Will you give Trump a chance?

Sure. As I am being carted off to jail because of my religion, I’ll likely regret having given him the chance.

What else can I do? I will protest any specific actions he takes that I consider harmful, but until he does those things I’m not just going to run around yelling fuck Trump. He’s what we’re stuck with, there’s nothing to do except hope for the best and donate to causes we believe in.

Yes, of course, but it seems he will be held to a very low standard. He has already gone back on several campaign promises, and his supporters don’t care. I am wondering how big he has to screw up before his numbers drop.

You lot have zero choice, unless any of you plan on shooting the fucker.
Maybe give him a community chest instead of a chance…

You have received planning permission for your wall
Collect payment of $10 billion from the Mexican Government

There is no other sensible choice. We’re all going on the ride, like it or not.

Most of his supporters never imagined he would actually keep his word on some of that stuff. Just not feasable.

Do I have a choice? He is the elected President of the US.

Not that I have a choice…
But he might be more of a moderate than he’s letting on with the RNC, and that could be a good thing.

Short answer. Yes… But he has a short leash.

@Cruiser I sincerely hope we can all come together and “give Trump a chance”. Not only that, I hope we can all support trump. @MrGrimm888 Any president we have now and in the future should be on a short leash! Accountable to the people.

Not much of a choice at this point. He said he is dismantling the EPA and he’s going to put in pro-lifers to the Supreme Court. Both of those things are not thrilling to me and I am not eager to see what other stuff he’s going to throw our way. As far as giving him a chance, I’m hoping he does some good things along with the bad.

I did. Then he named a white supremacist as his chief strategy adviser.

Think he blew it with Steve Bannon as chief strategy adviser!

~ ~ ~ Wardrobe by KKK
~ ~ ~ Security by “Skinheads”

I think some that voted for him will be asking themselves, “Why did he do that . . . ?”

I’m with @zenvelo and @Tropical Willie. Appointing Steve Bannon to a policy post was a clear signal to me what clothes the emperor is wearing.

Let’s give him the same chance Obama had with right-wingers.

Bannon was a dead give-away as to his ultimate intentions.

Pence, Bannon.

His chance is over.

I am not completely comfortable with the recent protests, because, unlike Bush in 2000, this election was not stolen. But by the same token, this election makes it clear that Trump does NOT have a mandate and should NOT expect a blank check.

I do not advocate the kind of partisan obstructionism that the GOP has been engaging in for many years, even though the shoe is on the other foot now. They went so far as to oppose policies that they would have supported had they been in power, just to prevent a Democratic president from accomplishing anything—that’s going too far. But if the GOP tries to pursue its oligarchic agenda at the expense of the broader public, or at the expense of the most vulnerable, then progressives may have to use some of the dirty tactics the GOP has pioneered . . . but here, Elizabeth Warren says it better

Key quote:
So let me be 100% clear about this. When President-Elect Trump wants to take on these issues, when his goal is to increase the economic security of middle class families, then count me in. I will put aside our differences and I will work with him to accomplish that goal. I offer to work as hard as I can and to pull as many people as I can into this effort. If Trump is ready to go on rebuilding economic security for millions of Americans, so am I and so are a lot of other people-Democrats and Republicans.

The next word is “But”.

Nope. I have no intention of being a good German.

Nope because I don’t have to. He is #notmypresident and is not entitled to any consideration from me. I will not give that fucker one drop of respect.

@Cruiser I believe in order to accomplish change Trump needs guidance from those familiar with the machine. Give him a chance. The “notmypresident” is juvenile whining. Election was 6 days ago. Let’s pull up our collective socks and act like adults who understand how this system works.

@si3tech give him a chance to what? impress me? win me over? convince me to do anything other than despise him? That ship has sailed. I hope he gets shot.

Nope. He already blew it with the appointment of a Nazi wannabe as his chief adviser.

President Trump….. President Trump….. President Trump. Nope, it still doesn’t sound right.

“All we are sayin, is give Tru…”
(Ahh, fuck it)

Sure. I’m hoping he had no clue he hired a white supremist and fires him soon. Right now Trump hasn’t “done” anything since he isn’t president yet. I’m hoping once some of the idiots he is appointing suggest outrageous racist, harmful, things that Trump recognizes it and thinks better of it. We’ll see.

Don’t you mean, am I willing to give Pence and Bannon a chance since they will be the ones really running things? No thanks. Trump pretty much has said that Pence will be running things. He had no intention to govern. He just wanted the title and power but not the job.

If he had selected a better running mate, or at the very least left Bannon (Heinrich Himmler) in the ditch where he was born, then I would’ve given him a chance.

Over the last few days I was willing to suspend my belief that he meant every mean thing he said. Then he hired Bannon. Enough for me to never support him.

@Seek That was an excellent response.

Yeah he’s losing my flimsy willingness to stay positive very quickly with these appointments.

nope

Based on what he has done so far, I have low expectations. Right now I am thinking in terms of major screwup and possible impeachment. If he can go two or three weeks without doing something stupid, I may reconsider.

I’m hoping he had no clue he hired a white supremist

What? The guy was chief campaign strategist. He’s not some random dude appointed by chance and NOW Trump will start vetting him. Bannon was sought out BECAUSE he represents white nationalists.

He is a well-known out and loud leader of the sewer that is the alt-right.

Stop playing the fair and balanced game. Conservatives are proudly and publicly crowing about their bigotry. You don’t have to cover for them, they’re not hiding it.

@Call_Me_Jay As a conservative (not a Republican) you are dead wrong about us “proudly and publicly crowing about their bigotry.” Bigots did not elect Trump nor does voting for Trump make you a bigot. Bigots exist on both sides of the isle and why independents are a rapidly growing voter base. Liberals and the mass media got Trumps popularity all wrong and it is clear you and other Liberals are continuing to make the same mistakes now that he is soon to be our President. Trump is nowhere near a bigot in the true sense of the word. David Duke is a bigot, those dumb asses Pamela Ramsey Taylor and W. Va Mayor Beverly Whaling who chuckled over the Ape in heels comment about Michelle Obama are racist bigots.

Trump didn’t win because he was a bigot, he won simply because he was not Hillary plain and simple. The 60 million people who voted for Trump, most who like me held our noses when we pushed that button…yes he stinks but in our opinions no where near as bad as Hillary. The message of why should be crystal clear by now…people wanted to drain the swamp of established do nothing politicians who are beholden to corporate interests.

Obama clearly got the message, Hillary got the message…why Liberals and the mass media still refuse to accept this reality will only ensure Trumps re-election 4 years from now.

IMHO, over using the word bigot for every minor association to some person or comment dilutes the significance of the label bigot and starts to marginalize the real racists like Duke and Ms Whaling.

@Cruiser You voted for a loud bigot, who said an American judge, born in Indiana, was unfit because he had a Mexican name.

Your candidate was very publicly supported by the Klan and white supremacists. His top advisor is a leading racist. The bigots are your team. You don’t get to pretend otherwise.

When you are on the same side as the Klan, perhaps it’s time to consider what that says about you and your values.

White nationalists see advocate in Steve Bannon who will hold Trump to his campaign promises

Trump retweeted an anonymous Nazi sympathizer and white supremacist who goes by the not-so-subtle handle @WhiteGenocideTM. Trump neither explained nor apologized for the retweet and then, three weeks later, he did it again.

How America’s dying white supremacist movement is seizing on Donald Trump’s appeal

Meet the Horde of Neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and Other Extremist Leaders Endorsing Donald Trump
The Republican nominee for president has not disavowed any of them.

Neo-Nazis explain why they support Donald Trump

Trump’s Populist Campaign Has Energized U.S. Militia Groups

American Nazi Party chairman says Donald Trump presents ‘a real opportunity’ for movement

Says you @Call_Me_Jay Identifying a potential conflict of interest in the judges heritage on that case hardly makes him a bigot let alone the racist the media tried to label him for his comments. He was simply making the observation of the possibility he would not get a fair trial there. Better keep a large glass of water nearby as your head is about to burst into flames…thanks for the laughs.

@Cruiser You’re a friend and I’ve agreed to disagree with you on politics but have you not read what Steve Bannon is? Will you not read any of the links @Call_Me_Jay has posted? Did Fox News not publish the video – video! – of Trump mocking the disabled reporter? There is subjective reality on both sides but there are also facts. I would never label you as a bigot but it pains me to see your denial of who your bedfellows are.

Identifying a potential conflict of interest in the judges heritage on that case

Wow. That is outright bigotry.

Cruiser, I know you are not a hateful or malicious person, but you are siding with the worst people. You really need to think about that.

@Cruiser is NOT A BIGOT. He is also not siding with hateful people.

@Rarebear I guess you missed this. – “Identifying a potential conflict of interest in the judges heritage on that case hardly makes him a bigot ”

Yeah, that’s a bigot.

No, I did not miss it and he is not a bigot. Trump is an asshat and a bigot, as Bannon, as I wrote is a Nazi wannabe. But @Cruiser is not.

Not all people who voted for Trump are bigots. But all bigots are Trump supporters.

Those who align themselves with Trump support bigot’s agendas. With or without racist intent.

@Rarebear Nonsense.You’re contradicting yourself.

Supporting Trump is siding with his “Nazi wannabe”
Supporting Trump is siding with “an asshat and a bigot”

It’s not debatable.

Who is being more hateful? The person who politely and bravely wrote about his political point of view or the person who is calling him names?

Like hell it’s not debatable. Support for Trump comes in different forms you can support economic policy of a candidate but detest their retoric etc, etc.. Support is seldom unconditional. @Cruiser has never shown anything other than being a stand up guy. I can’t say that about some other jellies.

^^What he said.

@janbb Thank you for your wiggle room here and I will simply say I have never defended Bannon and this is the first time I have ever written or acknowledge even his name let alone his character. What I/we are seeing here right now is character assassination by association and most not all have made my point nicely in how you can create something out of nothing to attempt to discredit people you may not agree with.

I 100% condone racism and bigotry…racism and bigotry is very obviously a big real and serious problem in our country caused by a very small percentage of asshole ideologues and though not lily white IMHO Trump is not one of them. No way he would have been elected if he was truly a bigot or racist by the definition I prefer to reserve for the real bigots and racist assholes of the world. And no I have not yet read up on past actions of Bannon…he is a new face and name to me. And I am 100% certain Trump did not pick Bannon because of his past bigoted remarks. Trump had to have picked Bannon because he felt he would provide sage advice for tackling the many challenges he now faces.

Freak out about my last comment all you want and you will one again be falling victim to the hyped hysteria created that guaranteed Trump the Presidency. Playing nice nice for 8 years with Obama at the helm got us into the messes we face as a country. We live in tough ugly even racist times and it will take strong leadership and IMO Trump is every bit a strong leader and I feel is entirely capable of keeping a racist you all allege Bannon is reigned in.

Trump is now on the world stage accountable for all he says and does…and so is Bannon. I believe people in their capacities will prove themselves to be better people for the people…ALL the people. Obama has given Trump his blessings and so has Hillary, so have I and tens of millions voters and this allowance to do what we elected him to do, dose NOT make me or anyone else automatically a bigot! Debate it all you want, but do not expect me to participate in this nonsense.

I meant condem not condone….what I time to screw THAT one up…sheesh

Obama has given Trump his blessing

Because Obama is a respectable person with good intentions.

Trump was a leading proponent of the birther nonsense. You support an overt racist.

Screwed it up again. What A time to screw that one up. LOL

Just keep shouting “racist” and perhaps the bad man will go away.

@ARE_you_kidding_me it doesn’t work, you’re still here.

I’d like to be clear that I never intended to insinuate that @Cruiser is a racist. I’ve never read anything that would lead me to believe that.

I was simply pointing out that there is a direct correlation between the bigot’s agendas and those of Trump, and those he is surrounding himself with.

Just one more olive branch….I would not be here if I did not respect the opinions of pretty much all of you. We all come different walks of life…I welcome the opportunity Fluther offers to engage in discussions here…most are fruitful and often enlightening. I believe a challenge to ones beliefs is how you grow. IMHO slamming the door on other’s dissentingopinions is an opportunity wasted. On that same note is one is rude and disrespectful…slam the door and latch the dead bolt.

@Cruiser I’ll take your olive branch and fly with it between my flippers – oh no! Splat! (Note to self: can’t fly.)

Today we learned that it is very impolite and disrespectful to speak up when someone agrees that a Mexican-American is not fit to judge a white man.

Oh, heavens, how rude!

All I know is I’d much rather have a beer with @Cruiser than you.

It’s impolite and disrespectful to judge anyone until you have walked in their shoes.

And I’d have a beer with @ARE_you_kidding_me also. And I have political differences with both of them. But I like and respect them.

Can’t we all just get along? (Rodney King).

Beers all around @Rarebear, good for your B/P and skin color.

You’re buying but I’ll bring peanuts and popcorn.

I’m with @Rarebear. The name calling was and I s just awful. It also brought Trump voters out in droves I think. I’ve been saying for months I can see the appeal of Trump and that his supporters just see the media twisting his words and I have been jumped on quite a bit and I am a Democrat and Hillary supporter! Im not one of those people saying there was no good choice on both sides, I’ve been waiting for Hillary for 8 years.

@Call_Me_Jay it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Trump and the people around him aren’t vetting people well. It also would necessarily surprise me if he does know Bannon background.

It’s impolite and disrespectful to judge anyone until you have walked in their shoes.

Gee, I really need to be more sensitive to the feelings of white nationalists and neo-Nazis.

You don’t need to walk in Bannon’s shoes but @Cruiser is not a Neo-Nazi, he just admitted ignorance about Brannon’s background; ignorance while not great is not malicious.

I didn’t mean at all to suggest @Cruiser is a neo-Nazi or a white nationalist. Not what I intended, not what I think.

As I wrote way upthread “Cruiser, I know you are not a hateful or malicious person”.

Redundant post deleted by me

Someone here challenged me to do my homework on Mr. Bannon and I can’t find much of anything in the links @Call_Me_Jay posted other than asshats who have history of being douche bigots supporting Trumps choice of Bannon who their approval is apparently based on their expectations of Bannon holding Trump’s feet to the flames of his campaign promises…well DUH! 60 million voters who voted for him expect the very same thing and so do the other 60 million voters who now have to put up with him for at least 4 years. I will add this though….I heard on my trusted talk radio that all they could add credence to the Bannon bigot fervor was he allegedly expressed his desire that his children did not go to school with Jewish kids. This was reported by his ex wife who may have ulterior motives for her disclosure…but just the sniff of that expression invites my condoning his words condemnation of his words IF he did indeed say it as my wife and kids are Jewish.

This apparently is well known news and I am sure not a surprise to Trump and his team. I said this earlier our country has really big fish to fry and Trump will need to have the best and brightest around him. Obviously he thinks Bannon is the man to do the job and so do many others as support seems strong for his selection. Time will tell if Bannon is an asset or a liability and by the mere fact that Harry Reid’s hair is on fire over Bannon’s appointment tells me the establishment pols like Reid have more to worry about than Trump and Steve Bannon running the show.

The Anti Defamation League

“The ADL strongly opposes the appointment of Steve Bannon as senior advisor and chief strategist in the White House”

” ‘It is a sad day when a man who presided over the premier website of the Alt Right, a loose-knit group of white nationalists and unabashed anti-Semites and racists – is slated to be a senior staff member in the “people’s house” said Jonathan A. Greenblatt, ADL CEO.”

@Call_Me_Jay You wrote “I know you are not a hateful or deceitful person BUT…” (emphasis mine). Any time anybody writes or says anything with the phraseology “A but B” I ignore anything that happened before the “but” and pay attention only to what happens after the “but”.

That said, @Cruiser I believe you are incorrect on your last post and @Call_Me_Jay is correct. Bannon is a racist scumbag, and as a Jew, he scares the crap out of me.

@Rarebear I will have to give you that one as I have been hearing a lot of dialogue ripping into Bannon on the morning talk shows. Oddly all of it is coming from the left and actually hearing Republican support for his appointment. I am still reading up on Bannon and all this huff and puff about him and am learning a lot of new things that now have me wondering if all this uproar is just Hillary supporters finding places to park their anger and disappointment in their loss.

There is one element of this election that I do not see anyone here in the Tide pool acknowledging or talking about and that is the role the media played in this election. I am hearing reports that say fake news is what tipped the scales against Hillary. I do not have examples to share and I am sure Google will provide ample stories for the curious. I would like to start by using Harry Reid as one example. In the previous election Reid famously declared Romney didn’t pay his taxes and that was the spear in the back of Romney many say helped him lose the election. Despite the fact Romney did in fact pay his taxes, when asked about his deceit Reid proudly crowed “he didn’t get elected did he”.

So the table was set for unprecedented lies to dominate campaign strategies on both sides this time out. Again not wanting waste my time or your time citing examples Google will provide ample examples for the curious.

My point here is, sites like Breitbart and Drudge IMO were clearly the forces that drove the narrative in support of Trump and the slayer of the beast Hillary Clinton. Had they been absent from the race she would have won the race hands down IMO. So IMHO I see much of this push back over Bannon as sour grapes from the left. Am I suggesting these reports of his misogyny, racism or bigotry is trumped up lies….no. But I see Bannon as simply a target for the anger and frustration on the left. I say this because in the couple hours I have read up on Bannon, I again see assassination by association to his running Breitbart and the slim association to the voice Breitbart affords the alt-right. Is this a bad thing? Perhaps. But to me there is a danger in painting Bannon, Breitbart and Drudge with a wide brush because there is a force in the alt-right that is unlike any other I have seen in my lifetime.

I have lived long enough to know well a time where the internet did not exist…life was relatively quiet and benign news wise. Today the internet is a firebrand firestorm of information good bad real and phony. And like it or not it is the alt-right that is leading the charge on the internet. I just stumbled on a story on Breitbart of all place I urge all here to read. It is a telling observation and description of the alt-right that draws a clear distinction of the alt-right who they describe as super intelligent young millennials from the low information low intelligence white supremacist skinheads the left is now demonizing Bannon for “associating” with.

I have to acknowledge the potential that it was this new alt-right that had a hand in Trump getting elected. Their passion and constant consistent pushing of the message to elect Trump and demonize Hillary had a profound effect on the outcome. And if the left ignores this reality, then I will predict a Trump re-election 4 years from now.

@Cruiser Oh – the left is not ignoring that reality! Nor is there no discussion of how the media and fake news on both sides has influenced the outcome. But I do believe Bannon’s bigotry is a fact. You can check into Bretbart news if you want to verify unless they’re hiding that now.

I again see assassination by association to his running Breitbart and the slim association to the voice Breitbart affords the alt-right

Bannon called Brietbart ”“the platform for the alt-Right.”

He isn’t associated with them. He is an enthusiastic leader.

@janbb I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to find this smoking gun evidence of Bannon being this grossly racist, bigoted, anti-Semite people on the left are accusing him of being. I am a pretty solid researcher and all I find is innuendo and attempts to accuse him of being a bigot by his association with Breitbart and even there the evidence is strictly because of the alt-right perspective Breitbart has allowed to filter through their company. I did find a headline Breitbart ran that called Bill Kristol a “renegade Jew” and here is the truth behind that headline

“David Horowitz, who wrote that article, attempted to defend it on the Breitbart site, saying, “In fact, neither Breitbart nor Bannon is responsible for that statement. A Jew is. I wrote the article, which was neither requested nor commissioned by Breitbart.””

I did find an article on Snopes that IMO presents a more rational perspective on this drama over Bannon that had this to say…

“former Breitbart editor, and vocal Bannon critic Ben Shapiro called the claims that Bannon is racist “overstated,” ”

Lastly the only thing that I could find that smacks of racism/bigotry/anti-Semitism was what his ex-wife during a very bitter divorce proceeding alleged him of asking what the percentage of Jewish kids were at the Archer school they were to send their kids to. He denied this accusation and his kids did end up going to that school anyway.

As far as Breitbart and the alt-right, I urge you to read this article on the matter.

An Establishment Conservative’s Guide To The Alt-Right

“The alternative right, more commonly known as the alt-right, is an amorphous movement. Some — mostly Establishment types — insist it’s little more than a vehicle for the worst dregs of human society: anti-Semites, white supremacists, and other members of the Stormfront set. They’re wrong”

Read the article if you have any interest why they are wrong.

I am on my phone and traveling but will respond in more detail later. Drudge I am okay with. Drudge is mainstream conservativism. Not intellectual like National Review or anything but mainstream. I look at both frequently. And remember I am NOT left. I am a center-right classical liberal.

But Breitbart is beyond the pale. It is the online “mainstream” home for white supremacy. It makes Fox News looks like it’s radical left.

@Rarebear I too am a centrist independent but obviously conservative non-republican and get much of my information from Drudge. I only wish I had this notion of Breitbart being so evil during the campaign. I say this because of the sheer number of articles I clicked on Drudge that were links to Breitbart articles and I would have read them through a different lens and more scrutiny.

I look forward to your comments later and till then I will hurry up and wait for the deluge of links to come that clearly show the bigotry of Bannon himself.

How’s this for another real perspective on Breitbart and Mr. Bannon. A letter written by Yossi Dagan, chair of Israel’s Shomron Regional Council…

Dear Stephen Bannon,
I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on the amazing election results for President-Elect Donald Trump and the United States of America. I would also like congratulate you personally on being appointed as Chief Strategist.

We know that you are a strong supporter of Israel and a true friend to the Jewish people and we look forward to your leadership in the White House.
It saddened me to hear about the uncalled for smear campaign against you by political opponents who refuse to accept the reality of losing a fair and democratic election. (emphasis mine) I am pleased that we in the Shomron, were first to openly support Donald Trump’s campaign and also opened a campaign headquarters here.
I, as leader of the second largest group with-in Israel’s Likud party central committee and Chairman of the Shomron Regional Council, am glad that after 8 hard years we now have decent minded people like yourself, coming to power in Washington DC.
Again, I would like to send my sincerest wishes to you and the American people. Please consider me a friend and resource for all of your Israel related interaction, and I look forward to meeting with you soon.
Blessing from the people and Land of Israel,
Yossi Dagan
Chairman
Shomron Regional Council

I don’t look at drudge much because the format is irritating.

If I have to pick an intellectual home it’s The Economist magazine. But I read articles from Mother Jones as often as I do from National Review. I cast a wide net.

So a random Jewish politician of a right wing Pro-settlement Israeli group from a corner of the country likes him? This proves nothing.

I think this thread, while people are being quite respectful, shows what is one of the core problems in America today. There seems to be absolutely no consensus on anything being true or false and no sources that are considered authoritative. . Sad, sad times for America.

People source information from the internet. Ever since advertisers have started paying people for the content they post it has been awash with bullshit. Most have a hard time sorting that out. The less educated people are the harder it is. The more polarized people are the more they fall for this retoric. Seeing a handfull of center leaning folks here is either the light at the end of the tunnel or the dying light before it all goes dark.

I saw Republicans this morning not willing to give their support or approval of Bannon.

I also heard, as mentioned here, that he is a pro-Israel person.

I’ll tell you, this reminds me of Jewish people I knew who voted for Bush because he was pro Israel. None of them cared that most likely he is pro Israel for religious reasons. Some Jews only care Israel is protected and don’t care if the people fervent in the fight don’t really care about Jews, think Jews are going to hell, and will even use and say negative stereotypes about Jews. The Jews will bring the second coming of the Messiah! I want to clarify I don’t think Pres. Bush is anti-semitic, I’m only saying it wouldn’t be surprising that some supporters of Israel are.

I wonder what Trump’s SIL thinks of Bannon? My impression is he is fairly religious, but I don’t know. The very religious tend to be able to hyper focus on the Israel part and concern themselves less with why someone supports Israel.

I saw a quote from Bannon calling women dykes. Was that recent? Related to this election?

I apologize in advance for typos. I cannot correct what has been written.

The alt-right is very pro-israel.

Yes because it heralds the Rapture

I think the question of where the alt-right stands on Israel is not really germaine to the question of whether they should be a strong force in the White House.

The facts that I am reading are showing that hate crimes against Muslims, blacks, gays, disabled and also Jews are on the rise and I’d like to see what the new government plans to do to lessen them.

I am pro Israel also because as a Jew I can emigrate if our nation elects a Nazi sympathetic far right President who wants to put ethnic groups in camps.

Oh, no wait…

the alt-right is very pro-israel.

No, supporting the far-right in Israel is not “pro-Israel”, it’s pro far-right. They work very hard against the interests of most Israelis.

Bannon in his own words. Only one antisemetic remark but it shows him to be a board certified asshole.

I also take umbrage to his claim that he is “center right”. That is delusional. David Brooks, David Frum, The Economist, Reason magazine are all center right. Breitbart is fringe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/stephen-bannon-breitbart-words.html

Wake up @SecondHandStoke – you’ve been crafting a response for the last three hours!

No kidding. I just got off a plane flight from San Diego to Oakland. He was writing it when I was in San Diego and he still is! :-)

With my long answers here today I had to contend with @secondhand flashing away while I typed…I though I was going to have an epileptic episode

@Cruiser Maybe that’s his plot to bring down the system!

7:04pm eastern time on 11/16, @SHS is still going.

Noticed this since last night. Eagerly awaiting what appears to be a novel, or perhaps a cat is playing with his phone.

jeez, I hope the guy’s okay.

This happened once before with Petethepothead. Need I say more?

420 baybee.

I’m thinking computer glitch.

@Cruiser . That article about the alternative right didn’t seem biased to you?

There are at least two commercials that are anti Hillary. The writers continuously rant about the alternative right as being super smart, hero,patriots.

They do go on to describe that they ‘don’t believe integration is possible. ’

They desire to ‘protect’ a way of life that only exists in the 1950’s in Back to the Future.

They sugar coat lots of racist content, and paint themselves as the good guys opposing an oppressive government.

They are at minimum separatist, xenophobics. But admit to many racist, anti everyone but white agendas.

They NEVER separate themselves from overt racists . Only wrap their idiology in a pretty package.

Their thinking is perfectly aligned with the most racist of Americans. Sounds like they just don’t like being refered to as racist. Which they are.

Alt right people are apparently racists in denial. According to that article.

What is alt-right?

@JLeslie I would also like to know. I don’t think I’ve ever heard this term before.

Wow. Okay. The short answer is it is who is in the White House. I’ll give a long answer tomorrow if nobody else takes it.

I was going to type out an answer to @JLeslie But the flashing @secondhandstroke is driving me nuts.

But the wikipedia article is pretty good, so read that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

Alt-right is a far-right conservatism that tends to embrace white nationalism, racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia and misogyny. Here’s a better look at the “alt-right”: LA TIMES

@Rarebear and @zenvelo Thanks for the links. I almost wish they weren’t called alt-right because it’s so disgusting I don’t want anyone confusing them with other parts of the right. Plus, alt is too soft. Maybe radical right or fundamental right or let’s just go for terrorists. I mean really, they type of hate terrorizes people. Why not just continue to call them white supremacists and leave it at that?

STILL GOING, 8:49 am on 11/17

I suspect he flew to Tangiers without closing the window.

www.reddit.com/r/altright

Read straight from the mouths of the people who call themselves this.

Have a puke bucket handy.

That’s a pregnant pause, extremely overdue though

@JLeslie The best term to describe them is Nazi.

Alt-right is a pretty broad stroke that includes all flavors of the fringe right wing. Doomsdayers, NWO conspiracy nuts, end the fed, birthers and yes, neo- nazi groups although they are a minority.

Yes.

As I am not one of those clowns declaring that they will leave the country over the newly elected President.

@SecondHandStoke glad to see you’re all right, bud.

^ Thanks much.

Fluther jammed up for me (as it appears to have done for others).

I just took a break for about a day and a half.

^^ whew! We were all on tenterhooks.

^ (Sigh).

I have to admit that my first explanation was a lie.

The flashing effect concealed a detailed message sent directly from me to the subconscious of every viewer.

@zenvelo Same difference practically. I draw the line at using Nazi for the systematic kidnapping, torturing, enslavement, and genocide of a population. To use it just for people who say hateful things and think hateful things diminishes what really happened during Nazi Germany. I know there are instances of violence and even killing by these white supremist people, but it is not government sanctioned and there are all sorts of hate crimes here and there anyway by random people and groups.

For me, the big deal is this will be in our government! Even if I won’t go as far as to use the term Nazi, I still don’t want a white supremist in our federal government. Obviously, we must be vigilant and keep watch what is going on.

@Cruiser I see a huge change from the direction this country was headed when Ford Motors stays! Ford Motors is giving Trump a chance!

@si3tech I didn’t know this and thanks for letting me know. Article

@Cruiser You didn’t read your own link. Trump is lying.

Ford wasn’t going to close the plant.

@Cruiser Have you read anything about Apple considering moving its manufacture of iPhones to the USA? If so that would be huge!

@Cruiser The UAW met with Ford on this decision.

@All of the above. How about the teachers in California teaching a class on why they should hate Trump? The haters are the ones who lost.

Schools shouldn’t teach children political positions one way or the other. They should teach not to hate though, and to speak their minds. But let them make up their own minds.

@si3tech References ?

“How about the teachers in California teaching a class on why they should hate Trump? The haters are the ones who lost”

@Call_Me_Jay Embrace the lame stream media all you need to soothe your bitter disappointment of Hillary’s loss. I don’t expect you to see the value in a Trump Presidency…ever…but he is not even officially President and positives of him being elected are bubbling to the surface.

“Spokeswoman Christin Baker said Ford “confirmed with the President-elect that our small Lincoln utility vehicle made at the Louisville Assembly plant will stay in Kentucky”.
“We are encouraged that President-elect Trump and the new Congress will pursue policies that will improve U.S. competitiveness and make it possible to keep production of this vehicle here in the United States,” she added, in a statement.”

@Tropical_Willie if I may….“This is not just anti-Trump.”

One tiny factory announces it’s staying in Kentucky… And all of Europe is terrified that we’re going to bring on a nuclear apocalypse. Win/win, amirite?

@Seek Ford is not one tiny factory and a few short years ago (or so it was told) the big 3 had to be bailed out by Obama and the Feds. Supposedly a zillion union jobs were to be lost and saved by the bailouts but no one then acknowledge the jobs by the thousands that continued to exit our borders. Fast forward to today where any and all jobs matter…Ford confirms they are sticking around. Win win…does it really matter who gets the credit?

@Cruiser Trump did not save a factory. He did not save any jobs.

There was no plan to close the Lousiville factory. Ford last year committed to maintaining employment levels there.

You’re eagerly repeating lies.

And you have enthusiastically defended this:
‘I hope the Mexican judge is more honest than the Mexican businessmen who used the court system to avoid paying me the money they owe me’

Your excitement about President Grab Her Pussy isn’t doing anything for your integrity or credibility.

@Cruiser . I wouldn’t call any of the things people are telling children propaganda. Trump’s rhetoric, agendas, and so far his appointed surrounding cast are proof enough to most that there may be plenty to be afraid of.

There’s really no need to doctor the spin,if you’re on the left. Trump and his supporters do a great job of making themselves look bad on their own.

If you were a teacher how would you calm the children’s fear?

So the accusation is that teachers are telling children that the President elect is a racist and sexist? The only issue that matters is whether or not the teachers are telling the truth. And here is where Trump’s tendency to talk his neck into the noose betrays him once more, for there has been absolutely no shortage of racist sexist blather loudly and frequently dispensed from the tactless windbag, and everybody heard it.

@MrGrimm888 “Trumps rhetoric” as you intone, to date is in reality media rhetoric gold and Trump hubris just to defeat his Republican opponents and ultimately Hillary. Guess what??? He did it!! He blew everyone’s minds and obviously yours!! Get over it!! The only fear in children’s and your own minds is bullshit….so again, get over it!!

I would strongly recommend you stop listening to CNN and all the lame ass Liberal media….you will have a much more peaceful day if you do. One last tip….stop being the Ogre and telling the kiddies lies….precisely why Trump got elected….seriously.

@Cruiser

No.

@Cruiser: I get what you’re saying, but Trump’s rhetoric during the election is too dangerous for woman and minorities to ignore. You can say he just did it for attention, and maybe he did, but we simply do not have time to “wait and see” if he’s serious, because he might show us that he is by taking our rights away (and he’s already failing some tests, with the appointment of Bannon, a literal modern day Nazi, and his open desire to overturn Roe v. Wade).

And honestly….we’re allowed to be bothered that this tactic “worked.” Racism and sexism are not the kind of shock value that should “work” in a civilized society. I am allowed to be scared that almost 50% of my country supported a man who is thought to have committed sexual assault and bragged about it on camera. That is not unreasonable for me, a woman. It is normalization of the worst kind of behavior.

Great answer @Mariah…you gave voice to I know how many women feel today…I gave voice to how I feeI and even how other women who did vote for Trump feel about the hope and change Trump could bring to our disjointed country. I truly believe he won this election for positive reasons the majority hold hope for. But could we be more desperate as a country??? And how did we get to this level to elect a Trump to save our collective asses?

It’s crazy to me because I really don’t view Obama’s presidency as having done harm. I see us as much better off than we were 8 years ago. So I’m having trouble understanding the total desperation that elected this man. I don’t know. Rural America must really be hurting. I come from a place like that, I get it. I’ve been away for 6 years now, living in elitist New England, so I guess I’ve fallen out of touch. Things must just be awful there. I don’t know. I don’t believe every person who voted Trump did maliciously as a “fuck you” to minority America. I can’t believe that and I don’t. But regardless of their intent, they still elected a man who scares us.

@Mariah IMHO….my very humble opinion, and why my political views today are the way they are… Is that “the other half” forgets and discounts where we came from and views how this country is today as a positive. Reality check time. Yes Bush nose dived this country into the ground….but that was 8 years ago…we certainly were in the shits then when Obama took over. There was no where else to go but up! And to celebrate even the most remote improvement in unemployment rate debt, jobs growth etc. is IMHO is ignoring the reality we are only measuring improvements by how far we have moved up from this deplorable bottom we have been in for 8 years. The truth is, we are still not even close to the top we once were as a country. Hard to admit and we have to, is that Obama fell short of the goals we elected him to achieve. Time to acknowledge this reality and look up towards that distant ledge above us of greatness this country once was. Despite Trump being our new President….you, I and everyone else needs to hold hope and exert every ounce of our energy to claw our way up to that ledge of greatness this country was once again.

Which ledge of greatness was that? Please be specific as to the time and circumstances to which you are referring.

And to that “other half”, “progress that is real but too slow and too little” sounds amazing right now because we honestly think we’re about to move backwards for 4 years. Maybe not on the economy (though I have no optimism there due to economists’ analyses of his plans) but on human rights.

One can’t deny that improvements to the economy will help everyone. But my selfish stake in this is that no amount of thriving economy will ever give me the money I need to pay medical bills out of pocket. I actually have a great paying job for someone my age, which is a privilege I acknowledge because it gives me a little immunity to the state of the economy. But unless I become a millionaire, I will never be able to pay these medical bills without help.

Between a rock and a hard place. Thank you for your civil discussion from a point of view of disagreement, I have GA’d all your answers.

And I agree with @Seek, where we came from isn’t greatness. Segregation wasn’t so long ago, unequal rights for gay people is still a big issue with only very recent great strides made and lots of work still left…there isn’t a time we could go back to where everything was great. There is shame from all times in our past. We are as great now as we’ve ever been. I get that you’re focusing on the economy and talking about before the recession. But some scary people, when they say “go back to our roots” or “make America great again,” they are actually saying go back to before the gays could marry. Or the blacks could swim in our pools.

@Mariah
No, this is not what they are actually saying. The whole “make america great again” thing is touching the nerve of people who remember when an average person could work a regular job, afford a home, raise a family and be able to retire with a pension. They remember watching Neil Armstrong walk on the moon. Nobody thinks of all of the bad shit when they say or hear this. There was nothing great about any of that.

Jeff Sessions just said that grabbing a woman’s genitals is not sexual assault. And he is the nominee for Attorney General. I think any chance I might have been willing to give has been obliterated by Trump’s cabinet picks and actions. He hasn’t been just playing a role.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’m not saying it’s anything close to a majority. It’s the fringe. Both sides have their lunatics, I’m not absurd, I get it.

And I understand that if you’re poor and white in Wyoming and there’s no jobs in your county you’re tired of hearing about how only the blacks have it bad and how you have to help them. And you just want your taxes down and you don’t have the energy to give a shit about a college educated girl in Boston’s medical expenses. Trust me, I wish I didn’t have to take money from the common man to pay for these things but until there’s some kind of massive reform to bring medical costs down, I need the help or I die.

I know most people who voted for Trump did it for those reasons and not because they hate minorities.

I grew up in cow town upstate NY. My dad was laid off when I was 13 and had no job for 2 years. Our local economy was dead, there were no jobs for a college educated 50 year old man. That was in 2006 though.

It got worse, much worse after 2008. Small economies that could not take a hit were devastated during the housing crisis and have not recovered. I visited my home town a couple of months ago and seemingly half the storefronts were boarded up. Trump was no surprise to me.

Most people against the ACA are not against healthcare reform. They just want something reasonable. Many people saw their healthcare bills go up substantially after the ACA. Mine more than doubled. Why is an epi-pen $700 now when it was $50 just a short time ago? So what happened to the stamping out corporate greed that was promised with the ACA? Even my most vocal conservative friends are not against the type of help you are receiving. you’re legit and you would be hard pressed to find someone not ok with it. It’s a misconception that people who identify as conservative or republican are completely against public assistance, they are against abuse and inefficiency of it. It’s one thing to force someone to give up part of their earnings to help someone who really deserves it but it’s something completely different to do so when the recipients are just taking advantage. that’s the sore spot, this is what gets their goat. Politicians and fringe groups milk this and trump it up to garner their support.

I think we should all stop paying the fringe so much attention. They don’t represent any of us yet they endup dominating the discourse we have, even here on fluther. I keep trying to get people to stop it but it just falls on deaf ears. Even people who seem to preach against hate appear to relish their hatred of the perceived haters. I guess it just fells too fucking good to have someone to be pissed off at and blame.

@ARE_you_kidding_me

You understand who is, “Driving the bus”? The fringe is joining the White House.

The ACA was watered down by the GOP and is not what most states have because of local ( States rights ) opposition. What most first world countries have is universal health plans not companies and lawyers out for the maximum buck.

I believe you, @ARE_you_kidding_me. My fear right now is that those hoping to reform the ACA don’t understand how it works. Trump wants to keep the preexisting conditions clause without the mandate. That’s like letting people buy car insurance after they get in an accident. It’s even less fundable than what we have now. So either he’s going to do away with that clause, or he’s not going to change the ACA like he promised. One of those options results in my death. Even I can recognize that as it is now, the ACA is too expensive. Other countries have figured it out though. We could take a leaf from them. The ACA ended up being what it is because of the compromises we had to make to get it through Congress. The conservatives wouldn’t let us go for a single-payer system.

I think welfare abuse is a lot less common than those who want to reel in the system make it sound. The abusers are these fringe that you want to stop talking about.

I somewhat agree about not talking about the fringe. It gives them power. But, I think some of them are too scary to ignore. A lot of the coverage is fear-mongering, but I don’t want them to quietly gather power in the shadows without us watching. I try to keep a close eye on subreddits that I hate, purely because I want to be informed of what’s going on. If that makes me a little more scared, so be it – I just want to be aware.

And I’m truly worried about our Muslim brothers right now. It’s not just the fringe that want to do away with them in this country, sadly.

@Seek the 40’s speaks volumes to our greatness and a point in time that is one of many times that defined our countries greatness. As a country we entered a terrible conflict across the pond to defend our allies….men went to war….women rolled up their sleeves to take on the jobs their husband soldiers once did. Women gave up nylons so parachutes for Airborn soldiers could be made….victory gardens were tilled so food could be on the tables of those making these incredible sacrifices. Never in recent memory has such an effort defined greatness of a country. I am not suggesting we need a war to redefine Americas greatness…but if you or anyone is to believe even a smidgeon of what media is presenting as the condition of the world we live in today…then we are at war on so many levels that makes Hitler look like a playground bully. And we are in desperate need of a strong leader to take us to battle to tackle the problems we as a country face. Poverty, immigration, terrorism, unemployment, our economy, energy, oil, banking, housing, education, health care, I will even throw in climate change on top of a whole host of other battles we as a country face. It all comes down to jobs….good jobs. The same kind of jobs our soldiers came home to in the fall of 1945 and lasted till I was 10 years old. I lived the tail end of it and would love to see it return. I couldn’t care less if you fault me for believing Trump may get us there again.

@Cruiser Your news source you are quoting from “Teacher . . ” seems to be a opinion website and financial blog from Austria and not a valid news source, also Breitbart would not be a good source either.

“It’s not just the fringe that want to do away with them in this country, sadly.”
Yeah it is.
“I think welfare abuse is a lot less common than those who want to reel in the system make it sound.” That’s pretty much what I just said though.

“The abusers are these fringe that you want to stop talking about.”

It’s not that we need to stop talking about them it’s that we need to stop letting them dictate what we talk about. How we polarize around them gives them power, not that we are talking about them.

Trump himself wants to disallow any Muslims from entering the country and has toyed with registering the ones who are already here. Either it’s not only the fringe, or our president-elect is the fringe.

@Tropical_Willie You have your right to deny reality all you want to but that does not sidestep the brainwashing objective of those California teachers to infect the young minds of their students with their liberal POV’s…

“Let us please not sidestep the fact that a racist and sexist man has become the president of our country by pandering to a huge racist and sexist base.”

Is that the lesson we should be teaching our kids? Perhaps try asking the kids how the fuck did a racist and sexist man become the president of our country by pandering to a huge racist and sexist base in the first place?? Ask these kids how on earth did our country become so dysfunctional that a Donald Trump could be elected President? Ask these kids who do they believe is responsible for this turn of events that got Trump elected? Someone is responsible for this happening and I have yet to see one liberal to step and raise their hand. To merely put a magnifying glass on Trumps faults and attempt to lay blame on his faults in order to feel better about him being our President IMHO is to redirect and ignore the reality of just why in hell he is now our president. Time to stop messing with kids head, get over it and move forward as best we can.

@ARE_you_kidding_me It is impossible to stop paying attention to the fringe, precisely because it is the former fringe that increasingly dominates the politics from the right. And since the country is clearly moving in THIS direction, our attention is forced. And nothing you can name better illustrates this than the elevation of Mr. Trump. In fact Trump is so beyond the pale that he actually is not in fact an icon of right wing dogma. All the debate we’re having over whether or not Trump’s election is a good or bad thing for the country obscures the REAL significance of his success, and just how grim the situation is regarding the aptitude of we as voters, Because Trump is now President in spite of the fact that for the duration of his entire campaign there has been not a single piece of evidence to refute what was obvious at the outset. There still remains but one answer to the big turd of a question surrounding Trump’s announcement that he would seek the Presidency, and his subsequent campaign served little else than to reinforce the obvious answer to the question: “is Donald Trump qualified for the Presidency of the United States?”

@cruiser “does not sidestep the brainwashing objective of those California teachers to infect the young minds of their students with their liberal POV’s…”

What is this supposed to mean? It’s getting harder to defend you when you post stuff like this.

In my state (North Carolina) there is new swear word, “Liberal”. The point being there is a feeling, in a lot of the population, that it is “my way or the highway”. Liberals they see as the backers of Federal laws and “Civil rights”.
They see Trump as the “White knight” to get back to the 1850’s with slave shacks in the backyard and only white landed males having the right to vote. ~~ j.k. but not really.

Beitbart was another source I could find saying that teachers were teaching that Trump was a sexist and a bigot.

@Cruiser There’s no big secret as to the “why” of Trump’s success. It’s EXACTLY the same reason that Hitler or for that matter Franklin Roosevelt were wildly successful in exploiting hard times. And as with those other 2 “dictators” there’s actually no telling in which direction his whims will carry us, which is why he is a bigger threat to the Republican party than he could ever be for Democrats who actually anticipate the worst. The thing to keep in mind is that Trump as with Hitler and Roosevelt truly believe that they carry the best interests of the country in their endeavors and are quite prepared to ditch Constitutional as well as ethical obstructions in the time honored tradition of ends justifying means.

To everybody no one in particular…Trump…Donald J Trump is soon to be our President. How the fuck did this happen? Can anyone here give me an honest answer to this question? To answer that question honestly will take an enormous amount of introspection that so far very few here have demonstrated a capability to do so. It is perfectly OK to deny the results of this election…sugar coat it and focus on other things that provide salve on your wounds of the blind side of this election. Continuing to attack Trump and his supporters is only going to ratchet up the polarization that got him there in the first place….as much as you may now hate me or like me or give me the benefit of the doubt, I will not cease to lay blame on the liberal Democrats for creating the mess in our country that enabled the likes of a Donald Trump to now be our President elect. Thank you very little everyone.

It was not the liberal democrats who elected Trump, @Cruiser. Don’t blame us when you’re the only one in here who voted for him.

I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary, who I think could have done much better than Hillary in the election. The DNC is indeed at fault in his downfall but individual liberal Democrats worked very hard for him.

Again @Mariah I did not say you/liberals elected Trump and will admit I did. But I did not create this mess in this country that enabled a Trump to be elected. The Dems and those who voted for Obama did.

Obviously we/pissed off disgruntled conservatives, independents and yes even democrats voted Trump into office. I was merely shining a spotlight on the state of our countries affairs that are so desperate and dire that the likes of a Donald Trump would be deemed a better leader to lead us out of this mess than who the Dems presented as their option (Hillary) Please don’t fault me for that….I just voted for the perceived better option and so did 60 million other voters.

You admitted earlier the only thing that went wrong under an Obama administration was that progress wasn’t fast enough. Progress, recovering from the worst financial disaster since the Great Depression. Obama did a great job he did the best he could with the situation he inherited. This is not Obama’s fault. This is the fault of a radicalizing right.

Donald J Trump is soon to be our President. How the fuck did this happen?

Are you fucking joking? It’s because people like you fucking voted for him.

I will not cease to lay blame on the liberal Democrats for creating the mess in our country

Fucking nonsense.

Your last pick for President was a disaster and we haven’t recovered from the shitty policies you voted for.

Bush left the economy a smoking crater, the worst in economic disaster in 80 years.

You voted TWICE for the Republican who took a booming economy and a federal budget surplus and turned it into a new Depression with record deficits

And you fool yourself blaming that on Obama.

Your last pick for President spent 1 trilllion dollars turning Iraq into a lawless state leading directly to the rise of ISIS.

Bush got more Americans killed than bin Laden as well as 100,000 Iraqis. And you rare here cheering for the candidate who spits on on Gold Star families.

Your last pick for President did such a shitty job, no Republicans will use his name in a campaign. He has not been allowed to appear at any GOP convention since 2004.

Republican policies are horrible and give horrible results.

@Mariah I will not judge you on how you evaluate success or failure. But we are only a year away from equaling the duration of the Great Depression and again why I believe voters saw more hope in Trump than Hillary who was riding shotgun with Obama the last 8 years.

@Call_Me_Jay Face facts for once…National debt
Bush….$10.63 trillion
Obama $19.5 trillion and counting

@Cruiser – in the 1940s we had Japanese citizens living in internment camps, black people had nearly no rights in society, women weren’t allowed to conduct business unless it was in their husband’s name, and the reason there was an influx in jobs was because we had a significantly depleted workforce because we had just been in a goddamn war.

Forgive me for not looking forward to what it would take to get us “back” to the fallout of WWII.

Not to mention the Red Scare. Ooh, boy is that a “great” 1940s thing I (as a liberal atheist) would REALLY love to see not come back.

@Cruiser Face some facts.

Your man Bush was handed a budget surplus and turned it into record deficits.

Obama was handed the worst situation in decades. Thanks to you and your fellow conservatives.

The peak of yearly deficit spending was the BUSH budget for 2009. Deficit spending has been LOWER under Obama. And Bush doubled the total national debt. Obama has not.

Deficit spending isn’t bad by definition. I bet you have a mortgage and business loans. But if you’re going to moan about it, blame yourself. You vote Republican.

Annual deficit in billions
2009 $1,413
2010 $1,294
2011 $1,295
2012 $1,087
2013 $679
2014 $485
2015 $438
2016 $587

Link

By the more relevant measure of deficit compared to GDP, your Bush deficit was almost FOUR TIMES worse than 2016.

$1 dollar is a lot smaller in a $23 trillion growing economy compared to the $14T shrinking catastrophe inflicted on us by George Bush and Republican voters.

Year / Deficit as % of GDP
2009 9.8%
2010 8.7%
2011 8.4%
2012 6.7%
2013 4.1%
2014 2.8%
2015 2.4%
2016 3.2%
2017 2.6%
2018 2.3%
2019 2.6%
2020 2.4%
2021 2.4%

Source -Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

@Cruiser The fact is that the entirety of Obama’s addition to the deficit was about deflecting the world wide global financial collapse at his doorstep when he took office. WHO do you suppose deserves the hit for that?

@Seek the reason there was an influx in jobs was because we had a significantly depleted workforce because we had just been in a goddamn war.

Not to mention all the competing developing countries where literally smoldering ruins.

^ No doubt.

[Ed. note: ”developed countries”]

Hindsight colors everything with a tinge of gold and nostalgia.

@stanleybmanly Honestly Obama. His campaign was all about slaying the nations debt and him appointing Tim Geithner as Secretary of the Treasury made it clear to me we were in for a long rough ride. So instead of chipping away at the nations debt he has doubled it….there is no further reasonable way to deflect blame for who is responsible for our debt other than Obama. He has had 8 years to make good…EIGHT YEARS!! How can you sensibly not put our debt we now have on his tenure?? Bush handed Obama a 10 trillion baton….Obama is now handing Trump a 19+ trillion baton…how does this make you feel good about the last 8 years???

@Cruiser I find it very interesting that you focus almost solely on economic arguments – the “facts” of which seem totally malleable – and not on human and social progress.. I could not accept this man as someone to support whatever pie in the sky he promised and the “fringe” that people speak of is the fringe he has encouraged and the fringe that he is planning to bring in to the White House.

I measure progress by much more than economic terms and even on those terms, Obama brought us out of the recession.

Look in your heart man, look in your heart.

@janbb I embrace whole heartedly what you are saying…but in my eyes Obama did very little to bring us out of this recession we are still in. Who was in office in 2010 when changes in banking regs make it nearly impossible for me to finance the buyout of my company and also then demanded I have 100% equity to buy a home?? Who was in office that shoved the ACA up my ass and not only increased the cost of the health insurance to my employees by 25% but also stuck a 3% reinsurance fee/tax on top of it. Who single handedly destroyed our coal industry that in turn fucked 30% of my customers. For 8 long years I have bent over and taken it and made due…and so hopeful that more sensible heads will run our country.

I am sure my words are at the very least irritable to you and others…but I have the job of providing jobs to my employees and product to my customers. I am not looking for an easy street ride and willing to pay my fair share….but squeeze me too hard and I will just throw in the towel and then what?

My money is made out of a small business too. We had 40% increases often in our yearly employee healthcare premiums before the ACA came in; I haven’t been an owner since. I am for universal healthcare paid for by taxation and reining in the private healthcare industry and big Pharma. I don’t pretend that healthcare was in good shape before the ACA and it is probably in slightly better, but not great shape, now.

If Trump improves life for all Americans – working people,small business owners, minorities, the disabled and women – I’ll be delighted. But I see no reason to think that this self-centered, bigoted, racist, narcissistic, ignorant big businessman who has only ever thought of himself and those ultra-conservative Republicans (not all of the Republicans) who are happy to jump on his wagon was ever about doing that.

And that’s all the emotional energy I can put into this discussion for now. If he proves me wrong, great. But I see nothing in the Cabinet choices or the rise in overtly racist acts to encourage me.

”Donald J. Trump is soon to be our President. How the fuck did this happen?”

It happened despite the fact that Hillary got the popular vote of the American people, the Electoral College voted for Trump. So it’s not because the people want Trump to make America great again or people are tired of LIberals and their policies, Obama and the ACA, etc., it’s because of the Electoral College. If it were up to the people and the popular vote, Hillary Clinton would now be our President Elect.

Sorry @jca But in order to win the electoral college way means Trump got votes, the right votes and a lot of them. AND he got those votes for reasons. The main ones was there was a movement against mainstream asshat politicians who put corporate interests before their own voters. Secondly, Trump was not Hillary and the main reason why he is now our President elect. Liberals ASSumed they had this election in the bag…surprise surprise surprise

@Cruiser is correct on this. Had Trump won the popular vote and Hillary won the electoral votes most people here would be praising the electoral college and not denouncing it. For many Trump was the second to last person they would ever vote for and Hillary was the last.

@ARE_you_kidding_me well, since DT is a fascist, it’s easy to see why the reaction would be different if the election had gone the opposite way.

I’ve denounced the Electoral college since I learned about it in civics class so…

@Seek In your perfect world sans an electoral college you will essentially be surrendering the election of our President to the citizens of Chicago, New York city, Miami and Seattle. IMO hardly a fair shake for the rest of us. Here is a map of the vote intensity of the last election. How in your vision would the rural voters stand a chance to have their vote count without the electoral college?

@Cruiser Your misunderstanding of everything surrounding the election is astounding.

Trump got 39% of the popular vote in Illinois. He gets 0% of the electoral votes.

Your vote does NOTHING for your candidate BECAUSE of the electoral college.

@Cruiser When looking at that map, do you ever wonder why the defining characteristic of all those redlands is nearly always endemic poverty? Why is it that the more run down and destitute an area becomes, the redder it gets? Your own state of Illinois would have the economy of Arkansas were it not for Chicago. Indeed one of the things I find most peculiar about this country is that those rabid conservatives most agitated about government meddling and overreach along with the profligate wasteful spending of irresponsible liberals-those folks would be living third world lives were it not for the revenues transferred through the despised Federal government from prospering blue places. NOTHING compares with delusional conservatives when it comes to matters of voting and championing measures clearly against their own interests.

@Call_Me_Jay please enlighten me how I am misunderstand the functioning of the electoral college? The mere fact that my vote I cast for Trump is indeed overridden by the majority of Illinois votes that went for Hillary is fair play….and hip hip hurrah Hillary won the illinois electoral votes….EXACTLY how the electoral college was designed to function. The same scenario played our in each state and guess what??? Trump got the most electoral votes and he is now our President elect. IMHO a veritable Hobsons choice.

@stanleybmanly Sadly the economy of Chicago does not trickle down to Centralia or Vandalia Illinois. If you ever drive through our capital of Springfield it is akin to a Hollywood set. Pretty shiny Capital like vistas but go around the back of the facade and it is all stick and timber props. Illinois is and has been enjoying the worst economic times of any state in our country and it all started when Obama was a junior senator. So for ten plus long years I have watch our state wither and struggle while Indiana and Wisconsin suck up good paying jobs from companies looking for some relief from the democratic dictatorships of Madigan and Emanuel. Thankfully our Republican/Independent businessman Governor Rauner is not backing down from the strong arm tactics thrown his way by the established Dem dickheads and I see light at the end of the tunnel that my state will someday soon move up from the bottom of the worst managed states in the US.

No other democracy has an electoral college. Could there be a good reason?.....

Regardless of where you live, in this day and age, you can easily get information on the candidates. I see the EC as a outdated and obsolete.

It no longer makes any sense.

The Electoral college was intended to alter the number of votes in accordance with population changes.

It was fixed in 1911.

Thus, the Electoral college system is based on the population metrics of 105 years ago.

It’s hardly able to take into account the fact that well over half the country lives in a few states, and this it unfairly weights the rural vote.

Now, the GOP loves this because it works in their favor, but to be honest I don’t care if you live in Maine or Alaska, your vote should count the same as a vote from Illinois or California.

We’re a nation of people first and foremost, not states.

What we have now is a society where people with like values tending to move to locales that serve those values. The Electoral college doesn’t reflect that. And that is a problem.

The EC is the only thing standing between the more populated areas voting for their intetests and leaving the rural areas with no voice and destitute. If the populations were flopped it would still work the same way. The EC makes perfect sense. Only thing that may need to change is the EC votes may need to be rearranged periodically to keep the system fair.

It used to be rearranged as needed.

But if people are fleeing en masse from rural areas, the answer is not to give those areas more power to make policy decisions.

If your state is so great, why does no one want to live there?

^Disagree… Better to scrap it.

It would just be unfairly manipulated.

Remember that the Republicans tried to rezone Florida, so it would benefit them?

Most votes wins. What’s not fair about that?

Lots of people where I live prefer to live in rural areas. Their dollar goes further. Bigger house,more toys. Lots of people work in Charleston, but live 30–40 minutes away.

Living in rural areas doesn’t mean you’re destitute.

People have cars now,to commute. And they can get information from a phone. They don’t need to get their news from a horse every few weeks.

I can’t think of a single reason to keep the EC. It makes as much sense as the time change.

And it’s time for a change.

@MrGrimm888 Even if we wanted to just “scrap it” it will take a constitutional amendment. Good luck with that, besides there is nothing that says we can’t work to make it a fair system. The whole “mob rule” argument that many feel to be somewhat cliche is still a pretty valid argument for the EC. 50 years from now I can see people fleeing the cities for more rural areas. It’s not like this is a static, stable population system. 51% of the people should not be allowed to strip the rights away from the other 49% who have a completely different set of needs and lifestyle.

Contrariwise, that 49 shouldn’t be able to Lord it over the 51.

I don’t think their needs are so different. We all need jobs, infrastructure, health care, decent diplomacy to avoid conflict , a level headed thinker,and strong leadership.

The rest are details that can largely be dealt with on a grass roots,or state level.

@Seek of course, that would be mob rule as well. I don’t like the outcome of this election any more than anyone else but killing the the EC is not really the answer, we’ll never get it back. We really should work to maintain its fairness though.

I hadn’t realized the weights weren’t being actively adjusted as the population moves around. That seems totally ridiculous to me.

@Mariah That’s because it is ridiculous, there is no “seems to be” about it.

@Seek Eight years ago the electoral college voted in Barack Obama…please enlighten me how that benefited even one Republican??

…..but Obama got the popular vote, too.

^Yup….....

The EC also discourages voters.My state has been,maybe always will be red. I know of several people who just throw their hands up and don’t “waste their time voting when it won’t matter…..”

Taking away the EC would level the current playing field IMO.

@Mariah My point is simple and specific and why I offered the info in my last answer. 3–5 states have the sheer population numbers to elect a President….founding Fathers sensed this dynamic and why they created the Electoral College. It is borderline insane to debate it’s necessity of EC which gives voice to the votes of the rural folks…why is this such a difficult concept for people to appreciate the sheer genius of the EC??

Why? Because everyone on the left is butthurt right now and needs something to blame. I think getting rid of the EC is a pretty moronic thing to even consider. Not keeping it balanced and updated is pretty idiodic too. I don’t think that it would have made a difference in this case though.

Because in very recent memory we’ve had two terrible conservative presidents elected without 50% of the popular vote because of the EC. I understand the EC is supposed to promote the rights of the states and I am okay with that. But why did we decide that 49% of people in rural areas’ needs are more important than 51% of people in cities?

@Cruiser.

3–5 states don’t have 50% percent of the population. I could tell you the real number but do it yourself if you want to redeem your reputation. Your every word has to be fact checked. You’re not a reliable source. You’re not believable.

That’s putting it kindly.

And your logic isn’t any better. You’re making the assumption that states vote 100% for one candidate.

Which is exactly what DOES NOT happen with the popular vote.

You know how many states have to be counted to get Clinton over 50% with 2016 results?

The answer is 49 states. 49 states. Every vote counts.

Stop posting your bullshit. You’ve illustrated exactly why Trump got elected. A huge number of people don’t have the reasoning skills to make a responsible decision, and the Republicans know how to exploit them with dishonest claims that agree with their uninformed beliefs.

@Call_Me_Jay I was more focused on actual voters. When you consider that on average only 30–40 percent of eligible voters actually voted, the voters in these 3–5 states are the lions share of all voters in the general election. The electoral college levels the playing field for the other states with a fraction of voters. Be real….one county outside LA would have more voters than the entire state of Rhode Island…can you offer another way to have a fairer way of electing the most important head of state for our country?

If that county has more people, why is it less important than the state?

@Cruiser I really don’t understand why it’s unfair. The top 20 cities in population is probably 30 million people. Let’s say ¾ vote. I’m sure it’s not that high. So, 23 million. Something like 120 million people vote I think. The suburbs and rural areas have plenty of votes.

California was 61% Clinton.

New York 58% Clinton.

Plenty of votes go to Republican candidates in blue states.

Geeze louise….Our country has 50 states each one in this Union was given an equal voice by the electoral college regardless of population…can anyone think of a fairer system than the electoral college?

One could argue EC makes it more unfair because those 58% of votes made the whole state of NY go to Clinton whereas in a popular vote the conservative upstate would be represented instead of being anihilated by NYC.

What? They’re not equal in the EC. More populous states get more electoral votes.

What’s wrong with considering ourselves a collection of people instead of a collection of states, whose boundaries are defined basically arbitrarily?

States don’t matter. People matter.

Is Rhode Island really so different from CT, MA, DE, and even NH, that we have to worry their opinions and needs aren’t heard in the vote for president?

The country is more regional than state driven. People in southern IL aren’t thrilled with Chicago decisions a lot of the time I would bet.

I think if you want to keep it with the states, fine. But, how about splitting the electoral votes to represent the people in the state?

@Cruiser I was more focused on actual voters

No, you aren’t. You’re bullshitting. You’re arguing that each state needs votes “regardless of the population. States aren’t voters.

Whether you’re deliberately dishonest or just confused, I don’t care. Same result. It’s sad and disappointing.

Christ @Mariah Clearly it is a weighted sytem brilliantly designed by our founding fathers who had foresight to give equal voice to the rural farmers who have needs the same as the big city bankers….is that really that hard to understand??

@Cruiser I see you’re getting frustrated with me. Not my intention. You literally said the states were equal under EC so I was trying to make sure we were on the same page.

Again, if there are fewer farmers than cityfolk, why are their needs more important?

@Cruiser So, why not weight the electoral vote within the state? Some states allow for it, but rarely do it. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

@Mariah I am positing that a farmers vote, a person living in a shelter, a business owner even gazillionaires all get a vote that ultimately has a chance to equally mean something. If it was winner takes all…again 5 states instead of all 50 states would decide who is our President. I am dumbfounded why this is such a difficult concept????

The country has a lot of people living in rural and small towns. “Urban” is defined not as you would expect when you look at statistics. You have to know the specific definition whatever stat you are looking at is using. Some studies count towns as small as 3,000 as urban. That’s ridiculous in my book. Dense suburbs over 50k are almost always considered urban in statistics.

@JLeslie Living in Illinois I would LOVE an electoral college type system….Mike Madigan and Rham would be long gone.

The top 5 states make up about ⅓ of the population, but the whole state doesn’t vote one way! The electoral college does.

@Cruiser Are we talking about the same thing? You would be happy to have the electors of IL match the popular vote?

Their votes all count equally in the popular vote too. I’m not understanding why you don’t get this.

The EC makes them count unequally by giving states with fewer people a larger percentage of the pie. It over counts the farmer, even though the majority of the people affected by the president’s decisions live in cities.

In the popular vote, the farmer gets one vote. The sheltered person gets one vote. The business owner gets one vote. The billionaire gets one vote.

In the EC, if the farmer lives in upstate NY, his vote gets wiped out by the cityfolk.

As Leslie has said, the states do not vote anywhere near homogenously so you will never ever end up with 5 states taking the whole thing.

I literally think that the only reason you suddenly love the EC is that your candidate would have lost without it.

@JLeslie Clinton won 55% of the Illinois vote…this map shows how lopsided the vote really was and how the beat down farmers vote pretty much didn’t matter. Chicago gets to decide what is best for our state and they are beholden morons and another reason why Trump is our President elect.

That’s BECAUSE of the EC! If it were popular vote you wouldn’t have the whole state’s decision made by Chicago alone!

I’m sorry for getting frustrated and potentially rude. I’ll go to bed and reconsider with fresh eyes tomorrow.

@Mariah I admire you and respect you…but it is late on a Sunday night and not the best of times to school you on our constitution and why it is the way it was written a couple hundred years ago. Good night friend.

Right. The farmers count for nothing in your state because of the EC.

@JLeslie Not sure what you mean….despite the fact that over 90% of the Illinois map went red, Hillary won Illinois.

^^Well, if you didn’t have the current EC system the whole state wouldn’t be blue on the electoral map. You would have a hole bunch of red votes showing up from there. Not only votes, but a visual of where the state really stands.

Why the hell is so much emphasis being put on “poor farmers?” Is this 1880?

There are very few farmers left. Most are either super farmers, making millions, or small farmers ,using government subsidies to scrape by, when they shouldn’t be doing a job rendered obsolete so long ago.

There aren’t millions of poor farmers ,that need the EC to have a voice. The one thing farmers DO need is immigrants to pick their crops. Whose going to pick tomatoes when 11 million immigrants are deported? White men? Unlikely. ..

Poor farmers need a voice is THE dumbest thing I’ve heard yet. IF there were lots of poor farmers, why would they vote Trump. He would only hurt them. Although that hasn’t stopped the real idiots.

In fact lots of real life people who actually exist,union workers, fucked themselves by voting Trump. Women, and minorities who voted Trump didn’t do themselves any favors either.

I still can’t understand why @Cruiser can’t grasp the fact that people in large cities don’t all vote for one person. But if his “facts” are any indication of his intelligence, I guess I see why….

His rhetoric is sadly revealing why so many voted for Trump. Ignorance, and racism top the list.

If we’re talking about a fairly weighted EC, than we ARE talking about 1880. Just throwing that out there.

Could you elaborate @SEEK ?

I’m not sure I’m picking up what you’re putting down.

There was a discussion on NPR last night about making changes to the EC. Not eliminating it but changing it so it’s more in line with the vote of the American people.

I’m all for changing it or eliminating it. I’d probably feel the same way even if my candidate won the popular vote but lost the EC vote. I’m not feeling it should be eliminated because of Hillary/Trump. I’m feeling like if it’s not an accurate representation of the votes of the people, it needs to either go or be altered.

At the time of the creation of the EC we didn’t have media and television like today. The whole country can be aware of the news of the day, all the issues across the country, and I think this is part of the argument for not needing the EC anymore as it stands today. We don’t need to weight the people few and far between and give them more power like 200 years ago.

@Cruiser Before this thread runs out, I want to harp once more on your theme of Obama as a failure. I believe your assessment flawed, and that history will vindicate Obama for his achievements against tall odds. The 2 extraordinary factors unique to His Presidency were his arrival to meet head on with the greatest financial crisis in the history of the world coincidental with the unprecedented announcement from the Republican Congress that its first priority was to assure his Presidency a failure NO MATTER WHAT. The truly shameful performance of that Congress in sacrificing the country to hamstring the President is one clear reason the GOP and the rest of us are now saddled with the orange man. The other biggie to my mind is the financial crisis, the repercussions of which could not possibly be achieved in 8 years in the face of a Congress with the avowed goal of noncooperation. The truth is that Obama was compelled to double the debt in order to head off the end of the world. It is not unfair to state that Trump’s success is the consequence of that day 8 years ago when those Americans outside the top 5% watched 16.4 trillion dollars of their net worth disappear overnight. The shakeout from the collapse plagues us yet, and the miracle is that we have already regained about half of that net worth. The insidious truth about that “good news” is that the bulk of that 8 trillion dollars of recovery did not go to the folks who lost their jobs and houses. It was sucked up by the very 2–5% responsible for the very meltdown still hobbling the rest of us. If you are concerned now about the national debt, you should hold on to your hat, because if you expect fiscal responsibility on the part of the Donald you’re out of your mind. The man has already told us that we’re in for his version of “economic stimulus”, and you can bet your ass that a prudent accounting of our money is not what should be expected from a man whose history predicts his greatest potential will be in slapping his name on as many national monuments and Federal projects as he can get away with.

If we’re talking about a fairly weighted EC, than we ARE talking about 1880

@MrGrimm888 In 1880 a lot more people lived in rural areas, so the influence of a popular vote was probably more equal across the country.

Probably. I don’t have time this morning to make a spreadsheet with 1880s numbers and tell you with certainty.

@Cruiser I have the same respect for you. Despite any arguments we’ve had, I really appreciate that for the most part we can talk super civilly about this stuff even despite our large differences. But, even though I’m young, please don’t talk to me like I’m ignorant. I don’t need to be “schooled” – I went to school, a lot of it, I studied history and politics, I studied the Constitution and the EC, I understand how the EC works and why it was implemented, I don’t oppose it out of ignorance, I understand it and I still oppose it. That is possible, you know.

I don’t understand why you support it given the arguments you’re making; if you’re tired of Chicago blowing away the rest of your states’ votes, then logically you should oppose the EC. In the popular vote, the rural parts of Illinois get their say. In the EC, Chicago overrules the rest of the state and whole state goes blue.

Buffalo, NY is about as culturally different from NYC as is humanly possible. Most of upstate NY is very conservative, but NY is consistently a blue state. Because Buffalo and NYC exist within the same arbitrary boundary that we have named “New York state”, everybody upstate gets their votes completely blown away. In the popular vote, at least the 42% of NY that voted for Trump would have their votes actually go to Trump instead of the way it is in the EC, where the whole state went to Clinton.

I dunno man, feels like I’m beating a dead horse at this point. You’re entitled to your opinion. But I am too, and I want you to recognize that it is not an opinion of ignorance.

Things are clearly out of kilter as our population increasingly abandons the heartland for opportunities in the cities. The dilution of our rural population leaves those stranded with increasingly inordinate political power for their numbers, resulting from the archaic design of our system in which for example both California and Idaho get 2 Senators apiece. The negative consequences of such a setup grow more alarmingly apparent as we watch. This drain of the best and brightest from flyover country is now beyond the ideal of the heartland as a reservoir of talent feeding the population centers. Corporate farming has rendered rural living a prospect for the retired and indigent as all who can escape now do so in droves. When you think about it, the insidious consequences of the corporatization of our agrarian enterprises have a reach almost beyond our understanding. For example, I bet not one American in ten thousand realizes that the wave of migrants assaulting our borders are a direct result of this corporate model rendering it impossible to earn a living in rural Mexico. NAFTA guaranteed migration from places lacking the safety valve of prosperous population centers. In our own case, the increasing deterioration of economic opportunities in decaying rural America assures ever more obtuse political shenanigans as the concentration of “low information” folks climbs beyond critical tolerances. The “Mariahs” don’t stick around to balance the political input, so the Brownbacks thrive and reap havoc on the already suffering multitudes.

The EC originally changed and updated to keep the number if votes proportional to the population.

They were fixed in 1911, and don’t change any more.

So, the weight of the Electoral college reflects the population metrics of 105 years ago.

If it hadn’t been frozen in 1911, we might be seeing very different numbers.

Imagine if California broke into three states?! That would probably help the liberals get more electoral votes. Can Cali do it without federal approval? I bet it can. I’ve heard before that people are in favor of breaking up California. It could backfire though.

Ok. I gave him his chance. It’s over now.

^^LOL.

Sorry @Mariah and @stanleybmanly simply ran out of gas on this one and do appreciate your thoughts and words. Everyone put some great thoughts into this subject.

It looks like 1880 wasn’t really better. There are a lot of ways to measure this, and my eyes are crossed from trying them, but here is one take on it.

I compared the number of votes cast per state to the number of its electoral votes.
The least-represented state gets a value of 1.0, and the rest go up from there.

In 2016, Florida voters effectively got 1 vote each where Wyoming voters got 3.83
In 1880, Kansas voters effectively got 1 vote each where Nevada voters got 6.58

But Wyoming in 2016 and Nevada in 1880 had very few voters. They got a lot of bang for their buck, but they didn’t sway the election. So everything in between the extremes is important, too.

Where good-sized states had a big per vote value, so a big impact on the election, it looks like the South as a whole was very over-represented in 1880, and the West in 2016.

Electoral Value of 1 Popular Vote (lowest = 1)
Year | Value | State
1880 | 6.58 | Nevada
1880 | 5.51 | Rhode_Island
1880 | 4.10 | Delaware
1880 | 3.12 | Florida
1880 | 3.12 | Vermont
1880 | 3.08 | Louisiana
1880 | 2.96 | Oregon
1880 | 2.81 | Georgia
1880 | 2.75 | Mississippi
1880 | 2.65 | Alabama
1880 | 2.33 | New_Hampshire
1880 | 2.25 | Colorado
1880 | 2.24 | Arkansas
1880 | 2.09 | Virginia
1880 | 1.99 | Tennessee
1880 | 1.96 | Maine
1880 | 1.87 | Maryland
1880 | 1.85 | Massachusetts
1880 | 1.82 | Connecticut
1880 | 1.81 | Kentucky
1880 | 1.79 | West_Virginia
1880 | 1.67 | North_Carolina
1880 | 1.66 | South_Carolina
1880 | 1.52 | Missouri
1880 | 1.51 | Wisconsin
1880 | 1.47 | New_Jersey
1880 | 1.47 | California
1880 | 1.38 | Nebraska
1880 | 1.37 | Iowa
1880 | 1.36 | Illinois
1880 | 1.33 | Minnesota
1880 | 1.33 | Pennsylvania
1880 | 1.33 | Texas
1880 | 1.28 | Indiana
1880 | 1.28 | New_York
1880 | 1.25 | Michigan
1880 | 1.22 | Ohio
1880 | 1.00 | Kansas

Electoral Value of 1 Popular Vote (lowest = 1)
Year | Value | State
2016 | 3.83 | Wyoming
2016 | 3.30 | Alaska
2016 | 3.15 | D._C.
2016 | 3.11 | Vermont
2016 | 3.05 | Hawaii
2016 | 2.85 | North_Dakota
2016 | 2.83 | Rhode_Island
2016 | 2.65 | South_Dakota
2016 | 2.27 | West_Virginia
2016 | 2.22 | Delaware
2016 | 2.05 | New_Mexico
2016 | 2.00 | Nebraska
2016 | 1.98 | Montana
2016 | 1.89 | Idaho
2016 | 1.80 | Utah
2016 | 1.78 | Maine
2016 | 1.76 | New_Hampshire
2016 | 1.75 | Nevada
2016 | 1.74 | Arkansas
2016 | 1.71 | Kansas
2016 | 1.62 | Mississippi
2016 | 1.58 | Oklahoma
2016 | 1.49 | California
2016 | 1.44 | Tennessee
2016 | 1.41 | Arizona
2016 | 1.40 | South_Carolina
2016 | 1.39 | Connecticut
2016 | 1.39 | Alabama
2016 | 1.39 | Texas
2016 | 1.36 | Kentucky
2016 | 1.33 | New_York
2016 | 1.32 | Indiana
2016 | 1.29 | Louisiana
2016 | 1.28 | Georgia
2016 | 1.25 | Iowa
2016 | 1.22 | Maryland
2016 | 1.21 | Washington
2016 | 1.19 | New_Jersey
2016 | 1.19 | Illinois
2016 | 1.18 | Missouri
2016 | 1.16 | Oregon
2016 | 1.11 | Massachusetts
2016 | 1.11 | Minnesota
2016 | 1.10 | Wisconsin
2016 | 1.09 | Ohio
2016 | 1.09 | Michigan
2016 | 1.08 | Pennsylvania
2016 | 1.07 | Virginia
2016 | 1.06 | Colorado
2016 | 1.04 | North_Carolina
2016 | 1.00 | Florida

Yes, I give anybody a chance. I think he is probably better than Hillary, anyhow.