What good can come from Orlando and other mass shootings?

ISIS has already taken responsibility for this shooting. It seems a bit presumptuous to say it is not ISIS.

ISIS in addition to being (obviously) an extreme terrorism organism, is an opportunistic death cult, having nothing to do with the real message of Islam. It’s almost as if they inducted him posthumously.

ISIS has already taken responsibility for this shooting. It seems a bit presumptuous to say it is not ISIS.

Good thinking. Always support everything ISIS says. They seem like a bunch of really earnest and trustworthy fellows.

A terrible loss in Orlando.
ISIS is usually a group attack. A lone wolf attack may or may not be ISIS.
Most likely the attacker is a follower of a radical Iman or mosque. Not all radical Muslims are members of ISIS.
Only using logic not emotions.

What good? None. Obama looked defeated in his speech. This is the new normal. Congrats N.R.A, you won.

If nothing could be done after Sandy Hook nothing will come from this.

Let’s see. This guy was investigated because he claimed to have ties to Terrorists. Not once but twice. He screamed Allah Akbar and swore his allegiance to ISIS on his 911 call. @Yetanotheruser wants to dismiss that and state categorically that this had nothing to do with ISIS. I simply find that statement irresponsible and misleading.

It seems obvious to me that this was not organized by ISIS. Why are people so desperate to believe that? Everybody already hates ISIS; we don’t need to chalk up more bad things in their “done” column. And of course, they are going to claim responsibility. It is win/win for them to claim responsibility for any violent act that scares people. Don’t be so gullible.

This was a hate crime against homosexuals, presumably fomented by religious belief. That means that it is also a terrorist act. The shooter hated to see gay people expressing their affection, so he shot a large number of them to make it stop. He wanted to make ensure by his actions that gay people would not be kissing in public. That is terrorism, no matter who foots the bill.

@Jaxk

People can claim anything they want to. Claiming something doesn’t make it so.

@Jaxk @Yetanotheruser wants to dismiss that and state categorically that this had nothing to do with ISIS.

I respectfuly disagree with your assessment of my assessment. My statement was based upon news reports from various sources that there was no chatter that indicates the shooter’s actions were coordinated or ordered by ISIS or any other group. The shooter was an irate homophobe. His own father has stated that the shooting had nothing to do with religion. Similar “red flags” to those that caused him to be investigated also caused many, many other Americans to be investigated, with no arrests.

This man was violent, he had been abusive to his ex-wife, he was a truly sick individual. His claim to be loyal to ISIS was an attempt to justify his own homophobic behavior, and the claim by ISIS, to me, was sheer opportunism.

@Yetanotheruser, yes, hate was surely part of the equation, but I would hardly describe the worst mass shooting in the history of the USA as “pure and simple” by any measure. iI’s far more complicated than that—especially since all we know thus far is from TV “Breaking News” reports and social media speculation, neither guaranteed always to have or even care about all the facts.

Personally, I’m holding out for a lot more solid information in the days ahead before I do any labelling.

The shooter was investigated for ties to terrorism twice and the FBI found no substance to those ties.

The guy became known for running his mouth. It’s not illegal to run your mouth and tell lies.

ISIS would cheerfully claim anything they like. That doesn’t mean they had any idea – before today – who that guy is.

The only good that can ever come out of untimely death is the old cliche, live every day as if it is your last. Whether a mass shooting, a car accident, falling down the stairs or having a tree come crashing through your bedroom window, shit happens, preventable or not, it happens, period. A very sad situation to be sure.

@Jaxk Isis will take credit for the Lindberg baby, the sabotage of the Hindenberg and the wreck of the Hesperus. This is not about terrorism or religion. In fact you can well argue that the occasional Muslim in our endless shoot-em ups only serves to show how well Muslims are integrated into mainstream American culture. That’s right, young, old, Christians, Jews, you name it, ours is a land of equal opportunity mass killers. However, for some strange reason consistent with other aspects of America, women and gays are underrepresented in the lineup. But that could change. What better statement for diversity and challenge to skinheads everywhere than the fact that a Muslim American now holds the mass murder trophy in the United States?

Nothing at this rate. We didn’t learn from the first, second, or third, we’re not learning from the 500th either. Innocent people died again and nothing will change.

Well. I live in Charleston SC. We had a pathetic loser shoot up one of our historical black churches. The shooter was racially motivated and the incident was meant to be inflammatory. He hoped to start a race war. Instead thousands showed up on our largest bridge as a show of solidarity. I’m very mad at the shooter but I couldn’t be more proud of my community. Inocent people died and we can’t bring them back. But hate didn’t win. Love did. We all loved each other enough to know it was the actions of a coward, who hated his life so much he tried to destroy others. My feelings on these terrorists is that they are the lowest type of scum. They have weak , gullible minds , and their cowardly acts only have as much power as the media and community give them. Standing united and not letting these disasters divide us is the best we can do. In the mean time, if people notice others about to commit one of these atrocities, call the police. If it’s happening on front of us we’re just going to have to gang up on them before they do more damage. Our government refuses to attempt to take these instruments from these people and honestly, even without guns ,these incidents can happen. It’s hard to stop a lone person willing to die to harm many others. People need to keep alert, and possibly stop these things before they happen. That’s about all we can do.

Stricter gun laws and a more efficient mental health care system. People need to start realising that the vast majority of the time guns are not actually being used for protection, they are being used for unprovoked assault.

Nerdskeith, you made valid points about control and mental health. I disagree that they are mostly used for assault though. Lots of people live in dangerous neighborhoods. And they feel safer because of the shotgun under the bed or the pistol in the nightstand. And to an extent they are. As long as they aren’t where someone other than the intended users can get. Some places I’ve lived I had to rack a shotgun at night to get someone to leave my door at night. They didn’t come back. Guns are like any other tool to me. But you should have to be deemed component to own one. You can’t go just rent a big rig. You have to have a certain type of license. Same should be true for a firearm. The more ability the weapon has to inflict greater casualties the harder it should be to purchase. IMO…

On Facebook I have seen people stand up against the hate. They were Christisns but I had no idea where they stood on LGBT issues. I think this made them finally stand up to the haters in their own community and say enough is enough. I have been close to tears today on several occasions seeing people that I assumed were way right leaning standing up for love and equality

@Pachy I would hardly describe the worst mass shooting in the history of the USA as “pure and simple” by any measure.

I did not intend to downplay in any way the severity and magnitude of the event. I used “pure and simple” to describe the shooter’s motives. Pure and simple hatred; pure and simple homophobia, dressed up to look like terrorism.

Terrorism to me is motivated by misdirected anger. People aren’t happy with their life , so they lash out. Some people believe they have no hope , or direction. Then they get some radical person in their ear, and it gives them a reason to direct their anger at something other than themselves. I’m a pessimist, but I hope that most terrorists were/are ‘salvageable. ’ I think they started in rough circumstances, with no hope and some asshole got in their head and then they slowly got /get brainwashed.
People need hope…Without improvements in the governments, economy of some of these young people’s countries , I’m afraid that extremism will always proliferate.

In the coming weeks we’ll learn a lot more about his motivation and his contacts. Unfortunately ruling this as a simple Hate Crime, doesn’t help to solve the over riding problem. These types of attacks have escalated since the advent of ISIS. They will continue to increase in frequency the longer we allow ISIS to be the standard bearer. ISIS provides a group, a cause for anyone that wants to kill. The success of ISIS only serves to make the environment for killing greater. ISIS sanctions killing of Jews, Gays, Christians, hell even other Muslims. If you want to kill, that’s the group you want to join. Ignoring this association only serves to expand the problem. Eliminate ISIS and we’ll make a significant dent in the proliferation of these terror attacks. IMHO

None. Once America decided it was ok to slaughter children, there was no way that anything was going to change the gun culture in this country.

@Jaxk I don’t believe that for a second and you shouldn’t either. There is ALWAYS an excuse to shoot up folks and frustrated or disturbed people WILL find it. Do you think for a second that this maniac would have sat at home and sulked minus the inspiration of ISIS?

Agreed stanleybmanly, some people just need an excuse to commit these atrocities. I think some get talked into it, but some are just sadistic, pathetic people. Some might be motivated by infamy. If they feel unimportant in their life, they will become a person whose face will be all over every news channel. Maybe the cover of Rolling Stone. Their story, and motivation for such crimes to be toiled over and picked apart by the likes of Nancy Grace , and Dr. Drew for days or weeks. Perhaps one way of avoiding these acts, or lessening their frequency, is not making the culprit a star of sorts….

@stanleybmanly – Whether he would have sat out or not, it seems irresponsible to ignore the obvious ties. He didn’t shout derogatory things about gays he praised Allah. He claimed solidarity with terrorists not anti gay groups. He attended the Mosque with the guy that went to Syria as a suicide bomber. How can you ignore all this and write it off by saying he was a bigot. There’s way too much to ignore. I can’t do it.

He wasn’t fasting for Ramadan.

That’s a really big deal, if we’re going to claim him as a religious extremist.

@Jaxk My point is that this man’s particular bug up his ass was about gay men. Gay men or “I did it for Isis” are irrelevant. Mass shootings in the United States are neither Muslim nor Isis driven. And that is the truth. Mass shootings in the United States are almost exclusively the product of a relatively few crazy people in a land so awash with firearms that there is no practical method to deter such crimes. It’s JUST that simple

A small something good:

In the last two days, my husband and I have been discussing recent events, and it’s led to talking about privilege.

Hubby grew up in rural Illinois in the 70s and watched his town taken over by drugs, gangs, and crime. That’s led to him having some racist thoughts.

In the past, he’d never even discuss it. Today we compared Mateen with that Frodo-looking asshole who tried to shoot up LA pride, and how the public discussion treats each of them.

Then we compared how he is treated by police vs. How his friend is treated by police. He and his friend are of similar build and could be brothers. The friend has a Hispanic last name, and a very different life experience.

Finally getting it into his head that his life is easier not because of anything he’s done, just because of how he was born – white, male, straight – was a very good thing.

Seek has a great point. Without discussion there will be no possibility of change (in a positive way. )
Like anything else in life , one has to be aware of a problem to address it.
Perhaps that is one of the ‘good’ things that could come from this. These events may at least alow people who don’t like ‘gay’ people to feel upset at this tragedy. Forming a sort of empathetic bond, that wouldn’t have existed without this horrific incident.
Guess what I’m saying is, this might remind some that we are all people. All riding the struggle bus. Those who can’t empathize with the victims of this massacre are truly a pathetic thing from a bygone ,and ignorant era…

Frodo-looking asshole who tried to shoot up LA pride

Not to take away from everything else you wrote, but it looks unlikely Frodo was aiming to shoot up the pride parade. It appears more like he was a small town mope fecklessly cruising the big city with his usual trunk full of weapons.

@Seek

Interestingly enough, I grew up in rural Illinois (in the 80–90s) and have seen my town slowly get taken over by gangs, drugs and violence, but it’s mostly the white trash meth-heads. Well that and people turning to crime out of desperation from the lack of opportunity from the city’s unwillingness to do anything to even try to promote growth and economic development.

Hubby’s from Danville.

I’m from much farther south, near Kentucky (although for the last decade I’ve lived in Chicagoland).

@Jaxk Concentrating on ISIS in regard to gun violence here is equivalent to faulting a bunch of juvenile delinquents who stumble onto a field littered with open cases of fireworks. The issue isn’t that ISIS can or will do it. The issue is that ANYONE can do it.

Stanley – If you want to focus on gun control, it should have some impact on the problem at hand. Nothing I’ve seen would have any impact on any of the mass shootings we’ve had. Omar was not on the no-fly list and had been cleared by the FBI. Hell a gun store where Omar tried to buy Body Armor Reported him to the FBI and still nothing happened. The whole gun control talking point is a ruse that won’t affect anyone except the law abiding gun owners. Personally I have no dog in this fight (I don’t own a gun) but I grow weary of these government power grabs without any logical impact on the problem at hand.

I see no government power grabs, never have have when it comes to guns. Only weary citizens looking to discuss the issue without the usual “don’t take mah guns! TYRANNY!!!!!” rhetoric.

@Jaxk I agree that legislative remedies are pointless, but disagree with the argument that it is because radical Muslims represent an exceptional threat. The truth is that the excuses for shooting folks up are as many and varied as the guns available to dispatch them. This being the case, the only variable that matters is the number of malcontents at any particular moment determined to shoot their way into history. The failure of government agencies in the case of Omar merely demonstrates that the number of potential shooters with Muslim affiliations is beyond the scope of practical surveillance. But it’s pretty much a waste of time concentrating on Muslims in a society where anyone with a little determination can lay their hands on a combat grade assault rifle.

Come to think of it, all you need do is look at the drug situation to understand that outlawing firearms or for that matter, attempting to regulate them at all is futile.

@stanleybmanly And let’s not forget our history. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920’s didn’t keep alcohol from being sold or consumed—it just created an underground supply chain and management system that gave us the crime-boss families of the fifties, sixties and beyond.

@MrGrimm888 Sorry I don’t agree that it isn’t necessary to be deemed competent to own a gun. Of course you should have to be. It’s because there is too much leniency in the law that is allowing for mass shootings to occur. There is absolutely no doubt that restrictions and vigorous assessments need to be put in place.

There are alternatives to protecting your house without firearms. The most obvious is a home security system. My house was robbed a good few years ago while I was sleeping. So I had an alarm system installed.

Check out this it has some interesting suggestion in regard to alternatives to guns for home protection. Although I also don’t recommend using baseball bats. But pepper spray is not a bad alternative. And I won’t be against a big angry dog to intimidate potential intruders. Plenty of other nations all around the world no not allow civilians to have fire arms at all. And they manage quite well without them.

Nerdykeith, I agree with most of your position. However, in regards to your security system, it us a reactive measure at best. I’ve had my share of home security systems, and if they work they are a moderate deterrent at best. An experienced thief will only consider a security system a reason to hurry, but not to avoid the dwelling. Dogs help , I agree but not all high risk dwellings allow pets. I will never argue against a home security system, but if I have to choose between that and a shot gun, I’m going gauge. It’s possible to circumvent most systems with little knowledge. Most systems have sensors only on doors and windows opening. If the glass is broken , or windows not sensored are accessed no alarm will sound. Some systems depend on power. Some on phone lines. My Mossberg 500 is much more dependable.
If the sh!t hits the fan. You rely on your security system. I’ll rely on my 12 gauge. Good luck waiting for the cops. If your system even contacts them. 15 minutes or so waiting for a response from the police is an eternity. Sadly, you or your family could be injured or dead by the time your security system provides you with law enforcement. In my neighborhood, it’s up to me to protect myself , and my belongings. Police are little help (not always their fault.)
If you indeed live somewhere that a security system is sufficient to protect you, then I envy you. But things are getting worse , not better…
PS , In my perfect world, there are NO guns…But I live here..

Yes this perfectly describes the situation in the United States. It is absolutely impossible to argue against “if no one had a gun, there could be no shootings”. But then you’re confronted with the direct obverse of that reasoning “if we were all armed, everyone would be safer”. What these 2 positions amount to is the debate between which is preferable, the collective safety of us all or individual freedom and responsibility for self protection. Well, the first argument holds little sway in a land where the firearms available far exceed quantities sufficient to arm EVERYONE. We are in effect FORCED down the second path by the sheer weight of gun metal available, and the results are all too predictable.

Indeed stanleybmanly, I don’t like feeling like I have to own a weapon to be safe. But it seems the law of the land. There are so many guns in America that even if we stopped selling them ,there would always be guns everywhere.
If we are all armed we are certainly LESS safe. Because not everyone who owns a gun is capable of using it with safety, and if need be appropriate use. But , when pressed , many citezens here arm themselves because others are armed .To be fair, drugs, and poverty are the main reasons for most gun violence in America. If those 2 problems were realistically addressed, gun violence would drop significantly, even with the same amount of guns on the street.Without reason to rob and steal, or battle for turf used to sell narcotics, there would be far less violence in American neighborhoods…

@MrGrimm888 – Shooting an intruder is the definition of a reactive measure.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Department of Justice, you’re more likely to have your home invaded by a close family member than a neighbor, and a neighbor more than a complete stranger.

Someone breaking into your house looking for something to pawn for drug money isn’t interested in killing you. But if you’re so attached to your iPad that you’re itching at the chance to shoot someone over it, you do have the legal right to do that.

However, if you use your AR-15 to dispatch a meth head to the Great Beyond, make sure you don’t end up with a through-and-through that also takes out your neighbor’s child in the next apartment.

To clarify, I am not suggesting that all guns be removed from US citizens. I am suggesting that guns like semi automatic rifles be deemed as a military only weapon. In fact some people would regard it as a machine gun (under a different name)

A simple handgun should be allowed under the circumstances of accruing a gun licence. Gun licences should not be given out lightly, extreme background checks must be performed. Anyone with a serious criminal conviction or suspicion of terrorist involvement or organised crime involvement should immediately lose their licence.

This of course would not magically make all gun violence vanish. But it makes it that bit more difficult for mass murderers and terrorists to commit their crimes. Take in mind that the individual who murdered all those people in Orland, did so with a weapon that was purchased recently and legally. On top of that he was under suspicion by the FBI. He should not have been given a gun (ethically speaking).

Seek, first of all, always a pleasure.
Secondly, I have no intention of shooting an intruder, unless I feel my life , or that of my family is in danger. I own a pump action shotgun. The sound of it being pumped has always been an effective way to detter a would be intruder. It is meant to be a deterrent, much like a nuke is for a country that has them.
You mentioned theft, but left out home invasions, and if you’re a woman, rape and / or murder. If you think the only people who want to break into your home are relatives and petty thieves, you are sadly mistaken…The world is full of desperate, and in some cases , malicious, psychopaths. I’m happy that I have the ability to protect myself and my family from these fine folks.
Many people lump gun owners together as blood thirsty, trigger happy idiots. Indeed there are plenty of those. But not all. Some are responsible owners who are well trained and reluctant to take a life .
Nerdykeith, again I agree with some of your thinking. I personally don’t think assault rifles should be illegal. But it should take extensive screening of would be buyers. In addition, only an idiot would fore an AR15 in any place other than a range or battlefield. To be fair, people use them alot in my state to hunt wild boars. Not to spray neighborhoods, or fight the government.
Bottom line is guns of all types should be difficult to aquire IMO. I also think WAY more resources should be put into researching the people who buy assault weapons and / or large amounts of ammo. I was at a gun show not long ago, and the line on the way our was full of people carrying assault style rifles and cans of ammo. No one bats an eye. Gun control doesn’t just need to be adjusted, it needs a complete overhaul, with honest , thoughtful conversation, and reasonable goals. I think if you’re a gun enthusiast who doesn’t want more gun control because you want to buy an AR in 20 minutes, then you’re a selfish asshole.