Can we do without Nationalism?

Not as long as we have unbridled procreation, IMHO.

As long as mankind continues to multiply unchecked and compete with each other for limited resources, there will be nationalism, radical religion and, as a result, war.

Most of the population believes in a us vs. them mentality. You would have to be selfless to overcome it. (Or be a Canadian :p)

As long as people refuse to think for themselves we will have it.

Yes. What you’re referring to is called communism.

And I don’t mean China or the USSR.

Sure. I’m chock full o’ nationalism for the USA, but my version is the positive values I was raised with, which have nothing at all to do with imperialism or fascist BS.

Liberty, justice, freedom, equality, land o’ the free, due process of law, separation of church and state, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, land of opportunity… our national parks, having been mostly the good guys in World War 2… lots of stuff.

I think there are some reasons for borders and separate communities with separate laws and customs. In fact, I think the USA might do well to stop trying to have so many arguments at the Federal level, and instead have more regional cultural and legal differences between the states, because there are clearly some deep disagreements, and we’ve got space to let things go differently in different places. Though there do start to be problems when people want to control each others’ rights, not just have things go a certain way for themselves.

As @Zaku implies, it’s possible to be Nationalist without being a dick.

Now, if you followed up with something along the lines of, “Can Americans stop being dicks?”, I’d say no. Many other cultures could pull it off, and some throughout history have, but our nation’s history is pretty much built on being a dick; first to the natives, then to the Brits, then to our neighbors to the South, then Spain, Germany (twice), Korea, Vietnam, a few since, a lot in between…. basically it’s so intrinsic in our society that we probably never will do away with Nationalism.

The simple answer is “no”. Nationalism will always exist as long as people are free and aware of identity.

There’s a much longer psychological answer about recognition of self and tribe, but I don’t have the time to write it,

I always think of myself as being a person with patriotism to the US, not Nationalism. I won’t fight or follow blindly. However, what I have being an American doesn’t exist in all countries, so I care about it, am moved by it (why people sometimes tear up during the national anthem) and care about preserving it. If my country went off the rails doing crazy, abusive, genocidal acts I would not be so patriotic or nationalistic or brainwashed to assume my leaders are absolutely right without question in what they do, or how they protect our citizens.

The day there is no patriotism is the world is the day that maybe all borders are open and freedom and equality rings throughout the world.

Overtime perhaps. However it will take decades of multicultural intergrations for this to take full effect.

Nationalism is a newer iteration of tribalism. It is possible for humanity to exist without either, but it will take some evolution of our mindsets to achieve.

I have been lucky to have lived in 7 different countries on 4 different continents. I gave up jingoistic nationalism many decades ago. I happily take part in the civic life of my country, but I have no illusions about its limitations.

I sincerely hope we can take strides in my lifetime to grow past nationalism. Perhaps the EU is the first breath of this movement.

^ And we are seeing how well the EU is going these days.

Forced integration doesn’t work. Why should Germany shoulder the effects of the Greek’s refusal to put in an honest workday?

Different peoples are different. Borders should allow this.

I am an American Nationalist.

But the emotion I feel is not so much pride, but humble gratitude.

@SecondHandStoke “Why should Germany shoulder the effects of the Greek’s refusal to put in an honest workday?”

What “refusal” is this when Greeks work more hours than most developed nations in the world?

I think only the workaholic South Koreans are above them.

@Hawaii_Jake You make me wonder if people must have some sort of group identity, maybe a certain number of groups we identify with. I mean as a human trait, much like humans generally need some sort if social interaction to be well.

I once asked a Q about what groups you (jellies) personally identify with. I assume my answer was something like: female, Jewish, American. Those are probably might too 3 if I answer today. I could extend it a couple more and add married, and, hmmm, I don’t even have another one come to mind right now. I know there are other groups I “fit” in, but they aren’t an active part of my identity.

Maybe people can drop their national identity more easily if they have other identities that play a much more prominent role.

I do think traveling a lot, living in different countries, and living in very diverse places helps shed country boundaries in the mind also. I’m just thinking out loud about what you wrote and how the human mind groups things. We seem predisposed to group things and people to be able to handle and sort information.

@JLeslie We are indeed predisposed to groups. The cultural anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss posited one of the most famous theories of the origins of our social necessities. He theorized our most basic unit of society is made up of 4 individuals: a husband, a wife, a child, and the wife’s brother. He found studying smaller societies that the brother serves to provide an Other to the family unit. In some smaller societies, the brother acts friendly to the couple, and in others, he is antagonistic to the husband, serving as a counterpoint.

As social animals, we seem to need to create alliances and enemies. I mean that as written. We create both. We create alliances to give us assistance with the enemies whom we also create.

Groups are another good example. I will tell you what I’m doing at work at the moment. I am leading a training class that is 3 weeks long. There are 12 trainees, and they are working very well together. However, there is one individual who is often difficult to get along with. He has to be closely monitored and kept in line in order not to disrupt the group’s learning.

I had a friend once tell me, “There’s always one.” She meant in any group there is always one individual who will stick out for one reason or another. Those reasons may be good or not so good.

@SecondHandStoke I agree that integration can cause problems. The South and rural areas of the Midwest and Southwest have no interest in actually being part of America except when it suits them (they can’t pay their own bills; they rely a lot on taxpayer money from the West coast and Northeast), and trying to keep them in the union is more trouble and expense than it’s really worth.

I’m a bit of an American nationalist myself, and what I feel is more embarrassment and shame because so many here would call me un-American because I’m not a bible-thumping racist xenophobe.

@Hawaii_Jake We are drifting a little off topic, but I find the brother you spoke of above extremely interesting. My inlaws always have to be angry or putting down someone in the family. It’s so blatant with them. I don’t think my family does this in such an extreme way, maybe I’m blind to it. I always thought they out down people to make themselves feel better. I saw it as an insecurity.

Circling back to the Q, if we have to have enemies and allies, it reinforces nationalism or patriotism. What a shame.

I wonder if certain groups, cultures, ethnicities, education level, liberal, democrat, etc., are more able to not think so much about groups and boundaries. Just one week ago a conservative friend of mine complained that liberals complain about racism and alike, but liberals put people into groups way more than conservatives. I will say that when I lived in the south most of my conservative friends had an incredible absence of talking about different groups while in mixed company. It was noticeable to me.

@JLeslie, we’re not drifting. It’s a line of discussion following directly from my first response to the OP in this thread.

I view nationalism as a form of tribalism. On another level, it’s simply another way for us humans to recognize the Other.

What you mentioned about groups is interesting. I don’t have any anecdotal evidence either way.

I can tell you that it is possible to live in a pluralistic society amiably for the most part. We do it here in Hawaii. We have no ethnic majority here. It’s a very mixed society. We certainly have problems. There’s homelessness, poverty, and crime. We also have a great deal of amicability. I ride the bus to and from work, and we are a good group on the bus. It’s quiet 99% of the time. We pick up after each other on the bus. We smile at each other. We greet each other. There’s very little disagreeability between passengers. My experience on the bus is in direct contrast to what I read from friends on the mainland.

I bring up that information as a way of saying that I think it’s possible for people from many different backgrounds to live together and get along well.

@Hawaii_Jake I grew up in very diverse circumstances too. My point was I think once we have sufficient group identity, we don’t worry about having more. I named the three that come to my mind for myself first. Some people I know might identify strongly with their profession, doctor, female, mother. Someone else might be Christian, Texan, male. Another person, gay, male, lawyer. Maybe, if we have sufficient identity with groups that make us feel good, we don’t worry about acquiring more.

I think how society views us matters too; our immediate community and greater society. My Jewish identity grew when I realized society would view me as Jewish no matter what I did. Then I became more interested in understanding that part of me.

Moreover, our identity can motivate us. That tiger mom author wrote a book about how certain ethnic groups in America are very successful. She argues through her research that one part of the success is having a strong ethnic identity which creates a strong superiority complex while at the same time having an inferiority complex, the last she names is a strong ability for impulse control. The reason I mention it is because her focus was on ethnic superiority and inferiority, but maybe it works for other minority groups also and identifying with your nation matters less for success. Less as a central force for identity, happiness, and prosperity.