What happened to the proper use of the apostrophe?

People just don’t think about it. They may be the same ones who apparently don’t know when to use “your, you’re.” But no, the rules haven’t changed.

A new one has me spinning a little…the inability to understand when to use “sell” or “sale.”

This has been going on for years. Not due to auto-correct; I see it in signage all the time. The assumption is that an apostrophe is used to denote plurals. Very annoying.

Autocorrect is apostrophe-centric, as well. I just had to correct back to “well” from “we’ll”. It puts apostrophes in the most bizarre places.

There is clearly accelerating slippage in knowledge of the rules applied to standard English. Things can only deteriorate as a flood of immigrants rolls across a land now distinguished for declining results from public education.

I dont’ know.

@stanleybmanly that was ridiculous.

@chyna Hahaha, I saw what you did there! People just don’t know how to use it and they get huffy and roll their eyes if you say anything to them. Same with commas. If you try to show people, they call you a grammar nazi. Personally, I’d rather do it correctly, but I’m in the minority and damn well know it.

I think its not a new problem, your just noticing more. I remember seeing unnecessary apostrophes on the signs in stores windows when I was a teenager in the 1970’s.

@Call_Me_Jay: Speaking of “noticing more,” you forgot the apostrophe in “you’re.”

@jca I think the several errors in that post are deliberate – at least I hope so.

@Dutchess III what was ridiculous?

Blaming the ignorance on the immigrants! There are plenty of people my age, who went to the same school I went to, same classes, same teachers, but who can’t put together a coherent sentence!
I think what we’re seeing are people trying to communicate via writing, in a way that’s never been seen before. They just don’t get it, never got it, for whatever reason, but they’ve never had to communicate this way before.
My grandparents were immigrants. My mom, and her brothers and sisters, learned to write proper English just fine.

No!!!! I’m not blaming immigrants for anything. In fact, it’s pretty obvious that immigrants, given the opportunity, go on to exceed their native born counterparts in command of English. What I AM saying is that the emphasis and insisitence on the rules of English no longer holds the priority in the schools of today as once was the norm in the schools of your day or your parents’.

@Dutchess The public schools in the era of your grandparents and even your parents were the envy of the world. In fact the finest public schools in the world could be found in the inner cities of America. And those cities DELIBERATELY devoted unheard of resources to equipping their teeming immigrant populations in the mastery of ENGLISH. This is clearly no longer the case.

Well, I misunderstood, then.

The schools aren’t the ones failing. The parents of the students are the ones failing.

Only part of this can be blamed upon the vagaries of autocorrect (or the lack thereof). If someone is switching between Android and Apple devices on a regular basis, it gets annoying to keep in mind the autocorrect rules for what happens with each system. One puts in apostrophes in places where they’re not needed while the other leaves them out in places where clearly needed. I’m frequently switching between an iphone /ipad and an Android phone (depending upon which one needs charging or whatnot) so I find it particularly annoying so am less vigilant when on Android.

I just wish they would get together and agree on one standard.

But the other part is just people inserting apostrophes whenever a word ends in S. Clearly it’s ridiculous but I see it happening constantly.

I decided a long time ago that being the spelling, grammar, punctuation police could become an exhausting full time job with absolutely no reward. So, I’ve just trained myself in the fine art of ignoring it.

But that’s one of the things which I found attractive about Fluther. There is far less of the illiteracy found on most websites.

Autocorrect does screw around with my apostrophe placement at times. With apple I don’t usually type apostrophes and hope autocorrect inserts them in the right places. It works about half of the time.

I think a lot of people don’t use them correctly aside from autocorrect.

Once one jelly told me there is no such thing as its’ is that true? I always thought there is an it’s, its, and its’.

I write your instead of you’re all the flipping time. I usually go back and catch it. I’m always stunned I make the mistake, because I know when you’re is correct with no problem.

Well, if you say “the dog think it’s its bone”...I think that’s right. In fact I think I asked a question about that. once. We use the apostrophe to show possession…but not in the word “its,” when it means possession.

^^I need to get the official on that. I’m unclear.

I think that one of the problems is that, with the rise of social media, people who have poor spelling and grammar now have large audiences. Probably, there have always been large numbers of people who didn’t know how to use an apostrophe (among other things), but now we’re all exposed to their errors.

And, because we’re all becoming accustomed to seeing these errors on a daily basis, it becomes normal to let these people write chalkboard signs in grocery stores, for example. People either become unsure of their own grasp of the apostrophe (so don’t correct or challenge it when wrong), or they no longer see any reason to verify their first guess before making it public (because half the people they know write it one way, and half another, so it doesn’t matter, right?).

@JLeslie

The easiest way to remember when an apostrophe is required is to use the words “it is” to replace the word its.

If it makes sense with substituting “it is” then you put the apostrophe in. In this case the apostrophe indicates a contraction (similar to can’t or doesn’t) rather than possession.

Otherwise leave it out.

The reason for many people’s confusion is because it is the ONLY TIME when one doesn’t use an apostrophe to show possession.

Here’s the official lowdown:
.
.
http://writingexplained.org/its-vs-its-what-is-the-difference-between-its-and-its

And just to illustrate how ridiculous autocorrect can be, I had to go back and add an apostrophe to the word doesn’t but not to the word can’t .

Well, that’s Android for you. I can understand leaving out apostrophes when the word can be either a plural or a possessive or a contraction.

For instance summer’s end. Summers is a perfectly valid plural word on its own.

However, neither can’t or doesn’t without an apostrophe are ever valid words. They ALWAYS require the apostrophe to indicate a contraction.

I find that, generally Speaking , Apple gets this correct more often than Android. But Apple also ALWAYS puts an apostrophe into the word it’s.

I remember having an email exchange with Gail after she picked up on that. I assured her that I definitely knew when to use an apostrophe for its (Since I spent years teaching it) but there were days when I just got tired of correcting the autocorrect :)

Since she eschewed a smartphone, she was unfamiliar with the peculiarities of telephone typing which necessitates hitting an extra key to change the field in order to access the apostrophe. And then you have to hit another key to get back to the original field. It’s annoying and exhausting.

Plus, I also made the same observation as @dappled_leaves describes about most people reading it wouldn’t really know the difference anyway.

But, she wasn’t buying that excuse at all :) Boy, I really miss her around here.

Thanks all.

@Buttonstc. The difference between Android and Apple is interesting. If they know that auto-correct often does this, whether they use one system or both, what causes them to not check their post before sending it?

@stanleybmanly Could you expand on the immigrant theory? The reason for asking is that I haven’t found this to be the case.

@Dutchess_III “The dog think(s) it’s its bone,” has the apostrophe the right place.

I don’t know about others not checking their posts. I can only speak for myself.

I definitely do check my posts but normally after I send for the simple reason that it’s so much easier to spot mistakes when everything is no longer encased in this tiny little yellow box which only shows FIVE lines at a time, necessitating scrolling, which is quite distracting.

And scrolling is made more difficult with an iPhone vs. Android because you have to persistently hold down the cursor instead of just being able to move everything up or down with merely a fingers touch with Android. So basically a hassle.

And there are just days when I get sick and tired of the effort required to correct the autocorrect. Placing the cursor in just the right place, changing fields constantly etc etc. I just figure that the majority of what I write is better than most and the few typos are recognized for what they are; typos rather than ignorance.

Plus, I’m just not OCD enough to worry about each and every apostrophe and comma. My spelling is normally about 99% accurate, so I just let that carry the day, cross my fingers and hope for the best :)

Perhaps not the best philosophy but it works for me :)

Plus I don’t think I’ve ever had anything modded for spelling, grammar or punctuation. Snarky comments, yes; writing standards, fortunately not :)

@Pied Pfeffer I’m uncertain as to just what it is you want me to expand on or what you find not to be the case.

I’m saying that this country has experienced in recent decades levels of immigration (legal and otherwise) exceeding the great waves of a century ago. The difference now is that those arriving currently do so in the face of dwindling resources dedicated to public education. In other words, at the time of greatest need, the primary institutions for acculturation of immigrant children (the public schools) are on the skids. It therefore follows that the chances of those children mastering the complex rules of written English decline in step with the withering of their schools.

@Buttonstc Thanks. I don’t use my phone for typing, other than occasional text message, so this information helps.

@stanleybmanly Thank you for the more in-depth explanation. There is probably truth in that. What I read is rarely written by young immigrant children where English is their second language.

@Dutchess III I will not argue with you over whether it is the schools or the parents which are failing the country’s kids. I will simply ask you if the parents are responsible, then who failed the parents? In the end, it doesn’t matter where the blame is placed. What matters is that we as a society are doomed to suffer tremendously if required to carry a sizable load of ill educated ignorant people into our future. In fact it may well be argued, that the idiotic political situation in this country is the direct result of ignorant people walking around with the ability to vote.

And at risk of further enhancing my aura of conceited elitism I might add that such phenomena as Trump and Palin are to my mind a perfect reflection on the rising levels of ignorant low information people defining us. We can debate all day whether we are getting dumber because the schools are failing us or if the schools are failing because we are getting dumber. But it is growing ever more difficult to avoid the conclusion that Americans are getting dumber. I await the imminent arrival of further absurdities in the vein of Trump & Palin to bolster my case. Just wait.

I think @dappled_leaves nailed it. The ignorance has always been there, but never before in history have we relied so much on our own written words. And @buttonstc nailed it, too “The reason for many people’s confusion is because it is the ONLY TIME when one doesn’t use an apostrophe to show possession.”

If people just never wrote, except when they had to in school, they simply don’t have the experience. For me, figuring out which form of “your, you’re,” “there, their, they’re” comes easily for me. I don’t even have to think about it. But I also have hundreds of thousands of hours writing experience behind me.
I also had parents who cared about my speech, grammar, punctuation, etc.

@janbb: And if they weren’t deliberate, he can now say they were and it will sound legit.

^^ true

To my deep regret as a writer, email, texting and social media have killed both the desire and need for old-fashioned “proper” grammer.

I don’t think it has. People still appreciate a well written post. People still form positive opinions about people who write well, whether they realize it or not.

@Buttonstc I have no problem knowing when to use it’s, I know what a contraction is. What I didn’t know is if its’ is a word.

It isn’t

^^I see that now. Thanks.

Of course its is a word. How else do you show the possessive form rather than the contraction?

@JLeslie asked about “its’ ” with the apostrophe at the end of the s, , where you put the possessive apostrophe in names that end in S, like, “Chris’ friends.”

@Dutchess_III: Dutchess’ friends.

Correctamundo!

The possessive form of it is its.

To me, its’ implies that its is the plural of it, but the plural of it is they, so the possessive form of the plural of it is theirs.

Its is a word, its’ is construable as it’s with the apostrophe in the wrong place, or its with an unneeded and erroneous apostrophe.

In summation, I think its’ is a word with incorrect punctuation, and probably not a word recognized by http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suggestions/its' or most any other authoritative reference.

However, someone could say it’s a word that they have in their imaginary vocabulary.

I’ve been taught to do “Chris’s”—but apparently there are differing opinions (or so says Wikipedia) and division again on whether silent-s’s should have a second s after the apostrophe or not, as with “Decartes’ ” (which is also what I was taught, so if I ever say “I’m borrowing Chris’s Decartes’ Meditations,” that’s how I would spell it…

Also, with “its bone”—I like to think of it like “her bone” and “his bone”—not sure if it’s correct, but those don’t have an apostrophe to show possession either, so at least it fits to some sort of pattern?

Sorry. I missed the apostrophe at the end. That’s what comes from reading too quickly.

Yes, its’ (with an apostrophe at the end) is not a correct word usage.

Its is one of those weird exceptions to the usual rules of English. It’s the only possessive where the apostrophe is omitted. No wonder people find it confusing and keep wanting to put one in somewhere :)

But I’ve found that the best way to treat exceptions is to separate them from everything else and memorize each exception as its own entity, isolated from the rest. That way it stands out in one’s mind.

What if you’re talking about a tree and its leaves? You can’t put a “him, her, or their,” on it.

To me, Chris’ just looks neater and cleaner than “Chris’s.” s’s puts me in mind of a snake with a lisp.
Anybody out there channeling Gail?

@Buttonstc I think the memorization is where it really breaks down. People who don’t write much just don’t memorize exceptions much.

Suffice to say, is the word the Knights cannot hear! .....I said it! Ooooo! I said it again! Aaaahhhh! I said it again!

Oh! I found another. I sent a text to my son to see if he had a paint sprayer. I said, “Ours is broken.” No apostrophe to show possession.

I thought theirs was spelled their’s, but that annoying know-it-all, Firefox, corrected me. ;-)

And we have another….

—Possessive pronouns like ours, theirs, yours, his, its, hers and mine are already possessive with no modification.

They are already possessive nouns with no help.

—We use the apostrophe to modify words that aren’t already possessive.

“Susie’s car” or “the dog’s leash” need the apostrophe to change the noun into a possessive adjective.

—Note that “its” & “it’s” fit the pattern.

“Its” the possessive pronoun is already possessive with no modification.

“It’s” the contraction for “it is” is a different animal, it’s like “don’t” or “can’t”.

Sorry I may have confused things… very tired today… I just meant, though “its” isn’t the same as possessive pronouns, it’s similar in that doesn’t need an apostrophe-s to indicate possession, so it’s a way to remember which its/it’s is which from the other direction.

I saw so many “tits” in @Call_Me_Jay‘s post….I have drankened too much beer.

It is SO MUCH easier to just mentally replace any its with the words “it is” If it makes no sense that way, no apostrophe is needed.

Actually it takes far less time to mentally do that than it does to type this out. Why get more convoluted approaching it from the opposite direction and requiring knowledge of other possessives etc.

Everybody can understand whether substituting “it is” makes sense or not. No thought needed. It’s obvious if it sounds right or doesn’t. I had 8 yr. old kids (3rd Grade) for whom it was not a problem. Why add complexity to something so simple?

Not all conundrums of the English language are as easy to find a simple down and dirty solution for. So, why not use the simple approach on this one?

Haha you’re right, @Buttonstc…. my dad’s an engineer-y type, so I’ve been raised to complicate things :P

What I don’t understand is how some people don’t recognize that they’re using contractions…my biggest pet peeve is “I could of….”

Ha ha. One of my best friends from my college days is an Engineer so I know exactly what you’re talking about :)

I am so the opposite. But if your profession involves explaining things so that even an 8 yr. old can understand it, thats actually an advantage.

He was an Annapolis Grad and I ended up teaching Elementary grades so we both ended up in the profession best suited to each of us.

“it appears from the evidence that there was never a golden age in which the rules for the use of the possessive apostrophe in English were clear-cut and known, understood, and followed by most educated people.”
– The Oxford Companion to the English Language

We’ve been using the apostrophe to indicate plurals for hundreds of years.

Its one of though’s thing’s that send’s me through the buildings top every time I see it. It happen’s too many time’s to count, so I stoppped keeping trax a long time ago.

Many years ago, I was driving a school bus route, and there were occasionally charter trips available. The management put up a sign-up list that said:

“Driver’s who want to take there busses’s out on charter’s sign there names’ here?”

No shit @Strauss? OMG. Some of it is easy to screw up when you’re typing fast, but to make an entire SIGN??

^^Hand written!

Ew! I once subbed in a classroom. The regular teacher had written out some on-going instructions about classroom expectations that he had posted by the door. The misspellings and grammatical errors just floored me. I wondered how in the hell such a person got a job teaching. If I had been the principal I would have told him to take that shit down and write it all out correctly.

@Dutchess_III No shit @Strauss

Reminds me of a guy from my past we called “No-shit Shelby”. This guy was a real Captain Obvious”.