Why are most anti-abortion people also against government aid? (Details)

They believe in personal responsibility and believe life begins at conception.

”...personal responsibility…”

Yes, it’s every baby and infant out for himself/herself.

Well. They don’t want the unborn child to die. But after its born, they lose all sympathy, because “they’re ” paying for its food,health care etc.

It seems incredibly hipocrital to want to force a woman to have a child they can’t realistically support, but not help the child once it’s born….

I wonder about this too.

I took personal responsibility, @JLeslie, but sometimes shit happens that’s out of your control and sometimes you need some help.

^We ALL need help at some point. That’s why humans developed tribes. It takes the contributions of many for society to survive.

“It takes a village. ” (HC)

I didn’t know that Hypocrisy_Central said “It takes a village”. ;-o

@Dutchess_III ”...sometimes you need some help.”

You do know that @JLeslie agrees with you and is merely explaining the opposing view?

They believe that the value of a human life peaks at the moment of conception, declines steadily from the moment of birth, and drops to zero once adulthood is reached.

@Brian1946 . Hillary Clinton.

Not @Hypocrisy_Central this time…Although I’m sure you’re already aware of this.

Right, I used “they” not “we.” I’m not one of those people, I’m just stating how they think. I do believe in personal responsibility to a point, but yeah, even people who do everything right can have random things happen that require a helping hand. I’m pro-choice, I think you know that @Dutchess_III. I also am in favor of socialized medicine, public education, etc. I know people who are pro life who are so vocal about not giving their tax dollars to the poor it’s mind boggling. Including things like basic education. They often do do charitable work though, or give money to charities. They just have a really big thing about the government doing any of it.

Part of being conservative is personal accountability and a strong work ethic.

Don’t get pregnant if you cannot take care of a baby. That is where the choice is. Your attempted rationale of if one doesn’t want the mother to kill her baby they should have to pay to raise it is foolish and moronic.

^I don’t think it’s foolish. We help people in other countries all the time. Why not help American people?

@MollyMcGuire and what choice does the baby born to impoverished parents have?

@AnonymousAccount8 @MrGrimm888 Try to stay on topic. Attempting to change the subject doesn’t work here.

@MollyMcGuire you cite personal accountability as a reason for governments not to give aid to parents of limited means. Yet it is blameless children who suffer as a result.

Seems on subject to me….

So @MollyMcGuire . Why do other countries’ citizens deserve our aid, but not our own people?

”Most” is a nebulous term and when used to describe those who are in the Fluther sacred cow, would be said to be stereotypical, I do not oppose food stamps, and such, what I am against is not to have a what next. What is needed is steps to help those who need it have homes then training to take care and feed their own self. It sounds good in the echo chamber but it is not totally accurate.

@MollyMcGuire Hey, hold on there, moronic? Very mean to call names like that.

It’s very on point to talk about the child. You want to save the child, the child is an innocent life now, and a part of our country and society. How that child is raised affects all of us. You might think God just cares the soul is saved to live on our planet, but society should care selfishly that the person grown up to be a happy well functioning part of society, and altruistically that the soul doesn’t suffer through starvation or living in squalor.

If society prevents a mother from having an abortion, effectively that child is a child of all of ours, and we have to decide if we want “our” children to live in a certain minimal way.

The baby you save to a mother who doesn’t want it and can’t afford it, by making abortion against the law, might be living a few blocks away from you. Especially, if it’s illegal and the culture shifts to truly accepting that if you get pregnant you must have the baby—no choice. You will have people who don’t take “personal responsibility” in much much higher numbers than now.

Should society be burdened by the selfishness of the woman who had a child by the product of her lust, or should society be selfish of itself and have no concerned over the child? What a conundrum. Where I personally side on society stepping up for the child, even before it breathed air, at some point you have to bring some accountability to the woman who can’t stay off her back. I say there should be some sort of sanctions after child two, or the second child with a different person and no union knotted with either of them. Then, why would society want to do the right thing, if they do not want to train the woman to be productive but hand her a dole every month and if she dared tried to get ahead? In short, the government cares less of the woman as the child, so what society believes should be done with the child is basically moot

Like, there wasn’t a father there, doing his fair share of the lusting?

^ Like, there wasn’t a father there, doing his fair share of the lusting?
Never said there wasn’t, the lynch pin in that, is HE is not the gatekeeper, the only way he gets in is if he has the magic words, which is not ”Open says me” but usually ”I love you”, or ”If you love me you….”. Unless he possesses Jedi mind tricks, he don’t get squat without here allowing access. Tell me that is a lie, aside of rape?

Or if he rapes her.

There are any number of things to be considered. My son and his wife unexpectedly had a 4th kid, while she was on birth control. She took antibiotics, not realizing that it can negate the birth control.

^ Or if he rapes her.
I said aside from rape you tell me if it is a lie that the woman is the ultimate gatekeeper to her own vagina?

@HC, what does this have to do with the topic in question?

^I think HC’s saying,in his usually non sugar coated way, that he thinks there should be more accountability or, or not just a blank check for women having multiple children.

Promiscuity is not the sole origin of unplanned pregnancy tbough.

Like @Dutchess_III said, antibiotics can make birth control ineffective. Also condoms can break, and I personally know a few girls that had IUDs that failed. Maybe the ‘ol pull and pray, wasn’t performed correctly…. There are more variables than just unprotected sex.

@Hypocrisy_Central . Pregnancy is not as black and white, as you’re making it. It’s much more grey.

We (as a nation) are capable of, need to take care of our children. As mentioned above, we’re all in it together.

Think of the positives too.

One of these welfare kids might grow up to cure the disease you would have died of 30 years from now.

One of them could discover an Earth bound meteor that nobody else saw, in time to save us all.

One of them could save you from drowning, or help you change your tire.

A child is full of potential. But it needs food, clothing,health care, and education.

If you support the child in the womb, you should support it once it’s born too.IMO…

@AnonymousAccount8 @HC, what does this have to do with the topic in question?
What does the man’s involvement have to do with it? Someone injected a comment about the man, when he in the case of this question, is irrelevant, he has no say either in wiping the child out, letting him/her be birth, or even if a situation to conception is even plausible.

@MrGrimm888 Pregnancy is not as black and white, as you’re making it. It’s much more grey.
There is Grayer in reasons the poor remains poor, or the middle class fail to get ahead than there is pregnancies. It is a lot less Gray than some try to make it, but then people gray things out or blacken them depending on how much they agree then how it actually is.

If you support the child in the womb, you should support it once it’s born too.IMO…
Of some of the aforementioned things, it is imperative not to lose a single life born or unborn to selfishness. I am all for taking care of the child once it is born. It is usually adults who jack it off. That is why I advocate accountability for child support, I say there should be over sight to see the money is actually spent ON THE CHILD. I have heard and seen enough cases where at times the money is doled out but the state cares not how it is spent. The child is wearing secondhand clothes, or the cheapest stuff that can be purchased and the mom’s car always have fuel, she doesn’t miss an appointment to get a hair weave.

^Well. I’ll agree reform is desperately needed for most government aid….

@MrGrimm888, ”.....thinks there should be more accountability or, or not just a blank check for women having multiple children….” There you guys go again. Ignoring the fact that everyone of these babies have a father. The mothers end up on welfare (and it is FAR from a “blank check.” More like a recipe of misery and uncertainty. ) becasue the _fathers don’t step up to support them.
Maybe if we forced the fathers to have more accountability, they’d think twice before impregnating women, helter skelter.

Sigh…I was attempting to interpret what HC was saying. I wasn’t speaking for him, or myself….

Everyone says HC hates women. After many of these conversations, I get the impression that he just really hates abortions. It’s perfectly fine for him to be repulsed by the act. I’m not, but I understand why some are.

IMO.If you sift through the ‘sexist’ rhetoric, you’ll find he’s really trying to defend unborn children. And he clearly doesn’t care if he offends anyone.

I don’t agree with his stance. But I think I understand it…

Understanding each other is important…

Maybe he is sexist, but I feel like his rhetoric is misdirected anger about something he’s very passionate about… Unless he’s bombing abortion clinics, let him have his opinion.

@MrGrimm888 IMO.If you sift through the ‘sexist’ rhetoric, you’ll find he’s really trying to defend unborn children. And he clearly doesn’t care if he offends anyone.
My experience is people will get offended when their sacred cow is shown to have feet of clay. People like their reasoning when it supports whatever cockamamie ideal or ideology they want to believe in, when the same reasoning can be used to debunk what they believe, they try to sex it up, redefine it, or simply attack the person exposing their sacred cow as crazy, and because they have the numbers pat each other on the back as if they are right, just as those who believed the world was flat; numbers don’t make right.

Maybe he is sexist, but I feel like his rhetoric is misdirected anger about something he’s very passionate about…
There is no misguided or misdirected anger at abortions, it is a righteous anger because people are using a method selfishly to avoid a byproduct of their own lust (and let’s not be stupid and try to say most abortions where done by married women whose birth control failed.). Having kid is a selfish act because the child had no choice, but at least it is alive to have choices and a life later, with abortion there is no chance at living and is a more egregious selfishness. Ion this conversation since women want to be the sole decider, if there was a man (a toothless, voiceless man) it plays no part, because just as the law gives her the choice of state sanctioned murder, no pregnancies happen to her if she never lays on her back and spreads her legs, less rape which doesn’t count. No one has yet to find anything that can dispute or debunk that, I don’t care if anyone tries to justify it as unrealistic, prove it isn’t true, if she never hops in the back with some bloke will he get her pregnant? They never answer that because they know they can’t. What they want to is to have their cake and eat it too, but when I give them the cake and they choke on it, they get huffy.