Do you still question whether late term abortion should be legal?

Nope. Never have, never will.

Never did. It’s none of my business. I got enough shit on my platter.

That’s a moving personal history, to be sure, but many if not most pro-lifers are willing to allow abortions to save the life of the mother. I found this to be a more relevant reponse to what Trump said.

And yet with the talk of repealing Roe V. Wade, and leaving it up to the states to decide for themselves, those pro-lifers could be signing that woman’s death warrant.

Roe v Wade will never be overturned, the same as the Second Amendment.

until it is

It’s a lot easier to overturn a Supreme Court decision than it is to overturn a Constitutional Amendment.

It should be legal throughout the entire pregnancy.

I usually don’t get caught up in debates about politics and stuff like abortion on the internet, but today on FB some woman wrote about 9th month abortions so I googled and cites statistics about how many are done (I came up with about 7,000 in 2012). It then became an argument about how babies with birth defects are a blessing and all this crap. I am very tempted now to link the Huff Post article in this thread but I’m kind of sorry I even allowed myself to get sucked into the debate in the first place. My feeling on these things is I’m not changing their mind and they’re not changing mine, so why bother.

Thank you Cecily Kellogg, another course of idiotic speaking driving me to vote the man in, oh well.

Late term, any term, they all should be outlawed, but love to see the hypocrisy in it, when it starts to ”appear human” then people want to treat it ”as human”.

Did you miss the part where the woman and fetus were both going to die?

@Hypocrisy_Central So, how many unwanted babies have you adopted recently?

No. A woman’s choice, not Uncle Sam’s.

I have never been opposed to it. And with the effects of Zika on fetuses, we may see more.

Never did. It’s between a woman and her doctor.

On the FB discussion, they’re saying (to my question about the mother dying), “How is ripping the baby apart going to save the mother? And they can just deliver the baby at 9 months.”

I can’t. I just can’t. I’m sorry I even got involved in it in the first place. They’re holy rollers and I’m far from being that way.

Not my circus. Not my monkeys.

They can’t “just deliver” a baby when a mother is in eclampsia and renal failure. Fuck’s sake.

@Espiritus_Corvus So, how many unwanted babies have you adopted recently?
Doesn’t factor in, I am not the only source for families unwanted kids can be adopted into. Some point down, Lord willing I may have opportunity. Second, if I choose to never adopt any that doesn’t change apportion from a selfish act of murder on the unborn….you can quip away on that but you can’t change the facts.

It’s like I said, every woman I personally know who had an abortion at 4 months or later wanted their baby. Some worked hard and spent money to get pregnant. I’m disgusted by the characterization that woman and doctors abort 9 month old healthy fetuses and kill them. That’s ridiculous. Some of the women I know who wound up in this very position are pro-life and vote pro-life and they can thank pro-choice for having a safe abortion. Not to mention that the whole partial birth ban eliminates what is often the best and safest abortion procedure for the woman.

When I lived in TN and was still hoping to have a baby it made me nervous that the two hospitals closest to me were St. Francis and Baptist.

It’s a matter of religious freedom too. In Judaism if the mother’s life is in danger the religion requires you remove the fetus. The fetus is now killing the mother, and in self defense it must be removed.

@Hypocrisy_Central it’s not selfish and it ‘s not murder. Your saying so doesn’t make it so. Those are not facts, those are your opinions.

^ Those are not facts, those are your opinions.
Then show some proof that if left alone the natural course at about 9 months on average, there will not be a birth of a human. Also show fact (not conjecture) that it is not human, has no soul (life force or whatever you wish to call it) until it can breathe on its own. Show proof that in normal instances even if 1 in 500,000 that it will become something other than human at the end of third trimester. Dig seep, I have all day, I bet my donuts to all of your dollars you can’t find anything scientific to support what you say, but I will wait for the evidence or more spin and rhetoric.

Did you read the article?

The woman was carrying twins. One was dead. The other was under-developed and dying. She was in organ failure and dying.

This was not a normal instance at all.

It has nothing to do with whether it’s a person, or if 500,000 other babies at the same age would have been born alive.

This baby was doomed. The mother was doomed. The only one either one of them would live would be to abort the pregnancy without putting the woman through labor.

You would kill a woman for the crime of carrying a failed pregnancy. For your selfish self-righteousness.

I probably should not comment since Trump is in this and I don’t have the full story. I don’t agree with abortion at all, unless there is extenuating circumstances, which can be very varied.

@Hypocrisy_Central If the baby is healthy it will be delivered. Remember I am talking about women who want to be pregnant, who want their babies.

@Hypocrisy_Central Take this scenario. You want a baby. You and your SO try for 3 months, and then finally in the fourth month she’s pregnant! Very exciting. Then you find out in the 4th month the baby has water on the brain. The baby will not survive.

You have some choices:

You can let the baby continue to grow, delivering will be much more of an ordeal, and you will have to wait many months to try to get pregnant again, and you might not get pregnant right away when you start trying. It could easily be another year until your SO is pregnant again.

Or, you can end the pregnancy and start trying again in a couple of months.

You might opt for the first choice, but can’t you understand why the second choice is reasonable? The woman in this case wants a baby. She wants control over her body so she can have her best chance at having a baby. Less trauma to her body and at a younger age.

@Hypocrisy_Central All of what you say may be true, but it still doesn’t make it murder. And it doesn’t make it selfish.

@JLeslie The baby will not survive.
Until the baby is proven to be dead in there, and not growing, I would spend every last dime on whatever prenatal care or procedure that would give the baby a fighting chance. If the baby is not growing, and is dead in the womb, then the soul has left it so all that is being done is removing the remains, there is no stopping of life, nothing is being killed.

@zenvelo [..but it still doesn’t make it murder. And it doesn’t make it selfish.
Yeah, I creep into the home of a very wealthy guy and help myself to some of his goods it is not stealing because he has so much, won’t realize it is missing, and it is insured, I also would not be acting selfishly because I want his goods for myself, I am magnanimous for liberating him of some clutter he hardly used anyhow…..you can frame anything to sound good. Unless carrying the child meant her death with 100% certainty; selfish.

The baby has no chance of life outside the womb. It is only alive because it is attached to the mother. The baby is killing the mother, but it is biologically alive.

Do you kill the mother because there’s a dying fetus with a heartbeat inside her?

Those are your options. Abort the pregnancy or kill the mother.

@Hypocrisy Central So you in effect feel justified in compelling a woman to bear a child, yet feel absolved of all responsibility or obligation regarding the consequences?

@Hypocrisy_Central once again, out make a false comparison. What your example describes meets the definition of theft, burglary, stealing. What this thread is talking about does not meet the definition of murder.

And you can call it names, but selfish is your opinion, not a fact.

Looks down at my penis

I will pass on the lady part stuff to people that actually have them.

I don’t really want Hillary mandating circumcisions. And yeah. I know that is a bonkers comparison. And she doesn’t want to do that.

Men of the world!!! Please just pass on the women’s health stuff to the experts. You know, women.

Yeah. I mean. It’s their body. Are we supposed to tie all pregnant women down, and make sure they optimize their child’s development? Disregarding their rights?

I think this is another slippery slope. Do we penalize women for having a cigarette while pregnant? $50 for smoking, $100 for a glass of whine $30 for walking on stairs etc.

Fortunately or unfortunately(depending on your views ), it’s inside the woman. She has final say. And should.

They just need men’s support. Not their judgment. I respect that.

Wish I could have added a ^ to that response. Made me seem like I was saying I don’t support it. I’m for what I said, women’s choices.

@Hypocrisy_Central I want to know the answer you have to @seek’s question. The baby is killing the mother, who do you save? You must choose.

If it’s late enough in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable it will be delivered and saved. Everyone wants the baby saved if possible. The mother, the doctor, and us jellies.

If it’s too early and the fetus is dependent on the mother then the fetus dies when removed.

If the fetus is already dying or dead then there is nothing we can do.

Doesn’t change that the basic question is who do you value more when there must be a choice made? This is not an abortion at the whim of the mother, the mother wants everything to be ok, but something is very wrong. You must choose. The mother or the fetus. Who do you choose?

@Hypocrisy_Central Stats for some of the birth defects that mean the baby won’t survive.

Anacephaly 1 in 10,000

Hydrocephalus is 1 in 1,000. That’s the water on the brain one. Sometimes it is seen very late in pregnancy and the child has a chance of living. Sometimes it’s seen after birth. Those babies get surgery and have a shunt put in. The shunts fail 50% of the time for various reasons, the other 50% do ok. But, when the water on the brain is seen in the first 6 months of pregnancy, it’s usually deadly. The fetus’ head grown bigger and bigger because it fills up with water. The brain is practically nonexistent, being squeezed by the pressure of the water. The baby is difficult to deliver because of the size of the head. The doctor can either reduce the size of the head to remove it in extreme cases, or c-sect (major surgery) the mother. This is one of the reasons partial birth was invented, for fetuses that could bot survive and had large heads.

Remember, we are only talking about cases where the baby will not survive. No one here is trying to rip a healthy fetus out of the mother and kill it.

There are other abnormalities that a baby will not live.

Related and quite interesting. Basically woman has placental abruption. Fetus dies. She is bleeding out quite rapidly and needs the (now dead) fetus and what remains of the placenta removed from her womb to prevent her from dying. Because the name of the operation to achieve this is an abortion she gets remarkably close to death while people council her against having the abortion to save the life of her already dead child because they don’t believe in abortions. By the time a competent dr is found who appreciates the problem and is willing to perform the procedure the woman is unconscious and peri-arrest.

It always bothers me that the folks so virulently opposed to abortion cannot recognize the odious realitiesi around efforts to eliminate access to the procedure in the face of increasing demand. It is such a glaring example of the intolerable imbalance in societal disregard for women as opposed to men. Women are NOT seeking abortions in record numbers for trivial reasons. Clearly, it is the recognition on the part of those involved that carrying a child to term is (for whatever reason) disastrous.

So many articles and debates all over the internets about abortion right now. It’s astounding t me that in 2016 we are still even needing to have this debate and defense of a procedure that’s necessary for a multitude of reasons.

I am and always have been for abortion in when it comes to health of the mother, rape or incest.
And anyone that haves a problem with that can go,(and because the word was used a lot in that issue) I will say can go FUCK themselves.
AS for just a birth control tool I am not really on board with BUT that again is the womans right not mine.
And could care less if everyone or no one agrees with me on that.
And to answer your question Abortion should always be legal, just as a birth control tool other options should be looked at first thats all .

It is a decision for the mother/parents to make. No one else has a right to say anything about it.

Abortion is a personal choice and while I do not advocate late term abortion without grave medical need, it is none of my business what a woman chooses to do, her reasons are her reasons. That said, I do think, morally speaking, that with all the BC and 1st trimester abortion choices available to randomly decide, medical issues aside, at 7, 8, or 9 months gestation that ” I have changed my mind” does paint an ugly picture and I would be hard pressed to find a legitimate defense of said woman. I was lucky, I was the victim of a date rape, way back in 1973, decades before that term was coined, and yep, I got pregnant.

Go figure, my first time ever having sex and I was not quite 16 years old. I was at the wedding reception of a friends older brother and we were drinking champagne, and one of the brothers friends took a fancy to me. He was 24. I am 99% certain he slipped Valium or another sedative type drug in my champagne as I had only had a couple glasses of champagne and went from fine to passing out in about 30 minutes.

I was just conscious enough to think ” I am having sex” but unable to fend him off. Ironically, I was impregnated and was able to obtain a discreet abortion through a local clinic unbeknownst to my family. The good news? As crappy as it was, this was in Nov. 1973 just 11 months after the landmark passing of Roe vs. Wade. I was so grateful that I was not forced to go through with a pregnancy or desperate enough to seek out a back alley abortion. I am 10,000 percent pro-choice, and, I do not believe in parental consent either.

^ Yeah, I’m about 800% sure literally no one is just “changing their mind” at 7 months. If you remove a healthy child from the womb at nine months’ gestation, that’s a C-section.

Relevant article

@Seek Exactly, that’s what I meant. IF someone just “changed their mind” that would be different, but yep, that would be the rare exception not the norm.

It’s a strange kind of “pro-life” that values the dead/dying fetus over the living woman.

As for myself – I’m in favor of abortions being legal at any term. Any woman who’s carryed a child into the 3rd trimester wants the child. If they’re having an abortion it’s because of grave medical necessity. Further, abortion is a moral question. It’s not the role of the government to legislate morality (if you feel it is there are plenty of theocracies you can move to).