Why are we perpetually drilled to conflate capitalism with freedom?

I don’t necessarily equate the two.

It is part of the propaganda put out by Capitalists.

It’s like Libertarianism. Capitalists want all the freedom possible while having everyone else restricted from competing against them.

Freedom and capitalism are complimentary. Crony capitalism is not.

Perhaps it’s about the “freedom to exploit”

The same reason propagandists try to tell you that “crony capitalism” is not “real capitalism”.

Cold War propaganda that stuck… :-P

Related to why any attempt to discuss any alternative to righteous capitalism has some people react by calling the person a communist.

Interestingly, it even goes so far for some people (trolls?) as to suggest that these supposed socialist/communist ideas are also fascist and/or dictatorial doctrines. Apparently we need to let giant corporations rule the world, or else we’re suggesting something that will lead to slavery and death camps and endless badness.

In a true free market society you cannot have crony capitalism because you no longer have a free market. Controls must be in place to keep that from happening. Busting up monopolies are a legit function of gov’t. Middle ground is where it’s at folks, we can’t operate there if everyone thinks and preaches extremes.

We can thank Milton Friedman for this. In his book he wrote…“Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself,”

He went on the advise Ronald Reagan who resurrected trickle down economics and we all know where that got us.

Plus the world will always have Ted Cruz’s and Sarah Palin’s who will always have an audience willing to drink the “any Government Regulation of the capitalist free market is an assault on our freedoms” Kool aid.

Is it the same thought as I keep hearing from right wing conservatives that liberal and communism go together?

@SQUEEKY2 Yes it is.

I’m free to choose to be a capitalist.

Any questions?

I think it’s a legacy of Cold War propaganda and McCarthyism.

It’s also an association that has no historical, empirical, or philosophical validity. Without even having to go into why capitalism has nothing to do with freedom, there are glaring examples of capitalist countries that are actually very authoritarian: Pinochet’s Chile, modern China, Singapore, and many others.

In recent years, the capitalist argument has evolved through the likes of Friedman (as mentioned earlier) and other hyper-capitalist “thinkers” like Rand, Hayek, von Mises —and spawned an entire industry of free-market think tanks, self-styled philosophers and capitalist apologetics, and the entire “Libertarian” movement.

In the newly evolved conception of capitalism, capitalism is freedom because actually existing capitalism is really “corporatism” and “crony capitalism”—but really real capitalism is just people entering voluntarily into contracts and making uncoerced mutually beneficial exchanges.

If it weren’t for pesky regulations, and the government doing favours for capitalists who buy favours from them, or any other sort of market interference or anti-competitive action by capitalists or others (like those nasty trade unions)—we’d all have true capitalism™ and this idealised capitalism would perfectly allocate resources and result in perfect equilibrium as the invisible hand of the market does its miraculous work.

@SecondHandStoke You need money to be a capitalist.

@Kropotkin You presented really interesting arguments but you lost me big time when you answered @SecondHandStoke that one need money to be a capitalist….I would argue you merely need an idea that you can hawk to venture capitalists…or in my case you f’n work your ass off….leverage all that you own and take an enormous risk 99.9% of the human populations would not take and buy a company that is seller financed. The covenants I have to honor are hair raising but in the end I am making good because I did not take a risk….I took a chance on me that was a chance I knew I would succeed because I knew what I was doing….and damned be the Government for doing their very best to make sure I pay an even greater price with their piled on regulations and skyrocketing taxes and health care costs. Guess who pays??? I do…you do and the many employees I only wish I could hire had I not had this burden of Lib BS nonsense thrust upon my shoulders.

IMHO liberalism saps the incentive of an individual to seek, strive and educate oneself to succeed…Liberalism teaches one to be mediocre and live off of others hard work. Obama said it himself when he said one only needs so much money!?! Conservatism incentives one to get up off their ass and work hard and then work harder to succeed and if that didn’t work the first or second time (as in my case) then try again and try harder and educate yourself every step of the way. Guess what? It works and it works more often than Liberal experts want you to believe it does.

leverage all that you own and take an enormous risk 99.9% of the human populations would not take and buy a company that is seller financed

I own approximately 1000 used books and a bunch of craft supplies, and a 16 year old car with a Blue Book value of about $500. I have no credit. What kind of company should I buy?

Yeah, you don’t need money to be a capitalist. You just need to go to the capitalists who have money and ask them for the money.

@Seek Simple…Open a book store.

@Darth_Algar I never said you don’t need money to be a capitalist….if you want to succeed you need to have an idea and the desire to make that idea come to fruition. Venture capitalists are vultures lying in wait for new ideas to help make those dreamers into future capitalists.

I have a brother who is one of the most highly revered glass artists in the world and he is stone cold broke and is expert on living on welfare. I have a son who at 14 took his passion for working on Briggs and Stratton motors and started his own small engine repair business…at 14 he made more money than his 49 year old uncle. What is wrong with that picture?

@Cruiser you got that fucking right.

@Cruiser – Ha. Used bookstores are closing left, right, and center. People can’t give books away fast enough these days.

It makes me terribly sad that your brother cannot make a viable income off of his skill. I know his pain. My hobby is textile weaving. You can imagine how lucrative that is, I’m sure.

@Seek do not shed any tears for my brother…if you utter his name to any glass blower in the world they consider him a God…he is simply too enamored with himself to make the required effort to promote his craftsmanship beyond having a place to stay abroad while his family struggles with whatever meager assistance our government affords him and his family.

I have a frat brother that begged me for $600.00 rent money as he pursued his dream of being an actor….meanwhile he sold his blood and his sperm to pay rent and his prepay phone so he could be available to answer his phone if and when that casting call came. Both made excuses to not get a real job to support themselves and their families….excuse me while I gag….

@Cruiser

I want to test that theory, and there’s a glass blower across the street from me. What’s his name?

@Darth_Algar I will take a pass for now as I do not have enough warm fuzzy feelings with you to share personal information….just ask your so called glass blower across the street who they feel is most influential in their art beside Dale Chihuly…you will have your answer.

It seems to me that the great advantage conservatives have on their leftist counterparts is in their simplistic and shallow arguments on the way things work. Take for example the idea that if you live in a society where things are rigged such that you can’t earn a living as an artist, musician, actor or craftsperson, you are by definition a parasite for following your muse. Conservatives will always have the upper hand in a society where intellectual and spiritual considerations take a back seat to greed and selfishness. The mantra of “get a real job you bum” is just too readily available as is the superficial designation of wealthy liberals as hypocrites for the perceived contradiction in successfully playing the rigged game while pointing out that the game is rigged. The problem with the left is that a certain level of cognitive ability is required to understand that the argument from the opposite end of the scale amounts to “the trouble with America is is that we need more greed and selfishness.”

WOW!!^^^^ Great answer there @stanleybmanly .

@Cruiser – I will continue to mourn the lack of appreciation this world has for the arts, regardless of your insistence that I do not.

Some (perhaps many) creative people do not have a strong business acumen. If your brother is so immensely talented and skilled that his name is on the lips of everyone knowledegable about his profession, than it is a damned shame that he should be punished for not also being a strong businessperson. He is not a businessperson. He is an artist.

Sure, you’ve done very well for yourself in business. Let’s stick a ball of molten glass onto a tube and see you make something of your brother’s caliber.

But,but @Seek if your art can make you wealthy then fine, but if not you’re expected to give it up and do something that does, that is just the Capitalist way.

I don’t have any sympathy for the common liberal view here. It’s one thing to be unable to provide for yourself but it’s another thing to be more than capable but unwilling. I know so many people like @Cruiser‘s brother. Talented, smart but fundamentally lazy, entitled and irresponsible. I have friends well “friends” that are brilliant yet they never got that nobody would pay them to sit around and be smart so they never actually learned how to do much that would. They never actually learned how their community works yet they’ll pontificate about it on queue. As a result they are resentful of those who have any excess. They are all liberal as hell too. They constantly whine about not having money or “the little guy just can’t get ahead” or “it’s a rigged game.” Anyone who has gotten ahead knows it’s not and they were capable of improving their situation because of….capitalism. But the ones doing the whining can’t be bothered to stop smoking pot for a month or so to pass a drug test to get a halfway decent job to provide for their family. Capitalism is not perfect but it does allow people without much of anything to get ahead if they are willing to sacrifice a little time, use some ingenuity, take calculated risks etc.. You simply can’t do this in many other countries like you can here.

On cue? or whilst standing in an orderly line?

Odd how this discussion on the conflation of Capitalism and Freedom devolved into a discussion on work ethic.

To get back to the original topic, the Corporate Capitalism idea that “I should not be restricted in my business” often carries a belief that “my actions that make me a profit” should not be burdened with costs that are actually part of my activity.

Environmental regulations are the main example of this. A coal burning power plant does not want to bear the cost of scrubbers on smokestacks. “Why should they have to pay to clean the air?” But why should neighbors bear the environmental costs created by the power plant?

Economists call it “internalizing the externalities.” It is not some socialist idea that most Capitalist will call it; it is a more accurate accounting for the costs of doing business.

@Seek @ARE_you_kidding_me My brother is anything but lazy….he works and teaches his ass off. He is a protégé of Dale Chihuly who makes millions while my brother cannot pay the water bill. You may ask…why is this?? Despite a big 10 college education my brother is just too nice of a guy…to a fault. He will fly all over the world to teach students and merely trades for food, room and board. I have for over 25 years offered to help him build a better web site…his website was last updated in 2007. He should be making 6 figures a year with his talent….his books he writes are regarded as the best in the industry but they take 2+ years to write and meanwhile his family struggles. I don’t get it. My mom died recently and her dying wish was to kick his ass into gear so he starts setting his priorities.

I have a hunch that artists are simply wired differently than others and overall he seems happy….how can I argue with that?

Yeah, I don’t think you can argue with that. Sorry, I don’t really know your brother. I’m projecting some frustration I have with some key people in my life that just can’t get a clue

@Cruiser It was just a play on @SecondHandStoke‘s use of “free”.

You even agree that an idea requires financing—whether it’s by sharing the idea with venture capitalists, by borrowing, or by raising the capital on one’s own. This initial investment is then used to produce goods or services which are then sold for more than you started with (hopefully).

I think you can also agree that not everyone can become a capitalist, even if everyone wanted to. Capitalists need a working class—they need to hire workers to make the goods and provide the services they sell (until robots take over completely). And most of those who try to become capitalists don’t—most new businesses fail in their first year.

The risk argument also does not convince me as a basis for justifying capitalist reward. Many jobs are far more dangerous and risk actual life and limb rather than just some initial capital—but workers in heavy industry, logging, agriculture, construction, mining, etc—don’t expect to become millionaires because of it (though the owners do).

@Cruiser “I will take a pass for now as I do not have enough warm fuzzy feelings with you to share personal information….just ask your so called glass blower across the street who they feel is most influential in their art beside Dale Chihuly…you will have your answer.”

I’d have a name, but by no means would I have an answer.

@Kropotkin You make great points but they suffer from self imposed limitations that I humbly believe keep the vast majority of people in their comfort zone. Taking a risk on any level takes guts. Skydiving, rappelling, racing cars, being a soldier, getting married and having kids etc. all require a leap of faith and fortitude to make it happen. Yes not everyone has thick enough skin to do the things in life to take risks. I envied my fraternity brother who was a brilliant economist in college yet took a job as a postman. He had 20–50 paid days off each year and full pension by age 50 and retired at 55. Shit…I am still working my ass off and will be for the next 10+ years. Is he happy? dunno…am I happy? As happy as I can be at this stage of the game.

My point is…not everyone is cut out to take risks….taking risks have consequences…some painful, some deadly.

I have yet to meet one person who did not have a moment in time where they had to make a choice that would have greatly impacted their life and they chose the safe choice and looking back regrets they did not pull that trigger. I myself have at least 4 of these.