What is better for the homeless, more stuff, or dignity?

Best would be both.

That is, it’d be great for everyone if people would drop their dehumanizing righteous notions toward people who are less well-off. Then they’d be less trapped in their own guilty delusions and self-evasions, and might be more likely to provide for everyone’s basic needs.

Framing the question as one or the other seems to me to come from an assumption that everyone agrees that poverty lacks dignity, which is not at all agreed upon.

Would a home be “stuff”?

Why would this be an either/or question?

“Dignity” isn’t going to be worth much if a person’s basic needs are unmet. Having the basic necessities, on the other hand, can do wonders for a person’s dignity.

Hierarchy of needs. Dignity ain’t gonna keep you warm/dry at night or feed you.

When dignity is defined as self-respect, there is no way to give that to someone. They either have it or they don’t.

If it means showing someone respect while you appreciate they have needs you can supply them, then why not give them both.

FRoA #109: “Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.”

I’ve been homeless many times and have spent half my life on welfare of one sort or another. Years ago, a friend of mine knew some people who were leaving the country for a couple of years. Rather than let the food in their freezer go to waste, they told him to let me pick through it for anything I wanted. I brought a backpack and happily pillaged their freezer for as much as I could carry. The whole time I was doing this, my friend stood nearby looking angry and impatient, telling me to hurry up.

Some time later, this friend told me that he had been embarrassed for me, and was angry that I hadn’t shown any self-respect. He said that picking through other people’s garbage is humiliating, and the fact that I was willing to debase myself for food made him furious. He had apparently discussed this with one of his middle class friends who shook his head sadly and said, “Dignity is the first thing to go on welfare.”

This friend and I are, as you might expect, no longer friends. He ended up “dumping” me after he got a government job and began associating with middle class people. He decided I was a failure and a parasite, and that I was holding him back. Fuck him and good riddance is what I say.

The point of this anecdote is that what you consider to be undignified and humiliating is not likely to be anything close to what a homeless person does. I root happily through restaurant dumpsters, pick through garbage for furniture, and mend my clothes when they wear out instead of buying new stuff – and I do not feel the slightest shame or embarrassment doing so. Don’t be one of those people I’m forced to refer to disparagingly as the petite bourgeoisie by assuming the whole world lives by your middle class, middle brow social mores.

WTF are you talking about? Maggot indeed. It simply staggers me that you call yourself a Christian with all the hate you harbor in your heart and wear like a badge of pride. This is more about you being unwilling to share what you have with your brother because you fear having less. You live in a world of abundance and plenty but choose poverty and want. Then try to justify your choice with a fallacy. Anything you give is tainted and unwholesome by your poisonous attitude. Keep your nickel. They can’t make change for it.

The question poses a false dichotomy. It also lumps all homeless into a single group of people, similar to a Republican view of all homeless as lazy work avoiding substance abusers with no self respect.

One doesn’t give dignity; one treats people with dignity. And one can do that while giving them a sandwich, or five bucks, or a pair of clean socks. The dignity is in offering them some help to make their lives a little bit more comfortable.

I help prepare and serve meals once a month for our local ministerial alliance who feed people that are struggling to survive. I also deliver meals provided through a bi-county organization to seniors and disabled veterans once a week. None of those that the volunteers provide assistance lack dignity or feel disrespected by us.

Society does not provided opportunities for all who are able to work or services for all who have physical and psychological disabilities. Until this reality changes those of us who have been blessed with means should give whatever we can to those in need.

Let’s apply the golden rule, HC. Suppose some absolutely horrible chain of events left you homeless. Which would you prefer – the bare necessities of life or dignity?

I am sure he would be fine with a smug “I will pray for you.”

Yep. Add my “thoughts and prayers”. See how warm they keep you and how much they fill your belly. And let me reference James 2:16; and one of you says to him “Goodbye! Keep warm and well fed.”, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

Poor choices but I’ll say “stuff” since there aren’t any others. The sense of “dignity” that homeless people seem to have is what put them on the street in the first place.

A large number of homeless are mentally ill. I think getting food and keeping warm would be their main concerns.

How about we just drop the ridiculous notion that getting help from others compromises one’s dignity?

First, let’s not confuse dignity with egoistic pride. There’s a misbegotten idea in our culture that one’s sense of worth comes from not being dependent on anyone else. People cherish the illusion that they are “self-made” and that the good things that come their way are evidence of their own merit. The fact is that we all depend on everyone and everything else. Not a single one of us is “self-made”. Recognizing this requires humility and honesty; so much for egoistic pride.

Dignity is different. Dignity comes from the recognition that one is worth just as much as everyone else, no matter what one’s situation. It’s difficult to maintain dignity in a society that keep sending the message that no, if you accept help then you’re worth less. The fact is that the capacity for both giving and receiving help with good grace—which means in a way that preserves the dignity of both giver and receiver—is the redeeming feature of humanity.

@ragingloli @Jak

Like my dad would say – pray in one hand, shit in the other and see which one gets filled faster.

I encourage you to Google my friend’s wonderful “We Are All Homeless” project, where you may begin to get your answer.

However, I believe to truly find the answer you (we) must live go to the street and talk, or better yet live with, homeless people. Not one homeless person but many, for there are as many different answers to your question as the homeless men, women and kids you talk to.

There are 2 aspects to the homeless that most of us never consider & the first is that the epidemic is almost certainly a great deal larger than is visible to us. Like an infestation of bugs, what you see in the open is the overflow from what is hidden. Here there is now an epidemic of small tents and sleeping bags on less frequented streets in commercial areas of the city. In addition there is an alarming number of people living in their cars, old beat up vans, school buses, pickup trucks, etc. Some of these “communities” continue for blocks and the concentrations of people can be beyond belief in hidden places beneath freeways, and in fenced off areas paralleling railway lines, freeways, government land, etc. Lots of these people, particularly the ones with the vehicles have regular humdrum low level jobs, and now 36 years into our homeless problem, the numbers are clearly on the rise. Anyone negotiating the sidewalks in the city’s downtown, financial district, or around any tourist attraction is beset by beggars, some with signs, some with pets, and occasionally some folks inspired to have a little kid with them to up the take. These latter are rare, because the cops clamp down instantly on such setups through child peotective services and the kid is snatched away post haste. The panhandlers work every busy intersection, freeway on or off ramp, any location or event drawing a crowd, they are relentless in their numbers and determined in their endeavors.

The second point is that if you talk to enough homeless people you will begin to appreciate just how easily such a fate might befall what amounts to the “average Joe”. And it’s a creepy realization. That “there but for the grace of God” aspect of the homeless problem probably drives more bills and coins from the pockets of those accosted on the streets than we appreciate. But the bottom line is that there is a failure on the part of our various governments to emphasize the truth. The truth is that armies of homeless people in a land with the wealth of the United States is both shameful and inexcusable.

No amount of money can buy dignity.

I see proof of this fact constantly.

I’m confused by this question. Are you suggesting that giving homeless people food and supplies harms their dignity somehow?

One supports anothers dignity by giving quality things, not sloppy hand me downs.
One of my pet peeves are those who think that poor/homeless people should be grateful for a carton of oatmeal or a shitty pair of used sneakers from a thrift store. If you truly want to give you give quality and that enhances dignity for everyone instead of insulting them. When I have bought bags of food for the homeless I include pet food for those that have pets and QUALITY food, cheeses, fruits, nuts, baked goods, candy, the same food I wish to consume.

I find it disgustingly sanctimonious when people think that a fucking box of oatmeal and a bag of rice and a case of Top Ramen is somehow “giving.” The stereotype welfare food fare that everyone ass-umes another should be grateful for. Sure, if I was truly starving I’d eat your damn .25 cent package of Top Ramen but otherwise, keep your pathetic offerings and I’ll keep my dignity. Nothing worse, amd I mean NOTHING, than some asshole that thinks some poor person should be falling all over themselves for their meager offerings. Pffft!

@Coloma

What exactly is the “quality” barrier?

How is it defined?

Personally, when I give I do so with no expectation of gratitude.

A response of gratitude is pleasant but hardly the objective.

@SecondHandStoke I’ll answer for @Coloma (or at least my take on it): Don’t buy the homeless something of a quality you would not buy for yourself.

^Well fuck.

Those shoes I consider no longer worth maintaining shall end up not keeping one’s feet warm but in a landfill instead.

Every one happy now?

@zenvelo and @SecondhandStoke both have good but conflicting arguments and it’s making my head hurt.

What’s this condition called again? Cognitive dissonance?

I am coming down with a case of cognitive dissonance because of this comment thread.

“Never look a gift horse in the mouth.”

I’ve given GALLONS of Type O blood over the years.

It’s quality is determined not by me, but by knowledgeable third parties.

I’ve given dozens of suits and other articles over the years. The quality is there believe me.

I don’t bother submitting my receipt for tax purposes.

These pieces are given to job applicants.

As a job interviewer I would easily read the situation of the applicant, based on attire and resume’/story.

This individual before me has pennies to his name, perhaps not even an address.

But he generates his own dignity.

@Coloma and others:

Did it ever occur to you that the less fortunate might not even think in the metrics of quality you espouse?

On the other hand, perhaps they can too much:

I was once a part of an event that provided the homeless with a thanksgiving meal.

The main sponsor was Outback Steakhouse.

Understandably, Outback used their corporate banners to attract the attention of the recipients.

Upon discovering that the meal available was traditional Thanksgiving fare and not “signature” OS menu items a riot ensued.

Tables and chairs overturned. Volunteers screamed at.

Draw your own conclusion.

My conclusion was made for me.

Do Justin Beiber and Miley Cyrus deport themselves with dignity?

^^ Comport. Though some have wished that Mr Beiber would deport himself. :-)

Liberalism:

Either what you donated isn’t somehow adequate.

Or your motivation is self serving.

HOW DARE YOU interfere with the Federal goverment’s task of redistributing assets.

^^ Depeortment. Noun.

A person’s behavior or manners.

Ok, you are correct.

@SecondHandStoke If your old shoes are clean, still almost new looking/wearing, fine, but don’t act all self righteous if you give a smelly old pair of scruffy shoes to someone. You can just as easily ask the person what size shoe they wear and go to a Payless shoe store and buy them a new pair of shoes for $20 bucks. “Dignity” is about giving in a manner that you would also enjoy receiving. After decades of financial solvency I was destroyed in the recession and feared becoming homeless.

My friends, most of which have tons of money, have given me quality things like gift cards for popular stores, taken me out for nice dinners helped me with car repairs and given me massage gift cards when they know I am exhausted from everything I have been doing to survive this past 3 three years. I am not saying give a homeless guy a massage gift card but many now poor people and homeless once led good quality lives, I am one of them.
I think you get my jist here, when those that have plenty give crap and feel it should be appreciated, well, that is condescending as hell.

Have I made myself clear enough?

@Zaku Framing the question as one or the other seems to me to come from an assumption that everyone agrees that poverty lacks dignity, which is not at all agreed upon.
Again, when I fail to dot all the ‘I’s, and cross all of the ‘T’s people miss it. I am not saying poverty or being poor deprives everyone in the situation of their dignity, some it does, others it is how people treat them while in that dispensation.

@stanleybmanly Would a home be “stuff”?
I would say a home is more than stuff as it will not get consumed, wear out, or get stolen, etc. but who do you know less the government in very tight conditions that are offering homes to the poor that need them?

The truth is that armies of homeless people in a land with the wealth of the United States is both shameful and inexcusable.
Gadzooks, something we agree on.

@Call_Me_Jay Why would this be an either/or question?
Where did it say they should have one or the other but not both?

@Darth_Algar Having the basic necessities, on the other hand, can do wonders for a person’s dignity.
Let me ask you this, and I know it will be just from your perspective, but if you ended up living off the grit and I drove through in my Maybach Benz rolled down the window and did not bother to even get out of my car as if I were going to catch something from you poor homeless people and tossed out plastic sacks with soap, toothbrushes, granola bars etc. and drove off. Even if you needed some of those things you would feel as good to have them if I had actually stopped and put them in your hand and got to know your name and who you were?

YARNLADY If it means showing someone respect while you appreciate they have needs you can supply them, then why not give them both.
If you show someone some dignity to start, would that not influence what you gave them and how you gave it?

@SmashTheState I brought a backpack and happily pillaged their freezer for as much as I could carry. The whole time I was doing this, my friend stood nearby looking angry and impatient, telling me to hurry up.
So far you seem to be the only one truly able to get it having actually been there. It it not that you need something, but how one give it to you or their perception of you as they give it goes miles to if they give it to you with dignity or just doing so to ease their conscious.

He said that picking through other people’s garbage is humiliating, and the fact that I was willing to debase myself for food made him furious.
He might as well done as so many do, tossed the food out. If he did not want you to debase yourself, why did he not take you to the food store and get you groceries? Why did he even bring up the option for this food if he was thinking anyone who would take someone leftovers was a slacking loser with no self-respect? But that is many who give, not all, but in my experience way too many.

@Jak WTF are you talking about? Maggot indeed. It simply staggers me that you call yourself a Christian with all the hate you harbor in your heart and wear like a badge of pride.
First off, take a deep breath, take that chip off your shoulder and look in the mirror, then go back and read what I ACTUALLY SAID before slinging lies and untruths. I never called the homeless maggots, or said they deserved no dignity. I would reckon I have met more homeless people up front and personal in the last 4 years than you have in the last 2 decades. If I asked you how many good friends do you have that are homeless, not in cars, not surfing couches, but under bridges, in abandoned buildings, etc. how fast could you come up with at least 5 names? I could do so in fewer than 30 seconds; maybe even 20. Before you figure how I see the homeless, best go check yourself before you wreck yourself.

@LostInParadise Let’s apply the golden rule, HC. Suppose some absolutely horrible chain of events left you homeless. Which would you prefer – the bare necessities of life or dignity?
There are always ways to get the basic necessities in life. I have been there and done that. If you are going to give me something but it is all a show to make you look or feel better or to play the ”good saint” but below it you are not doing it because you truly have any care or concern for me, I would likely pass. If you think you are going to toss me a bone like some poor dog you would not even let in your yard but just because others are watching you will set out a dish of water and some bone with no meat just to look good or feel you have to because it will look good for you or the church, or organization you are with, miss me on that. The next person along might actually care and some do. That answers it for you?

@thorninmud @trolltoll How about we just drop the ridiculous notion that getting help from others compromises one’s dignity?
I’m confused by this question. Are you suggesting that giving homeless people food and supplies harms their dignity somehow?
That is not what I am saying; I am saying how those who are well-off give to the poor can edify them or rob them (the poor) of dignity.

@Coloma One supports anothers dignity by giving quality things, not sloppy hand me downs.
One of my pet peeves are those who think that poor/homeless people should be grateful for a carton of oatmeal or a shitty pair of used sneakers from a thrift store. If you truly want to give you give quality and that enhances dignity for everyone instead of insulting them.

I find it disgustingly sanctimonious when people think that a fucking box of oatmeal and a bag of rice and a case of Top Ramen is somehow “giving.” The stereotype welfare food fare that everyone ass-umes another should be grateful for. Sure, if I was truly starving I’d eat your damn .25 cent package of Top Ramen but otherwise, keep your pathetic offerings and I’ll keep my dignity. Nothing worse, amd I mean NOTHING, than some asshole that thinks some poor person should be falling all over themselves for their meager offerings.
Better check my pulse, I agree. To give, as you say, cheap, used up, or very meager means is not the golden rule as people would say. Would you want someone giving you some beat up $80 dollar Nike or some new generic but decent sneakers from Walmart? Some are so down and out that even busted up Nike would be better than nothing but of you can give better, shouldn’t you?

@Coloma LOL.

I already addressed the self righteousness thing. Did you not read all of my posts.

So you assume that if I find shoes “no longer worth servicing” they are otherwise in shit condition.

Hardly.

They have been given the best of care. Aside from no longer being fashionable and needing a new heels or an eventual resole they are nearly perfect.

Tip:

Learn footwear.

Also. You still don’t get it. I CAN NOT ISSUE ANOTHER PERSON DIGNITY.

They either posses it or do not.

@Coloma

“Smelly.”

What have I ever posted here or included in my profile that would give you the impression that I would allow a pair of my shoes to become smelly?

@SecondHandStoke How would I know how you care for your foot wear>
I simply made the statement that a pair of scruffy, smelly, old shoes is not supportive of dignity, I didn’t say YOUR used shoes were scruffy and smelly.
I agree, to a degree about dignity being an inside job as is self esteem, but, I think dignity and self esteem can be interchangable, if not the same thing. A child that gets a new pair of shoes gets self esteem boost, they feel dignified in getting something nice and new opposed to hand me downs.

My point IS that giving crap sends the message that the recipient is only deserving of crap and I disagree and think that if one is going to “give” give in a manner that boosts dignity and self esteem not diminishes it.

Also do not send your outdated canned food to food banks.

A coworker and I were in a coffee shop when we were approached by a homeless man. He spoke to my coworker, named Dave, and asked if Dave would simply shake his hand. Dave stood up and did so.
We discussed this at length the rest of the morning. (My initial comment was about the man just looking for a handout)
It must be difficult at times when people do their best not to notice you. I imagine the homeless can become as hungry for contact and acknowledgement as for food.

^
A coworker and I were in a coffee shop when we were approached by a homeless man. He spoke to my coworker, named Dave, and asked if Dave would simply shake his hand. Dave stood up and did so.
We discussed this at length the rest of the morning. (My initial comment was about the man just looking for a handout)
Sadly too often that perspective is missed or never thought of. From experience to some that goes way more than just a sandwich or a few dollars, to know someone is willing to shake hands with them or get close without seeming like they are cared they will catch a disease or some critters from them. I have seen homeless people act boorish simply because they felt they were slighted by house dwellers or have actually been with those in houses and nice cars thumbing their nose at the homeless. This handshake guy, do you think he would have felt better if your friend would have just tossed a couple of bucks at him and told him to go get something to eat, even if he did need a sandwich as oppose to getting a gentlemanly handshake?

@Coloma

I’ve never been homeless, but when it’s in the low 30’s out I want a coat , not a “message.”

You still aren’t listening to the replies you get from some of us.

You are still ranting.

Who are you to presume what a homeless person wishes for, besides the obvious?

How many calories are in a dignity?

@SecondHandStoke I wouldn’t want a “message” if I needed a coat either.
The replies I am getting from “some” of us? I think that “some of us” is mostly you. haha
Not ranting, sharing my sentiments, which I stand by. I presume most homeless would prefer to be treated like humans not second class citizens and therefore, tossing bread crumbs when one can afford to buy a big basket of bread is demoralizing IMO.

The same goes for handing over cash.
I don’t give a damn what someone spends my few dollars on, if I choose to “give” cash to another adult they can buy whatever they so choose, beer, hamburgers a candy bar, whatever they want. My few bucks isn’t going to enable their heroin habit or other addictions if that’s the case and so what if it does? Whatever it takes to get through their day is my feeling.

To refuse to give a little cash to an adult because one is such a control freak they can’t stand that the person might buy something they don’t approve of, well…take your lousy few bucks and shove ‘em back up into your tight ass. haha

@SmashTheState People that choose to live a decent life, have jobs and can afford to enjoy a few of the finer things in life are not all “petite bourgeoisie” pampered pussy cats, as you once called me some years back for living a decent life.
Lest I remind you it is the working man that is paying for your welfare. If you can choose to take from the class you so despise why is it wrong for the working / middle class people to enjoy some of the fruits of their labors since they are tossing plenty of fruit towards you via their hard earned dollars?
Why have you chosen to be on welfare half your life?

If you are an able bodied 40 something year old guy that has been on welfare for half his life, that means you have never attempted to carve out a self sufficient life for yourself since your 20’s, how do you explain that? So you hate society and the system yet you’re happy to skim off the Petite Bourgeoisie’s hard work.
Just how do you reconcile biting the hand that feeds you anyway?
I lost it all in this recession and have been forced to take state medical benefits much to my humiliation this past few years, but at least I paid into the system for 40 fucking years and continue to work my ass off at the tender age of almost 57 with more than a few aches and pains.

What’s your excuse for your reverse discrimination?
Seriously!

@SecondHandStoke How many calories are in a dignity?
About the same as in love, but some wish to have it anyhow. I guess unless you have been homeless and have people grab their kids tighter when you are in the area, or avoid eye contact with you for fear you will ask them for change. Even if you are hungry to have someone toss you bread as if you were a dog or some nuisance it might be seen in a different light.

@Coloma “Frying-Pan Jack and I were in that camp, that’s where he said to me, he’d been tramping since 1927, ‘I told myself in ‘27, if I cannot dictate the conditions of my labor, I will henceforth cease to work.’ You don’t have to go to college to figure these things out, no sir. He said, ‘I learned when I was young that the only true life I had was the life of my brain. But if it’s true that the only real life I had was the life of my brain, what sense does it make to hand that brain to someone for eight hours a day, for their particular use, on the presumption that at the end of the day they will give it back in an unmutilated condition? Fat chance!’” – Utah Phillips

And just incidentally, your tired “deserving poor” trope is classic petite bourgeoisie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9c1vSIpHA0

@SmashTheState

Oh bite me, you’re so predictable. Feeling the poor and homeless are deserving of decent treatment has nothing to do with the petite bourgeoisie. “Tramping” is fine, but that was in pre-welfare times, tramps of old were not collecting on the government dime of a country and society and class of people they despise. You want to be a tramp, be a tramp, but don’t be a hypocrite and take from the working class while simultaneously dissing them.
Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too. Pffft!

I’ll also add that the “deserving poor” are the mentally ill and addicted and those that want to be helped, not those that exercise their free will to be homeless and expect to be supported by those they deride. Addicts and mentally ill people are victims of their disease but able bodied people that want to be carried by the system while refusing to make any effort to better their lives are exempt from the deserving poor.

@Hypocrisy_Central “Let me ask you this, and I know it will be just from your perspective, but if you ended up living off the grit and I drove through in my Maybach Benz rolled down the window and did not bother to even get out of my car as if I were going to catch something from you poor homeless people and tossed out plastic sacks with soap, toothbrushes, granola bars etc. and drove off. Even if you needed some of those things you would feel as good to have them if I had actually stopped and put them in your hand and got to know your name and who you were?”

Personally I’d think that you were an asshole, but the world’s full of assholes, and I imagine that many people who give to whatever cause are assholes who are just doing it for the tax write-off or to make themselves feel better.

However, I could still use the soap, toothbrush, etc to clean myself up and restore a bit of personal dignity to myself.

Your original question, as phrased, pretty much paints it as an ether/or scenario. It doesn’t have to be.

I haven’t read through this because it came up at a time I couldn’t get to Fluther except via my phone. I have to say that the word “stuff” in the question bothers me a great deal. To me, “stuff” is things that people don’t really need, like salt and pepper collections. Maybe a CD collection. Or another set of Gucci shoes to add to the 50 pairs they already have. Useless “stuff.”

I don’t consider food and shelter “stuff.” And they certainly need food and shelter first, before anything else. Dignity, and other luxuries, come later, after your basic needs are met. And you can’t give people dignity.