Question for Agnostics: If God doesn't exist, or is unknowable, then why is it important to so many people to participate in church/synagogue/religion ?

Why are you asking this of agnostics? Agnosticism is, by definition, the suspension of belief regarding the existence or non-existence of God. Agnostics say neither that God exists, nor that God doesn’t exist. Furthermore, the view that God is unknowable is not an agnostic view. It is a mystical theist view. So it looks like you just don’t know what you are talking about here.

“I’m not approaching this from Marx’s perspective that religion was to subjugate the masses—because most of us alive today have never been subjugated with religion by our leaders.”

Or perhaps they simply don’t realize the ways in which they have been subjugated. Subjugation is not always heavy handed. It can be done with a poisoned carrot rather than a sharpened stick. Why lock people up when you can convince them to put themselves in chains?

“Nor am I going with that its ignorance or superstition, because every doctor I know is quite strong in their Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, faith —as have been many scientists, astronauts, etc.”

Ignorance is not a binary phenomenon. One can be very knowledgeable in one area and completely ignorant in another. Furthermore, rationality is not something that you just do or do not have. It is something we must achieve through constant vigilance. Superstition can therefore infect anyone. And finally, it doesn’t really help your case that “many” scientists, astronauts, and so forth have been religious since (a) “many” is not the same as “most,” (b) a lot of the theistic scientists people point to came before we had the knowledge we have today, and (c) it’s just an appeal to popularity fallacy in any case.

“My question is, assuming that God doesn’t exist—why do so many altruistic endeavors take place through religion (such as church health centers and clinics, aid to the poor, missionary activity, etc etc.) —when such endeavors could easily take place WITHOUT belief in God (but seldom do)?”

There are a lot of misconceptions to clear up here. First of all, it is false to say that non-theists seldom engage in altruistic endeavors. Just because you are unaware of something doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Second, you are conflating religion with theism. Not all religions are theistic. So even if it were true that most altruistic endeavors were done through religion, it would not follow from this that belief in God had anything to do with it. Third, you are conflating fact with belief. Belief in God can exist even if God does not. So the fact that people might be motivated by their belief in God in no way constitutes evidence that God exists. All it tells us is that theism—whether true or false—can affect people’s behavior.

“And, why do so many adults who find God largely irrelevant (whether they believe in God or not)—still bring their children to church, even when they themselves do not participate much?”

Tradition and social pressure come to mind. A lot of people do things just for no other reason than because they grew up that way. And given how many people are just Christmas-and-Easter Christians anyway, it’s not that much of a sacrifice for people who just want to fit in or get their parents off their backs.

Because plenty of people are religious and they enjoy the communion.

The fact that many altruistic behaviors take place within the boundaries of a church makes you wonder if those same people would be altruistic without a church. Some people are convinced that the only reason they’re nice to others is because of God. If they didn’t have God they’d be assholes.

Someone Said: “Why are you asking this of agnostics? Agnosticism is, by definition, the suspension of belief regarding the existence or non-existence of God. Agnostics say neither that God exists, nor that God doesn’t exist. Furthermore, the view that God is unknowable is not an agnostic view. It is a mystical theist view. So it looks like you just don’t know what you are talking about here.”

I was with you to that last rude line, and stopped reading there. You obviously are intelligent, knowledgeable and have something to contribute to the discussion. So why do you see a need to insult me?

None of the charity organizations I support/am involved with are based in any sort of religion. Plenty of people can be altruistic/charitable without religion. In my experience, neither participation in religious rites nor knowledge of/belief in god/s is required for people to be good.

I don’t know if there are god/s and don’t care. My life moves smoothly without that knowledge. I’m curious about people and their belief systems but don’t indulge.

Perhaps things are different outside of the US where the facade of religion seems to be layered on top of so many things.

Very well expressed @SavoirFaire

Not sure if you were talking to me, but my post certainly wasn’t directed at you, @Yellowdog. I have actually had people tell me that if they didn’t believe in God they’d become rapists and thieves. Not sure why you took it personally. I have no idea if you are religious or not.

@Yellowdog “I was with you to that last rude line, and stopped reading there.”

I don’t think it’s rude to point out when people have misconceptions, and I honestly cannot understand how someone could read that line as rude. It certainly wasn’t intended that way. From where I’m sitting, it looks like you just didn’t want to confront your own ignorance and decided to grasp at any excuse you could find to avoid doing so. Perhaps you will interpret that observation rude as well. If so, I am sorry. But pointing out ignorance is the act of a friend—whether recognized as such or not.

@Dutchess_III He was talking to me.

My response was to SavoirFaire— I guess I’m the same way, however. My question itself may have come across as rude

I know it wasn’t personal and I took it that way. Apologies to you, SF. I was oversensitive. Excellent and detailed answer. Thanks.

From my way of looking at it, people are involved in religious activities because they believe there is a god, not because they don’t. I am certain there are a few folks who go “just in case” as a way of hedging their bets but people don’t go to church because god is unknowable or doesn’t exist. They go for personal edification mostly and because that is what has been drilled into them from early childhood for most of the remainder.

If we asked the same question from the opposite perspective:

If God exists, and is knowable, then why would it be important to so many people to participate in church/synagogue/religion? It still is confusing.

I am still not sure what you are getting at or what kind of discussion you are wanting.

I see. Sry.

I just know a lot of people who may assume there’s a God and that church is what you do as a result. They do a lot of good things through the church but they have very little knowledge or interest, I myself am a believer but have become rather ambivolent (sp?) over the years.

If there is no God, I am wondering—or if people don’t put much THOUGHT into the subject, why do they keep doing church?

I am having to leave—I’ll read SavoirFair (who is writing a response) and Dutchess but don’t have time to respond further. Sorry for those who I’ve annoyed and thanks for responding—I’ll be back in a few hours. Thanks to all.

@Yellowdog No problem, and no hard feelings. You’re not the first one to react to me this way, and I know that I can come off as blunt. I’m not good at being any other way, though, so thanks for bearing with me.

Well, a lot of it is pressure from the pastor and the congregation to conform. I haven’t always been an agnostic. But now that I am, and if I happen to find myself in a church, it’s amazing how much subtle, and not-so-subtle, pressure there is for people to conform. And don’t you dare express doubts or opinions of your own. Been there, done that, too.

Many people attend church functions simply out of social/cultural/family conventions, whether they believe, disbelieve or are simply ambivalent about the idea of God.

I’d say that if you look outside of American society, thing are rather different to what you describe ( and folks here who are American disagree anyway). In the U.K. Lethe majority are not religious. They don’t go to church. They don’t get married. Children are not taken to church. We are oaltogether much less godly. So on my opinion your premise is false. I believe that most religious behaviour is cultural in nature.

Had a similar discussion yesterday. I am a non-believer and consider myself a Spiritualist. I was raised in a strict Catholic family. I have not set foot in a Church for anything other than a wedding or a funeral. My wife is Jewish and has a large family of devout Jews but she was not devout so essentially our own family is non-religious but we still celebrate both our religious traditions mostly so our kids experience these traditions that were such a big part of our own upbringing. My boys born of a Jewish mother are considered to be Jewish. But since they were very little every night at bedtime we would say a prayer to God. At holiday mealtimes I will lead a prayer of thanks and remembrance at both Jewish and Catholic holidays. My boys are young adults now and it will be up to them to draw their own conclusions about their faith. That all said, there is one aspect of the whole church congregation thing and that is how the weekly mass bought together many in the community. I miss that part of the whole church thing. I think it is an important aspect of people having the opportunity to be together with their neighbors if even just for that hour. You don’t have to believe in God to appreciate the positive message in a sermon.

It’s a watering hole. A place to gather and meet one another.

Brian Moore’s novel “Catholics” is worth reading if this subject interests you. It is all about religious practice and faith. You can see a clip from the film version here

There are many reasons to be a member of a congregation. I’ve heard many non-believing small town midwesterners say that being a member of a specific congregation helped advancement at work and tbeir standing in the community. There is one right here on this site who admitted to this a few of years ago. I worked with an athiest Jewish woman, a fellow nurse, who hated her congregation and all the politics and posturing and status competition within it, but it was the only place that offered her free child care so she could work. I worked a hurricane disaster as a nurse on a Baptist sponsored DMAT team because it was the only one available to hook up with at the time. LOL. My fellow team members were surprised to find out that I wasn’t attached to the Baptists or any other religion. That was the first time I heard a person question my professional dedication because I wasn’t a Christian. I wanted to take them behind the surgical tent and kick the living out them. But nurses don’t do that. I knew a childless young couple who converted to Catholicism only because they believed it might help their chances to adopt a child. They weren’t interested in the Church; they wanted a child.

There are many reasons why non-believers find themselves in religious congregations and many times it has nothing to do with a search for a god or a philosophy.

Synagogues are full of Jews who don’t believe. Judaism is sort of unique, because it’s a religion and an ethnicity. I think from thousands of years of people hating us, enslaving us, and killing us, and not allowing us to say we aren’t Jewish if we are connected to Judaism in any way, we have decided, partly because we basically have no choice, to identify as Jews even if we are atheists.

Plus, the traditions are nice, and they are excuses to get together with family and friends.

Also, the churches often are very much the place to socialize. Churches can be part of a big complex with a school, gym classes, party room, all sorts of organized things. I went to a big dinner and fashion show at one of those huge Christian churches once, and 1,000 people were there. No one needs to know if you believe or not, but the Christian talk gets either annoying or sucks you in. They add in some of the Christian stuff in those events obviously.

Although some may disagree with me on this, the answer is very simple. People don’t want to die and just be dead. They want to go on living in some way and religion proposes just that in a afterlife.
Religions prey on this, to some degree, to get the money they need to get by on. (The PBS series, “The Western Tradition” covers this in the episode covering religions and how they functioned in the middle age’s world of monarchs, churches, and the lower classes.)

@kritiper I agree with you. The promise of an afterlife is near universal in all religions.

What Marx most famously said is that religion is the opiate of the masses. It just feels so darn good. When you are impoverished, uneducated and oppressed and have nothing to look forward to, religion can be a great comfort. Religion flourishes in the poorest countries. In industrialized nations, religion is declining. In the U.S., nearly a quarter of the adult population is religiously unaffiliated and their numbers are increasing. Among scientists the decline in religious belief is even more dramatic.

Community and purpose. I find that the most important part of my friends’ religious experiences is the sense of community and purpose that they receive from going to church. So often I get incredibly existential in the way I view life, basically what am I even doing alive? Religion quells that fear. It gives altruism a pedestal and comforts the masses. The sense of community is also key in understanding why so many participate in religious experiences. It is important to coexist with those around us, and a church setting teaches children not only to coexist but also that there is a community that is there for them. It provides a safe space. Plus, there’s something magical about gathering with those who are so different from you in order to call upon a higher power. Even being agnostic, I can see how important religion is in today’s society and how much potential good it has the power to bring to people across the world.

^^Very well said^^

I’m an atheist Jew. I still go to synagogue on occasion and we celebrate the holidays. I like the music and food.

But being an atheist Jew is not unusual. Most of the Jews I know are atheist.

“Why do so many altruistic endeavors take place through religion when such endeavors could easily take place WITHOUT belief in God?”

That is because many people who believe in God feel like they need to perform charity in order to look good for their God. I’m not saying that you do, just that many people do.

The Church is kind of like a business as well and is able to provide services through donations much easier than an individual agnostic or atheist. The Church has the money and authority to pull off large acts of charity like clinics and missionary activity, and many believers find that going through the Church for charity is the easiest route and looks the best.

Also, many people who do not believe in God perform charities and try to help the less privileged they just may find it more difficult if they are actively trying to avoid going through a Church to do it.

“Why do so many adults who find God largely irrelevant (whether they believe in God or not)—still bring their children to church, even when they themselves do not participate much?”

Many parents, believing or not, want to provide an educational experience for their children so that they may make the decision to believe or not. They may also have been raised going to church and enjoy the community and values that the church provides, or they enjoy some other aspect of the church that cannot be described. Parents want their children to have what they believe are good values and think that going to church may help.

Many non believers felt that they were never given a choice on what to believe as a child and so they want to allow their child to choose for themselves even if they were not able to.

Now, your main question:

“If God doesn’t exist, or is unknowable, then why is it important to so many people to participate in church/synagogue/religion?”

The world is a very diverse place with so many different belief systems that often clash. Just because one belief may be perceived as “right” or “correct” by an individual does not mean that others cannot have the freedom to choose what they believe is “right”. Just because so many people practice a religion does not mean that the religion is “correct” because it is a completely subjective and personal experience for each person.

Think about it in this hypothetical scenario:

-Most of the world believes that fish cannot die.

-The truth is that fish can die.

-That does not mean that the truth is changed because the majority thinks it is true.

So lets say that whether or not God exists is unknown. And let’s say that most people believe in God. That does not automatically prove that God exists. It only proves that most people have a belief in God.

I hope this addresses all of your questions logically. If anything seems off then by all means confront me. I would like to learn more and if you can bring anything new to the table it would be appreciated.

If God doesn’t exist, or is unknowable, then why is it important to so many people to participate in church/synagogue/religion ?

1. Because religion is not about knowing or belief in a god. That’s a common mistake.

2. Because they are conformists and people who want to belong to a group and/or score social obedience points and/or participate in community social events and/or obey social/religious expectations (and so avoid stigmas of not doing so) and/or get the better rate on their Catholic school tuition etc.

3. Religious people often are not agnostic.

… assuming that God doesn’t exist—why do so many altruistic endeavors take place through religion (such as church health centers and clinics, aid to the poor, missionary activity, etc etc.) —when such endeavors could easily take place WITHOUT belief in God (but seldom do) ?

1. It’s inaccurate that altruistic endeavors seldom take place without belief in God. That’s outrageous and offensive, and a stain on the backward-minded Christians that perpetuate such condescending self-centered nonsense.

2. Because most religious texts and philosophies espouse goodness.

3. Many people are also good, regardless of religious beliefs, and the texts give them social structures which lead to them acting on their goodness.

4. Even though most religious practitioners fail horribly to embody and consistently follow their good religious principles, they like to try to claim the moral high ground and avoid being called out on it, by doing conspicuous good deeds, or at least visibly tithing and letting others use their contributions to do good deeds that add to their image and diminish their guilt.

5. Some backward Christian thinking also gets tangled in guilt and self-flagellation, and leads to people trying to make up for that by being as Good™ as possible, or even competing with each other for how Good™ they have been, and/or to feel entitled to look down on others who haven’t.

why do so many adults who find God largely irrelevant (whether they believe in God or not)—still bring their children to church, even when they themselves do not participate much?

1. Because religious attendance is required by peer pressure, group/community inclusion, avoiding stigmatization, and provides networking opportunities, avoids negative behavior by nasty bigoted Christians, etc.

2. Some barely-Christians and even agnostics want to cover their bases, or not be responsible for their children’s souls burning in eternal torment of the God that is love because of their failing to send them to Church.

I was raised as a Lutheran. Fairly original/barebones version.

The basic rule was that if you can’t find God with you, you won’t find God in a building or through other people. Very rare church services and when our local church burned down , the congregation didn’t rebuild it for over 20 years – just met very occasionally at other churches or in congregation members’ homes. There would be meetings if someone requested one for a wedding/christening/funeral/whatever. I remember only a handful of meetings as a child.

I sampled a number of churches/faiths in my teens / 20’s. Liked the social part but usually not the person at the front talking – it seemed so wrong given my religious background. Took world religions classes in high school and studied Eastern religions in university. Grew out of a belief in god/gods/God as I examined answers to questions I asked.

A friend of the family married a Jewish woman and converted. I go to celebrations at their temple. I quite like it. It is the closest thing to my experience in our Lutheran church. Nothing between me and whatever – God/god/nothing. Readings in Hebrew and the cantors singing really sound/feel right to me. If I were to be active in any faith, it would be Judaism.

I’ve gone to our nearest little local church for Christmas Eve services and the like. I have no idea what denomination it is. I like the community singing part – and the cookies and hot cider <grins>

I go to religious settings for singing/cookies/community a few times a decade.

My social activism/charity life does not connect to belief/faith/non-belief.