In four years if Trump delivers big time will the Democrats remain defiant?

First you need to define success.

If he was successful he would raise the minimum wage, provide single payer healthcare, put people to work building infrastructure that doesn’t involve a wall, make community colleges free to low income people, appoint supreme court justices that care about a woman’s right to choose.

I could go on but I won’t bother.

If he does that stuff I will get a MAGA tattoo.

But my hunch is the dow is down at the end of his first term by 2K and the unemployment rate is over 6% and GDP growth is under 2%.

I am willing to bet up to 1k on my predictions. Since there are three variables I would need some time to work out what would be acceptable odds.

My biggest concern with Trump is his picks for the courts. Every indication shows he will choose right wing conservative neo-nazi radical extremists.
If he makes sane picks for the judiciary, improves the economy, and doesn’t start wars over petty, insane tweets, I may support him.

Trump is Trump and in four years time he will still be Trump. You don’t vote for Trump and expect to get Abraham Lincoln.

The duty of the opposition is to oppose

If he improves international relations so the world is a more peaceful place, if the middle class grows and becomes more prosperous, if college becomes more affordable, and if healthcare becomes more affordable and available to everyone, I’ll be the first to be happy about it and give Trump some credit. If it includes crazy shit like marginalizing certain groups, or oppressing them, or anything quite obviously bigoted then the bet’s off.

Silly question…of course they will! Unless he provides free Pabst for all Americans he will be judged an abject failure.

He would have to successfully fight Climate Change. (he is a Climate Science denier).
He would have to implement Single Payer Healthcare. (he has vowed to repeal the ACA)
He would have to successfully negotiate the 2 State Solution between Israel and Palestine. (His pick for ambassador to Israel denies Palestine’s right to exist)
He would have to respect and enforce women’s rights to abortion nationwide. (he vowed to install pro-life judges that would overturn Roe vs Wade.)
He would have to protect and expand workers’ rights. (his pick for labour secretary has a history of doing the complete opposite.)
He would have to expand and enforce regulations on industry, especially the banking industry (he wants to deregulate, deregulate, deregulate)
He would have to enforce and expand environmental protections. (his EPA staff pick is a fossil fuel shill.)

So basically, he would have to do the complete opposite of what his promises and staff picks indicate he wants to do.
If he does that, and the chances for that are next to zero, then I am sure Democrats would acknowledge that.
side note, not seeing any conservatives being humble enough to acknowledge Obama’s successes, so Democrats have zero incentive to be any different

Most people that I know who don’t support Trump just want what’s best for the country. They ,and certainly myself included, would probably love him being successful.

The Republicans are the ones who don’t play ball no matter what. They would rather see the country fail than a Democrat lead it in the right direction,and gain a successful image. They spent the last 8 years trying to stop EVERYTHING Obama tried to do. They will spend the next 4 trying to undo what little he could accomplish.

Why would anyone wish failure on Trump? We’re past the point where that would benefit anyone. We now have to hope he gets his shit together, and does what the idiots who voted for him think he can.

I keep seeing these type of questions. What has Trump done to instill ANY faith in him being a good president?...

The sheep really have the wool pulled over their eyes lately.

All Trump ever did was make a big bullshit casserole, and his supporters just can’t stop eating it. I’m afraid for the country and the world with Trump at the wheel. But I really, genuinely pity the mental capacity of his followers. Pathetic judgement skills…..

@MrGrimme888 Why would anyone wish failure on Trump? Because they’re afraid of the other Republican politicians, or they are Republican politicians themselves.

In the eight years Obama delivered many big times didn’t the Republicans remain defiant? It’s called politics.

^Well politics blows….

I’m frankly sick of it. Have been for a long time…

If by successful, you mean doing what he promises to do then I can in no way view that as successful. Deporting all illegal immigrants, barring Muslim immigration, overturning Roe v Wade, getting rid of the ACA and allowing laws against the LBGT community do not register with me as successes.

This raises the question:
How “successful” was Hitler?

“Delivers” exactly what?

We already had this question.

If someone does something that is the opposite of everything you believe in, why would you support that person? Just because he is “successful” does not mean you should follow him by default.

His success would be the seen as the downfall in his opponents’ eyes. It’s like saying “Everything you do leads to destruction of this country, but you’re doing your job well, so you have my thumbs up.”

?!

I expect whining to continue. I expect it to drown our those who voice legit concerns and I expect the same when the tables turn in four years when we have a democrat in office. Trump is not like Hitler, Obama was not the antichrist, Bush jr was not a warmongering oil profiteer.

@ARE_you_kidding_me
There is only one true statement in your entire post.

Aside from your wit which is in a way refreshing I have yet to take more than a handfull of your posts seriously in the seven or so years I have been posting to this site.

It might be true of anyone, not just Trump. And that “if” is a very big one.

There’s a certain tribal strain of political thinking, succinctly summed up in @josie ‘s comment “The duty of the opposition is to oppose”, where one’s political identity derives from opposition to some other entity. In other words, if they’re for it, then we’re against it.

That idea has always been around, but it has usually been tempered by the realization that there are common goals that we can all rally around, and that a good idea is a good idea, even if somebody else came up with it.

Over the past 8 years, we’ve seen the most extreme version of oppositional politics modeled. Here’s the scary thing: as a strategy for getting political power, it has been amazingly effective. Which means that for those whose sole concern is getting power, this has now become the operative model.

Game theory is informative here. It suggests that in situations where two parties can either cooperate to mutual benefit, or one of the parties can “defect” and screw the other party for selfish advantage, the best long-term strategy is cooperation. BUT, if one of the parties does defect, then the best strategy is for the other party to also stop cooperating.

At the beginning of the Obama administration, the Republican party defected from even the pretense of cooperation. What should the Democrats now do?

I’m pretty sure the defection happened long before Obama.

I would be tickled pink if he did a good job. I would acknowledge it, too. But look at what he’s done so far. Look at the types of people he’s put in his cabinet. It does not look good at all.

And then there is this “The Trump transition said Trump directed his counsel to take the necessary steps to dissolve the foundation, which has no employees or active fundraising operation. The foundation also was forced to stop fundraising in New York State after New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman issued a cease-and-desist order in October citing the foundation’s failure to properly register with the state.
And an ongoing investigation launched by Schneiderman over allegations Trump used the charity to settle private legal disputes in which he was involved may prevent Trump from shuttering the foundation.”

We would have don as well to elect Al Capone.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Well, if people want to trash Trump the way the Republicans trashed Obama, the good part is they won’t have to make ridiculous stuff up to do it.

Some of the concentration camp, WWIII banter is right up there with the antichrist and birther stuff. He is a very easy target though. He really needs to shut up, it would be a lot harder if he did.

What concentration camp banter? Is it referring to Trump?

Yeah, how he is going to put people in them. Even Flutherites are saying that but with sarcasm.

The party bosses will sure, the people are more realistic however.

It will depend on the cost of his success.

What did he have to do? What was the cost both emotionally and physically? Is my water safe to drink or do I have to purchase potable stuff from a private(ized) third party? Can I still see the sky? Can I breath without a respirator (available from Walmart, $119.99, comes in designer colors)? Do we still have any fish left to catch? Can I swim in the ocean without having to get cancer treatments later? Is the radiation poisoning covered by my insurance after the first $50,000.00 deductible? Are there still elephants? Is there still a Middle East or is it now the Confederated States of Zion? Do I really have to learn Cyrillic at my advanced age? Will the pain from the brand on my forehead ever go away?

This type of thing.

@ARE_you_kidding_me

The defection

I haven’t heard that rumor about Trump @ARE_you_kidding_me. I heard it about Obama, though.
If / when I do hear it, I’ll blow it off the same way I blew off all the BS about Obama.

One thing that I do think is a possibility will that there will be personal consequences for insulting Trump, the way Obama was insulted.

True @Dutchess_III Remember the nefarious reasons for the FEMA camps? They were set up by Obama for just such a purpose. The people who were responsible for these scaremonger rumors then are the same ones who now say the Democrats are saying the same thing. Historical re-write, just like they are trying to do with who was actually responsible for the massive government impasse for the last eight years (see @thorninmud ‘s link, the defection)

Most politicians keep enemy lists. There are usually consequences if what you are saying strikes a chord with people.

What if it only strikes a chord with 27% of the people @ARE_you_kidding_me?

What I like is how the majority of the Republican Party bosses, the same ones who were saying all those nasty things about Trump, are now on the Trump bandwagon and his ass is probably raw from all those kisses and tongueings. They are going, they believe, to use him for their own purposes. It will be “interesting” to see how that plays out in the long run; who is actually using whom.

No kidding, interesting to say the least. Sucks that we are here but on the bright side it’ll be somewhat worthy of making popcorn.

I find it interesting how the Democrats in 2013 thought it a good thing to “fix the Senate” by invoking the “nuclear option” and can only imagine the degree of buyers remorse coursing through their veins today. Judging by the obstructionist rants in this thread their blood is near the boiling point. With the Cabinet appointment votes right around the corner it must suck to be a Senate Democrat. Any Liberals care to wax poetic about the good ol’ days of the Filibuster??

Some thing I found interesting is that some people expressed fear about Obama throwing dissenters into FEMA camps, yet took absolutely 0 steps to hide their identities.
One guy in town owns a decrepit old building that has a marquee sign out front. For 3 years he had some insult about Obama on that sign.

Would starting world war 3 count as delivering big?

@ARE_you_kidding_me
Good for you. I do not even remember any of yours, that is how insignificant you are.

@cruiser, It would not surprise me if at least some of Trump’s cabinet choices are opposed by a few Republicans, in particular his choices for Attorney General and Secretary of State. The Republicans only have a four vote lead in the Senate, so a few votes could make a big difference.

@LostInParadise I have not heard of any push back by the Republicans on any of his picks. So far mostly praise. But you could be right….we’ll have to wait for the confirmation hearings to start to find out.

Praise for putting a guy who thinks climate change is a hoax in charge of the EPA???

When do we get to start judging him for his actions and words?

@Dutchess_III If you look closer and why he picked people who were critical of him and even opposes climate change is IMO good business to get a diversity of viewpoints. A cabinet of Yes-Men would achieve disastrous results. His picks are to appease and appeal to the broadest cross section of both parties expectations.

Speaking of Global Warming Climate change ;)

No, he isn’t doing to appease anyone. He’s hand picking those who can make him, and all the rich people, wealthier.

@Dutchess_III He won’t be able to pass one bill without his parties support and try not and forget how many in his party actually supported his candidacy. I can think of one…Chris Christie and so far he has been snubbed by Donald.

Bullshit !! complete and utter bullshit http://realclimatescience.com/2016/12/100-of-us-warming-is-due-to-noaa-data-tampering/

Every scientist agrees, and this same bullshit keeps doing the rounds and is quoted by ignorant people who have little to no understanding of how science actually works.

His party will support everything he does, because it is a party of goose steppers.
Just remember how you claimed that conservatives do not really like Trump, and yet you voted for him to the tune of 63 million.
Goose. Steppers.

@cazzie I am hoping the ocean will soon be less than an hours drive from Chicago.

@ragingloli Yeppers, I will be goose stepping all the way to the bank to the tune of over 6 figures a year with the taxes I will save/not have to pay with Trumps tax cuts.

Counting your money isn’t going to feed you when crops won’t grow. But you roll and jack off to your money and the numbers on your bank account if that’s what makes you happy.

@Cruiser
While other people die from or get bankrupted by treatable diseases because they lose their insurance after Trump repeals the ACA.
But that has always been the motto of your ilk. “I got mine, fuck everyone else.”

@ragingloli Yeah I have been getting mine right up the ass with the ACA…when it was passed my family of 4 health insurance premiums went from $1,500 a month to now over $2,100 per month. Multiply that out by 8 employees I provide healthcare coverage for.

My starving artist brother has Obamacare and doesn’t pay a dime for his family of 4. It would be nice to have a discussion with some Jellies who are more informed about Trump…he said he would repeal and replace the ACA, not simply repeal it. There is a LOT of information you don’t get in the liberal mainstream media especially in the 97 percent of ACA enrollees are signing up for Medicaid. For Obama care to actually work the way it was sold we needed over 30 million new subscribers in the exchange who sign up for private health care policies to help subsidize the Medicaid subscribers who are killing the financial math of what ObamaCare was to do. It is a train wreck that few will report the facts on. Facts are kryptonite to the Liberal lies agenda. It is just pure insanity to want a health care program to be affordable and work for all involved….sheer lunacy.~

Hillary lost the election because she promised not to touch Obamacare. Bernie lost because of his own cockamamie healthcare ideas. Trump won the vote of the hard working Rust Belt Americans who understand the need to repeal and replace Obamacare because they like I have had 30% increases in premiums nearly every year. Time for the lies to stop.

Your insurance premiums increased because of the company you are insured with. You sound jealous of your brother. Trump isn’t going to replace because he’s got nothing. Your premiums aren’t going to go down, but your brother and his family will lose his coverage. If you are happy about that, you are one sick puppy.

There are several other countries who can attest that Bernie’s healthcare ideas are NOT ‘cockamamie’.... People who can’t understand these principals are troglodytes and dinosaurs. We need to find a way that will encourage their evolution or their extinction.

If you have health insurance you have “Obama care,” @Cruiser.
The ACA was a set of laws that were passed that ALL insurance companies have to abide by.
It is NOT a type of health insurance.

@cruiser I feel sorry for the starving artist and his family in Trump era, I have two family friends that are currently alive because the could get healthcare for “preexisting” condition. Maybe you can say goodbye to some of those people that wont be covered.

@Cruiser you’re right the pre obamacare system was much better where the uninsured got medical in the ER the government paid for it out of you tax – when bush was in power the us govermbent paid more tax dollars per citizen on healthcare than the UK. And what did you get for that? Zilch. Although I’d rather see you guys flushing your cash down the toilet like that building nukes.

First I am very happy for my brother as they were able to then afford to have my SIL 2 hips replaced something that they couldn’t do before the ACA. Second, Obamacare as it stands is on lifesupport….it will not be able to sustain itself at the current trajectory. My guess is the real story on Obama care is being supressed till Obama leaves office then the real data will be out. Why would you not want the ACA fixed so we ALL can have affordable health care.

Not “big time” but “bigly.”

Yuge.

@Cruiser
Supporters of Obamacare, including Obama, have advocated fixing Obamacare. There’s no way Congress would do that. They are too intent on killing it entirely because it has Obama’s fingerprints on it.

Just one correction I need to make @Cruiser. Hillary said Obamacare needs to be fixed.

I went without health insurance for two years under Obama because we couldn’t afford it. I have thousands in unpaid bills because I needed an echocardiogram and endoscopy during this time. The meds for my husband and myself have more than doubled under Obama. My father can barely pay for his insulin because the price has increased dramatically under Obama. He does without many things just so he can get his life saving insulin.

Can you not see how many of us didn’t see a better future with more of the same with Clinton?

I was a Bernie supporter.

@Cruiser . 30 million were indeed needed for Obama care to work. Which is precisely why Republicans tried their hardest to prevent people from signing up. Many were unable to because they didn’t understand what they were doing, and there weren’t enough “navigators. ” Who were supposed to help citizens get signed up with appropriate plans.

Let’s not forget the website “conveniently for the Republicans ” crashed multiple times when it opened. That ,combined with all the misinformation distributed, made enrollment lower than it could be.

One of the reasons your insurance went up for your employees is that they had better coverage. Obama care wasn’t aimed at you,it was aimed at making Americans healthier. I’m sorry your greed is your primary reason for your decision making.

In addition, when you brag about your money making at the expense of so many, it makes you sound like a complete jerk.

Congratulations. Your posts over the past month have suggested you are a greedy,selfish , racist.

Again. Just going by your words, not mine…

@Cruiser the laws that the ACA brought to the table just revamped existing insurance. It didn’t control their rates or anything.
In order for EVERYONE to have affordable insurance we’d have to go to a single payer system like they have in Canada. I know that’s what Obama was hoping for, in the end.
Also, your starving artist brother obviously lives in a Democratic state that choose to expand medicare. That was the biggest boon of all. Those of us who lived in Republican controlled states lost out on that.

^I didn’t lose out. But I had to jump through more hoops.

Correct though. Republican states blocked what they could.
Anything Obama touched,they wanted nothing to do with. Regardless of what advantages it gives their citizens that they are supposed to be taking care of.

In a way I’m glad Obama’s leaving. Now when the Republicans start pointing fingers,they’ll have to point them at each other.

I figure that’s why so many Republicans opposed Trump. It’s win win for them. If they can shove their greedy ,self serving agendas through WIN for them. If /when Trump fucks up, they can always say they weren’t with him WIN for them.

Then,4 years from now a Democrat will be elected,and have to spend the majority of their time cleaning up the Republican mess. Which of course the Republicans will take NO accountability for.

@Dutchess_III I am more than well aware as to the mechanics of the ACA and what was required to seemingly make it work. Go to any Hollywood set and you see the same gorgeous store front and nothing but 2×4’s behind it. It has been repeated ad nauseum for the ACA to work they needed healthy young people to sign up and pay into the ACA….the very demographic that can one ill afford health insurance and the one demographic doesn’t really need anything more than cheap catastrophic health coverage. I know! I was once young and healthy. So the majority of new enrollees are sick aged people with pre-existing conditions that is/has signed up for Medicaid coverage and quickly bankrupted the ACA. No wonder Pilosi screamed pass the damn bill we will read it later!! We were hosed, hoodwinked and rammed a lousy bill probably the worst I have seen in my adult life and this was supposed to be Obama’s signature legislation. No wonder they are throwing up a smoke screen over it so Obama can quietly leave out the back door in hopes no one really notices how dysfunctional his legislation is. No hiding from this hot mess.

@josie The duty of the opposition is to oppose
I guess that is one of the truer statements by far I have read in all this rhetoric. Some people will oppose anything they do not agree with or did not come up with no matter how well it turned out to be.

@ragingloli So basically, he would have to do the complete opposite of what his promises and staff picks indicate he wants to do.
If he is a failure in general but a success to you, then you can find yourself way to say he was good, but if he did good for the nation short of being a sock puppet to those who think along the lines you do, he will never get his props, that is a shocker ~~

@Cruiser Silly question…of course they will! Unless he provides free Pabst for all Americans he will be judged an abject failure.
Even though we don’t always agree, one of the things I respect you for is that you usually call many things from a voice of reason. I believe even if he upped everyone’s income, created millions of jobs while keeping 10s of thousands of jobs state side. And insured 98% of the populace by ACA or something like it, but more robust, and had a successful manned mission to Mars many democrats would still not give him one iota of acknowledgement. The rhetoric of this thread shows me no one would humble themselves to admit any good he may or will do, sad….
.
@ARE_you_kidding_me Trump is not like Hitler, Obama was not the antichrist, Bush jr was not a warmongering oil profiteer.
That is true but you can never get some to believe it. Obama is not and was not a Muslim, he did not support terrorism, and the Party of Twiddle Dumb (Republicans) said a lot of junk that were lies. In their defense when Obama won the GOP did not go out and riot.

@Hypocrisy_Central Until Trump is sworn in…the Pabst is on me…

@Hypocrisy_Central . Why would people have rioted when Obama won?

The current GOP made sure everyone wasn’t included in the ACA ( you can opt out if your are healthy was added by GOP ).

Oh well you are right @Cruiser because anything ANYONE says “in not valid” by you and your opinion. Enjoy your FOUR years.

@Tropical_Willie I was not aware that healthy 27 year olds were allowed to opt out of Obama care with no fine or fee… I would respectfully would appreciate your elucidation of this dynamic that has eluded me for over 4 years now and how this was a creature of the GOP who did not support even one vote for the ACA.

^The ACA ,or the idea, was originally a republican one. Obama breathed new life into it after it was shelved. And obviously made changes.

The concept though,is indeed born from the right…

@MrGrimm888 I appreciate your passion for the ACA…but can you present to me one Republican on record that voted for the ACA?

I’m unaware of the voting statistics. Probably few if any. That’s the point.

The Republicans hate the idea when proposed by Obama. But it is their creation. McConnell and Co. just hate it because they hate Obama. If Obama handed Mitch the cure for cancer he’d throw it away. He wouldn’t care how many people were positively affected.

Let me clarify that I’m not saying the dems have never been involved in partisan politics.

@Hypocrisy_Central
Listen Holzkopf, the items I listed ARE the criteria he would have to fulfull to be judged “good for the nation”.

” .....and quickly bankrupted the ACA. ” @Cruiser….you can’t bankrupt a set of laws. The ACA isn’t funding anything.

“The Affordable Care Act received 39 votes against it in the Senate, all from Republicans. One senator abstained from voting. In the House, there were 212 votes against it, with 34 coming from the Democratic Party and 178 from the Republican Party, according to govtrack.us….Arlen Specter, originally a Republican senator from Pennsylvania, switched to the Democratic Party to support the bill,...”
Guess you would be kicked out of the party if you voted for it.

^Correct. They voted as a party. Not as individuals weighing pros and cons for the people… How patriotic…..

@ragingloli Listen Holzkopf, the items I listed ARE the criteria he would have to fulfull to be judged “good for the nation”.
For those who concur one might be able to place them in a bucket. What is good for the nation to some others might look very different from what you think, and thank heavens your’s do not rule the roost and there are many other avenues one can chose from.