Are you amazed at what a disaster the Trump presidency is turning out to be?
Asked by
jca (
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)
February 14th, 2017
Supporters continue to support him, I’m not sure why or how.
Every day it’s another disaster. Now it’s the Michael Flynn scandal and resignation. It goes on and on like a freight train.
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125 Answers
I am not at all surprised and I expect more. I read that Trump is okay with his poll ratings as long as they stay around 40%. It will be interesting to see if any of Trump’s supporters get to see the light.
I remember the moment I first heard that Trump would be President of the United States of America. I have not been and will not be amazed by any subsequent events.
Not at all. Smart minds knew he was incompetent and he surrounded himself by idiots.
This presidency is exactly what I expected.
No. My whole future may get completely fucked up because of that orange idiot. There is nothing amazing in there.
not that he’d be 100% responsible, but him being elected triggers a lot of things, and many here rely on him and his support
No. Trump’s presidency is a train wreck. Once the engine leaves the track all that is left is the piling on.
Amazed yes, surprised no.
Flynn resigning is only the tip of the iceberg over this “scandal”. I heard on the radio coming into work today that there is suspicion around this leak/disclosure of Flynn’s phone conversation with the Russian ambassador. Who ever leaked this phone call broke some very serious Federal laws as Flynn was a US citizen at the time of the call and disclosing the name of a citizen’s private phone conversation with a foreign diplomat was not only illegal but disclosing this call with the diplomat exposes secrets of how our Government spies on our frenimies. So essentially this spying protocol is exposed and is rendered useless now. The fact this was done before Trump’s inauguration this was then done during the previous administration and this leaked only now smacks as someone deliberately attempting to undermine the Trump administration and again another very serious infraction.
Disclosure of Flynn’s phone call with the Russian Diplomat was as stupid as it can get. Our National Security was severely compromised and now any foreign leader should be concerned that their conversations risk being leaked…Some heads are going to roll over this.
I am not amazed and the only reason I can figure that people are still supporting him is that a) they are as crazy as he is, or b) they secretly are appalled but are not admitting it to save face after having been so adamant about him.
A lot of people on the right and left are simply watching and waiting for it all to crash and burn.
Not really. He’s doing all the things he’s said he’d do.
I subscribe to The Economist. It gives me a world view of politics here and abroad.
Their comments are generally spot on – and they give the data to support them. Highly recommended reading.
@ARE_you_kidding_me My 401k has been riding the Dow so I am smiling. But, I recently decided to hedge my bet and have made changes in case it does crash and burn. I figure it is insurance. In 4 weeks there have been so many screw ups this can’t last.
There are so many potential conflict of interest charges is seems like something we’d see in a Banana republic.
Wait until investigators discover why bank presidents approved massive loans after he had declared bankruptcy 2, 3, 4 times. Will someone find payments?
Why is GSA paying for (at least) one floor in a building he owns? Heck I can’t even buy a screwdriver if it comes from a company owned by me or a family member.
I worked for a large company years ago. When we made agreements in China they would wait until we had made a huge investment in a facility and then invalidate the agreements by stating “Sorry. That agreement was made with Mr Wang. He is no longer with us. This is the new agreement.” And so on…
Sadly the world is slowly starting to lump the US into that category.
Yep, I’m bracing for a blow up.
I have been smiling too, my stock picks have been beating the market. Like you though I’m on a hair trigger to pull out. I think we are headed for a downturn shortly.
What I’m worried about is how citizens like @Cruiser have a comment like his as a come-away from this whole situation. THAT fucking scares me.
Not at all surprised by what the Trump administration is doing.
A tiny bit surprised that anyone continues to support them, but then I remember it’s America where the far right has become the centre.
@cazzie Our National Security is important to me and a minor reason I voted for Trump. And when there is evidence someone in the Obama administration is intentionally and recklessly fucking around with our National Security I am more than alarmed by this news. Plus our rights as citizens is bigley important to me and when Flynn’s or anyone’s fourth amendment rights are fucked with I take notice. So sorry this concerns you.
correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the fuck-up Flynn a Trump appointee?
The leak may have been unwise for many reason @Cruiser, but we don’t know that his rights were violated. He was in contact with a foreign agent discussing potential policy. The Russian agent was probably under surveillance, and approved under a warrant from the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Once a US citizen was involved, then the FBI takes over and they could seek an additional warrant from the FISC. FISC actions are generally classified. Arguments about the FISC and how it impacts the 4th amendment is a separate issue, and a good one to have.
Leaks such as this occur all the time. They are planned so as not to reveal any information about the source. In this case, all that could be said was that Flynn’s phone was wire-tapped, or perhaps even the lines going to the Russian embassy are tapped…nothing the Russians don’t already know, and nothing that they do not do to our embassy in Moscow.
I’m not amazed. I expected some crazy shit to happen. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised and like some of the things he was going to do, but overall I was scared of him and the direction he would take the country.
Not at all surprised. I knew it would be a cluster-fuck and it is.
No surprises at the way it is going. And the supporters are starting to turn.
Yesterday, Police and Fire Fighter unions in Iowa complained because the Republicans are eliminating collective bargaining statutes, after teh police and firemne supproted Republican candidates.
And the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus is tired of the delays in replacing Affordable Care, and moved yesterday to repeal without any alternative.
@Cruiser a couple of things to consider:
You seem to be trying to justify what Flynn did or at least obfuscate the facts by focusing on how the US public learned of his actions and not what he actually did. Blaming a low level operative in the intelligence community for this is like trying to pin the entire embarrassing episode of torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib on Lynndie England while letting Rumsfeld walk free with not even a slap on the wrist.
The Trump admin was given warnings over a month ago that there could be problems brewing and an investigation was under way. Even knowing this Flynn was still briefed with classified information and relied upon to make decisions for the administration. You would think that, with the foreknowledge, his activities would have been curtailed and responsibilities reduced but they were not. As far as I can discern no concern was registered, nothing was done about it and it appeared that the present administration was going to be swept under the mat.
It appears that even though the administration knew there was an investigation and potential problems, the VP Pence (and we should still address the lies of Conway and Spicer) still went before the US public and said Flynn did not do what he has been shown to have done. Again, he knew there were questions and yet felt he could do so with impunity. Was it because he did not think Flynn would be found to have misled them or is it because he felt like any conflicts of interest could and would just “disappear”? Was he not informed? Did he know and lie? Was he in on it from the start and covering his own ass? All questions that need to be investigated. What are the odds that Flynn was operating in a vacuum with none of the big boys like Trump and Pence being aware of, if not authorizing, his discussions with the Russians? Since Trump is a micro-manager probably pretty slim.
This morning, now that he has resigned, he mentions “several” phone calls he had with the Russians, not just one as he, and Pence, had earlier stated occurred. More lies upon lies. How can we trust them Ok, I admit I never did but how can his supporters continue to do so?
The fact that he, Flynn, colluded with another country that does not have our best interest at heart and either conveniently forgot or flat out lied about it seems, in my opinion, much more dangerous to our national security than someone pointing out that he did it. An open society has inherent dangers but I would rather live in one where people like this and Snowden point out the underhandedness of our government officials rather than let them continue to get away with it.
He is surprising no one.
No one is suprised either that his deluded supporters see no problem with that fact that a person, who is not legally authorised to do so, has contact with a foreign government with the purpose of intentionally undermining official foreign policy, as long as that person is “on their side”.
I’m actually surprised. I thought all my predictions were rooted in pessimism,or ignorance.
I knew he’d have some head scratching moments, but it’s been a complete dumpster fire.
the Obama administration did not fuck with Flynn. The national security protocols for tracking communications is bipartisan and for a very fucking good reason and has been in place for a long time. I know this because I do know people with security access. We are scientists and we won’t be silenced. The dumpster fire… you have no idea… but you will see on the 22 april.
@Cruiser But this is exactly why Trump was an impossible choice, regardless of what he promises. The very promises themselves are an indisputable indication that he hasn’t a clue as to their feasibility, let alone their achievement. What the weeks since the election demonstrate is that he can’t arrive at meaningful actions toward fulfilling those promises, simply because he can’t roll out of bed without confronting another fkup. Intentions, good or evil, are meaningless when ignorance is this profound. He’s like a blind man stumbling through a cow pasture. He is simply unable to avoid “stepping in it”.
No, he’s as funny as I knew he would be.
I’m not surprised at what has happened, but I am surprised at how quickly it is happening. It took about half a day with him in office to send me from “open minded and trying to cling to some hope” to “panic induced meltdown.” But, all in all, I am not surprised. At this point, now that the initial startle has passed, I find almost all of it to be frighteningly predictable.
I had no doubts about how bad it will be after day one, when they came out bald-faced lying about the inauguration attendance.
My expectations could hardly have been lower, but making and entrance with North Korea-worthy propaganda showed they weren’t going to make the least attempt at honesty or integrity.
^I imagine that if Trump and Kim took a personality test,they’d have similar results.
@Cruiser is right about one thing. The scandal goes beyond Flynn. Trump was warned that Flynn might be lying about his contacts with the Russians, but Trump did nothing. Why? Why did he not fire Flynn after it was established that he was lying to Pence. Did Trump put Flynn up to the Russian contacts, sneaking behind Obama and promising to eliminate the sanctions? Is there a link to the DNC hacking? And how did the VP get involved? Isn’t VP supposed to be a ceremonial office? Just how much of Trump’s work is Pence doing? Pay close attention. This is far from over.
The gaffes and screw ups are rendering governance beyond problematic. Flynn’s resignation is the tripwire on the Russia thing, and no waving off from the tiny hands about rumors and gossip from a dishonest press is going to deflect full scale deep investigations into Trump’s doings. And that will surely be the end. Meanwhile, the country must chug along on automatic bureaucratic pilot.
@MrGrimm888 I took the Political Compass test based on my perceptions of Trump and Kims Personality and got:
Trump:
Economic Left/Right: 6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.36
Kim:
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 7.54
Not surprised at all.
I am constantly surprised at how otherwise seemingly well educated and intelligent people seem to think it was a good idea electing him in the first place.
@rojo I am in no way trying to justify what Flynn did. Shit like this happens on a daily basis and my only problem that leaks are being shared with the press in unprecedented proportions. These types of eavesdropping is usually very secure and very few people in the NSA or FBI know about this. So who ever leaked it was way up the chain of a select top secret operatives. Disclosing Flynn’s name and the Russian Ambassadors identity just exposed top secret methods and sources.
Many things have and will happen as a result. The source of the leak will be discovered and that as they say “burns the source” and compromised that intelligence gathering option. As I pointed out foreign diplomats will question the reliability of confidential conversations. There were a bunch of other highly confidential phone calls between Trump and presidents of other countries that were tapped and the nature of the conversations is potentially exposed now. How the hell can anyone not be upset by what is going on here? How can Trump and his cabinet be expected to conduct very sensitive discussions with friendly and even unfriendly leaders if their conversations are leaked to the Washington Post?
@stanleybmanly I would disagree with your impossible choice analogy. This is not Trump’s doing it is someone in Obama’s previous administration pulling these strings with these leaks. And how quickly you forget all of the lies and cover up’s over Hillary’s email server scandal fiasco. Talk about impossible choices…
I have a hard time believing that any diplomat who has been at the job for any length of time or his or her staff that have probably been at it even longer does not consider every phone conversation and most office conversations as being tapped particularly by those in whose country you are dwelling.
I do not see how security has been compromised by these revelations of wrongdoing. Flynn was a known entity, as was the ambassador, no surprises or secrets there. I would hazard a guess that there are more conversations with different people that we do not know about. You may have a point about burning the source but compromise the gathering options? I don’t think so.
Potential exposure of Trump/Foreign Leader conversations. I am, personally, all for it regardless of who is in power. The more open our government, the more I trust it. The less openness, the more corruption becomes both an option and a way of life.
@Cruiser wrote that the leaks are being shared with the press in large quantities.
That’s worth pursuing. Why is this happening? I can think of several (mostly related) reasons:
- the new white house crowd are utterly incompetent to the point of being dangerous to the nation
- the new white house crowd has no experience in Washington, legislation, politics, or democratic (small d) societies
- the new white house crowd comes from business, where power and shouting loudest usually wins. In politics, it’s about consensus
- the new white house crowd feels they are entitled to things that they don’t deserve. Trust is earned, not taken.
- the career people – the ones who have served the government for years – are genuinely concerned about what will happen as a result of the Trump damage.
All of these provide ample reasons for leaking.
Since Trump has put a gag order on the EPA for only one instance, I think leaks are the appropriate response to tyranny.
@elbanditoroso The one theory that is being bounced around is these leaks are at the hands of Obama administration employees that stayed on board and security personnel sympathetic to some push to undermine Trump to a point where impeachment is a viable option.
Heads already have started to roll as 5 days ago Cory Louie, chief information security officer for the White House’s Executive Office (an Obama appointee) was removed from his post. More are sure to follow.
@Cruiser – some indicia of proof would be useful.
But let’s say that’s true. If the Trump crew were competent, then there would be no real room (opportunity) for the leaks to be released. I believe in the idea that “nature abhors a vacuum”. In the absence of governance, something fills the void. In this case, “something” is leaks from those in the know.
Even if old Obama employees are stirring things up, that doesn’t excuse Trump’s travel ban fuckup, it doesn’t excuse Trump’s twittering away foreign relations, and so on.
Honestly, I figured we’d be at war by now. The total chaos I expected has yet to come. Yet.
^^ ....and slowly, ever so slowly, the hands tightened their grip around the neck of Lady Liberty and began choking the ever-loving shit out of her with greater intensity as the days wore on.”
One theory floating around lately it that these leaks are coming from the Russians themselves in a plan to embarrass the entire Trump Administration and get them to simultaneously commit mass suicide thus leaving the United States rudderless, foundering in international waters without capable leadership
actually, I just floated this theory but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good one
did you notice how I tied “floated” in with “rudderless” “foundering” and “international waters” to develop a nautical theme?
B O H I C A
Bend Over Here It Comes Again !
There will be more chaos because Trump said and is acting UNPREDICATABLE.
seriously,,,, if this keeps going like this… I can see no point in living here.
@cazzie Agree, except that some of us are living here so we are stuck with this mess.
I mean the planet… so… there is that.
It kind of makes me sick. Like, literally sick to my stomach. I do take some comfort knowing that the world is hitting him where it counts…..on his tiny hands and his tiny dick and on his big fat ego.
@cazzie I agree. I think the whole world is in danger.
@Cruiser The leak didn’t reveal anything the Russians weren’t already well aware of. Flynn compromised himself and left himself open to blackmail by the Russians who could have threatened to expose his dealings with them at any time. Flynn was the National Security Adviser for heaven’s sake, if you are really concerned for America’s security this is a major problem that needed sorting out fast and not swept under the White House carpet. The question now is how high up the chain of command does this go? Did Flynn act alone? Personally, I think that is very unlikely.
I personally have mostly lost faith in way more than just gov’t. People have no clue how precariously perched we are in relation to our infrastructure. Trump administration is not really something I’m that deeply concerned about.
Obama fired Flynn at one point for being an incompetent manager.
Latest is that he fired him again @Dutchess_III at least according to NPR.
So, was the White House staff lying earlier when they said he quit on his own accord or are they lying now? It has to be one or the other. could be both, but not neither
This new revelation (he was fired) begs the question will Mr. Flynn go quietly off into the night or does he come out swinging? I guess it depends on exactly what the circumstances that led up to his phone session were and how pissed off he is at his former boss.
Being fired and resigning an untenable position are barely different. I wouldn’t waste a thought on exactly which happened.
Also, as far as “coming out swinging”, there’s really no point now. He’s not getting back in.
Flynn can write a book and make some money. He can return to his paid gig with RT.com (Russian state media), they’ll be happy to bring him back. He’ll probably do both.
@elbanditoroso I will provide a link to the article I am using as a non-liberal (reasoned) perspective behind my comments and written by the commentator I heard on the radio this morning.
As far as competence, I would be the second to attack competence here if I felt it was behind this issue going full blown. According to this article I referenced this leak could have only occurred by one or more of the very national security team entrusted to provide the security our President and Cabinet needs to communicate with world leaders. We as a Nation are now kinda fucked when the very people providing security leak this kind of information to the press.
This is a very serious issue and I can guarantee someone or two will be going to jail for a long time over this one. I am sure we will see a whole other side of Trump when they catch those responsible for this leak.
@Call_Me_Jay If Trump were in the same position, he would take down as many others as he could; he seems to have that vindictive streak. I was wondering if the people he hired had the same quality.
@Cruiser we as a nation are also fucked when the ostensible commander in chief does not believe his own security agencies in the first place. Loyalty has to go both ways. Don’t you agree?
@flutherother At the time of the phone call Flynn was a US citizen and not yet sworn is as National Security Advisor. Don’t conflate the two as it is an important distinction in the nature of this event. As a US citizen National Security protocol demands the identity of any US citizen involved in communications be kept secret and confidential and why this is such a big deal. This is a MAJOR breach of National Security protocol.
@Cruiser That’s the point, as a US citizen Flynn had no business speaking with the Russian ambassador. As far as I am aware it is not only wrong it is also illegal. The American public would have been kept in the dark about this were it not for the leak but the Russians obviously would know all about it. Flynn may have been a simple US citizen when he spoke with the Russians but he was soon to be appointed National Security Advisor which makes the contact much more serious. Did Flynn do this without Trump’s knowledge? I don’t think so.
Flynn made the calls in his role as soon-to-be National Security Advisor. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous. He was not acting as a private citizen. He said so, the White House says so.
And regardless, a citizen doesn’t have guaranteed privacy to speak to foreign agents.
As @jwalt spelled out up above, the FBI can ask the FISA (FISC, same thing) court for a warrant, and from what we know they are almost always granted.
Flynn was apparently working to undermine the US government’s foreign policy. It’s a serious crime and borders on treason, even if you cheer for it when Democrats are in power.
@flutherother I disagree. He was the future National Security Advisor and I do not see a problem with him setting the table with his future partners in his role. Much in the same way that from the moment Trump was elected he took many phone calls and meeting in the Trump Tower with foreign dignitaries months before he was sworn in.
@Call_Me_Jay Can you provide a credible source for your comment?? Or is this simply your opinion? Say “apparently” implies a factual basis.
“Flynn was apparently working to undermine the US government’s foreign policy.”
@Cruiser Maybe, but he was also discussing sanctions with the Russian ambassador which he shouldn’t have been. Susan Rice was National Security Adviser at the time, not Flynn.
The US expelled 35 Russians and announced new sanctions December 29.
Flynn then spoke to the ambassador several times that day.
Putin then announced there would be no Russian response to expulsions and sanctions.
The implication is Flynn waved off the Russians, to wait for a better deal with Trump.
Then Flynn and Spicer and Pence denied the talk of sanctions, and said there was only one call.
Then they backed away, admitting more and more, until they let Flynn go.
They don’t deny the sanction talk anymore. They say Flynn had to go for leading them to lie about the calls.
Timeline here with links to original reporting. White House Spokesman Changes the Story on Flynn’s Calls to Russian Ambassador
@Call_Me_Jay I see your point as there definitely was a flag on the field because of Flynn’s call and can see how it would be interpreted as a deliberate attempt to undermine Obama’s sanctions. We don’t know the exact details of the discussion to know if it was a 5 yard or 15 yard penalty.
Why the big hurry to reassure the Russians about sanctions? The congressional committees that are looking into allegations of Russian hacking have not even reported yet and Russia’s military actions in the Ukraine and in Syria have hardly been in the best interests of the west. Why is the usually combative Trump so conciliatory when it comes to Russia? To my mind there is something very fishy about all this.
@flutherother From my view in the cheap seats, Trump got a lot of carry with the voters on him tooting his vote me President and I will show the Russians how to make real deals. By the virtue that Trumps tweets on Putin/Russia have all but dried up since this story of Flynn was first reported…my take is Trump is cooling his jets on Russia after his inauguration and getting the dose of reality/full story on Putin. I predicted this would happen.
@Cruiser This is all a distraction, as usual by the Trump camp, so no one is focused on Russia testing cruise missiles (in violation of agreements) and supporting Ukraine rebel artillery.
By the way, I am no expert on the law, but there are restrictions on Flynn’s behavior as a retired General. He was not “just a private citizen.”
No, I am not amazed, however, I am amazed at how strongly people are sticking together against his bigotry.
It’s all so fucked up. Any bets on how long he’ll last?
That looks like a good question that merits its own thread. If you don’t ask it, I might.
I’m a figuring we’ll last 3 years and he’ll last 4. ~ ~ ~
@zenvelo Not sure about the restrictions a retired General would have, but my sister is now a retired Colonel from the Air Force since last September and all I hear about is how hard it is for her to adjust to being a mere civilian now. The only restriction I have heard is tendering in your issued sidearm.
@Cruiser I think you (like Trump) don’t realize the quicksand Trump is in behind this Flynn thing. When you look at the events and the order in which they occur, it’s hard to see how the Donald’s gonna wiggle out of this one.
1.Dec. 29: Obama announces sanctions against Russia for meddling in U.S. elections. The sanctions include the expulsion of 35 Russian “diplomats” from U.S. soil. Almost immediately, Putin, his press secretary, and the Russian foreign minister announce separately that Russia will reciprocate and plans to announce the following day (Friday, Dec. 30) the names of the 35 Americans to be expelled from Russia.
2. Dec. 30: Flynn has his chats with the Russian diplomat.
3. Dec. 31: Putin declares that unlike his U.S. counterparts, he will not further antagonize relations, but wait instead to deal favorably with a Trump administration. Upon receipt of the news, Trump declares Putin to be smart and compliments him lavishly on being “so smart”.
Now this being the sequence of events, we are to assume that a man as sharp and experienced as Flynn took it upon himself to hobnob with a high level Russian ambassador that any fool would assume is being intensely surveilled and monitored.
Trump’s supporters have reached an almost religious love,and trust in him.
Trump could kill their families in front of them and tweet about it, and they would just think it was Obama in a Trump mask “trying to undermine Trump.”
As I’ve said before, the person working hardest to “undermine” Trump,is Trump himself…
Nobody is slandering him. He is just being himself,and he is a scumbag.
No. Sadly I am not amazed. What is happening was quite predictable. Trump wasn’t pretending to be something he isn’t before he was elected. What you (we – the world) have, is what he presented before the election. As to why his supporters are still supporting him, denial? Ignorance? Or perhaps what they see happening is what they wanted? As sad as that thought may be for rational observers.
All I keep thinking is, imagine if Obama or Hillary had this Flynn fiasco going on? Just change the person and suddenly the Republicans would be insane about it. Democrats are guilty of things like that too, hypocrisy, but this particular fiasco, because it’s RUSSIA, Republicans would be beside themselves.
@JLeslie – hypocrisy and inconsistency is a hallmark of the Republican Party and has been since the days of Richard Nixon.
Oh, man, I can just imagine the outrage if
a Democratic president appointed his own children as his advisers
a Democratic president filled a cabinet seat with the head of a leftist newspaper
a Democratic president had a meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister about national security and North Korea in front of paying guests at his resort
a Democratic president continued to use an unsecured android phone after taking office
the national security adviser to a Democratic president promulgated fallacious rumors about a child-sex ring run by a Republican presidential opponent (remember Michael Flynn’s tweet?)
the national security adviser to a Democratic president was found to have lied about colluding with the Russians
a White House adviser for a Democratic president used her position to publicly endorse the brand of the president’s daughter
But, because it is a Republican administration that’s doing all these things, Republican voters will, instead, focus on the way that Flynn’s phone calls were leaked, rather than the acts of treason his phone calls reveal; blame the previous administration for the current one’s misdeeds, despite there being no evidence that Obama and his staff had anything to do with it; and deflect attention from this scandal by bringing up Hillary Clinton’s fucking emails—ignoring the fact that Trump is using a private email server, you know, doing the thing that Trump supporters have been chanting “lock her up” over all this time.
The double standard is just unreal.
@LuckyGuy that is a shocking thing to say, but he’s probably not wrong.
@LuckyGuy . Truth is stranger than fiction huh….
Wow, this really is an interesting read. Kinda like reading about ‘Chicken Little’. The soon-to-be National Security Advisor spoke with foreign dignitaries, So what. Nobody here has any idea what was said so you assume it was colluding with the enemy, Treasonous, I think some said. Contact between foreign dignitaries is not uncommon such as ” Michael McFaul, who served as U.S. ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration, said that he was in Moscow meeting with officials in the weeks leading up to Obama’s 2008 election win”. But of course it is fun to pretend it’s never happened before if you intention is to undermine the current administration. The logan Act (1799) has never been prosecuted and the FBI has already said they will not pursue any charges. Because nothing untoward happened. Putin didn’t try to change the sanction because they were put in place by a regime that only had three weeks left in power. In fact the sanctions were not put in place to accomplish any real change in behavior on Putin’s part but rather as another landmine left to try and cripple the Trump administration. Obama had tried to improve relations with Putin by removing the missile defense in Poland, then the Stupid reset button and failed miserably. Obama knew that Trump was going to try to improve relations so he put those stupid sanctions in place to piss off Putin. Does anybody really believe the sanctions will have any impact on Putin’s behavior? It was just another screw-you, left behind to make Trump’s plans more difficult.
As for Flynn, he fell into the trap set by the democrats. For that he was fired. No laws broke nor subterfuge, except by the Obama administration. Trump needs his cabinet in place and once that happens there will be much less for the democrats to scream about. I’m sure they’ll continue to scream but it will get harder. What Trump is doing is what he promised to do. What the democrats are doing is what I expected them to do, sabotage everything hoping that they can avoid any national successes. Pathetic.
^^ Just like the Republicans did to Obama during his entire 8 years as POTUS.
Only the Republicans didn’t have anyone remotely as capable of playing the fool. The Democrats are guaranteed perpetual opportunities. In fact there will never be another President so likely to render his opposition heroic.
@Jaxk, if Flynn did nothing wrong, why did he resign? In his resignation letter he admitted to misleading (lying to) the VP about his conversations with the Russian diplomat. Why would he feel the need to lie if he wasn’t breaking any laws?
So treason isn’t a crime. The criminal is whoever shines the light on the culprit?
Oh, right, I forgot he blamed the “fast pace of events” for his errors in accounting.
Yup. That seems legit.
@cinnamonk – He resigned because he was stupid enough to fall into the trap set by the democrats. They raised a shit storm and he said it wasn’t his fault. Trump therefore asked for his resignation. Nothing illegal just a major distraction.
@stanleybmanly – Of course treason is a crime and it was perpetrated by those that released the phone conversations with the Australia, Mexico, and the Russian Ambassador. They will be caught.
@Jaxk right, but why did he lie to the vice president? Or are the Democrats somehow responsible for that too.
And, do you also consider the people who leaked the information about Hillary’s private email server as perpetrators of treason?
Sure, shoot the messengers. ^^^ Typical.
Clearly it is only treason, if the opponent does it.
The fact that Flynn felt the necessity to resign is a big red flag. Innocent or not, no one has any doubt on Trump’s “ethical flexibility”. The rather glaring possibilty of Trump employing Flynn to back door Obama’s sanctions is not easily dismissed. And as has been pointed out, no one bothered to prosecute Deep Throat. I wonder why? If Trump is indeed comfortably in Putin’s back pocket, inquiring minds want to know.
@cinnamonk This is only my opinion but I believe Flynn lied to Pence to protect him…fall on the sword if you will. No one in the Cabinet knows the rules of eavesdropping more than Flynn. He probably felt confident to have the conversation with the Russian Ambassador knowing his identity was protected as the law requires American citizens ID remains secret. Only the most senior of agents in the spy agency have clearance to know the names of those involved in tapped phone calls. Someone even higher then them in the White House had to approve the disclosure/leak of the phone call and also authorize the “unmasking” of Flynn. As it stands it appears Flynn did nothing wrong during the call but the fact that he denied to Pence he discussed sanctions. that is what triggered his resignation. The leak could not be a more serious breach of classified security. But for Trump to investigate this leak would then risk exposing the agent and his methods and sources. IMO that would something I would like Trump to rethink. Find out who did and quietly let him out the back door no big media circus over this event any further.
@Cruiser do you also think that the leak exposing Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server (you know, the kind that Trump is using right now?) is also a most serious breach of classified security?
@Cruiser. I agree fully that Flynn lied to Pence to keep the VP out of the loop. It shields both Pence and whoever sent Flynn on the “mission”.
@cinnamonk You cannot in any way compare the 2. Hillary made her own bed by using an unsecured server that was hacked The DNC’s servers were hacked. They tried to hack the RNC but their security was more robust.
Flynn knew he was on the most secure phone system the Government has. So he knew there was no chance of outside interference. He got unmasked and leaked by the highest of authorities in the our National Security office. 2 entirely different situations of worlds apart magnitude.
This was not a WikiLeaks style dump….this was a high level criminal act that should result in prosecutions and jail time.
Personally, I do not think Flynn lied to Pence. I think Pence knew all about it and lied to the American public in attempt to cover for Flynn and his boss. just my two cents worth
@Cruiser The criminality of the leaker will certainly be dealt with one way or another. But this appears to be an example of lowering the shield on a crime of great significance, that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. And @rojo. If Trump did indeed put Flynn up to this, the smart approach would be to have no one but Flynn involved for purposes of deniability as are clearly now required.
As Cruiser says, Flynn is a good soldier, and is taking the fall. But I will never believe that he tried this on his own. The REALLY big flaw in the scheme, is that it didn’t occur to Knucklehead Don that the FBI would be monitoring high level Russian diplomats. I don’t know how in the world Flynn managed to miss that reality.
1)
Flynn lied to Pence to protect him
Trump knew. It’s unlikely Pence was out of the loop.
President Trump was told exactly what Flynn and the Russian ambassador discussed, Fox News reports
2)
As it stands it appears Flynn did nothing wrong during the call but the fact that he denied to Pence he discussed sanctions.
Discussing sanctions is what was wrong. Flynn was undermining US policy.
3)
Flynn knew he was on the most secure phone system the Government has.
He wasn’t on a government phone. He was not in the government.
4)
Hillary made her own bed by using an unsecured server that was hacked
Her email server wasn’t hacked.
What amazes me is the lie after lies he tells, apparently earnestly believing everyone is caught up in it.
It seems you cannot believe anything anyone in this administration says.
It’s the trickle down effect.
What amazes me is the lie after lies he tells
It’s exasperating but it’s not going to stop.
Here is a serious essay that explains that people like Trump aren’t liars – they’re bullshitters. They don’t care about the truth, they care about the affect they can make.
“On Bullshit” (2005), by philosopher Harry G. Frankfurt, is an essay that presents a theory of bullshit…
The bullshitter…is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all…He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
The whole essay is here
I heard he did a press conference today that turned into an exercise of witnessing an unstable, mad man trying to talk coherently.
I find it amusing that Obama’s name gets thrown into the “blame game” for this whole thing.
I’m waiting for the “blame game” to include FDR and Truman as the cause for the majority of voters not voting for him.
Or the aliens he is talking about are from Alpha Centauri, “believe me” ! !
The disaster is:
The loss of the EPA
Public schools (read vouchers for special interest group’s SPECIAL schools with limited enrollment)
Planned Parenthood (3% of their business is abortions)
National Parks (just resources for pumping oil and mining coal)
White House is a advertisement for Ivanka’s next release of clothes (imported from Bangladesh and China).
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