Who is worse. Trump or his protesters?

You mean his followers, right?

He is about as opposite of libertarian as you can get.

Trump is worse.

Who are these violent protesters?

Many people hae been showing up on the campaign trail to prevent him speaking. Most recently California where he had to walk across the highway due to protesters. I believe barriers were knocked over & police are having to intercede as well.

Evil should be protested. History looks poorly upon the people who stood idly by while Hitler came to power. I think it’s great that people are protesting.

@Mariah I tend to agree protesting is a good thing. As a child of the 70’s I was raised to admire peaceful protests. This is some violent protesting a Presidential candidate that may be an elected official, which means intefering in an election & putting secret service & law enforcement in danger.

You leave out a third contingent: his violent followers, who viciously attack people for no reason except the color of their skin. And all encouraged by Trump from his pulpit.

@zenvelo Agreed. It’s an odd situation. But political candidates, by law, must all be given the opportunity to campaign. Locally we had a huge backwoods racist campaign with ugly commercials that legally had to be aired. It happens more often than most people realize but they usually lose elections.

Let me just verify here. Trump rallies have been earmarked by violence perpetrated BY Drumpf followers AGAINST peaceful, just-standing-there-holding-signs protesters, and yet you only have a problem NOW, and your problem is not the violence directed AGAINST actual protesters, but rather the protesters have earned your ire and derision because he’s a presidential candidate?and blah blah blah interfering in an election? What? Did I get that right?
Your reference to a backwoods campaign is a non sequitur. Certainly proves nothing concerning the Drumpf campaign.
He“speaks his mind”? He mouths words phonetically and blathers flow of consciousness style and worries about our perception of him and his sexual capabilities and endowments. He does not tell it like it is. He lies and says what he knows people want to hear.
He has worldwide contacts? So does syphillis. That means what? He knows nothing of kingcraft or statesmanship. That alone should be enough to keep him out of the running for this office.

I think the frustration with Trump is mounting quickly. Nobody took him seriously early enough to turn the tide and keep him from being the Republican nominee.
It’s not right, but it’s understandable that some people are turning to violence. Nothing else has worked. The man is the Reality TV version of a presidential candidate, and it gets more serious by the day. Trump is finally reaping what he’s been sowing. Disrespect for everyone but disenfranchised whites leaves you with a hell of a lot of enemies. Remember George Wallace?
Two candidates with negatives over 50%.
The whole thing disgusts me.

@Jak Trump himself has said some thing’s that could be considered hatespeak. Trump supporters have done violence to Trump protesters. The protesters are now instigating the violence before Trump arrives or speaks. I’m only asking who you all consider as the worse perpetrator. And I was pointing out he has not legally done anything wrong as far as I know, because all campaigns must be allowed by law~hateful or not.

Your question is unquantifiable. What are you looking for? A group of people commit atrocities in the name of someone. How do you portion blame? Is Charles Manson responsible for Susan Atkins’ brutal murder of an eight months pregnant woman?

@Jak Actually many people did blame Manson as an older charismatic leader who led young people into mayhem. I am simply asking who you’d blame for the current violence that revolves around this candidate. If he weren’t so popular with some he already would be out of the race like the others.

@ibstubro Exactly right! He is doing it purposely though which is mind~boggling. What could his supporters possibly love about bashing women, Mexicans, all Muslims, etc? Playing on white peoples fears is all I can believe. It’s sad so many are falling for it. As for myself, I still believe in personal responsibility and believe the old white man who attacked the black man at the beginning should be jailed as well as those smashing windows at his CA location in protest. Equal justice.

you asked which is worse. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions. But allow me briefly reference I believe The revelation to St John; when asked how to reconize the bad guys to not follow he was told that if the world listens to him, he is not who you want, he works for the adversary. God sent the quiet one that no one listens to. .....sound like anybody in the race that you know of?

What Jak and Mariah said.

Well the “violence” involved wasn’t exactly lethal. In the end the issue is about whether or not the prospect of Trump as President is worthy of protest. With that in mind, what do you suppose the chances are that a prosecutor in San Francisco or San Mateo county for that matter is going to mount a case against the participants? What are the chances of seating a jury with even a glimmer of hope for a conviction? It would surprise me if so much as a public nuisance charge is carried to conclusion here.

Trump has a game plan with his campaign….most of the manic protestors if not all the protestors are clueless idiots…ask anyone of them to answer honestly why and for what specific reason are they protesting against Trump and they can’t offer up a legit reasonable answer why.

Clueless idiots is open for debate. But considering the venues, I would have been rather surprised and very disappointed had Donald been allowed to pass through here “unchallenged”. As it is, the big shot crawling through mud and sneaking through the back door like an undocumented immigrant is rather satisfying. Even he himself was struck by the irony of it. And regardless of the outcome of his campaign, we all benefit considerably from any sort of humbling dealt Mr. Trump and his exploded notions of himself.

Obviously there is no feasible excuse for violence but I place the ultimate responsibility at Trump’s feet. If he were not spouting racism and xenophobia, people wouldn’t be protesting. And if he had not been egging on his violent supporters, I doubt things would have turned as ugly as they have.

BTW: they are not interfering with an election, they are interfering with hate speech. The election will still take place.

And Trump is not being silenced either. A man with his wealth and power has the means to take out full page ads with the text of his speech in every newspaper in the country. He’s doing more than just fine in “getting his message out” The media publicize his every word and fart. He’s not some poor powerless little thing being silenced. People hear him loud and clear. That’s the problem.

I prefer Joy Behar’s comment about hate speech: “The best response to hate speech is MORE SPEECH”

Trump.
I can at least empathize with his protesters.

So called “hate speech” aka speech you disagree with or misunderstand, is still speech and is Constitutionally protected.

But hey, why not throw out the rule book to satisfy your need to NEVER hear something you don’t like or challenges your sense of self righteousness.

Lol, freedom of speech just means the government can’t stop you from saying shit. Doesn’t mean private citizens have tolerate a bid for president from someone who can’t seem to stop saying racism and sexist shit.

I see the protests as pretty pathetic. They call for a protest and get maybe 100 or so protesters. Then in order to make the group seem bigger, they scream and shout, tear down barriers, throw rocks and bottles, shut down roadways, and beat people up. The net result is that Trump gets more media coverage and the protesters become the unruly mob they’ve always been. If they follow the typical trend, next they will be calling for a boycott. Maybe they’ll boycott Doral, that should be quite effective.

@Mariah

Thank you for proving my point.

Explain what rulebook is being thrown out? Nobody is violating Trump’s freedom of speech by protesting him.

Also, there is a gigantic difference between “not wanting to hear things that challenge you” and being hunky dory with bigotry making its way into the WHITE HOUSE.

Racism and sexism are not merely “speech I disagree with,” they’re bigotry.

Anyway, this thread isn’t about this, so I should leave before my hot head derails it.

It is quite funny (and completely predictable), that rightwingers attack, both verbally and physically, peaceful protesters, instead of the republican neonazis on their way to power.

The violence wouldn’t have gotten to that level if it wasn’t for Drumpf first inciting violence in his rallies. You get what you give. If he wanted to have rallies without violence all he had to do was condemn instead of cheer his violent followers. He lead that parade so he has no right to complain. Nor should anyone else complain. When it’s his followers doing the misdeeds, he says his followers are passionate people. Well I will say his protesters are also passionate people.
So Drumpf is worst since he started it all. In the world exist something called consequences. He’s a grown a—man. He should’ve realized the consequences for inciting his violent followers. Ying and yang.

@Pandora Except, except that many people are hearing exactly what they’e waiting to hear. So that they can then act in the manner in which they’ve been wanting to act. One cannot blame only Mr Drumpf. I do no listen to his yammeings and do not act on them, that is my choice. If he had only people like me to support him he would never even be on the news. So individuals are choosing to act in a certain manner with what they feel to be encouagement, not only by Mr Drumpf, but by the idea that there are other like minded individuals to support and cheer on their actions. They want to strike out and hurt people, like an attack dog snarling at the end of a leash.

@Mariah

“Also, there is a gigantic difference between “not wanting to hear things that challenge you” and being hunky dory with bigotry making its way into the WHITE HOUSE.”

It would seen there is a double standard regarding controversial speech if President Obama’s first inauguration is any indication.

Trump. He started it all when he announced his candidacy.

That said, I have no sympathy for violent protestation and I pity his followers,

The protestors who are disrupting his events and instigating violence are worse.

I’m all for peaceful protesting. They can picket outside the venue. Try to talk to people going to the event. Even chant their hate before the event starts. But, being disruptive during the event to purposely start something is not ok in my book.

@JLeslie
Nice victim blaming

@ragingloli I’m not victim blaming. People are going in and disrupting planned events they can protest outside, but they shouldn’t be interrupting the event when it is going on, and they are doing just that. How are the protesters victims? Because they were escorted out? Because Trump might have said hit the guy and I’ll pay the legal bills, because he was acting up? Trump is wrong saying that, but the protester is wrong too. Plus, I don’t take Trump seriously when he says stupid shit like that, although I do expect him to not say such things. He is wrong, because there are stupid people who will feel they can actually hit someone else and Trump will pay.

Still, let’s look at who is starting the disruption. Trump needs to be better, he’s a bit of a lose cannon, but a lot of these protests are organized. That means there is a collective of people planning the disruptions and hoping for attention. Many hope for negative attention. It’s all disgusting. They aren’t victims, they are manipulating the event. Are they actually getting hurt by security or police when asked to stop or when removed? I don’t think so. Even that reporter who complained she was hurt somehow, most reporters said that is par for the course at any event like that and that she was being ridiculous. Journalists known to lean liberal called her out on it.

@JLeslie
Yes, you are victim blaming.
Those protesters have a right to protest.
What you are doing, is saying “they had it coming”, when they get physically assaulted by trump supporters, just because they had the gall to peacefully protest.
Not only that, you maliciously try to spin their protest into “intentionally provoking violence”.
Like women who do not dress in a burka are just asking to be raped.

You really need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

@ragingloli I never said they had it coming. Where did I say that? No one should be violent against anybody. As far as I know Trump has not actually been violent against anyone. Not him or anyone who is on his payroll.

@JLeslie Trump encouraged violence during the early days of his campaign. This is the very reason why people are protesting him.

^^I realize he said stupid things encouraging violence. I don’t think most protesters are actually protesting that specifically, but maybe some are. So what? That doesn’t change that protesting should be done in a civilized manner.

Trump is no winner, I’m not saying everything he did is just fine. I’m saying, if you ask me, the protesters who are causing a ruckus inside the venues bother me more. If I have to choose. First, I consider myself a liberal on most fronts, I’m a registered Democrat my entire voting life, and I don’t appreciate being represented by people drumming up trouble. Not all protestors are bad. I have no problem with people protesting outside of venues, trying to talk to attendees, holding signs, even chanting before Trump starts doing his schtick. I’m all for their right to free speech and standing on public space.

If someone was disrupting Oprah giving a speech, don’t you think they would be asked to be quiet or escorted out?

If everyone thinks Trump was inciting riots and violence then petition to have him brought up
on charges.

@ragingloli

Would you please show is your proof that it has been Trump supporters exclusively that have incited violence?

You are smarter than this. Remember that everything Trump utters is broadcast through a sound amplification system and is captured on video.

Not the case with every hot headed protestor.

@SecondHandStoke
How about you prove that there is not an invisible teapot orbiting mars?

Just for the record, what Trump actually said was: “So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them,”. That doesn’t seem all that unreasonable. I would take it a step further and say if you see anyone getting ready to throw anything, take them down. Seems like some are willing to justify anything to make a political point. The end does not justify the means and these protesters have proven they are williing to throw anything at anybody in the name of protesting.

The protesters, both sides. They are just lemmings who should know that their bodies are just being used as kindling to fan the political flames. Trump is not evil folks, he is just playing his game by being a belligerent asshole. It’s what he knows how to do. Comparing him to Hiltler is just like when obama was running and the religious right viewed him as the anti-christ.

@ragingloli

Yes, perhaps the onus lies upon me to present proof, but I have not asked you to prove a negative.

I get the feeling from many of the posts above that plenty of people sincerely believe that Trump and his supporters are to blame for altercations and the opposing side are nothing but innocent victims.

I have merely suggested that this is in fact not the case.

Also, remember kids, heckling and disrupting a speech from inside the venue is not the same as peaceful protesting outside of such.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Oh, I must’ve missed it when Obama ran his campaign on being racists and talked about bombing people and killing their women and children and when he cheered his fans for beating up on other people and said he will pay for their lawyer. Where the hell was I?
I agree he is playing a game but Russian Roulette is also a game. He is playing Russian Roulette with the mentally disturbed and shouldn’t be surprised if someone wanted to turn the rules against him. If you are going to play, then don’t be surprised what you get with playing with a bunch of nut jobs. There is a reason why the saying, “Tit, for tat”, exists. If he isn’t smart enough to figure that he shouldn’t play with dynamite (hate speech), then maybe running the country isn’t for him since he will be playing with our nuclear arms. Anyone running for President should at least know the very real consequences of their words. He’s not running for school president. He’s running for President of a nation with very serious armed forces
He has not come out and said that he is playing a game. Well I don’t think of the Presidency as a game. So I have no choice to accept his opinions as they are his truth. As a voter, and as an American, I feel no sympathy for narcissistic pigs.

Violent people, regardless of what side they fall on, are to blame. Trump is to blame for inciting and encouraging violence. Protesters, just normal people who protest Trump – regardless of whether or not it’s inside or outside of one of his rallies – are not to blame at all. People seem to forget that the entire point of protesting is to disrupt something negative to inspire positive change, or to avoid something else even more negative from taking place.

The point of a protest is not to merely stand on the sidelines and say “this is not something I’m okay with, listen to me complain”. It is to literally stand up and say I will not ALLOW this to happen. Which is where, when physical force is used, it becomes unacceptable. But by all means, disrupt a man’s rally who spreads hatred in every sense – to women, to anyone who isn’t white, to physically and mentally disabled people, to gay people – to the point that said rally can’t even take place. They have every right to stop him from entering the white house, where he would have even more influence, where he could potentially screw things up on a global scale.

Protests aren’t pretty things to look at. They happen to actually make a difference, so again, I hope Trump protesters do cause severe disruption – as long as they aren’t violent. It is the entire point.

@DrasticDreamer The Great March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his famous I Have a Dream speech was planned, coordinated, they worked with local authorities like so many other protest movements. Sit-ins do not help to provoke violence or interrupt the speeches of others. Picketing, especially with the media coverage out there today, can get attention. There are other ways to get attention.

@Pandora What are you ranting about. You think I support the guy? Did I not just call him a belligerent asshole or were you just waiting for a supporter to chime in just so you could spew and project your own hate?

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’ll let you know when I’m ranting. And I didn’t take it that you liked the man. I was replying to your comment here. Comparing him to Hiltler is just like when obama was running and the religious right viewed him as the anti-christ.
But notice that I agreed that he was probably playing a game. I just don’t see it as a justifiable excuse to remove him from personal responsibility. He is the catalyst in the situation.

I just read this, this morning. Absolutely horrifying what ends Trump supporters go to to defend that awful corrupt man.

@NerdyKeith That to me just shows how violent people can be. Supporters and protesters. You don’t think Trump would actually approve of beating up that woman do you?

You’d do well to believe it and more. I fail to understand your reluctance to think Ill of this male hominid. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn he paid the people to hurt her. As Jane Austen said; and I’m paraphrasing here, she would never again put limits on the impertinence of an impertinent man. Stop thinking of what he would and would not do in terms of yours and realize he has different feelings, limits and motivations than you. What would he NOT dare, who has dared so much already?

^^He’s going to pay to hurt some woman? He can pay to buy up air time and squeeze out negative ads, and do much worse. He doesn’t seem to be doing that. Sorry, the fact is, even if he did pay for the violence, you still have a shitload of people voting for him. You can’t ignore that. Not me, I’m not voting for him, but a lot of people are, and most of them are not hateful and violent. Not the ones I know. I disagree with them a lot, but they aren’t thugs.

If you want to understand the attraction to Trump, maybe you don’t care about that, which is fine, then you need to be open to the idea that it’s not all about hating minority groups. Not all of his supporters hate minorities. They ignore the crazy shit he has said. They aren’t focused on it.

I don’t know one intelligent person who is happy to vote for Trump. The smart ones are reluctant and not happy about it, but they are not going to vote for a Democrat. The others are ignorant, want a wall and are afraid to lose their guns or have men dressed as women in the bathroom with their little children.

@JLeslie Well I would hope not. But it is very common for many supporters of politicians such as Trump, to almost give them a god like status. And we all know how extremists react when you offend their God.

But then again I wouldn’t totally put it past Trump that he wouldn’t find some sort of justification for the actions that are occurring. I expect the unexpected with him.

Justification and crazy supporters on the loose are not the same as Trump hiring them. I do think he needs to stand up an condemn the actions.

@JLeslie What are you talking about? I told you that it is possibe that he paid someone to go hurt that woman.You indicated that you did not believe it, then you said even if he did that there are still a lot of people voting for him. What? That was not the issue. I don’t know how to make it any plainer. “He’s going to pay to hurt some woman? He can pay to buy up air time and squeeze out negative ads, and do much worse. He doesn’t seem to be doing that. Sorry, the fact is, even if he did pay for the violence, you still have a shitload of people voting for him.”
So, like I said, I fail to understand your reluctance to think ill of this homo sapien. You constantly blame the protesters who are exercising their civil rights and , I might add, their civic duty, who are NOT in any way deserving to be so ridiculously and shamefully mistreated.
I don’t understand it but I also don’t care. You don’t need to explain to me his appeal. I understand it far better than you and I understand exactly to whom his appeal runs so deep and why. I promise you, you do not want these people running your country.Not racists? You’re wrong. Not homophobes? Wrong again. You will not believe until you see it, and I hope that you do not. I will continue to believe in Bernie Sanders until all hope is gone. But you need to understand that your comprehension of this process is inadequate to understanding. I don’t know if it is deliberate obtuseness or something without remedy, but your demonstration of incomprehension is consistent and dismaying.
If nothing else, you must admit that out of the millions voting for this schmuck, the percentage that you know personally is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1%. So to stand there and say; “Well all his supporters that I know aren’t like that.” is the height of absurdity.
And go ahead on and think that he needs to condemn “the actions”, I’m sure that will help.

@Jak Can I have some of what you are smoking? Have you even seen a Trump rally lately? It is packed with anti Trump crazed animals busting up all sorts of shit. You will probably deny it didn’t happen, but I live in Chicago and the douchebag loons trashed the Chicago rally so bad it was canceled. You got it completely backwards dude.

https://youtu.be/Q9khUd0ip0g
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/30/us/donald-trump-rally-protest-costa-mesa.html
https://youtu.be/Kd6pVAb_tHs
https://youtu.be/7oeNW5ivSAM

http://reverbpress.com/news/trumps-america-woman-who-painted-naked-trump-beaten-by-his-goons/

Deny it didn’t happen? HAHAHAHAHA! Did you mean “deny it happened”? Go back and reread what I wrote. I never even addressed anti trump people. I said in my first post that everyone is responsible for his own actions. Your examples don’t really show me much. I understand that Mr drumpf incites violence not only in his followers but in those who abhor his message. You have two references to the same event on 28 April, the Chicago protest and some other place where really all they’re doing is chanting “no hate”. Meh. You can expect the mob mentality to take over at some point anytime there is a gathering and elevated excitement levels. I dare say it gets a lot worse after some Bears or Cubs games in Chicago.
I do not condone violence and I really wish drumpf SUPPORTERS didn’t. I noticed that you implied before that the man being escorted out of that one trump rally deserved to get punched in the face because he was giving someone the finger. So, some violence you’re ok with, just not when initiated by the opposition.
I believe that you and I are not going to agree.
No, you may not have what I’m smoking. Anyone smoking what I’m smoking does not get violent or support violence. Go drink a beer and tell us again why everyone does not deserve a living wage. Tell us again why it’s ok for Trump supporters like yourself to use violence but no one else. Tell us all about your wall you’re looking forward to. And explain to me why people opposed to Drumpf and his policy are “crazed” whild Drumpf supporters are the pinnacle of intelligence and model citizenship.
Then have another beer and go out and supress with violence anyone who disagrees with you and let mr Drumpf pay for your lawyer.

I’m not a Trump supporter, and I am completely anti-violence. I don’t believe Trump is paying people to beat up others.

Anti-Trump people who are so blind that they don’t see there has been violence by bother supporters and protesters obviously can’t see straight. Unless you think Trump is planting violent protestors to be able to blame them for violence?

The people who protest trump may mean well but they are usually the ones who are angry and instigating violence. I’m with @JLeslie and @Cruiser

Typo: both not bother.

I was following a page on facebook that was made for Trump protesters. This was before the election in Wisconsin. Trump was going to have a rally in Janesville and some people made the page to organize a peaceful protest. They accomplished what they set out to do. The people on that page stressed the importance of a peaceful protest.

During this same time I was also following a page called “Bikers for Trump.” You should have seen the disgusting comments on that page. “Wait until they see our big bikers. They are going to be scared!” There were so many ignorant and hateful comments on that page. It was disgusting.

I believe the only thing that happened at that rally was a 15 year old female protester getting groped by an older Trump supporter, then pepper sprayed in the face.

@dammitjanetfromvegas You left out the part of this young woman being highly belligerent….wasn’t groped, the man only puts a hand on her shoulder to calm her down and she punched the Trump supporter and subsequently gets maced.

There’s no reasoning with a mob. It’s all pure emotion.

@Cruiser That video leaves out what happened before she became belligerent. She was belligerent because she was groped. “You touched my chest!”

Were protesters there with pepper spray? No. Were Trump supporters there with pepper spray? Yes.

Who pepper sprays a 15 year old female? C’mon.

@dammitjanetfromvegas You can’t possibly know what anyone there was carrying on them. Plus she was accusing him of touching her chest not her breast. Just another example of how desperate and inflammatory anti-trump protesters are and will continue to behave just to post another BS youtube video. Stoopid shit.

For a woman what’s the difference between chest and breast? The words are often used synonymously. Especially, by young people who are often embarrassed to use words like breast, vagina, etcetera.

Having said that, I’m sure we can find websites of peaceful Trump supporters and not so nice Trump protestors. When Trump had an event by where I live and a protestor started getting a little harassed her neighbor walked over, who happened to see what was going on, and who is a Trump supporter, and stood by her side.

No one should be harassing anyone.

Even on Fluther people don’t use Trump’s correct last name. I guess that’s the same as republicans who accidentally say Osama instead of Obama or make sure to use Hussein when referring to him.

Why is everything black and white in politics? To like a politician you have to HATE everyone else? No. No, you don’t have to. Not every little thing about the other candidates is horrible. The anger level just makes for more dishonestly, false rumors, and people not willing to listen.

Candidates are not all good or all bad. Protestors and supporters aren’t either.

In a final effort to inform those who are woefully uninformed, I bring this for perusal.
In a final effort at being clear; I never said that drumft protestors were innocent of violence, only that the violence that was hitherto only perpetrated by his supporters seems to have a free pass and of no concern to those so loudly now clamoring about violence. Seems a bit hypocritical to me, but whatever, I’m not from here.
Trying to engage in this conversation was a mistake, and I can only think of one way to remedy it.

@Jak keep going for my amusement….but if I were you I would stop while you were only a few laps behind because your last statement tells me you are not even aware of what you are saying….

__“I never said that drumft protestors were innocent of violence, only that the violence that was hitherto only perpetrated by his supporters.“__

That makes zero sense and using “hitherto” is kinda dorky and outside your wheelhouse…just sayin

No need to be rude to Jak, @Cruiser.