What if there was a Million Man March for men’s equality, how well would the populace view that?

If you could find enough silly men to participate in such an event, they would probably be laughed off the streets through sheer embarrassment.

Decent men already have equal rights in those spheres.

Men that feel that women have more rights need to quit thinking that they lose out on equal rights,

Equal rights for others does not mean less rights for you. It’s not pie.

Is that kind of like a march for white equality?

There was a Million Man March some years ago. I hope everyone – black, white, men and women will take to the streets to stop Fascism.

Since men already have greater privileges, an equal rights march would mean forfeiting privileges. I don’t think there would be many participants.

…There was a Million Man March some years ago. I hope everyone – black, white, men and women will take to the streets to stop Fascism….

ACTUALLY, the Million Man March is a Black Muslim event. They may have said they were protesting Fascism, but it was against Jews

End to the same means as the woman’s march last week, considering Keith Ellison and Louis Farrakhan are chairpersons in both the Black Muslim movement and the Democratic National Convention

Dumb idea. But who am I to prevent someone from doing this, if it makes them feel good.

This is sort of like the “White Lives Matter” movement… rather superfluous.

I am wondering, in the women’s fight for equality, when it came acceptable for women to completely emasculate men.
In movies, on tv shows, social media, I see women saying crap like “That’s a man for you, losers.”
I am not being a hypocrite here. It is my guilty conscience which prompts me to speak. I have done lots of it.
Where does yearning for equality give us the right to trample anyone?
I feel guilty, and I hope ro change that right away.

Sorry, I said Black Muslim. Maybe I’m about to be lambasted as a racist!

The Million Man March is a rally against Jews by the Nation of Islam, and the event is chaired by DNC’s own Keith Ellison and Louis Farrakhan.

In spite of media coverage, the event never filled the National Mall in Washington, D.C. but only about 1/5th the area. I suspect now that Trump is president, the movement will grow exponentially.

Men are discriminated against all the time. It’s just taboo to talk about. Everyone is to one degree or another. I would say that a young, attractive, healthy, white, extroverted female is about the least discriminated against and have more advantages than basically anyone yet there are plenty of things not in their favor. Everyone seems to want to have their special club and this is the very thing that keeps us apart. You, yes YOU the person marching for whatever are part of the problem. You divide us, you have hate, you need something or someone to vent your anger to. IMVSO people need to fucking stop all of this “privilege” comparison nonsense and just get on with living.

@ARE_you_kidding_me “I would say that a young, attractive, healthy, white, extroverted female is about the least discriminated against and have more advantages than basically anyone”

have you ever tried to obtain an abortion?

have you ever had someone tell you that you shouldn’t pursue your interests because you’re a girl and that’s not what girls are supposed to be interested in?

have you ever attended a job interview and been asked whether you were planning to have babies in the next five years?

Stop. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m 40 and I have never, ever even heard anyone older than the age of 12 tell a girl that she should not pursue her interests because she is a girl. That dhip dailed back on the 70’s. I have however heard plenty of men be told they need to pursue more “masculine” intetests. That shit still happens.
I know for a fact on at least two ocassions I was denied even getting an interview because I was not female. Thanks affirmative action.

Abortion rights you have

So, because you’ve never personally experienced it it never happens?

Stop. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Did you have your genitals mutilated at birth? I did.

Look those of us here in the first world complain waay too much. We divide each other, we don’t work together and we highlight shortcomings and don’t look at value.

Every year, hundreds of proposals are introduced in the House of Representatives to regulate women’s bodies. Ten states in 2013 proposed and nearly passed a total abortion ban. Where is the legislation to regulate men’s bodies? Surely there should be a greater number since men are the primary victims of sexism in your opinion.

Abortion is basically the only thing you can come up with?
Do you see the trap you just fell into? Why do suppose you feel you must 1up everything when it comes to the club you belong to?

I marched in the Women’s march. And I’m hardly a liberal.

Ok then.

Let’s talk about the fact that by the age of six, girls lose faith in their ability to do math and science.

Let’s talk about the fact that female musicians are rated more poorly than male musicians. When an audience is unable to see that orchestra members are female, they rate their performances better.

Let’s talk about the fact that male authors are more likely to get interest from publishers than female authors. A female writer submitted the same manuscript to a bunch of different publishers, using both a male name and a female name. Writing under a male name made her more than eight times more likely to get published, she found out.

Let’s talk about the fact that female coders are rated more highly than men, unless their raters know they are female, in which case they are rated more poorly.

Let’s talk about the fact that a quarter of women who voted for Trump and an even greater proportion of men believe that women do not make good leaders.

Should I continue?

Women are believed to be less competent, less capable, less intelligent, less ambitious, less insert desirable human characteristic than men are, but I guess I should just stop complaining about it, because you’ve never in your forty years heard a girl get told she shouldn’t do something she wanted to do, therefore, sexism isn’t a problem for women anymore.

You know, I’ve never heard a black person get called the n-word. Black people should stop whining about racism!

Anon, you just keep proving the point I’m trying to make. Your reaction is the trap we all fall into and in doing so we fail to help each other.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’m trying to highlight for you the fact that you have no idea what it is like to be on the receiving end of anti-female sexism, so don’t talk about it as if you do.

Discrimination is universal.

You would characterize my wanting to talk about it as petulant whining. But the only reason there has been any progress towards sex equality in the last century is because of the people who have been brave enough to talk about it and point out how unfair it is.

Discrimination is universal; is it equal? Are your political representatives trying to make you a slave to your reproductive organs?

If you called it the Men who don’t grab pussies March to protest Trump denigrating real men, then you would get George Soros to throw millions into the protest march and it would be YUGE!

It’s not equal for anyone yet we almost all know how it feels. At the same time we will never know how it feels to be someone else.

There is already a large movement gunning for equal rights between the genders. It is called feminism.

I think equal rights for men is perfect. Then they’d be equal with women’s rights and THAT is feminism. Just because I march for reproductive rights doesn’t mean I won’t also march to stop circumcision in baby boys. They aren’t mutually exclusive clubs.

Feminism has always fought for women first, men second. It’s not exactly egalitarian in that respect. This is the divisive element.

@ARE_you_kidding_me How does my (would be) husband and my male children not benefit from me having more equal rights? And it’s ok if you don’t get it. Because more women are going to University than ever before and more women are running their own businesses than ever before. We’ll stick up for equal treatment in the workplace ourselves. If you don’t get it, we really don’t need you.

Drop your labels, you’ll get more participation and understanding from people who are not just like you. There are people who will never support feminists even if they are fighting for their rights simply because of the angle and approach. What is so hard to understand about that?

@AnonymousAccount8 Another to add to the list was women scientists applying to lab manager position. Apparently even women discriminated against other women. IMO that can only happen when it’s deeply embedded in the culture.

Human rights shouldn’t be predicated on a marketing angle, bro.

I’m about 8000% over being told I need to appeal to men the right way in order to get them to agree that my life is worth as much as theirs.

All kinds of characters out there ready for any reaction you can imagine. Meanwhile, I marched my way to work today and my wife marched into the kitchen to cook me some dinner and take care of the kids. “Muh rights” isn’t an issue in this household.

Feminism has an image problem right now and not just with men. Shocktivism and slacktivism are pretty much taking a dump on the whole thing. Feminism is a marketing angle these days, one that is not working well.

Feminism is at an all time low. Only around 15% support feminism in America.

@kenki Source for that fact?

82 percent of Americans don’t consider themselves feminists, poll shows

THIS is why we need feminism: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/01/six-year-old-girls-already-have-gendered-beliefs-about-intelligence/514340/

I was at the woman’s march in my area. It was peaceful and humorous and wonderfully diverse. It was a call out to the rest of the nation (and world) that we were ready to defend basic human rights/civil liberties/equality/call it what you will—this one “feminist” march contained a broad array of sociopolitical issues. And this is the part of feminism that I love—its inclusivity. Sure, there is some percentage of feminists out there that disparages men, or tries to alienate/ostracize others over minor disagreements or misunderstandings… but that’s not the majority, and that’s not the strain of feminism that’s winning out. And yes, there were plenty of men. Of course there were.

I was with a group of acquaintances, and one of them had a friend who was going up to the men she saw, trying to shake their hands and thank them for being there. It was, I guess, well-meaning, but it was fairly rude in how it was insinuating that these men were “heroic” and “against the grain” to support “women,” never mind the fact that this march wasn’t only for women’s rights. Very quickly a man answered back, “where else would I be?” and she seemed to realize what she was doing. She apologized and stopped… A story which I think suggests at least two things. First, plenty of people were marching for the same rights while holding differing and sometimes clashing perspectives—perspectives which they can share, discuss, and analyze with each other. Second, the “women first” stance doesn’t have to stop equality-minded people from standing up for women’s rights under the already well-established umbrella of feminism. In fact, the more people who stand more clearly for equality under that umbrella, the better. (Especially in a larger context where the more extreme or fringe perspectives are seemingly, increasingly, taking over their respective groups.)

Men do have equality in those things you named in the original Q in almost every state. A few states might still lean towards the mother in child custody, but most are 50/50 now. If you want men and women to be equal than you are a feminist.

It sucks that feminism has a bad reputation. Almost every awesome thing I have been allowed to do in my life, from voting and going to college to studying my chosen major and being involved in my chosen sport, I credit to feminism.

Everything I have gotten to do that mattered to me has been because of the sacrifices of people who cared about women’s equal rights.

“If you want men and women to be equal than you are a feminist.”

I am not a feminist, yet I support the same things they support. I do not support, shocktivism, slacktivism, media overreaction or much of the silly behavior that goes on in the name of feminism. Like it or not this is what has been allowed to happen and almost nobody has called the perpetrators out on it. I want egalitarian progress for everyone, not just progress for females with a tiny nod for everyone else.

^^^ Men do have equality in those things you named in the original Q in almost every state.
In what state does a man have the right to be a father to the child that is inside the woman he boinked if she doesn’t want to be heavy with child for bikini season? What state is it that a man can walk away from being a father without cost if the woman he boinked wants to keep the child? If men can do that, then it is equal, if not equality is only desired when it benefits women, and so long as there are pussy whipped men going along with it because they are afraid their woman will have a ”headache” for half a year it will continue.

If you want men and women to be equal than you are a feminist.
No, I believe women are equal to men in importance but that importance doesn’t mean they have the same function. If I have a stack of beams and plywood and a box of hammers and no nails nothing is getting built. If I have dozens of boxes of nails and no hammers nothing gets built, it take both hammers and nails to build something, and the hammer and the nails have different functions to make the project work.

@Hypocrisy_Central I and every woman I know support equal parental rights for all pregnant men.

It seems obvious to me that many of the inequalities listed in the OP have come about due to the same tired traditional gender roles that harm women and that feminists fight against. If women are favored in custody battles it is because women are stereotyped as caregivers. This is a gender roles that hurts women and men. Feminism’s fight to give women equality outside the home will benefit both sexes.

@Hypocrisy_Central In what state do men carry and birth the babies? It’s impossible for the state to make these things completely equal. Men know the risks and yet they continue to knock up women. I do have sympathy for men who don’t want children and the couple has agreed they don’t want children, and then if the woman gets pregnant the men have no legal say, but are legally required to pay for the child. I have mixed feelings about requiring them to pay and be a father. If I have to choose, I say they should be held responsible, but it’s tricky. You don’t believe in abortion, so in your world neither parent gets a choice so it’s equal.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I think I can understand what you’re saying. It’s like a friend of mine who is against abortion. Not only for herself, but really against it, except in the case of the health of the mother. She never called herself pro-life. She didn’t want to be associated with that group. When we were teens and young adults was when there was a lot of protesting and shootings at abortion clinics. She was disgusted by the behavior, and so didn’t want to be associated with them in any way.

^ It’s impossible for the state to make these things completely equal.
Yet that is what feminist keep squawking about, if women cannot pass the test to be firemen dumb down the test so some can pass. If they cannot perform hand to hand combat on the field of battle dumb down the requirements so they can be grunts just for appearances sake.

Men know the risks and yet they continue to knock up women.
Women know the risk of getting pregnant when they hop on their back and open their legs. She is supposed to get a pass though or gain financially if she births the baby.

[…if the woman gets pregnant the men have no legal say, but are legally required to pay for the child. I have mixed feelings about requiring them to pay and be a father. If I have to choose, I say they should be held responsible, but it’s tricky
She doesn’t have to take responsibility but he does…I can see the equality in that. If feminist truly wanted equality if she wanted to have the child and he did not, she would do the time herself and not try to enrich her purse just because she made the choice for both of them.

Yeah feminism is great when the woman comes out ahead ~~~

Let me tell you about the so called poor dude that is taken advantage off. I have a cousin who lives in the same state as I . She has had a gun pulled to her head and her oldest thrown across a room and seen her mother choked in front of her at the age of 3. Her father was a useless drunk with severe anger issues and unemployed. Mom still had to arrange visits for the dad and only by the 3rd time in over a 2 year period did the judge actually tell him he would go to jail. They say they want to work at keeping the dad in a relationship with their dad. He never pays any child support because he takes jobs that pay under the table. It’s the only jobs he can get and he does it so he doesn’t have to pay child support. Now it took 3 times. And the gun to the head was witnessed by his step dad who stood up for her because he was afraid for her and the children. Ex stalked her and found out where she lived even though he was warned not to do so. He had more rights than what she did or her children.

Now things are better but at any time he could’ve killed her. His guns weren’t even taken away. It was all on her to find a safe place to live and support her children and live in fear. So please tell me how unfair it is for men. This is how a lot of women end up injured or dead. Men still have more rights the way I see it. Also, had a friend with 5 kids. Her no good husband left her for a younger woman. For years he didn’t pay child support. She had to work 2 jobs and almost died because she didn’t realize she had hyperthyroid. He just walked away and left her with all the responsibility. If it wasn’t for his 2nd wife he wouldn’t have a relationship with his kids. I know things can go both ways but most of the time, it is the men who are the abuser. There is also a history of women who are raped by men and men get off because of money or the woman is accused of asking for the rape because of the way she dressed. So no. By far. Men as a large group haven’t earned the right to complain.
Men can also get all kinds of help from their insurance to make sure their little soldier stands straight and tall but women get to have men tell them what they should or shouldn’t be able to do with their bodies by controlling insurance.

Back to the cousin. She didn’t take any public financial assistance even when she needed it. Why? Because the government would’ve taken him to court and she was terrified to make him angry.

@Hypocrisy_Central The men have to pay, but women don’t? Is that what you said? Bullshit. First, I’m guessing we are talking about children born out of wedlock or in divorce situations. If the child lived with the mother the father has to pay child support, but unless he’s really rich, seldom the case, the mother has to make money too. If the child lived with the father the mother has to pay the child support. It’s completely equal when it comes to the money. If the child lives 50% of the time with each parent, the parent who makes more money will pay some child support, doesn’t matter the gender of the parent, it’s perfectly equal.

If one parent wants to give up the baby and the other doesn’t, the parent who wants to doesn’t get to do it and is on the hook to support the child.

Somebody name a single right men enjoy that women do not.

Promotion without prejudice. Meaning that the boss will promote you knowing that he won’t lose you to maternity leave.

@cazzie “Meaning that the boss will promote you knowing that he won’t lose you to maternity leave.”

I may be interpreting your answer wrong but as an employer in the US I am very aware that if a woman in my employ becomes pregnant she is protected in her employment and afforded maternity leave as allowed by the Fed and State no matter how big a promotion I gave her.

but we both know that isn’t how it eventuates.

In my company women are often promoted above men because it’s so hard to keep them on staff. My female boss has five kids and they still promoted her. She took maternity leave for all of them. @cazzie that little example the best you got? I have a very hard time seeing this “huge gap” between male and female rights in the developed world.

Developed world…... how many weeks of for her was paid maternity? She have a husband who has an income for the family too? What is in place for a woman who suddenly finds herself alone and with five kids? I highly doubt it would be the same result.

Motherhood is a cost no employer wants to take on. We do it ourselves.

@cazzie “but we both know that isn’t how it eventuates.” please do not speak for me and tell me what you said means? Eventuates? Do you employ women in a company in the US? Are you under the thumb of US Federal discrimination laws? Just to clarify…I do and I am.

Companies are scared to death of lawsuits and bad press. You don’t mess with the eeoc especially if you’re a little guy. The other side of the coin is that it’s simply getting harder to find male graduates with the proper qualifications. There is no such thing as too many females or minorities in a company. When I was finally hired I was one of like three white males in an orientation with over fifty or sixty. Now even fathers get about a month off to be with their families when having children. It’s simply the built-in cost of doing business here in the states.

This thread, like the protest that inspired it is a big ol’ chunk of rich and delicious irony:

This thread and the protest underscore the hypocrisy of feminism.

The protesters and commenters call Trump the devil while he rails against societies and nations in which women are denied the most essential of human rights. Where women are forbidden to drive, gain an education, are bought and sold, are killed for having been raped in the interest of minimizing family embarrassment.

In all seriousness, shame on you.

Shame.

We rail against Trump’s efforts to deny those women the opportunity to come here to seek a better life.

@SecondHandStoke By your logic, we’d still have “colored” water fountains because there are black people still in slavery in some parts of the world…

It would only be hypocritical if those same feminists were supporting those other horrible problems you mentioned.

I think that bad mouthing feminism also stems from the fact that people forget that the whole point of feminism was about choice. Whether that is abortion or what career path to pursue.
A women can still choose to be a stay at home mom or an astronaut and both choices should be considered valid choices. One of the ugly facets of feminism is pitting women against women in the choices they make. The female astronaut is not any more valuable than the mommy at home.

I was on the ground floor, damn near, of the feminist movement and in a lot of ways women were even more screwed. Now we were expected to work, bring home the bacon, still do the lions share of the domestic crap and child raisong and still suck our mens dicks on demand all the while still deferring to the king of the castle. Trust me, the 70’s and 80’s still really sucked on this front. Men may have played lip service but deep down they were still raging chauvinists.

If men can pee standing up they don’t need a march.

love ya guys. I’m just jealous.

@Cruiser Yeah… Fuck your system… I was entitled… ENTITLED to at least 8 months full pay after my son was born. I was then given an allowance to ensure that he was fed and housed and cared for. Your system has nothing of the sort. I will check my privilege as a single mother in a civilised country…. Do you dare to check your own privilege?

@SecondHandStoke This thread, like the protest that inspired it is a big ol’ chunk of rich and delicious irony..

This thread is actually about a man who cannot stand that women are not always subservient to him, and rails against equal rights every chance he gets.

And, as I said to him, equal rights for women doe NOT mean less rights for you.

If Trump and his supporters are doing so much to protect women, why is the Speaker of the House pushing, with the full support of the White House, to defund women’s access to health care? Just one of many reasons people, both women and men, marched last week., and will actively resist the destruction of the health care system in the US.

@Pandora He never pays any child support because he takes jobs that pay under the table. It’s the only jobs he can get and he does it so he doesn’t have to pay child support.
Because there is no oversite in favor of the man, no one is making sure she is not buying watches for the new boyfriend or booking trips to take with him off money slated for the child(ren). I have met people over my tome on this rock that the state double billed them, took nearly half their pay even when it threaten to make them homeless, some even wondered where the money went because when they picked up their kid(s) for visitation, the kid was always in cheap shoes or ones very much used. I have spoken to many guys who said they would not mind paying if it were fair and they get proof the money was going to their kid and not nail appointments for the ex.

There are douchebag men as well as women, because they exist is neither here nor there.

@JLeslie If the child lives 50% of the time with each parent, the parent who makes more money will pay some child support, doesn’t matter the gender of the parent, it’s perfectly equal.
It would be if the guy got 50/50 100% of the time, but they don’t.

@cazzie Meaning that the boss will promote you knowing that he won’t lose you to maternity leave.
I hear someone yelling ”fire” but I see no flame….where is the proof of that? On Fluther if there is no proof, then it doesn’t exist.

What is in place for a woman who suddenly finds herself alone and with five kids?
If it was by divorce or death, it is an unfortunate occurrence, if because she rented a relationship with a man or many men, then it is her own fault for not locking it down. It doesn’t matter how much furniture to put ion a house or how long you been there, if you don’t have the title and are asked to leave, you can’t get mad because you never possessed it in the first place, you were merely squatting.

@Mariah We rail against Trump’s efforts to deny those women the opportunity to come here to seek a better life.
My how the winds of feminism keep shifting trying to move things when they keep running against unmovable reason. ~~

@Coloma Now we were expected to work, bring home the bacon, still do the lions share of the domestic crap and child raisong and still suck our mens dicks on demand all the while still deferring to the king of the castle.
It was women’s idea they could do it all without a man, sometimes you get to bit the fruit, but it causes indigestion. Most women are told not to stay home less you be a slave to the man, if there is even a man in the home, so many, many castles have no king in them at all, but this was not the idea of men.

I’ll ask again.

Name a single right men enjoy that women do not.

Extra credit:

Tell us what happens when you look up www.menshealthcare.gov

The right to not be taxed for necessary health and hygiene products they must use in a polite society?

http://fusion.net/story/142965/states-that-tax-tampons-period-tax/

Men are taxed on their hygene products too. Last I checked deoderant, shampoo, bandaids, toothbrushes were taxed. I think their should be a total exemption from sales tax for food, hygene and medical products.

@Hypocrisy_Central They don’t what? Get 50% time with their kid? They do a lot of the time in the last 15 years in divorce situations. A lot of men don’t want that set up. Too much work, but many do.

If the baby is born out of wedlock then in many states the father has zero legal right to custody of the child, unless he does the needed paperwork to ask the courts to grant him visitation or custody or whatever. The state will require he help support the baby even if he has no custody rights. However, the courts very much lean in favor of the father being a part of the child’s life, so if the dad formally asks through the system for court ordered time with the kid it almost always is granted.

The state cares about practical matters more than anything. The state wants the father in the financial hook so few tax payers will need to pay the bills. The state wants the father involved, because it believes there are better outcomes for the child. Less likely to be a delinquent and cost the state tax payer money. The state gives automatic full custody to an unwed mother, because at the time of birth there isn’t time for negotiations on custody and whether the father is around or not, and the baby needs a legal guardian.

If you think that’s not fair, how would you do it as a practical matter?

This is why when the son of a close friend of mine knocked up his girlfriend I worry that he could get royally screwed. See, I agree men often are in a tough position legally regarding this topic, and if my son had a baby I would want the law to treat him fairly, but my best advice for men is have children with someone you live who you are married to if you want to be able to see your children all the time.

@SecondHandStoke It isn’t that men currently have rights that women don’t have; it is that women’s rights are under attack by the current party in the majority in Congress and in the Administration.

These attacks are personified by laws restricting access to abortions, access to birth control, access to women’s health providers.

“I have spoken to many guys who said they would not mind paying if it were fair and they get proof the money was going to their kid and not nail appointments for the ex.”
And I know of women who do their own nails. How do they know how much their ex paid for it? And does their ex work? Does she have to pay 1000 bucks a month for child care or pay for after school care? Does she pay for their medical insurance monthly? Does she pay for the copay when the kid is sick? How much does she pay for their childs clothing monthly and food? How much for the internet for the kid to do school work? How much for the uniforms in sports the kid goes too? Is the kid in private or public school? Special needs? Seeing a therapist or some counselor? All those things cost money and most of them probably cost more than what he is giving in child support. And if he’s rich. He needs to get over it.
On average too. Women make 80 cents to the dollar a man makes. Why do you think a lot of jobs require a do not disclose agreement in regards to salary. If everything was above board then this shouldn’t exist. I have a cousin in California who found out he was earning twice the amount of his female counterpart. She thought he must’ve been investing his money wisely to have the huge home he had because she could never afford it on her salary. The funny part is he got let go because they realized they could hire another woman at a lower salary. But not funny is the fact that business will see women as low wage hires.

What is the point of the bit about menshealthcare.gov? womenshealthcare.gov doesn’t go anywhere either.

“On average too. Women make 80 cents to the dollar a man makes. ”

May want to look into that one cause it’s not the case. It’s also against the law. It’s this kind of misinformation and propaganda that keeps me from taking feminists seriously.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Not my statistics. Here are the stats from US bureau of Labor and more recent from the Washington Post. It also varies state to state. And in case you think this is just from liberal sites, here is one from fox news and they are far from being pro women.

^^ “On average too. Women make 80 cents to the dollar a man makes.”

Then why are businesses foolish enough to pay more in labor by hiring any men?

“And they (Fox News) are far from being pro women.”

Then why do I see any of them working for the organization?

The Washington Post article points out that the wage gap is a complex issue without a simple (single) explanation. It’s worth reading all the way through whatever side of the issue someone might fall—and it highlights a frustration I have (and I’m pretty sure most of us have) about how quickly different sides of an issue latch onto pieces of a statistical scenario and treat that one piece like the solution to the whole. I’m grateful when I can find (or gather together) more comprehensive perspectives, because I’m sure I get more partial perspectives than I mean to… But our national discourse would have to be far more functional than it currently is for us to reach that level of detail in the daily, ordinary back and forth… and however far from that type of discourse we were before, wherever else we’d going be if someone else was steering, this new administration is certainly not taking us closer.

Also, on the march… I thought it wasn’t so much a “let’s do this new thing” as it was “hey, we’ve heard all those things that were said during the campaign trail, the ones that were aimed at the legs of [insert various laws/programs here], and we’re marching to show that we’re going to fight to keep those things in place, and/or to protect the rights people have fought so hard to gain.” And it was organized by women because Trump—specifically Trump—has a documented legacy of objectifying and verbally attacking women (particularly when he dislikes what they say), and during his campaign he made moves to support illegalizing abortion, getting rid of planned parenthood funding, abolishing the ACA (along with the coverage for birth control)... etc., but that’s all I’m calling to mind right now.

Yeah those 80%numbers have been debunked. Simpy taking the sum of male salaries and dividing them by the sum of female salaries is not showing discrimination. It’s really showing differences in behavior.
If you compare salaries of males and females in the same job at the same working level you don’t see a 20% difference, it’s like 3%, there are a lot of factors here.

Explain this then: The gender pay gap has historically been wide in health care. According to a Journal of American Medical Association Internal Medicine study from 2013, female physicians earned about $50,000 less than males each year. And while nursing is an occupation dominated by women, male nurses make an average of more than $5,000 more per year than women, according to a 2014 JAMA study.

What disciplines are males going into and which are females going into? What about overtime, extra credentials, females exiting the workforce early or not asking for a raise? I mean it’s not usually discrimination it’s a set of factors. Nursing for example has a high turnover rate, males typically can’t just escape having to work as easily as females can so they end up staying in the workforce longer and will rise to head positions simply out of attrition. They also tend to stick to their chosen careers at higher rates. When you account for all of that discrimination certainly looks pretty insignificant.

@ARE_you_kidding_me You do understand how averages work. As for how is it that fox hires women because women draw men and women viewers and sponsors. They aren’t completely stupid. Now how about you prove that the numbers are false.

As a matter of fact, I remember years back when I worked in a bank as a teller. We had a new guy that we found out was earning 2 dollars more an hour than we were. Everyone else were women except for the manager and assistant manager. We found out because the head teller let it leak out one day. This pissed her off. He had no prior time with the company and had never been a teller before like many of us. He was just automatically given more. Why? He worked the same hours as we did and was lazier often pawning off his work to other tellers who he knew had a crush on him. Eventually people stopped doing him favors when they realized he was using them and he left the moment he got another job he was waiting to hear from. There are plenty of women who work overtime. I know because I was one of them. Eventually I stopped doing it when jobs stopped paying overtime but expected miracles to be performed within certain hours even when they dropped off something big on your lap a few minutes before closing. That was my last job. My boss would want something that would take 2 hours to finish and give it to be an hour before. When I ask about overtime, she (yes she) would tell me she would make it up to me but couldn’t give me the ok for being paid for my time over. So she would try to give me a half hour extra here or their to make up for it. And my lunch was a work lunch. Why did I stay? Because they a dollar more than most local jobs and employment opportunities were bare bones and I had a kid in college. I have known plenty of women who work long hard hours. So don’t use that women are lazy to justify getting paid less. Which is another thing. A guy leaves on time. Well he has important things to do. A woman wants to leave on time. She’s so lazy and needy.

Twist that some more will ya? I Never even tried to hint that it was because “women are lazy” you must have a preconcieved notion that people think this is the case.

@JLeslie If the baby is born out of wedlock then in many states the father has zero legal right to custody of the child, unless he does the needed paperwork to ask the courts to grant him visitation or custody or whatever.
You don’t see any rights for men denied in that? It is half his DNA, half his child and he has no rights to interact with it on GP?

@Pandora How do they know how much their ex paid for it? And does their ex work? Does she have to pay 1000 bucks a month for child care or pay for after school care? Does she pay for their medical insurance monthly? Does she pay for the copay when the kid is sick? How much does she pay for their childs clothing monthly and food? How much for the internet for the kid to do school work? How much for the uniforms in sports the kid goes too? Is the kid in private or public school? Special needs? Seeing a therapist or some counselor? All those things cost money and most of them probably cost more than what he is giving in child support.
Those cost do not get cheaper because she rakes the man over the coals, but if he had 50% custody that makes her paying only half. If she purchased a boat with another who is a 50% owner of it, then half the cost of the sails, the slip rental, ropes, cleaning supplies, fuel, etc. falls on the other person. If she wants to own all of the boat or 80%, if the other person doesn’t want to be a sailor, guess what, it falls on her that is fair; unless you are a feminist.

@SecondHandStoke Then why are businesses foolish enough to pay more in labor by hiring any men?
That would make practical sense for the bottom line but the preponderance of evidence doesn’t point to that being a systemic. What I have seen more with all this whining of fairness, either by race or gender is companies seeing they can kill two birds with one blow by hiring a Black or Hispanic women, then they can get from under the misogynist, racist banner in one fell swoop.

If that puts white men at a disadvantage, because some come from affluent families, they have so many more rights anyhow, it is OK to stack the deck against them, they are white men, they always land on their feet. ~~

@ARE_you_kidding_me—I’ve been chewing on the phrase “males typically can’t just escape having to work as easily as females can,” that they “rise to head positions simply out of attrition”... that seems to depict the wage gap as something in which men have little say or choice. Using the word “escape” also seems to suggest that being “stuck working” isn’t something those men want, that the promotions are just a little compensation… So why isn’t that a national dialogue? Why does a dissatisfaction in job structure come back to feminism being the problem—especially when work-life balance is one of the concepts feminism has been trying to resolve, particularly work-family balance? Especially when feminism gives rise to self-sufficient women, freeing men of having to be the sole breadwinners? If women can simply choose higher-paying occupations and ask for raises, why can’t men simply ask for time—or if that’s not in the cards yet, work for a social structure where they can ask for that time?

@JLeslie You are sort of saying one thing and then another here. Men do have a right to custody when couples aren’t married. Even rapists can file paperwork in 31 States to get visitation or custody rights to any child that results because of his crime.

@cazzie Noooo! Really? That’s fucked up beyond words.

@Soubresaut Yeah, that’s firmly planted in “it’s complicated” Something that is apparent is that not everyone is lucky enough to have work that is enjoyable. It’s probably quite rare and many people have stressfull jobs. Men typically don’t have the house-husband mentality and are less likely to be stay at home dads. I know a few but it’s rare. Raising a family is expensive and taxing to both parents. More often than not the female will leave the workforce and be at home with the kids while the male is tasked with keeping the family finances going. It usually means staying in jobs they don’t exactly like so their family is supported. We all know that it’s seldom this clean and a lot of time the females will have work as well but not always full-time. Sometimes moms are single, sometimes dads are. All that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at wage gaps. When it is, they almost vanish. Feminists don’t exactly march to make stay at home dads socially acceptable. Right now they are not so much but should be. There is also built in biology that drives some of those preferences and if we are being honest as a society it needs to be acknowledged as well. Complicated.

Yes, complicated. And I agree that gender discrimination is vastly improved. Adding to the complication, though, are the societal influences that can still affect a person’s choice of career. It was mentioned higher up in the thread—but the study that discovered how, when gender is unknown, women’s code tends to be rated as better than men’s—but when gender is known, the preference switches. The tech industry is currently trying to mitigate the various societal influences that they are finding tend to turn women away from tech jobs—influences that tell women they aren’t wanted or respected in that sort of position. There’s also history of a jobs’ pay changing at the same time that women enter those fields: “Another study, overseen by Paula England of New York University, used Census data from 1950 to 2000 to reveal that as certain occupations became dominated by women, wages began to fall.” I know there are societal influences affecting men’s choices as well, and those deserve to be discussed—something which feminism is actually eager to do these days. The most recent march was focused on the recent rhetoric aimed at various women’s rights, so yes that was the focus. And yes, there are some approaches to feminism that I disagree with (like the woman I described above who was thanking men as if it were surprising they were there, as if feminism was ordinarily a man v. woman thing rather than a movement trying to breakdown gender roles and gender-based hierarchies.) And there are still women who experience various forms of sexism. But saying “it’s complicated” doesn’t mean there can’t also still be lingering disparities, just as bringing up those lingering disparities doesn’t discredit the tremendous progress that has already occurred. To me, 79 cents on the dollar is a talking point. Feminism is the people who are breaking down that statistic to figure out what’s going on and what we can or should do about it.

When the 79 cents on the dollar figure is brought up it’s almost never used in the context of career influence or qualified as how it was derived. It’s used to indicate that there is some institutional discrimination. That’s just flat out deceitful and wrong. Yet it persists and people who know better continue to use it in that context. It’s likely discouraging for young women to be deluded into believing this is the case..and it’s “feminists” who continue to preach it. I use the quotes because geminism has been taken over by bloggers looking for ad revenue and others looking to propel themselves into the limelight. Bullshit never gets called out, nobody is driving the movement anymore, there are no solid goals, it’s just a mess. I’m always going to be behind equal rights but I have a very hard time taking modern feminism seriously. I think it’s actually causing damage to male-female relations and even to a small extent basic civil rights. There is a lot of wasted momentum and energy going into the wacky stuff that just should not be part of the gameplan and when others can’t take it seriously because of the silliness you have a harder time getting real issues the attention they deserve.

Feminism and the variations in earnings is like saying no matter what you should earn the same amount no matter what job in the company. Those who are required to do more, or have more skilled are cheating if they get paid more for that effort or skill

^ Nobody’s saying that.

If women make less on average, yes, it is probably because women don’t ascend as high on the corporate ladder than men do, not because managers are rubbing their palms together like movie villains and saying “let’s see how much we can stiff the ladies.” The question is, why don’t we rise? Is it because we choose to drop out of the workforce early? Is it because women don’t get promoted because society doesn’t view them as leaders? If it is because of a choice women are making, why are they making that choice? Is it because we raised them to believe it was natural for them to eventually have to become homemakers? Or is it because they sincerely want to be homemakers in higher proportions than men do? Maybe it’s not because we don’t rise on the corporate ladder, but because we don’t go into high paying STEM fields. Why don’t we go into STEM fields? Is it because we don’t do enough to encourage young girls to be interested in those fields? Is it because they found the environment in those classrooms hostile to them? Or do they just not like those subjects as much as men do for some reason? These are the questions that feminism is asking. And where the answers are problematic, we seek to solve them.

@Mariah, thank you. Jesus, it’s about time. You have the right idea, most claiming to be feminists I have crossed paths with don’t. Like you may be one out of like two. The rest just regurgitate the same tired talking points that don’t necessarily reflect the current state of things or even stuff that even matters like the “tampon tax.”

@HC a few probably think like that but I generally disagree with you on this.

@Hypocrisy_Central and @cazzie In many states the unwed mother has automatic full custody when the baby is born. If the father just does the paperwork (yes it costs some money, although some states have lawyers who help sit it for free, my friend used to do it in MI) the state almost always grants partial custody to the father. The state leans towards children having equal time with mothers and fathers.

The father doesn’t need legal custody for the mother to allow the father time with the child. They can ignore doing any paperwork and just handle it all between themselves. A father goes to the courts if he wants to see his child and the mother isn’t allowing it. Or, if it’s important the father can make decisions, like medical decisions, for the child, then he probably should have some sort of legal custody or something legal, I don’t know exactly how that works in each state.

Typically, in most unwed situations in the US, I don’t think the father wants full custody. I’m sure some do, but I think it’s a small number.

@JLeslie You said he has no right to custody of the child,... and then followed it up with ‘unless’ and that’s a big unless. Of course some paperwork needs filling out if both parties want or need something formalised.

@Mariah Is it because women don’t get promoted because society doesn’t view them as leaders?
I have seen women get promotions, even upper management and sometimes quicker than males. Even some major corporations have female CEOs, not to mention how many more TV anchors there are that are women, the so-called conspiracy to bar qualified women from upper management doesn’t have much steam.

If it is because of a choice women are making, why are they making that choice?
With some women, some have the audacity to admit to wanting to be home for the children and family, seeing their role there as more important than chasing the money.

Is it because we raised them to believe it was natural for them to eventually have to become homemakers?
Women have been keeping the house for thousands of years, and no one has a problem with it until feminist came around and made it seem like some criminal activity. Who is supposed to it? Perhaps the women thought they could don the armored suits and swing a battle axe better than the men who were in the King’s army? Perhaps they thought they could fight hand to hand in a fox hole on Guadalcanal?

Is it because we don’t do enough to encourage young girls to be interested in those fields?
Maybe thinking they needed to be encouraged is wrong thinking, maybe they don’t do it because they are plain not interested in doing it.

@ARE_you_kidding_me @HC a few probably think like that but I generally disagree with you on this.
I was an observation, not that it is my solid position.

@JLeslie If the father just does the paperwork (yes it costs some money, although some states have lawyers who help sit it for free, my friend used to do it in MI) the state almost always grants partial custody to the father.
If it were totally equal the father would have 50% custody without having to do one damn thing.

Typically, in most unwed situations in the US, I don’t think the father wants full custody. Typically, in most unwed situations in the US, I don’t think the father wants full custody.
I have met about as equal amount of men who did not care to have contact with their children and half do, but they have no say, some are not even allowed to be the dad they want to be, with no concern from the woman.

@Hypocrisy_Central No Solomon, eh? It is psychologically detrimental for a child to be bounced between two homes. The adults involved have to act like adults and do what is in the best interest of the child. They need to check their (often over inflated) egos.

And I know plenty of parents that feel they don’t get to be the kind of parent they want to be for a number of reasons. Blaming the other parent is a complete cop-out.

@Hypocrisy_Central They have no say? Why not? Why no say? Also, 50/50 custody is not the only choice or possibility. It can be every other weekend, all summer, holidays, the agreements vary.

It’s not totally equal unless the father does the paperwork. He needs to make the little bit of effort. The woman spent 9 months baking the baby, and then hours in pain getting the baby out and recovering. She had additional health costs to take care of herself during this time, even if it’s just she was eating more and buying clothing that fit. The father can file the proper paperwork if he’s that interested. If he waits months and years after the baby is born he’s at a disadvantage, because it demonstrates lack of interest.

He needs to show “equal” effort if he wants to be treated equally.

@cazzie I know in FL and MI the state expects the father to have contact with the baby. Expects, meaning the state has an expectation the mother will allow the father to be a part of the child’s life, even before formalized paperwork, but for the father to have legal rights that he can enforce he needs the legal paperwork done. I think TN was the same too.

We have strong equal rights with child rearing. I can’t move out of the county, yes, county, without my ex’s permission. He could see his kid more but every other weekend is all he can cope with. I’m sure he’d like to be a better father, but I’m most certainly not the reason he can’t be. Parenting is tough.

@cazzie Most custody agreements in America have stipulations regarding how far away a parent can live. I think it can vary from miles to county to state. It can be adjusted if both parents agree.

In America men will fight for more custody even when they don’t care or intend to see the child that amount of time. The more custody they have the less child support they have to pay.

@JLeslie it isn’t in any ‘custody agreement’ here, it is simply the law. It works the same here for how much custody to child support, but we weren’t the ones who moved away, he did. so transporting him to school during the week isn’t possible for him, so first he took him one weekend a month, and then agreed to two.
Men all have their reasons for how much time they spend with their kids. Like I said, parenting is tough and using the other parent as a scapegoat and excuse is easy.

@cazzie I see the clarification you are making now. It might be the case here that there is some sort of automatic law in some states regarding how far you can move away, and then maybe agreements can change it. I really don’t know.

HC, I’m just not going to engage with you about this once again. Not worth it.

@cazzie No Solomon, eh? It is psychologically detrimental for a child to be bounced between two homes.
The case that Solomon was dealing with was a different issue than anything spoken here.

Blaming the other parent is a complete cop-out.
Which is why the men I know (not grown boys who can shave) strive to have 50/50 custody at least, because they know if they are reduced to a twice weekend a month and special occasion ”Disneyland Dad” even those times will be strained as the bulk of time will be with the woman hearing all her rants about what a douchebag the father was, poisoning the child with malice for their father.

@JLeslie It can be every other weekend, all summer, holidays, the agreements vary.
Read above, that will explain why that is not an acceptable option to some.

He needs to make the little bit of effort. The woman spent 9 months baking the baby, and then hours in pain getting the baby out and recovering. She had additional health costs to take care of herself during this time, even if it’s just she was eating more and buying clothing that fit.
With those who believe the world is just the world, the man should be blamed because that is the random way people are born and ended up falling more on women or the female side of species? The man had nothing to do with the woman having to host the developing human, that is a poor excuse to say he is irrelevant and have no rights unless he jumps through hoops and hurdles of the state If fat people have to buy clothes that fit just because they can’t stop eating, getting bigger clothes because of pregnancy is just a byproduct of it, still not the man’s fault.

He needs to show “equal” effort if he wants to be treated equally.
Equal desire and effort don’t always show up in visual means, if one wanted to do that, one can could say if a woman really loved and was dedicated to her children she would forgo her own ambitions until the children were near out of the house or able to drive themselves wherever. But you would not here that from the feminine left.

@Mariah HC, I’m just not going to engage with you about this once again. Not worth it.
If one always shows up to an aerial dogfight against F-15E Strike Eagles in a cloth covered bi-plane it would not be worth it, they will get flamed every time. ~~~

HC, you have said multiple times in your “bullying” threads that if I don’t like what you say I should not respond to it. I am trying to do that for you. Is it what you really want or not?

@Mariah HC, you have said multiple times in your “bullying” threads that if I don’t like what you say I should not respond to it
If you are not there to civilly engage the question I say I won’t miss your comment or that of anyone else. I don’t have ”bullying threads”, only insulting people would believe that. But, I will keep praying for you anyhow, bygones.