What is wrong with trying to develop Russia as an ally?

It is much smarter to use diplomats to keep us out of war in the Middle East instead of becoming close to a country that destabilizes its neighbors and illegally annexes their land (Ukraine). I also don’t like trying to ally myself with a despot who jails an all girl band for singing a song I disliked (Pussy Riot).

Signing out of this question now. Aloha.

Russia has been our ally before. We got dumped on, and people still feel reluctant to try again.
It could go real real bad, but if it goes well, the results have tremendous potential.
We would have to overlook political differences. Americans will never see eye to eye with Vladdy. If Trump can work around the differences, Russia allied with is could devistate a radical enemy, but also an alliance could work toward a future loaded with promise.
I would like to see it happen.

@Hawaii_Jake
Respectfully…
The US has allied itself with the lowest form of life on Earth, for example,the Saudis, who persecute Christians, stone to death women who have sex out of wedlock, and grant huge amounts of money to radical Islamist schools.
It is not as if the US is to be judged by by the moral quality of their allies. The US has betrayed itself many times in that regard.
But in in some ME countries, your girl band would have had their heads cut off, without due process.
Sometimes, it is a matter of degree. It is pretty tough when civilization is at the edge of collapse.
In those cases, the Good must make a compromise and hope they can win in the end.

If I could have been done, Obama would have done it. He knows better than we do.

First, because the situation is not that simple. Above all, it’s not like we have nations with leaders and governments that make decisions based only on national interests. That’s the pretense, but corporations and the ultra-rich&powerful pull the strings of the USA. I’m less aware of who pulls Putin’s strings but the real answer is not going to be simple and nation-centric. That kind of invalidates the whole frame of thinking of these sorts of questions unless we’re pretending that’s the way the world works for entertainment purposes.

Second, even if it were, Putin’s Russia doesn’t seem like a nation that USA could reasonable propose to ally with and trust. Germany and the EU and many other nations have valid concerns of different degrees about Russia’s designs on them, and value the USA as a somewhat vigilant and certainly formidable check to Russia messing with them much more than they currently do. Not to mention the regions Russia has been pretty overtly messing with.

Hopefully we’re not really going to see Trump make a foolish attempt to ally with Russia that could lead to who knows what eventual outcome. Putin seems ridiculously more savvy and aware politically than Trump, and not someone I would tend to trust or want to have a relationship with.

I absolutely do judge my country by the moral quality of its allies.

^Yep

If you can not figure that out by yourself, consult a psychiatrist.
I know that I would pick the French any day of the week, because they are ethically and morally aligned with myself, will not commit the atrocities that a repressive quasi dictatorship like Russia would and then force me to ignore the war crimes to “preserve the alliance”, and will not stab me in the back after our “mutual enemy” is destroyed.

See, I blame Sting & that mean spirited song of his…

“I hope the Russians love their children too”

Daft geordie bugger opened a right can of worms with that incendiary shite & for what?
A few quid & a crap black & white video on top of the pops…selfish bastard.

Sometimes countries become allies against a common foe even when those countries aren’t very fond of each other. It’s probably better to have some diplomatic relations with Russia and keep the door open for helping each other. At the same time, Russia has done some fucked up shit in the recent past.

I’d say it’s complicated, which is true for most geo political situations.

I don’t want America to be allied with Russia per se, but we certainly do business with, and have relationships with, countries that I would love to drop.

If it were just Russia and the United States—no other countries involved—it might work. But each country has its own allies and foes, and each of those countries has its own, and on and on and on. The world is far more complicated than Trump can possibly know or probably care to know, and given his lack of world-stage political and diplomatic knowledge or experience and the fact that he says he doesn’t trust the CIA and FBI and other security agencies and that he doesn’t need daily briefings… well… aligning himself to a a puppet master like Putin even before he’s officially in office is foolhardy and dangerous.

As the world – one hopes! – grows more generally capitalistic and market-oriented as time goes on we will probably develop a more “friendly rivalry” with Russia, similar to what we have done with China, and with Europe and Japan and Korea. That is, we can be friendly with all nations who act in generally good will toward their own citizens and their neighbors, compete with them fairly but energetically on economic and market grounds, and trade with them freely on terms that both parties find to be acceptable. That is, in general, the essence of what liberty and freedom means. It doesn’t mean that you have to agree with everything that others do, but you tolerate what is tolerable – and they do the same for you.

Which is not to say that individuals in any government – being human and fallible, and members of even more fallible groups and governments – won’t do things that cause us heartburn and protest, but we don’t have to fight everyone that we disagree with. And we haven’t even had a proxy war with the Soviets Russians in a generation now. Why should we?

Admittedly Putin is a “strongman” leader of a less-than-free country, with a background that would shame the devil. But Obama, for all that his closed-eyed worshippers dote on him, is every bit the narcissist that Trump’s detractors (probably rightly) call out him for being. And let’s not forget before we climb on our high horses and ride off into the sunset that our own political leadership (Obama and Clinton) conspired to jail a whipping boy of their own, the producer of a two-bit YouTube video that was claimed to be the basis of the terrorist attack on the American embassy in Benghazi. So it’s not like we can tut-tut at the mote in Putin’s eye while we ignore the log in our own.

Having relations with Russia would at it’s worst expose the “man” behind the curtain to be our worst nightmare…corrupt evil corporations that have wantonly exploited our deepest fears for nothing more than corrupt corporate profits. Just show me one picture of Putin where he is not smirking or grinning ear to ear in presence of our leaders. If you really think Syria is simply a humanitarian effort by Russia or USa then you are super gullible. I have said this now 6 dozen times here….follow the money.

At it’s best, Trump will pull back the curtain and make deals with Russia that will make sense for us and Russia. That is what making a real deal is all about. The world is ready for this and is also sick and tired of phony red lines in the sand. To quote Trump…“at this point what do you have to lose??”

Trying to improve relations with Russia can be good, as long as one is sufficiently and consistently wise and cautious about it. Trump doesn’t often strike me as consistent, wise or cautious.

Putin is an autocrat who dreams of extending Russia to the boundaries of the old Soviet Union. Trump’s intentions of pulling out of trade agreements and ignoring our NATO allies is a dream come true for Putin.

Getting closer with Russia is not a bad thing. I don’t love Putin, but I don’t think we need to be adversaries. There’s really only one leader in this world that’s scary enough to possibly ever warrant going to war to remove, and that’s North Korea’s Kim Jung Un. I think Putin could be helpful in keeping that little fucker in check.

If Trump can somehow manage to Forrest Gump his way into bringing our countries closer together, then he might actually accomplish something worthwhile. I think Putin is smart enough to realize that Trump is a clown. I think he’s playing Trump to be honest, but at the end of the day, I’d rather have another ally instead of slipping back into the Cold War.

Obama did the right thing, as usual. He sent home Russian intelligence, and threw out more sanctions. Showing an obvious anger and distrust to Putin and the world. He also insinuated that other actions would be taken that would be covert. Obama normally isn’t that heavy handed, but he was clearly mad about the election hack. And he should be. All Americans should be.

If Trump gets all buddy buddy with Putin, it’s really going to add fuel to the “Russia elected him” fire burning in the media.

Putin is not to be trusted to do anything other than serve his own interests.

Yes. Russia wants a warm water port. When the ice caps melt,there will be many ice free ports. If their playing the long game,they need but wait for that.

There’s nothing wrong with talking to them, and trying to work together.

Trump hasn’t been such a good diplomat so far though. He’s got China plenty mad. They just sent their aircraft carrier and several battle ships into taiwanese waters. A clear message of defiance to Trump. And they warned him not to travel to Taiwan. (Which he probably will.)

Let Europe deal with Putin. If they’re afraid of him,then they need to start building a military that could repel him.

Same with China. Let southeast Asia deal with them. Russia may get involved there too. Fine.

And let China deal with North Korea.

As far as the middle east goes. We should be spending money getting off of oil. Not trying to stabilize a region that has historically never had sustained peace.

Once the ice caps melt, Russia will be a bigger threat to Canada than the US, geographically anyway. So Canada can build its military up too,and defend themselves if that’s necessary.

If America would just mind it’s own business, we’d have plenty of allies,less,terrorism, less money spent on war , better trade relations etc.

Putin is a bully. If you give a bully an inch, he will wipe the floor with you. Putin is KGB. Diplomacy isn’t his life blood. Manipulation is and a deep distrust or America. I still trust our intelligence community over a foreign government any day of the week. Even if our own government spies on it’s citizens. It would be nice to believe in this fantasy world where we would all get along. But he is an aggressor and ego maniac. Two personality traits that are difficult to deal with, much less be friends with or trust.
You can talk about diplomacy till the cows come home but one thing is certain. Grown old men don’t change. Putin can not be changed from snake to man’s best friend the dog.

We should try to establish good relations with Russia but develop them as an ally? It’s a bit difficult at the moment when Putin has tried to subvert the democratic process in America.

^Uh yeah…..

Worst of all would be the band.

What band?

Trump and Putin form a musical duo called “Grab ‘em by the Pussy Riot.”

I think I got an idea for a new thread…

@Pandora No one is a bigger bully than the USA.

Maybe after Trump comes into office, but as of now Russia has the edge

@LostInParadise That is about human rights issues IN Russia. Granted they are atrocious but IMO don’t hold a candle to our sanctions against Russia, Iran, N. Korea….yes they are big time bullies in themselves but for us to impose our will upon them makes us a bully as well and perhaps moreso. We assassinate foreign dictators and call it justice though our biggest bully calling card no other country can hold a candle to is Guantanamo and our rampant drone strikes. The US is the worlds biggest bully and we do it seemingly with pride and IMO it totally sucks and it should come as no surprise when a radicalized extremist shows up on our doorstep.

Internal bullying counts just as much as external. As for foreign bullying, Russia does pretty well with its limited budget, like supporting the atrocities in Syria and marching in on Crimea and placing troops along the borders of the Baltic states. If we go back through history, the Russians have done a considerable amount of imposing themselves on and conquering other countries.

@LostInParadise You are making my whole point. In the true sense of a bully is one that sits backs and does nothing while watching some innocent get their ass beat when they could have intervened such as stepping 3 steps back and letting Russia have it’s way in Crimea and Syria. Perhaps I am simply confused over what defines a bully or a coward these days. Bullies are cowards and again as of today, we the US are the biggest bully in the world.

Wow, @josie, you know what Putin is thinking? Why aren’t you in the State Department? You must be some kind of fucking genius, man!

Or batshit crazy.

Obama was not being a bully! He was being a president.

Trump’s response would have been to say, “Hey. I’ll give you a million dollars if you promise not to do it again.”

Ummm.. @Dutchess_III I know you will defend Obama to your grave and I truly respect that quality of you. But I am compelled to point out that Obama recently booted 35 Russian diplomats AND their entire families in the middle of a holiday season that had to pull up stakes and be run out of town. THAT is the definition of a bully. A Presidential move would have been more in line with what Putin did and take a pass on pulling a retaliatory asshat move such as Obama did. Obama as President had many other options at his disposal…but being the weeney he is he succumbed to the pressures of his base to be the bully and give Russia the what for over hacking the Government has yet and will never will give proof of.

Yep, he did. Putin is the one responsible for that.

That’s like saying, “I shop lifted and my dad grounded me so none of my friends can come over and that makes him a bully.” No. It makes me an asshole. Like Putin.

@Cruiser . Your kind has been bad mouthing Obama for being too soft. Now you’re mad that he stuck up for us against Russia?

No surprise.

That’s not being a bully. That’s taking out the trash…. He sent a strong message to Russia. Good for him. Fuck those 35 assholes and their families.

As usual, Obama can’t do anything the right won’t critisize.

@MrGrimm888 Strong message?? HS…that made me laugh almost as hard as Putin did! Obama is getting panned all around the world for his weak tit response to the alleged never to be proven Russian hacking. Please tell me why he waited till just now to respond to the alleged Russian hacking when he knew about it SIX MONTHS AGO!!?!! Seriously dude!

^I doubt Russia shares your opinion.

Let me guess. We should have nuked Russia?

Obama uses realistic tools.

I certainly don’t expect you to understand that.

@MrGrimm888 Obama should have just given Russia a 30 minute time out in the corner….but not 6 months after the fact. Seriously bad parenting.

@Cruiser, @Cruiser, @Cruiser, @Cruiser,

“But I am compelled to point out that Obama recently booted 35 Russian diplomats AND their entire families in the middle of a holiday season that had to pull up stakes and be run out of town. THAT is the definition of a bully. ”

Awwwwww. Poor widdo Wussians.

The mutherfuckers were kicked out of the country because our intel tracked their cyber spore right to the GRU agents that hacked our election. We booted them—and a lot nicer than I would have—out because they fucked with us in the most intimate way a country can—deep inside and at the core of our political system. Four of them were top officers with the GRU working out of the Wussian Embassy in DC.. The rest were either field agents with embassy staff cover working with them.

This doesn’t make Obama a bully in the least. It makes him a defender of Democracy at the very highest level

I’ll tell what a bully would do. He would have burned the mutherfuckers at the stake live on TV in front of the U.S. Capitol Building.

And guess what—you might have missed on your daily fix of shit like Morning Joe—- the Wussians admitted to the whole fucking operation.

Missions like that don’t go active without a GO from Putin.

So, hey, Cruiser, why don’t you pick up stakes and move over there if you like this fuck so much. You’ll like the winter in Moscow, it’s a lot longer and colder than Chicago, but you’ll be just fine. Better bring a seeing eye dog and a white cane. You’ll need it to maintain your affection for Putin. When you find out none the toilets work in Gorki Park, you can enjoy hearing your piss pop as it freezes before it hits the ground. You can probably even pick up Morning Joe on Moscow 4. LOL. Good luck on your Peace Mission.

I see you have started early @Espiritus_Corvus I am very happy where I am at thank you very little for your suggestion. If you want to really understand the true definition of a bully….re-read your reply to me. Happy New Year btw.

@Cruiser Right. I’m a bully because I won’t just hand Putin the soap, bend over and grab my heels, then thank him for it like you and Trump.and all his other psychophants.

Exactly @Espiritus_Corvus A bully will never admit they are one.

@Cruiser That is rich. For years Trump supporters had touted that President Obama was unpatriotic and would’ve hung him on the White House lawn if he did or said half of what Trump says and has done. This is just proof that it was never about his policy and always about the color of his skin. A Black man dared to be President.

They called Obama Care a socialist program and deemed him a socialist, but hey, we should actually listen to Socialist / Communist Russia
.
We don’t need to listen to our own Intel because Russia’s Intel and Putin couldn’t possibly have an agenda but our Intel men and women are not to be trusted.

Muslims in America should be held in camps just because they are Muslims, but boo-hoo for the spying Russians who were kicked out. (oh, I forgot. They don’t need to trust our Intel. Especially after Trump said they aren’t Trustworthy)
President Obama keeps involving us in nations that have nothing to do with us. He is killing our Soldiers in wars that have nothing to do with us.

We don’t want our military overseas in these countries. It cost the taxpayer too much. But hey, why did we pull out. They weren’t ready to be let to rule themselves. Again Presidents fault.

But hooray for President Elect Trump who wants to build a huge army and build our nuclear capabilities, even though we have enough to blow the world over a few hundred times. And thinks it’s okay for Russia to do so also. The world doesn’t have enough nuclear bombs. ( I wonder what he could possibly want with a bigger army?)

President saves wall street and has restrictions on them and we have actually made back that money and more. But what a scum to use our tax money in a productive way and keep our banks from going belly up further tanking our economy. President Obama is in bed with Wall Street. He should’ve let the banks go belly up. But Trump moves in all his rich Wall Street Friends and gives them a huge tax break, but hey the little guy won’t be paying for it. Trump says we will be able to have 2 to 3 jobs each. Now, who wants 2 to 3 jobs. Oh, I know. People barely making it on minimum pay.

Just take everything Trump has said or done and have President Obama say it. He would be on Trial for Treason by now. The Republicans would’ve seen to it by now.
But know this. I am an American First and Last. I do not always agree with my government but I don’t have too because it is my right to have different opinions. But I am loyal only to my country. If I didn’t believe in America, I wouldn’t be here.

I do not, nor ever will want to live in a Communist country and I believe Trump will lead us there. First step is to normalize Communism. Make them seem friendly. Make Americans believe it is ok. Especially since they did help him get elected. That was probably what Ivanka was doing on her vacation Trip with Putin’s girlfriend. (Nothing to see here folks.)

Second, destroy our intel community reputation along with the Media. (Eradicating freedom of the Press). Make all politicians appear crooked. (At least the ones who dare question my ruling.)

Get support from the rich. Give them huge tax breaks and invite them into the fold.

Build our military.

Break ranks with nations that will question my rules.

Trump isn’t looking for a Presidency. He’s planning a coup for his dictatorship.

Putin doesn’t want the United States as an ally, he wants to undermine our standing in the world. He doesn’t want to be friends, he wants us to stay the fuck out of his way.

And I do love that the same folks who have, for years, been crying about us being too soft on Russia are now lining up to suck Russian cock.

^Well said sir…

@Pandora…I understand your passion, have had to put up with it for 8 years now. Give me your address and I can see that Amazon prime gets you some nice new luggage in 2 days so you can be long gone before the inauguration.

^Well. You just lost a return customer.

@Cruiser, I’m sure your comrades would love that. So is Cruiser your Russian Code name? I’m sure you and your comrades were frustrated. Especially your KKK comrades. How awful it must’ve been to see a Black man ruling your ideal all white nation. To bad you didn’t pack up and go back to Russia.

@Pandora No matter how much Obama and the Libs taxed and regulated me I still had it better than anywhere else…that is how smart people operate. Now it is your choice to decide if you can survive under the oppressive rule of the orange one.

She could also try to become the Colonies’ Stauffenberg.

@Cruiser, I paid taxes too. Don’t see me crying about it. Roads, sanitation, our infrustructure our military, our security, our police, our hospitals, or elderly living an a measly SS, our nuclear plants, our well almost a ton of dam things, rely on our taxes. You think it comes out of thin air. I assume you must be the 1 percent to be crying so hard. Well never fear. Trump will make sure the middle class will pay your portion now. Because having 20 cars is more important for you than the people who just need the one to get to work. Btw, the rich is paying way lower than it has in the past. Back then, they saw it as their patriotic duty and didn’t whine so much about it. http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates

^You’re ruining @Cruiser‘s illusion. He’s not a 1%er. He has their greed though… And is similarly unapologetic about his backward views .

I have lost some respect for some people after this election.

To think someone would be proud that they helped arm the war against the middle class and poor…. Did these people have mothers?...

Ooh, this is good…

@MrGrimm888 You are so right…I am not a 1%‘r…I am a .5%‘r…in the future please get your facts straight. You are the sole person on this site I could give a rat’s ass about their opinion of me. Keep waving your hands over me if that makes yourself feel better.

@Pandora As much as I agree the Republican Party has a shitload of incredibly hypocritical people, I don’t believe that everyone who hates everything Obama says and does is racist. Those people hate white Democrats too. Calling them racist is not helpful. Sure there are some people who are racist, and hate having a black president, but I think that is a very small number. Many republicans really liked Colin Powell and Condeleeza Rice. It’s about politics usually, not skin color. In my opinion.

@JLeslie

It may not be racism per se, but there’s definitely a strong current of xenophobia underlying that extreme aversion to Barack Obama and everything he says, does and proposes (even if had been something the Republicans had always supported before, as “Obamacare” was). Colin Powell and Condi Rice may be black, but they’re blacks with typical black American background and nice white names. I’d almost guarantee you the reaction against him wouldn’t have been as strong if his background hadn’t be “exotic” (for want of a better term) and had his name been, say, Barry Dunham (a nice white name). There’s simply no other explanation for it. No rational person could hate everything he does and says.

@Darth_Algar Because there are so many white girls in America named Condeleezza? My experience is most white people behind closed doors don’t mind “exotic” names at all, they make fun of “black names.” Lashanda, Shanaynay, and names spelled far from their original spelling that isn’t cutesy, but rather looks like the mom just didn’t know how to spell it in its original form.

I don’t disagree that there is some xenophobia in the country, but as far as that goes Obama is as “white” culturally as Powell and Rice. He speaks with a middle of the road accent, has a degree from Harvard, dresses well, and has the standard wife and two children.

I just watched my DVR taping of Farred Zakaria from this morning, and Fareed happened to ask Obama a question along these very lines. He answered basically the same as the spirit of my answer. There are some fringe people who have a race issue with him, but there were some black people who probably favored him for his race also. His words paraphrased.

@JLeslie I never said that all Republicans are racists. Some actually voted for President Obama. Many even secretly like him. But the ones who hate him the most for every little thing are probably the most racist of all. I mean the amount of things that he has been blamed for is beyond ridiculous. Just think of the people who follow Ann Coulter. Can’t say they aren’t racist among a list of different things. Racism is alive and well, in both parties.

@JLeslie

The name Condoleezza is Italian in origin. Just because it isn’t a popular name doesn’t mean it isn’t white.

And really, if you don’t think Barack Obama’s name doesn’t have something to do with the aversion to him then you haven’t been paying attention these past eight years.

@Pandora I disagree. I think even a large portion of those who hate everything Obama does, also hate everything Clinton did (both Clintons) and Pelosi, and go ahead and name any other prominent democrat in the last 20 years, and they also think Reagan and Bush walked on water.

But, we can just disagree.

I completely accept you didn’t mean all republicans. I don’t doubt that.

@Darth_Algar I know it’s Italian in origin. I said American white girls. Plus, I don’t even think/know if it’s a “name” in Italy, I know it’s derived from Italian.

Do you think most of WASP America would look at a man named Gianni Cioffi as an “American name?”

Edit: Not to mention some people think it’s odd when blacks use Hispanic and even Italian names.

Wow. And I thought “Zoey” was a crazy name for my (mostly white) granddaughter. But it fits her like a glove.

Lots of white girls named Zoey.

There is so much racism in this thread it isn’t even funny.

@JLeslie

How is it humanly possible to miss the point that badly?

Not sure if you’re talking to me @seek, but I didn’t think “Zoey” was a crazy name because I thought it was a black name. I just thought it was a crazy name, period. But, as I said, it fits that kid perfectly

@Cruiser . I take your disdain as a compliment. Thanks.

I thought you were too greedy to “give a rat’s ass.”.... You’re becoming a socialist now….

I don’t think anyone on this Q is racist. I said what I hear behind closed doors, and what is fact when researchers study how employers look at names on a resume, also when studies are done on trends in baby naming.

For instance, my real name used to rarely be given to African Americans in America, but now it often is. So what? I don’t care. I hadn’t even thought about it regarding my name until I saw a show a couple of years ago about names, even though I was aware of black women who have my name. To me it was just another person with my name, and I know dozens.

My only point was I think most of America doesn’t really care, black, white, or purple. They don’t care what your name is. They care about who you are, your soul, your integrity, and for politicians, American citizens care if they agree with the politician and what he wants to do for their locale or for America.

If I saw the name Barack Obama I would have no idea what race, religion, or color he was. The name doesn’t “mean” anything to me. If I saw his middle name and you forced me to guess, I would think white Arab descent.

Condeleezza? I would have no guess also. No assumption about race or or nationality.

Zoey? No assumption either.

@Darth_Algar “they’re blacks with typical black American background ” How out of touch can you possibly prove yourself to be more so than with this statement! WOW! The nerve of the left to call Trump a Nazi and racist with rhetoric like yours.

You keep shifting the goalposts. The point wasn’t about what most white Americans think, the point was about what the kind of folks who hate every single thing Barack Obama says and does think. Unless you’re implying that that’s most white Americans. And as I said above, my point wasn’t about popularity or how many WASP girls have a name. It was about the fact that both Condi Rice and Colin Powell have white names. Barack Obama doesn’t.

However uncommon it may be Condoleezza is, nevertheless, a name that is identifiably of European (ie: white) origin. No, not a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, but still white. (More specifically Condi was named after an Italian musical term, her mother was a music teacher.) Colin Powell is an identifiably white name. Barack Hussein Obama is identifiably not a white name. You’re kidding yourself if you think this did not factor into the distrust/dislike some folks have of him. It’s not necessarily a matter of what race the people who bear those names may be, it’s a matter of the names themselves (and thus, most likely the people bearing them, whatever their skin color) being of a cultural background that folks understand and identify with. It’s a sort of gut, almost tribal, reaction.

@Cruiser

Condi Rice family is of southern, pre-emancipation background. Colin Powell’s parents immigrated from the Caribbean, specifically Jamaica (a former British territory and still a Commonwealth nation). Those two backgrounds (southern and Caribbean, descended from slaves) are the most common among blacks in this country.

@Darth_Algar I really respect your POV here…you often shed insight that is clouded in my skull. And I am extending my POV gently to you that there is no F’n way you can possibly know what I or any other “folk” who takes exception to your Icon Obama thinks or really feels about him. We all have our axes to grind and they are specific to what is important to each of us. Please please please stop generalizing with your prejudices that you have no possible way to connect my life, their life to your fantastic fallacies about how you perceive anyone’s life to be other than your own.

@Cruiser

Did I claim to know what you take exception to in Obama? Nope, I did not. But I’ve also not seen you mock or criticize his origins, nor question his validity as an American citizen. Or make wild claims that he’s a member of the Muslim Brotherhood intent on destroying America because he happens to have been born with a Muslim name. As far as I can tell your objections with him have been firmly rooted in policy. That’s valid. I may not agree with those objections, but they’re valid objections.

All good @Darth_Algar Happy New year sir.

To @Darth_Algar‘s point. I’ve seen several studies that show employers are less likely to hire people with “black” names. Weather it’s conscious, or subconscious a man named Jadavious Washington has less of a chance of being interviewed than Brian Washington (for example) even when qualifications are identical on their applications.

I’m not putting words in @Darth_Algar‘s mouth. But I believe that is what he’s talking about. And it’s an interesting point. It didn’t seem to affect his being elected twice, though,as voters in booths saw Obama’s name,and hit the button. But the studies were about perception of an unknown person. Not a popular candidate that all knew…

^^Obama wasn’t just a name. When the people went to vote they knew which candidate was Obama. Barack also isn’t a black name in my opinion. If @Darth wants to call it exotic, then I say again Condeleezza is exotic too in my opinion. Would you agree? Colin Powell might not have a black name, but he is black.

@MrGrimm888 Valid point. Obama defied the odds not only because of the times where we were knee deep in with our battle with Osama Bin Laden…yes Barack was black but America was desperate for change and aligned with that man and cast their vote with hope for change that I will argue transcended perception of an unknown person. Trump was just elected for similar emotions behind voters reasons for their votes.

^Yeah. People are sick of the status quo. I get it…

I don’t get it. I didn’t see Obama as change. I never understood it.

^You’ve expressed your preference for Hillary. Others really thought Obama could bring change. And he did.

America was developing a patern of going to war every so often. That’s far too often. Obama is called feckless by the war mongers, and he bent plenty, but didn’t break. No major wars in 8 years is (sadly) a great accomplishment. He did other things too,and would have done more , but too often was hamstrung by congress.

The Republicans REALLY hate Obama. I have to wonder if Hillary had been president instead of Obama, would congress have worked with her a little more. Their hatred for Obama really cost the country…

Pattern for going to war? What are you talking about @MrGrimm888? Anything remotely resembling a war machine was silent since 1975. 9/11 is what stirred the pot and it was now we know BS weapons of mass destruction that got us back into the war business. I hate to be repetitive, but follow the money.

Well, Hillary had changes she wanted to make too. We were coming off if the Bush years. She wanted to head up socialized medicine for the last 20 years. She was basically the international front man for Obama in his first term. She was in the white house when our national deficit was under control. I don’t see why Obama is more change than her. I never did. It’s not a matter of me liking her more, I think I can be fairly objective usually. I guess a lot of people feel like he got some things done that the Clintons’ couldn’t or didn’t, but the Clintons’ had started some of those things on a path.

@Cruiser . Do you not recall the multiple bombings, and conflicts between 1975 and 9/11? And there was this little thing Called the first Iraq war…In the 90’s…

If you’re ‘follow the money’ concept is valid (which I believe it is) then why in blue hell would you have voted for Trump?...

@JLeslie. I didn’t mean to insinuate that you aren’t objective. You just like Hillary more,and that’s fine.

The fact that she was married to Bill when the deficit was under control has little relevance. But she was a decent person whilst holding several roles…

@MrGrimm888 I have said clearly as I can a thousand times over….I voted for Trump because he is not a miserable, corrupt, lying, wearing fugly pants suits, wife of a career criminal abuser of women.

LOL. So you’d rather vote for a guy who goes to bed with the Russians.

^^ @Espiritus_Corvus I value that you are smarter than that.

Pants suit? WTF is wrong with wearing a pant suit? I for the rest of my life will resent any man annoyed that a woman with larger thighs, but a reasonable weight for her age and size, is criticized for wearing a pant suit. @Cruiser, seriously, you have got to stop that. If you don’t like her fashion sense that’s fine, but don’t be critical of her wearing slacks. When you have to deal with putting on pantyhose or having your bare thighs rub all day, then let me know. Until then you are spitting in the wind. Maybe cursing your wife (God forbid).

Even just getting in and out if a car while on the campaign trail, having to worry about a tailored professional looking skirt is a pain in the neck. Maybe wearing pants is more practical. You know, like how the men do. They wear pants.

@Cruiser
”.I voted for Trump because he is not a miserable, corrupt, lying, wearing fugly pants suits, wife of a career criminal abuser of women.”
Except of course he is all those things, except for the pants suit thing.

One correction. Trump is not the wife of a criminal abuser of women. He is a criminal abuser of women.

@ragingloli Trump absolutely wears pants suits.

Yes 9/11 did stir the pot, allowing or justifying once again the use of war as a tool for diplomacy and economic development. I still question who actually stirred that pot.

@Espiritus_Corvus If Trump is in bed with the Russians you can bet it is for monetary gain. And if that is the case doesn’t that make him simply a prostitute?

How about that, all this time I thought he was Putin’s Bitch but actually he was just a kak tzap whore.

What you’re saying is true, but he is willing to sell us down the tubes for personal monetary gain. That makes him much more than a common whore.

@Cruiser reminds me of the honest dry cleaning operator in Vegas. He was approached by a bunch of guys who didn’t seem right to him, but all they wanted was to sell him a little advertising at bargain rates, they would throw in ten thousand matchbooks with his name on it gratis if he signed an advertising media contract. They said all they wanted to do was build an advertising business in a place where the competition was tough. The dry cleaner had to know they were connected, but justified doing business with them because what they offered was completely legal.

Two years later the guy was on the street, the wise guys owned his business, and he is probably still wondering what the fuck happened.

That’s what any deals with Putin will lead to. The man and his organization are apex predators. The rest of the world knows it, why are there people in the US that don’t know it? Probably because of a domestic news media that rather than reporting on what has been going on in the world for the 18 monts has instead broadcast Trump TV 24/7.

@MrGrimm888

Well that’s not specifically what I was talking about, but it’s not an entirely different track ether. But yeah, there really is a certain subset of folks who will absolutely react with anger, hatred and loathing at anything that falls outside of their cultural norms. That Obama’s name did not keep him from winning the presidency twice is proof that America, on the whole, is growing more diverse and that fact also drives these particular folks nuts. It’s not necessarily racism, but it is xenophobia.

@JLeslie

Except Condoleezza isn’t “exotic”. And I did say I was using that word for want of a better term. I should have used a different term. In retrospect I think “alien” would have been the better term to go with.

An Italian word/name is absolutely not alien to anyone of European cultural descent. The culture of Italy (not just modern Italy, but all the cultures of the Italian peninsula going back to antiquity) have been so influential, so ingrained into European culture at large that it is all but impossible to even fathom the western world without it. From Rome to the Renaissance, Italy is the heart and soul of Europe.

@Cruiser “I voted for Trump because he is not a miserable, corrupt, lying, wearing fugly pants suits, wife of a career criminal abuser of women.”

And whatever respect I had for you just plummeted through the floor and into the ground. Kudos for revealing your true colors though.

@Espiritus_Corvus Can you point to any “deal or no deal” with Russia we have had that has yielded equitable results for the US or Russia for that matter. If Trump makes any deal with Russia I expect both our countries will benefit…called a “win win”. Russian has been having it’s way relatively unchecked by our current administration largely because of late for the early show responses like booting 35 diplomats 6 months after the infraction occurred. Swift and decisive are not words I would associate with Obama and Kerry.

@Darth_Algar My life will go on just swimmingly without your approval for anything I think or feel

@Darth_Algar To me they are the same, and I’m very familiar with Italian names. I have a girlfriend whose maiden last name was Viviano, such a pretty name, and she said people spelled it wrong all the time. I don’t even see how that’s possible. It is spelled exactly how it’s pronounced.

Maybe the majority of America didn’t think Condeleezza was an unusual name? Could be. I didn’t really think about her name the first time I heard it, but I didn’t think about Barack Obama either. My prejudice would have shown if it was someone named L’Shay or Shaniqua, or Laquisha. I would presume those are American black women. I don’t mean I would be racist, I’d just stereotype they are black, knowing I could be wrong. When I hear Carlos I assume Hispanic or Spanish, but I’ve been wrong. The assumption doesn’t mean anything, cause I really don’t care in the end. People are perplexed my husband is Hispanic, because his name is Sephardic. It doesn’t mean anything in the end. It makes things interesting.

@JLeslie

It also might be worth noting the Condoleezza Rice never ran for president ether. Her role in government was an appointed one, not an elected one.

And you still seem to be missing the point, which, as I’ve explained, isn’t about race necessarily, but about culture.

There are plenty of deals we’ve had in the past with both the Soviet Union and Russia. The first that comes to mind is Florida phosphate. For over 75 years, Florida’s number one buyer of Florida’s number one export product has been first the USSR, then Russia. The deal has been significantly beneficial to both parties. But, Cruiser, I won’t argue with a drunk, especially a drunk who doesn’t have any knowlege of US—Russian history.

@Espiritus_Corvus Neither will I anymore FYI 3.2 years sober asshole

You sure as hell haven’t sounded like it for the past few days.

@Espiritus_Corvus If you want to hear the truth about anything…talk to a drunk….trust me on this one

sure, starting with “Ah can still driv prfectlurgh..”

@ragingloli Give me your car keys

Spoken like a true drunk, Cruiser. Where did you get from, some AA pity-party? The rest of the world says that If you want to hear meaningless bullshit, you talk to a drunk.

Now you’ve stooped too low, people.

@Espiritus_Corvus I am grateful for the filter I now have as my answers to you 4 years ago would be colorfully much different.

@Cruiser . Out of curiosity. Has there ever been a Democrat you didn’t hate? Sounds like you hate Hillary too. You must have hated Bill.

And you failed to comment on your omission of the first Iraq war, and multiple bombings, conflicts between 75 and 9/11….

America is considered a medlesom war monger by the majority of the world. Wouldn’t you like that to change?

Just because we can blow people up,doesn’t mean we should.

Obama used drone attacks and special ops. He wasn’t leveling cities,and countries.

I won’t even comment on your pantsuit phobia….

@MrGrimm888…voted for Billary…at the time I felt he was the right man at the right time. The ability to impeach a President allows me to sleep at night.

Well. He was wasn’t he? He oversaw the most prosperous time in human history. (Wish I remember where I read that.)

My family voted for George H. Bush. But they have since turned pretty much all Democrat…

The parties have changed over the years.

The ability to impeach a president is pretty much meaningless.

@Darth_Algar Tell that to Andrew Johnson, Richard M. Nixon, and Billary and ask them how meaningless impeachment proceedings had on their lives.

IMO. Too many people see impeachment of a president as an embarrassing failure of our government. It’s the exact opposite. Impeachment is our government functioning properly.

The people have the right to say “this person ,turns out, should be fired.”

It would be pretty crazy if the only job in America that you couldn’t be fired from was the most important one…

@Cruiser

What meaningful impact did impeachment have on Clinton? Perhaps you live in some alternate universe, but in the one I live in he still served his full two terms.

Oh, and Johnson was impeached by the House, acquitted by the Senate and served a full term. And Nixon was never impeached (unless, again, you’re living in an alternate universe).

@MrGrimm888

That’s not what impeachment is, and the people have nothing to do with it.

^The people elect the people who do the impeaching….

The Clinton one was definitely a waste of money.

The Gulf War started in 1990.

@Cruiser You don’t sound like you at all. ”“I voted for Trump because he is not a miserable, corrupt, lying, wearing fugly pants suits, wife of a career criminal abuser of women.”” Are you saying it’s better to be the actual criminal abuser of women, than to be the one married to one? I just grab ‘em by the pussy. Do you think that’s cool, or something?

He doesn’t lie?
“Donald Trump says he “won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally.”

”“The @nytimes states today that DJT believes ‘more countries should acquire nuclear weapons.’ How dishonest are they. I never said this!” Yes, he did.

”“The @nytimes sent a letter to their subscribers apologizing for their BAD coverage of me.” No, they didn’t.

“Says that at a campaign rally President Barack Obama “spent so much time screaming at a protester, and frankly it was a disgrace.” ”

“Twitter, Google and Facebook are burying the FBI criminal investigation of Clinton. Very dishonest media!”

And I could go on for PAGES.

And I have never heard you degenerate woman for no other fact than they are a woman before. What the hell has gotten in to you?

^True colors shining through?...

Many Americans have exposed themselves for who they really are recently. @Cruiser is just another…

Be careful though, they don’t like being called on it…

I don’t think those are his true colors. He’s never been anything but respectful before. I don’t know what’s going on.

I agree. But lately things have changed. It’s the same with lots of people who I used to respect.

Well. I still respect @Cruiser . Not that he cares…