronic ones I’ve voted on provided a paper receipt, which gets dropped off. I guess you’ll need to check your local district to see what’s available.