Men, what do you find hard to understand about women?

OK, I’ll bite; why does so many (and I am going to say it like that from my experience with them) say it is about personality over looks or if he has an MBA (Massive Bank Account) yet they pass up witty, smart (sometimes wicket smart) logical, compassionate but homely looking men to choose GQ guys, top 10% guys or bad boys with one foot in the grave and the other foot in prison all while being a two-timing womanizer?

You don’t understand woman @Hypocrisy_Central. Not even a tiny bit.

But to answer your question, women are more logical than men. That’s why a rich guy is more apt to “get lucky” than a temporarily good looking one.

I find lots hard to understand about women.

But the more I think about it, I don’t think it matters. What one woman says (or thinks) is not transferable to what another woman things. One woman likes romance, the other doesn’t. One woman like conversation and banter, another likes to listen to music. And so on.

If you had asked the question about specific women in my life or history, that’s one thing. But to generalize and have you tell me something that would pertain to “all women” – not a chance.

Which I would disagree with your last paragraph – “women are more logical..”. Sure, some women are. But all of them (which is what you implied) – no way. You just cannot generalize at that level.

Where do the tall women hang out? I’m finding them hard to find.

Please explain a womans need to shop. Offer a woman to go out to a nice meal or shopping and she will choose shopping.

It used to be the emotional shifts that would blindside me. There are so many traps and pitfalls you have to learn to avoid. Such things as allowing yourself to be pulled into arguments. That’s a big one. You aren’t going to win and you WILL pay dearly for it in the end. I have a standard answer for those who ask the secret of our long marriage, and the wife has a fit every time I mention it. The simple reply is “l do as I’m told”. The other guys hearing this who are involved in long term relationships have the sense to keep their mouths shut or quickly change the subject. But every one of us knows the truth. Oh yes, and for those of you fellas who don’t yet know better, never EVER make the mistake of believing that a practical sensible gift like a power tool to be a demonstration of your good sense when weighed against useless flowers and a trite syrupy greeting card dripping in mass produced sentiment. Last month, I thought I would literally die laughing when my idiot nephew proudly showed me the anniversary present he had bought for his girlfriend of one year. He texted me about his excitement on finding the perfect gift for the girl who was murmuring concerns about gaining weight. Telling me that he was certain this gift would prove that he cared for her snd hung on her every word, he rushed to the closet with his cell phone to proudly exhibit his skills as a loving boyfriend. He dug the box from its hiding place and backed the camera away for me to appreciate the full effect of his shiny new digital bathroom scale.

I hate shopping @Cruiser. My husband seems to like it though.

Please. Give me power tools over flowers any day @stanleybmanly!

There are not enough electrons in the universe* to adequately answer that question – and that would only be my response. I’d have to leave some electrons for others who might attempt a response.

*Nor is there sufficient time.

@Dutchess_III I guess I will just have to call you Dutch here on out! ;)

And note: It does NOT rhyme with “butch!”

Well, guys, give me one example. I’m a girl. A regular girl who does NOT have an STD and maybe I can help!

^Glad you got that STD cleared up.~

I’m going to cry!!!!

There is no action my wife does that I do not understand, granted it took many years to understand all of the little nuances though. There is one thing that seems to defy logic and remains somewhat unexplained and that is her relentless drive to accumulate shoes. It’s a force of nature.

Women are all different, just like men are. People who believe they all think and act the same likely seldom have relationships with others that are deeper than a small puddle.
It’s been my experience that there are just as many clueless women who think men are only really interested in sex and only sex.

^I love shoes.

I’m finding this thread very frustrating.

@Hypocrisy_Central Looks are obviously a factor in finding a partner, just not the biggest factor for most woman. Unfortunately a lot of those shitty guys are good at pretending to be not shitty at first. They’ll drop the pretense once they get what they want.

@stanleybmanly Is it really hard to see why ‘I do what I’m told’ would be obnoxious for a woman to have to hear over and over again when asked about how you keep the peace? It implies that you consider her bossy and unreasonable. Women are so tired of hearing the stereotypes about how we’re shrill and demanding and how marriage is the ends of men’s freedom.

“never EVER make the mistake of believing that a practical sensible gift like a power tool to be a demonstration of your good sense when weighed against useless flowers” The point of a gift isn’t to demonstrate your good sense? Like @Dutchess_III I would also prefer the power tools but flowers are a demonstration that you care, which is a nice sentiment to receive every now and then. It might sound cynical but a gift of tools might look to a woman to be more like a gift to yourself disguised as a gift to her.

@Cruiser I like shopping. Women are judged on their appearance a lot and new clothes and shit make many of us feel good.

I like shopping too. I prefer Amazon so I can stay comfortable.

I never understood women but I wasn’t exactly sure of what the question I wanted answered really was.
Guys who think they know women think you have to get them in the sack by the third date or you land up forever in the “friend zone.” This was a hard bridge to cross for me, not that sex was all I wanted. I wanted a girlfriend. But how to get from point “A” to point “B?” And the third date??? What pressure??? GEEZ!
It took me 30 years to figure it out.
The answer was: Don’t worry about it. Women are the masters of the romance game and if they want you to be more than a friend, they’ll let you know. So don’t worry about it!
And to not worry about any time limits. A guy might get lucky on the first date, or sometime beyond 6 months.
Learn to like her for who and what she is. Be a friend! Don’t worry about some “zone!” If something hot and heavy is going to happen, it’ll happen! When? She’ll let you know!
Too bad I didn’t know this back when I was 15!!!

@Mariah By who? Who is this jury that judges women by the threads they wear and why do women give them this power over them to then judge them by what they wear over who they are inside out? Do clothes then make the woman or does the woman then make the clothes?

Literally all of society? Men judge women on appearance, women judge other women on appearance, we don’t “let” it happen we just don’t want to be social pariahs which is what happens if you’re a women who puts zero effort into her appearance? Is this really new news to you?

@Mariah Not at all…just wanted your perspective…IMO women tend to be much harsher judges of other women’s appearance…often brutal at that.

@Dutchess_III But to answer your question, women are more logical than men. That’s why a rich guy is more apt to “get lucky” than a temporarily good looking one.
I know that, it is as easy as breathing. Over my life I have seen many homely guys become more handsome as their bank account grew or the size of their wallet was revealed; elementary.

@Mariah Looks are obviously a factor in finding a partner, just not the biggest factor for most woman.
Apparently large enough to derail the logic of many (yeah, I said it) women I have observed.

Unfortunately a lot of those shitty guys are good at pretending to be not shitty at first. They’ll drop the pretense once they get what they want.
Yeah, I knew some men like that, the more GQ they were, the better it worked, as easy as tossing a ham bone to a bunch of hungry dogs and thinking they are not going to fight over it and share.

The thing is, it is so transparent why do so many women NOT see right through it?

@Cruiser There really is this awful pressure on women to “look good,” whether it be by other women or men or society or whatever.
I also tend to collect shoes. I don’t know why. I mostly wear flip flops. I guess I have the Imelda Marcos gene.

Because shitty men are super good liars at first @Hypocrisy_Central. So are shitty women.

I wouldn’t choose to go shopping @Cruiser. I’d choose to go out to dinner every time. Not because I love food, but because I’d want to talk to you, interact with you and I do like trying new food and cafes/restaurants. Wouldn’t even have to be a fancy place. I’d still prefer it to shopping.

I do think the notion that ‘women’ can be understood is ridiculous. Just as the idea that ‘men’ can be understood is foolish. We’re all different. Every one of us. Some men like cars and sport, some do not. Some women like shopping and shoes, some do not.

I do like shoes. I have way too many pairs of shoes. I can’t even explain it myself, so I doubt there’s some clear answer as to why many women seem to like shoes.

Man will have mastered space and time LONG before understanding women…...If ever…

Why do women pass up witty, smart, ... logical, compassionate but homely looking men?

Maybe those dudes don’t know how to market themselves.

Where do the tall women hang out?

Outside.

Please explain a womans need to shop

I like to shop because it allows me to focus on something that isn’t the bills or the kid or my job… it’s calming and stress-free. Walking up and down the aisles at Target with a Starbucks, with no plan to buy anything in particular and nowhere to be… It’s basically meditation.

never EVER make the mistake of believing that a practical sensible gift like a power tool to be a demonstration of your good sense when weighed against useless flowers and a trite syrupy greeting card dripping in mass produced sentiment.

Nah. I love tools. But both kind of gifts have their purposes. There’s the “you need this so i got this for you”, and there’s the “just because you’re pretty and I like you”. One is to help you be better, to improve you. The other is just because.

Now, my usual “pretty and I like you” gift from my hubby is roadkill and chocolate and gin. Nothing i need, but things I like. (I collect bones). But, I have a vase with the dried bud every flower he’s ever given me in eleven years. About twice a year he’ll bring one home, and it’s just a little special thing. Never for any reason. It’s very sweet.

That said, I’ve been begging for a new jigsaw for freaking EVER.

@Earthbound_Misfit True, some men like cars and sports and boats and horses and all kinds of stuff, just like women.
BUT! When it comes to women and men, men think about sex ALL THE TIME! It’s what drives us! It’s who we are! It’s what we are. We are penises! Walking talking penises! We think about sex more that anything else, and for longer periods of time. What’s hard to understand about that??
Women are something else entirely, and that’s why they are so hard to understand. They don’t think about sex ALL THE TIME.
Men want to believe that women think about sex the way men do, but they don’t. Women want to believe that men don’t think about sex all the time, but they do. Hence, IMO, the problem.

@kritiper, that would need another question entirely “Do men think about sex all the time?” Perhaps you think about sex all the time. Perhaps some women think about sex all the time. Do ALL men think about sex all the time? I doubt it. However, I can’t read minds, so I’ll never know. Just like if we ever met, you wouldn’t know if I was thinking about whether I can get the waiter to bone me. Highly unlikely, but you just never know. I really think men are a little more complicated than walking penises. I certainly think the men in my life are.

@Earthbound_Misfit Every guy I have ever known thought about sex all the time. Your answer is just what I would expect from a woman. Maybe you should journey to Mars sometime, then you’ll see!

@ARE_you_kidding_me up there is a dude saying he’s frustrated that some women think men only think about sex. This is probably why that happens: some men say that men do only think about sex, and some women believe them. I am with @Earthbound_Misfit on this, I tend to give men a little more credit on this than you probably think I should, @kritiper! I don’t honestly believe that men and women are all that inherently different. I do think society pushes us apart, but I think we’re probably more similar than we give each other credit for. For the most part.

Can you read men’s minds @kritiper? I think you should ask another question. I’d be really interested to see if the other men on this site feel they think about sex all the time. It’s a fascinating question.

@Mariah We can discuss it some more when you get back.

I hate shopping. I hate makeup. I own three pairs of shoes: flip flops, boots and sneakers. I don’t care if women perceive me as a social pariah. If they do I don’t want to waste my time on them.

Take me out to eat! it better not be Olive Garden.

@Earthbound_Misfit and @kritiper: I think a good question for someone to pose on Fluther is “Men: Do you think about sex all the time, some of the time or how often?” I’d ask it myself but right now I’m running late in my morning routine to get to work.

@Mariah Oh we think about it all the time. That just comes with the territory of being a guy. The mistake is in thinking that it’s all we are after. That may be true for a 17 year old but they are not usually old enough to understand what they really want yet. The truth is most of us actually want the same kind of emotional connection with our ladies that they want from us. It takes some guys a while to really get it because the pervasive nature of our sex drive obfuscates that little fact. Once we have that connection there is absolutely nothing that we won’t do for you. Deny us that deep love and it will wreck us on the inside. That is the honest truth for nearly all of us whether we know it yet or not.

There’s something to be said about the fact that this went from a conversation about women’s minds to one about what men think about.

It’s kind of tied in @Seek. It’s the reason so many men do not “understand” women. Many men simply can not fathom that sex isn’t on our minds as constantly as it is on theirs. I have actually had a couple of guys tell me, “If you try to tell me that women don’t think about sex as much as men, you’re a liar.”
If we try to explain that we aren’t as stimulated by the sheer physical and visual as men are, we’re lying again. HC comes out and says as much, all the time.

@Dutchess_III this topic seems to border on a obsession for you. I guess I don’t completely understand that.

I’m just saying if men (in general) shut up and listen once in a while instead of changing the subject, over-talking, mansplaining, or claiming we’re shrill or bitchy when we assert ourselves, maybe we wouldn’t have so much of a communication problem.

This “men don’t understand women” thing is an artifact of the societal silencing of women.

We’re “allowed” a few sexist comic strips and TV commercials that poke fun at men for being stupid and clueless, and we’re supposed to be satisfied that such things make us equal.

It’s really easy to get a man to understand you, as long as you’re willing to talk to him and he is willing to listen.

We have to break the societal conditioning to stay quiet and expect some dude to understand what’s going through your head by telepathy (or more accurately, keep it to yourself as long as he’s happy).

@Seek there are two sides to that coin of course.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I started this thread based on another user saying women were such a mystery to men. I seriously wanted to know why that was. I was thinking of the psychology. However, somewhere up there it turned to sex.

Wow. There is is again. On another thread (which was not started by me,) a male user said, “Being understood by men is not in women’s interest, just like being understood by women is not in a man’s interest. 1) because mystery is far sexier than the naked truth; 2) because there’s so much they don’t need and don’t want to know.
The dirty little secret of course is that men and women are pretty much the same animal… :-)

No, we’re not. And there is no reason for it to be a “dirty little secret.” That’s ridiculous.

I believe I covered both sides in my post, but thanks for the condescension.

Well, we are fundamentally the same and it’s no secret. A few different quirks sure but we really are not that different. On the whole there are some trends but individually it all breaks down. You have been on this topic long before the comment on that last thread.
@Seek not trying to be condescending even if it sounded that way.

How are we fundamentally the same?

Um, pretty much in every way except for some minor dimorphic traits related to gender. We still all have the same behavior, basic physiological needs, diet, social interaction, thought processes…etc, etc. Yes we are still technically different but it is not like the difference between dogs and cats. We are not so different that we can’t get along or understand each other.

I think a lot of the difficulties around this topic come with the mixup between those characteristics differentiating men from women that are inherent to our genders with the arbitrary traits inflicted on us by the societies in which we are immersed. Seek’s complaints clearly illustrate this sort of crap, and resistance to the societal aberrations is an exceedingly troublesome obstacle to figuring out our actual differences.

If you gona quote me on another thread, you might as well mention the author… Jus saying

That would seem rude @olivier5. But if you want to take the credit for for that, be my guest.

Above I posted ” Many men simply can not fathom that sex isn’t on our minds as constantly as it is on theirs. I have actually had a couple of guys tell me, “If you try to tell me that women don’t think about sex as much as men, you’re a liar.””

And damn, if the very next post I read, in the other thread, where we were specifically talking about sex from a woman’s POV vs a man’s POV, was from you @olivier5, saying, ”The dirty little secret of course is that men and women are pretty much the same animal… :-)”

Of course I want to take credit for that. Yes, men and women are the same species. We are brothers and sisters, remember? “Of the same flesh”.

All women think like men. All women react to the same physical stimuli as men. We just don’t know it. Well, actually, we do know it. But we are ashamed. That’s why it has to be a “dirty little secret.”

Oh is it the “dirty little secret” that gets you all angry? I mean yes it’s a secret, and it’s not that big of a secret (as i said, it’s standard feminist theory since the 70s); and “dirty” because it has to do with sex… Don’t over-react to a turn of phrase.

Imagine the crash in Wall Street the day girls figure out that boys don’t really like make-up that much? May this day never come! It would save unknown numbers of living creatures to just drop the whole maquillage folly, but NO! That would spell the end of l’Oréal so it won’t happen.

All these valentine days, all these diamonds, all these sport cars can’t get sold if we think of men and women as essentially the same. Or rather, these businesses will have to adapt to a truly equal world. I have no doubt they can sell us lingerie, a couple of decades down the line…

You think sex + women = dirty. I don’t. None of the women I know here, or anywhere else, do either. It’s a throwback to the early 60’s and before. Which tells us you’re pretty old.

Why would we care if ”...boys don’t really like make-up” We don’t do what we do to please men. We do it to please ourselves. Can you not grasp this? Again, a very antiquated concept.

If you’d bothered to read this, you’d have learned that most of us don’t wear make up any more because it no longer pleases us.

Who said anything about women being “dirty”. I said (jokingly) SEX IS SEEN AS “DIRTY”. SEX. NOT “WOMEN AND SEX”.

I am saying men and women are essentially the same, and you’re saying they are not, and somehow I AM THE SEXIST ONE? ‘splain this to me.

Do you understand better if I use big letters?

“We don’t do what we do to please men” Of course you do, to a degree anyway. You would not still be married if you did not. I can’t count the amount of stuff I do to keep my wife happy. There is certainly quite a bit she does in return. That’s what a partnership is all about.

One of the many things I don’t understand about women is their fascination for overpriced health and beauty products. Can’t you see that most of this stuff is a giant con?

@ARE_you_kidding_me I didn’t mean we don’t work to please individual men…and women and anybody in our lives. We may change our behaviors, or whatever to help keep relationships smooth.
I meant I don’t think there is as much pressure to please random men in society. Gosh, my mom never went out anywhere, not even to the grocery store without doing her hair and make up. Pretty sure that was true for most women of her generation. Not so much with mine.

I don’t think sex is dirty @olivier5.

^^ good for you. It was just a joke, not aiming at women at all but at this consumerist con job that gender roles have become.

Have become? Like it’s something new? Oh, ROFLOLL!!!

@Dutchess_III I started this thread based on another user saying women were such a mystery to men. I seriously wanted to know why that was.
That would be why women are so inconstant, not all of them, but some women say this but really mean and want that, so the truth is like trying to read a politician.

Women seem crazy to men. But it’s not their fault. Their personalities are in constant change, and logic is usually not relevant to something they are mad about.
Also, women seem incapable of coexistence with each other. I had the privilege of working with some of the smartest, strongest, best women I ever knew for about 10 years. Even they could not stop ‘talking shit’ about each other, even though they were all ‘friends. ’ When you work in a job with 90% female employees, they simply can’t get along. They are constantly working angles against each other and the prettiest girl gets it the worst. And the prettiest is the one they are nicest to ,to her face. But behind the scenes women work like politicians, trying to discredit each other.

As a man. I just try not to get involved. I assume that since they say awful things behind each other’s back, they must say bad things about me behind my back as well. Their insecurities are a mystery to me, as they all have much in common, and the motivation for their desire for ‘drama’ seems to trump all logical sense. If there isn’t drama, they create it. They seem unable to understand that people aren’t trying to undermine them.

But I don’t blame women for this. It seems to simply be in their nature.
We (men)are constantly confused by the ever changing personalities of the women we interact with. The same remark on Tuesday may get a completely different reaction on Wednesday.

We (men) are sex crazed, but consistent. I wish women would simply give us the slack I give them. We simply are what we are. It’s nothing personal….

^ Also, women seem incapable of coexistence with each other. I had the privilege of working with some of the smartest, strongest, best women I ever knew for about 10 years. Even they could not stop ‘talking shit’ about each other, even though they were all ‘friends
Why have enemies when you can have frienemies? I have seen that too, however, no one would believe it if I had said it. It is part of the inconstancy women display.

They are constantly working angles against each other and the prettiest girl gets it the worst.
Yup seen that too, it is almost as if the attractive women challenge the validity of the intelligence of the not so attractive women, or accentuate something they can achieve, the ”eye apple” of the men in the office even though they try to thrust themselves in the feminist front, at the core, they want to be sexy and seen so by men, even if subconsciously.

@MrGrimm888 We (men)are constantly confused by the ever changing personalities of the women we interact with. The same remark on Tuesday may get a completely different reaction on Wednesday.

There’s some truth to that: Women are less stable than men, more mercurial, on average of course. Still it doesn’t amount to a big mystery. They are more atuned to their emotions than we are.

I wish women would simply give us the slack I give them.

I don’t think they all are naggers and men haters, though some are. There are also men who hate women…

Yeah. I’ve never heard a group of men at the bar sit around and talk shit about the guy who just left. ever. ::eyeroll::

@olivier5, for men like myself, I search for consistency in nature , so I can understand it. Women’s personalities lack consistency. It’s not a ‘Big mystery, ’ but if you’re trying to figure them out, so you can date them, or simply coexist with them, you won’t find many patterns, except for lack of a pattern. Or complete understanding that their personalities change,quickly, in no chronological order, in no predictable way,with or without external or internal provocation of change.

And God forbid women get angry (not slightly angry .)
Good luck talking them off that ledge. Even if they do settle down, they’ll carry whatever offense (real,or conceived ) in storage. To be brought up long after a man thinks it’s water under the bridge. Usually in another emotional, knee jerk moment (with or without provocation. )

Don’t get me wrong. Men in my neck of the woods will fight over a bump of the shoulders, or over minor shoe contact. But then it’s done. After a brief show of power, both men ‘earn’ each other’s respect. (Not always,but usually. )
Men get it out of their systems, and move on with life.
Women carry each issue for much longer. Taking most things personally, instead of actual, real life happenstance.

I guarantee there’s not a man in the world who didn’t have a huge argument with a woman, where he wasn’t even sure what the woman was mad about. I’m pretty sure that the females don’t know what they’re mad about some of the time either. Just emotionally spun. Unable to correct course. Unwilling to be peaceful and unwavering in their anger.

One time my ex found one of my bandannas next to my bed,and thought it was some other girl’s panties. I kept trying to just get her to LOOK closer. I ended up arguing with her down a mile of street or so. She eventually cried herself to sleep many stressful hours later. Over my FUCKING bandanna….

Men suck. But we’re usually predictable in our suckiness.

Definitely predictable. I know dudes that will talk shit about a dude over something that happened 25 years ago. And the same goddamn story will come up every damn time the dudes are together.

@MrGrimm888 Women’s personalities lack consistency. It’s not a ‘Big mystery, ’ but if you’re trying to figure them out, so you can date them, or simply coexist with them, you won’t find many patterns, except for lack of a pattern. Or complete understanding that their personalities change,quickly, in no chronological order, in no predictable way,with or without external or internal provocation of change.

That’s fine with me. It used to give me pause when in my 20’s but since decades now, I’ve just treated them the way they treat me. IMO, the mistake many men do when trying to deal with women is they try to deal with them as a (good) man would be expected to deal with women as per the ‘gentleman book’ so to speak, i.e staying within the gender roles attributed to men. But women have taken liberty with the gender roles attributed to them, so why should we stick to an obsolete view of how a man should be behaving?

My wife is quite temperamental, but I can handle her. My rule is simple: if she shouts on me, I shout on her; if she hits me, I hit her back; if she gives me the sillent treatment for a few days, I give her the silent treatment for a week. Talion’s law, or even escallation. It does lead to less and less disputes, like nuclear weapons led to less world wars, by substantially raising the cost of any dispute. Makes her think twice before she starts the next frivolous argument. The downside is: we’re dangerously close to divorce anytime any argument starts.

I’m not ashamed of behaving like a girl, I’m in touch with my feminine side here. :-)

None of that sounds healthy.

@olivier5. Sharing an opinion, and how we deal with opinions is a separate matter.
I respect your privacy and rights to your own relationship. But you live by different standards than I.

That being said, I am currently single, so maybe you know better than I.

I don’t have the heart to treat women the way they treat me. Perhaps when I was younger, I wasn’t a saint. Maybe it’s karma.

@Dutchess_III What do you think about this so far??

@kritiper I just got back here. I find it interesting. For example Women’s personalities lack consistency. What does that even mean? I can describe the personality of every woman I’ve ever known. At my 40 year class reunion, the women (and men) had the same personalities they had 40 years ago. So I’m not sure what that’s referring to. Perhaps the hormonal flux we have a few days out of the month?

Also, to pick another, ”logic is usually not relevant to something they are mad about.” Again, I don’t know what that means. A “for example, [insert personal experience here]...” would be nice. Preferably experiences from more than just one woman.

All that has been said of women so far can be said about men, as well.

@olivier5 I’m glad that works for you, but I don’t understand how you two haven’t developed a better way to communicate. Yours sounds like an eye for an eye type of relationship. I personally would want no part of it.

”…if she shouts on me, I shout on her; if she hits me, I hit her back; if she gives me the sillent treatment for a few days, I give her the silent treatment for a week.” Wow. You just have to prove you’re more bigger than her. “Oh, you want to be an asshole? I’ll show you what a REAL asshole is like!”
The maturity is mind boggling.

@chyna I got the same reaction to @olivier5 answer as you. My wife could crack a 2×4 over my head and I would say to myself…hmmm, I must have deserved that and sit down and discuss matters with her and never under any circumstance would I ever strike her back. Wouldn’t cross my mind.

Ever.

I would never hit my husband either.

Oh it’s not always that bad. I’d say we argue 10% of the times now. Used to be more like 50%.

She slapped me once years ago, à la Scarlett O’Hara. I slapped her back. Never happened again. Nowadays it’s more the nagging and silent treatment. Or the argument, which to be fair we DO manage marginalky better than before.

We got good things going for us too. Excellent meetings of minds on most things. Complementarity of intelligence (I can read math, she can read minds). Interesting enough sex. Best cuddling I ever had. Best massages any of us could find with any other partner.

I know her and she knows me. We still like each other enough to stay together.

It’s not fair if women can be verbally aggressive and men cannot. Be a gentleman with a lady, i can play that game. Being a ruffian with a ruffian is not out of the cards for me either. I give it as I get it. I’m no gender Gandhi, and I don’t think men should be gender Gandhis. Treating women as some sort of fragile chinaware is passé. Women are big enough to go fishing and hunting in my country, so they can take an argument. Otherwise it wouldn’t be fun anyway.

You argue 10% of the time? Why? What’s wrong with your relationship?

I can’t imagine spending that much time fighting. I’ve been with my husband for eleven years and I could probably count on one hand the number of actual arguments we’ve had.

He reminds of the time my ex beat the socks off of an 8 year old in ping pong. My ex was all strutting around like a peacock, so proud of himself, like he’d just won the world series. I told him he was disgusting.

Wife and I almost never argue. 10% is too much

I donno, not keeping a record… Maybe it’s less.

I could have lived the calmest of all marriages with someone else. I was raised in a very quiet family, resolutely non-emotional. Talkative but in a calm rational way. Never talking about affects much, no cuddling and any of that either. A few largely forgettable affairs later, I met her, and it’s never been going as planned ever since.

My mother was ice, my wife is fire. You don’t tame fire but you can live with it and get a bit warmer everyday next to it. Who cares if you get burnt once in a while.

It’s the person doing the burning who say, ”Who cares if you get burnt once in a while.” In other words, get over it.

@Mariah I know flowers are a sign that you care. However, if my husband ever gave me flowers that would show me that he doesn’t care that I find them an utter waste of good money.
And if he gave me a power tool I’d know that it was for me, and not a gift for himself in disguise. (I hide all my tools from him anyway, so he’d never get to use it. He tends to use them and they just…... disappear.)

@MrGrimm888 I guarantee there’s not a man in the world who didn’t have a huge argument with a woman, where he wasn’t even sure what the woman was mad about. I’m pretty sure that the females don’t know what they’re mad about some of the time either.
Ha! I have been through that and seen it, the woman will get mad in the present over something that happened months or even years ago, or something the ex had done. If I did something that reminded her of what HE did, but it was nothing like what HE did, I got the flak for it because HE was gone but I was there, so because she was unable to drop it like it was hot, I had to keep getting burned because she wanted to carry that hot skillet around.

@olivier5 My rule is simple: if she shouts on me, I shout on her; if she hits me, I hit her back; if she gives me the sillent treatment for a few days, I give her the silent treatment for a week.
That probably irked the consciousness of the feminist horde, if a woman is man enough to punch a man the man should be a chump and take it and not hit her back because he is bigger and stronger. Guess that is one notion the OJ trial drummed into people.

@Hypocrisy_Central
”I guarantee there’s not a man in the world who didn’t have a huge argument with a woman, where he wasn’t even sure what the woman was mad about.”

It’s called a shit test and is simply part of the human courtship ritual.

Um…”....man enough to punch?” WTF? That is simply disgusting, low trash behavior. I don’t care who is doing it.

And yeah. If she’s low class enough to go around whacking men, a real man wouldn’t hit back. Leave her? Yes. Especially if it’s an ongoing thing. But hit? No.

Why would you even consider staying with a women who has no qualms about hurting you?

^^ I gave my reasons already, but here’s more: We still love each other; we still desire one another and have great sex pleasurable for both of us; beyond sex we have great phisical intimacy (cuddling and massaging); we can discuss politics, religion, philosophy or even sex in a genuine way (not small talks, real talks) and we share enough similar taste in music, movies, books etc. We still enjoy being together most of the times. Apparently that’s more than you can say.

I don’t care much for failing to be the ideal couple. Have little respect for ideals in general and for tightly-regimented gender roles in particular.

Why do you stay with your husband, @Dutchess_III ? From what you’re saying, the guy has no conversation and he’s boring in bed and he loses your tools and what not, and yet you’re still with him… Life is complicated.

@Hypocrisy_Central That probably irked the consciousness of the feminist horde, if a woman is man enough to punch a man the man should be a chump and take it and not hit her back because he is bigger and stronger.

Anyone pretending that men and women have completely different psychology is NOT a feminist. True feminists in my book are equalitarian. That doesn’t imply absolute identity but it implies that there’s no hierarchy between the sexes. True feminists don’t look down on men, they consider us as they consider any other female. The women (and men) who look down on men are just as sexist as the men (and women) who look down on women. It’s all pretty simple.

About fighting physically with a woman. Wife and I do that occasionally for fun. Usually nobody gets hurt, it’s just wrestling. Obviously we are both “pulling our punches”, i fight at 20% of what i can do or so, and she fights at 50% of her strength maybe? She likes it because as a girl she could never fight like boys do all the time. The point is: it’s a great thing to do as a couple, it releases the aggressivity and teaches mutual respect, while good for cultivating physical intimacy. But you have to be very careful as the strongest party, and she needs to trust you that you know what you’re doing. I find my judo practice as a kid useful because judo is all about resisting rather than attacking.

I never said he was boring in bed, LOL! Even if he was it wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me.

And losing my tools does not compare to hitting a smaller, defenseless person.

And you’re quickly back tracking on your original claims of you guys hitting each other when you get into arguments. Now is all for fun. You did the same thing when you brought up your teenaged son’s masturbation habits, then quickly backtracked on what you said originally.

You should learn to think before you speak the first time.

YOU are backtracking now. On the other thread you kept complaining about it.

It would be a deal breaker for me if my wife didn’t like me in bed or vice versa. That she slapped me once a long time ago is not. That we have regular disputes is neither. But I can’t live with a woman without physical, emotional and intellectual intimacy. You apparently can accept all this but cannot accept a slap. We just don’t have the same priorities, that’s all.

Complaining about what? That he loses my tools? He does! So I hide them! I believe I only mentioned it once.

I said if he was boring in bed, (and he’s not) it would not be a deal breaker for me. My feelings run deeper than the mere physical.

I thought you prefered pleasuring yourself? Maybe for once, I’m the one who misunderstood you rather than vice versa.

Anyway, let’s not judge each-other’s marriage. To each his own.

@olivier5 True feminists in my book are equalitarian.
Then they must be hiding pretty good because I never met any like that,

I have met a handful but in general no, while it preaches egalitarianism it usually does not live up to it. As mentioned before there is no core set of goals anymore, it’s vague and tends to be a projection of each individual feminists hope and fears. Most of the barriers that women faced have been torn down so there is this “what now” vibe to the whole thing. there are still major things to do for women and us guys have a big role to play even if it’s calling out the toxicity and hypocrisy of some of it.

“Most of the barriers that women faced have been torn down”

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….

I feel sorry for you if that is how you really feel.

I feel sorry for women who can’t make their own reproductive choices due to fucked-up legislation. But y’know, whatever.

@Seek Blame the religious right for that bullshit and notice I did not say everything. There are plenty of female anti-abortion activists who will tell you to burn in hell simply because you had a horrible choice to make. IMO that’s not so much a feminist thing but more of a basic human rights issue. That’s perhaps one of the major exceptions though.

@ARE_you_kidding_me while it preaches egalitarianism it usually does not live up to it.

Well yes, egalitarianism is an ideal.

“There are plenty of female anti-abortion activists” Nobody’s saying all women are feminists.

“IMO that’s not so much a feminist thing but more of a basic human rights issue.” A basic human rights issue…where the humans involved are exclusively female….so, yes, a feminist issue.

Just wanted to throw in that abortion is NOT exclusively involving females. This goes further from the thread, but men should be more involved. Some women get abortions without telling the father. Indeed, it is her body, but the fetus is half his.
Not saying women shouldn’t be allowed to have abortions without the father’s consent, but the process needs amendment. As the father’s role is often not even considered.

On the flip side, there are many fathers who want the woman to have an abortion, and the woman doesn’t.

Some women use children as a source of income. It’s better now after welfare reform, but still happening thanks to child support.

So if I donate a kidney to a man, and he experiences side effects from having my kidney, I get to have a say in whether he can have it removed because it’s partly mine, right? No. The person whose body the thing is in has the autonomy over the thing.

How on earth could having a child be used for income? They have the expense of having a child to take care of. Child support is to cover that.

Good question @Mariah. I was wondering the same freaking thing.

Yeah. I’m just an evil woman hater. No eyes or ears to observe what’s going on in my neighborhood. If only I would stop oppressing women. And not care if my girlfriend terminates our child. She should bare as many kids as I want, when she’s not plowing the fields and taking care of all the stupid men. Men are just oppressors, and slavers. ~~

How is a donated kidney in ANY way similar to a fetus? And I simply wished there were a different process. Never said the man should be able to make a woman’s decision for her. Are you really so incapable of seeing a man’s point of view in some situations?

How do women make a living off of children? I’m not sure what country you’re in, but in America it’s quite simple. I’m sure no woman ever spent $300 of her child support money on her hair right?
I was simply pointin out some details. Not making sweeping references to all women.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why ,even when I try to write deliberately, some here take it personally and run with it.

That’s one thing I don’t understand about women.

You have yet to explain how a woman having children creates an income for her.

Dutchess. I was referring to child support, tax benifits, and food stamps. It’s not a comfortable living, but it is a living. And before I get my head chopped off again for nothing, yes these are a very, very small representative of the female population. But they exist. In America anyway. If you have child support, that is the definition of ‘income,’ money, coming in…

You never knew or saw a woman spend child support money on anything but their child?

I would also like to preemptively say that usually the child support should be way more, and is justly deserved. My statements were merely to bring related subjects into the thread.
If you choose to be offended by imagined sayings, that’s up to you. I prefer to get mad if someone actually said or did what I’m accusing them of.

Child support, if you can even get it, never covers even half of the expenses.

Food stamps ok. But you can’t use it for, say toilet paper or cleaning supplies or tooth paste. Cash assistance is NOT enough to live on and you don’t get more just because you have more children.
If you do qualify for it the state takes your child support. If you get any.

Yes. It’s a messed up system. But indeed, the more children, the more child support. It’s possible and factual that a very small amount of women eak out an existence this way. Subsidized housing, food stamps, child support, and tax benifits combined can provide a ‘livable income.’

I don’t envy ANY woman who has to rely on child support. Or any man who has to pay it. Or any child that has to be raised in such circumstances. But it is what it is. I wish there was a better alternative.

I’m going to try to pull this thread into, hopefully, less controversial subject matter.

So the other day, my roommate (a female ) threw away our bathroom trash can ‘because it was dirty. ’

Years ago a different female was my roommate in a different place, and she threw away our main trash can ‘because it was dirty.’ Her husband refused to buy another because he didn’t agree with why she threw it away. Nor did I buy one for the same reason. So we just had no trash can.

That’s something I don’t understand about women. If something still functions, to me it still has value. WTF? It’s a trash can. It’s supposed to be dirty.

@Mariah The person whose body the thing is in has the autonomy over the thing.
”The thing”? Well, I guess to be totally feminist equal then the man should have the right to opt out on a child he either did not know if or knew of but did not want, after all, why should she be the sole gatekeeper to parenthoods for the both of them? He should be able to walk away, sever all ties to the child and she rises the child on her own, she wanted it, she takes care of it, that would be TOTALLY FAIR.

^That oversimplifies , and undermines my serious problems with abortions.

I’m all for abortions, and wish there were more.

I just know a couple guys that had no choice in the process and were deeply heart broken. I wanted to give them a voice. It’s a complex situation, with no good compromise. It’s her body,her choice. But sometimes the father’s feelings are invalidated, or ignored. I don’t like that part. But I guess if you want children in some situations, you were just born the wrong gender.

It’ssad to me that sometimes you ,as a man, have absolutely no control over how your ‘baby Momma’ treats herself during pregnancy, or decides to terminate . Men essentially have no reproductive rights…. That’s all I was saying.

^ It’s her body,her choice.
That is a big cop out and a lie people tell themselves to justify the selfish murder of the voiceless. He body, if that is so concrete let her try and sell a kidney on Ebay, or even through a Web site she created, what about a spleen, or her corona? If she can’t even rent her vagina out to horny men in the evening, how can she have ”her body” to do as she pleases? She can’t openly sell any part of her body, the ”her body” rhetoric is old and senseless.

^Uugh…. HC . That comment was ‘old and senseless.’

It’s really ‘her body. ’ And her body has rights. (In some states. )

I hope you don’t think abortion is an easy decision. Most women I know that had them, well , it was a big deal.
I know one, who is an anomaly ,who has had like 6, and at least two miscarriages, and 4 children from 4 different men. One child is half black, so she doesn’t have anything to do with him. But ,again, she’s a special anomaly.

I can’t imagine the courage (not sure that’s the best word) it takes to walk into an abortion clinic. And make (if you’re there for a reason ) a decision that is best for you and the potential child. I respect those women. And because I know how grey this world is, I would prefer to never ask them about it.

I’m happy that women have that option. I just hope they don’t abuse it,like the woman I mentioned.

A kidney is part of your body, a fetus is a person that needs your body to survive.

And nobody has the right to use my body to survive.

If my sister needed a blood transfusion to stay alive and I was the only one who could give it to her, I would not be obligated to do so. Legally, nobody can make me give her my blood. Even if I was the one who caused the car accident and put her into such a state. Because we have bodily autonomy.

@MrGrimm888, I do not see where I called you an evil woman hater or anything of the sort. I am only trying to refute some of your points about abortion and child support.

I have heard people here use that blood donation argument before. I don’t think there are any hard lines with abortion I think it’s all grey. I don’t think life begins at conception in any practical sense and if the woman wants an abortion early there should be no questions asked. Period. I also think outside of medical necessity having an abortion at eight and a half months pretty much is infantacide.
Sure you don’t have to give blood to save someone’s life but that does not mean you are not a horrible waste of a human life for refusing.

Sure you don’t have to give blood to save someone’s life but that does not mean you are not a horrible waste of a human life for refusing.

But legally, you can’t make me. That’s all I care about in this discussion, because it implies abortion should be legal for as long as the infant is dependent on me to survive. I don’t care if you think someone is a horrible person for their decision, because that decision is still legally theirs to make.

You can even put aside any kind of debate about when life starts because even if my 5 year old needs my blood the father cannot make me give it to her. That is why I think the decision of abortion should be totally up to the woman. Pregnancy and childbirth are medical prodcedures and nobody can force me to go through a medical procedure.

I suppose my issue with the blood donation argument is that someone else can step up and donate when one person refuses. A fetus has only one person to rely on. This is a very grey issue for me though. Once the baby is born it is still dependant and if the mother/ guardian refuses to care for it and it dies out of neglect it’s a criminal offense. A child has rights too and it’s unfortunate they are somewhat entangled with a woman’s rights. I’m not so sure where that line needs to be drawn.

Yeah the dependence is totally different to me once it’s dependence on my services, not dependence on using my body. Blood donation might not be the best example for the reason you cite but if you imagine something more exclusive like marrow donation, where there might be just one match, there is still no legal obligation, ever, to undergo a medical procedure.

Agreed. I guess with abortion I still can’t define any clear line. Too many contingencies and buts and what ifs. Legally though part of me feels like there should be some protections for a fetus if it has been allowed to develop to a state where it could be born and there are no complications. Abortion itself is an elective medical procedure. Equal rights need to really mean equal but this is not so cut and dry.

“I’m all for abortions, and wish there were more.”…I have never, in my life, heard anyone talk about abortions in such a way. I didn’t know there was a single soul out there that was “all for abortions.” Maybe you think it’s no big deal. But it is.
Having said that, it’s the woman’s decision. She has to live with the decision, for better or worse, as I have for the last 40 years.

^Dutchess. There are 7 billion people on this planet. The vast majority live in poverty or worse. People having babies when they’re too young or too poor isn’t helping anything. The people who oppose abortion usually oppose government aid as well. Abortion,if utilized more often, would alleviate some suffering in this world. That’s my position. Sorry if it wasn’t stated in better taste.

I’m just saying your the first person I’ve ever heard say such a thing. I can guarantee you no woman feels that way.

I don’t speak for all women Dutchess, or for anyone but myself.

I could’ve said that women should be more careful about who they have unprotected sex with, but that would no doubt be met with a firestorm of hate. Although I prefer that to abortions.

As to abortions the reason it has to be ultimately the woman who decides (hopefully with father in the loop) is that childbirth is not risk-free. Over the last 5 years I have known of 2 women who have died giving birth. Childbirth is much safer than it was but it is still a risk.

This thread makes me want to hug my husband. I’ve never been in competition with him. We support one another as best we can. We talk and laugh together. He knows me and I know him. I couldn’t imagine my life without him. And I think the last time we fought was ten years ago.

@MrGrimm888 It’s really ‘her body. ’ And her body has rights.
Sorry my friend, but that comment was delusional and self-centered. Be it god, nature, whatever, humans starting out in the womb of the female is how humans are created. If humans were hatched from eggs or spores there might be a different argument. That ”thing” (as some would want to call it) is not a tumor, not some cyst, etc. the body when ready will eject it, it will not stay there like any parasite living off the woman, nor will it take her over. At what point does this ”tissue” becomes human enough for people to give a damn about it as they would some sentient automaton?

I know one, who is an anomaly ,who has had like 6, and at least two miscarriages, and 4 children from 4 different men. One child is half black, so she doesn’t have anything to do with him. But ,again, she’s a special anomaly.
I could say something of her and it would not be an anomaly, but I will be kind and keep it to myself.

I can’t imagine the courage (not sure that’s the best word) it takes to walk into an abortion clinic.
Only if they have to perp walk by prolife supporters who will see their face, but I would surmise once they got home, got some rest and know they can go bikini shopping for summer, to hook another guy to boink and get knocked up again, they are cool. Oh snap, can put it out there that real, some might bet pissed off.

HC , I feel like you’re not ‘putting yourself in her shoes.’(the woman seeking abortion )

I’m sure there are some women as shallow as you mentioned. But that’s surely not the majority of women. I’m sure it is a soul shaking decision.

Like Dutchess shared with us. She still thinks about it.

Just remember: these rabid pro“life” people care absolutely nothing about the fetus once it’s breathing room air.

That baby you “saved” then has to live with the person or people who didn’t want it, or weren’t ready to be parents.

In many cases, it’s not a better alternative to not living.

The prolifers often want to cut social services, cut community based programs, cut school funding, yet they’re all about the baby coming into this world whether or not there are any resources for it. Makes zero sense.

^Yup!!!!!

@MrGrimm888 HC , I feel like you’re not ‘putting yourself in her shoes.’(the woman seeking abortion )
Some things you cannot put your mind into, I could no more wrap my head around how a woman could kill her child (not withstanding it is have his-) for any reason then imminent death if she kept the pregnancy any more than I can wrap my head around how a serial killer can just snuff people out as easy as popping a gopher in the head with a .22.

But that’s surely not the majority of women.
If I had to go off the numbers, abortions vs live births, most women make the choice to keep the child.

Just curious but did you grow up around low income housing?

^ What difference does that make?

HC. I see. I guess I didn’t know your personal view of abortion.

I see you adamantly oppose it.

That’s fair, but I still think you’re oversimplifying the process, and the mental toll on the female. Motherhood is a natural instinct for women. I think it’s a huge deal for them. Sometimes I can’t decide what I want on my pizza. I can’t imagine the gravity of making a decision of that importance.

But thank you for explaining.

Just trying to understand where your perspective comes from

^ Just trying to understand where your perspective comes from
I have said it before, but I would say it again, I grew up in the projects. I cannot see how that makes any difference on a woman choosing not to punish the child for her excitement gone wrong. I am sure there were plenty of women sparking in the hood when I was growing up, but back in the day it was not used as birth control, and those women who would have 4 kids with four different fathers were only touched out of desperation or uncontrolled severe horniness, not as business as usual.

Ok, I understand your perspective a little more as I though this was probably the case. You see people behave very differently than most of the middle-class, sheltered people do.

Women in the projects can’t afford abortions.

It is so easy to have a firm, unyielding opinion on decision you will never be at risk of having to make.

I love the ”her excitement gone wrong” comment, HC. Cracks me up. Never mind ”his” excitement, which, more than likely, was the only excitement in the initial deal.

@Seek Women in the projects can’t afford abortions.
If the government isn’t paying for them, they had plenty of misguided people willing to foot the bill.

@Dutchess_III Never mind ”his” excitement, which, more than likely, was the only excitement in the initial deal.
That is out the door, he may have gotten better of it, which is all the more surprising so many women are so quick to give it up when they are the ones less likely to trip the light fantastic, but they are in a hurry to go there anyhow. However, the issue is who has to be burdened with that ”tissue” that will at some point miraculously become a child if it is left alone

The government does not fund abortions. Full stop.

^^^^ Right? Where do people get these ideas? I paid for my own. Out of pocket.

https://fundabortionnow.org/get-help/medicaid

Well, people on Medicaid have ALL of their medical expenses paid for. If a person doesn’t qualify for medicaid then their insurance covers it. Or they pay out of pocket.