Should the government add elements to, or alter our (air, food, whatever) without allowing citizens’ choice in the matter?

Intelligently, yes.

The main problem is that citizens (writ large) are stupid. Or at least ignorant and uncaring. As soon as the word would get out that ‘additive x’ (assuming it was scientifically vetted) would be added, you would have half the population shouting “nanny state” and half the population shouting “it’s good for you”.

We have just seen what happens when the citizens pick one of their own – an ignoramus like Trump.

I would much rather rely on the conclusions of experts than a vote of the uneducated citizen.

Mob rule is inherently dangerous.

I have some serious problems with this. It is, essentially, forced medical intervention onto our very persons. What else? Vaccines introduced through the water system? Getting enough sleep is important, accidents happen when people are sleep deprived, medical conditions worsen with lack of rest. Do we let the government “ameliorate” that as well (no, I’m not going to address logistics for these things, that’s another discussion.). Do we let the government restrict our food choices as well? Maybe they can introduce a “calming” agent into the air or water in high crime areas?
I know all that sounds extreme, they are “for example” scenarios to make the point.

Your question is really about ”...the power of the government” in a representative democracy.

The fluoride put in your water is not done without the consent of the governed. Decisions like that are done by the elected water district board at a public hearing. So no, “the government” can’t do it without the populace approving.

@canidmajor It isn’t “forced” if those elected approve it in a public hearing. Majority consent is a longstanding tenet to legitimize the actions of public agencies.

We elect the officials to act on our behalf. So we must trust that they will do what is best for the benefit of all.

OK, “forced” was a poor choice of words, and , yes, I understand that this information is technically available to all. My point is that I believe these things should be a more individual choice, not left up to the vote of elected officials who probably never mention such things in campaigns. I trust elected official “Chris” because they promise to address the health of my district by supporting more clinics. Nothing s mentioned of altering the water system. And if I don’t vote for “Chris” I am having to abide by their decision about my water.

Basically, I am for bodily autonomy when it doesn’t pose a threat to others.

We already have controversies about GMOs, sugar, vaccines and a variety of food additives. These things are normally controlled by regulation by various un-elected bureaucrats. Probably the Food and Drug administration. These bureaucrats whole purpose in life, their entire job is to make new regulations. If they don’t create new regulations, they have no job. So their incentive is clear, regulate. I am very reluctant to give them the right to dictate what I must or can’t have to eat/drink/breathe. For God’s sake let me live my life as I see fit.

I live in the USA. I am highly allergic to all products made from cows milk. However, I know people who are as allergic as I am, yet, they can drink unpasturized cows milk without negative effects.

In Europe, they sell raw milk from vending machines.http://www.ecowatch.com/europe-installs-raw-milk-vending-machines-while-u-s-rules-unpasteurize-1881874122.html

I’d like to try that milk to see if I could tolerate it too.

@Jaxk – I, for one, prefer that my peanut butter is not infected with e coli. And my chicken should not be from salmonella-bearing hens. And I like the fact that when I take my medicine, I know that the FDA has tested it for purity and effectiveness.

Somehow a regulation-free world seems unhealthy.

@elbanditoroso – Why must we work in absolutes, all or nothing. The old “if it’s worth doing, it’s worth over doing” doesn’t work. If you want chicken without salmonella your out of luck. You need to fully cook it to kill the salmonella. That’s why nobody eats chicken rare. Do you need the government to cook it for you or simply outlaw chicken?

^^ Excellent point,@Jaxk!

@Jaxk. This question is the obverse of the way the world actually works. The question is rarely about the government altering or adding anything. The controversy forced on us is about the assumed right of private entities to “alter our (air, food, whatever) without allowing citizens choice in the matter”. THAT is the way the world REALLY works, and it’s taken a long time for the recognition to arrive that the quickest road to profit is often at the expense of the public interest. The bandit is correct in that citizens (writ large) are stupid, and that stupidity is currently ramping up before our eyes. That stupidity is around a sort of willful ignorance of the history of the land we live in and why this burden of “oppressive” regulation now stifles the ambitions of the noble industries so committed to profit at any cost.

Your choice is called “elections”.

@snowberry Knock your socks off ! The Brush Hill farm was about ten minutes from where we use to live. The site has all the raw milk producers in the USA.

Hey, thanks!

@snowberry IMHO they should not! However, the reality is they have/do.

There is a little thing called, informed consent, and speaking on someone else’s behalf, as with election, violates that. Informed consent is an individual basis requirement for anything deemed medical, medicinal.
Eugenics was practiced in the US long before Hitler dabbled with it, and all around the world eugenics has had its turn. At times, involuntary sterilization has been done with forced surgical proceedures, but there are also documented cases of sterilization through faux flu shots, and other chemical means.

@Patty_Melt please site your documented cases. The only thing found about flu shots and sterilization was on Anti-Vaxer sites.

I am unable to post links, but if you google search “flu vaccine eugenics” you can find a variety of sources of varying reliability.

Creighton University has done a paper on the history of eugenics in the US, but focuses primarily on the fact that the practice was popularised in the US before the reign of Hitler.
Search – eugenics in America, State Fairs.

Also, check out the following, mix and match to see what you find.
Bill Gates
Rockefellor Foundation
Vaccine rumors

@Patty_Melt Those are all the Anti-Vaxer sites I talking about, for “flu vaccine eugenics”. Looking for CDC or some non conspiracy site.

Unrelated to the eugenics, but an example of how well we can be sucked in to vaccine acceptance, with catastrophic results, check into the disaster involved with the introduction of the polio vaccine.

Conspiracy is a real thing. We have laws to convict people of conspiracies. Don“t discount the validity of something just because it doesn’t have the government stamp of approval.
Like I said, there are sites of varying respectability.
I for one, know first hand of one government sanctioned sterilization program, no longer in use, but not publicized because the government denied, and closed in.

I really don’t care if you turn your nose up at me or not, to be quite honest.
I answered a question.
The facts are out there. So are rumors. Sometimes rumors are true, sometimes not.
Believe what you want. That is what helps you sleep at night.
Some people do want to know about things like risky programs, and secret government involvements. You don’t have to be one of those people. I am okay with it.
However, I don’t attack you for what you do or do not believe. It makes me wonder about your motivation when you attack what I believe, and/or know.

Okay I’m out ! I’m not turning my nose up I was asking for real documentation not site that sell Glocks, food stuffs in 5 gallon pails and underground shelters.

Only conspiracy sites and anti-vaxers.

There are numerous sites available, not just one or two. I can’t post links, or I would. I also listed a variety of ways to search. You simply chose to acknowledge only the parts to which you are opposed.

@Patty_Melt You can post links. Just go to your browser, and cut and paste the link. It’s not hard. Here, like this
http://sciencebasedmedicine.org/

Well, if you want to be crazy paranoid about shit, then stay ignorant and keep with that ‘it’s on the internet so it much be true’ mentality.

They put iodine in salt. They put iron in cereals and flour. They put vitamin D in milk. They put fluoride in water. They inoculate against diseases that killed and crippled. They give vitamin K shots to save babies. All of these things have improved our public health and increased our survival rate . Shame, because I’d like to see less stupid people. I wish they’d come up with an inoculation for that.

Also, @snowberry , there are NOT raw milk vending machines all over Europe. Italy is able to do this because of the farm’s location in relation to the vending machines. It wouldn’t work in the US because of logistics. They don’t do this in France. (in fact, the milk in France is ultra pasturised, long life milk in tetrapacks that don’t even need refrigeration.) They don’t do this in Sweden. They certainly don’t do this in Norway. In France, you can’t eat soft boiled eggs. In Norway, you can. It has to do with the natural occurrence of e-coli. (yes, natural)

Also, people do eat raw chicken. The Japanese serve it as sashimi. Here’s how they do it: http://www.swifty.com/lifestyle/35421/post-japan-has-figured-out-a-way-to-serve-raw-chicken-and-we-promise-its-safe-to-eat/#page=1

Learning about bacteria, fungus and viruses have made me less afraid and paranoid. You just have to respect the little buggers. They really are, as Mark Twain once wrote, God’s favorites.

@cazzie thanks for that link. Now that I think of it, my daughter in Japan knows all about sashimi.

In Deutschland, we also eat raw spiced mince.

@ragingloli We used to eat raw ‘ground round’ at home with raw onions. If you (mostly your butcher) know what you’re doing, like the chicken, you won’t get sick. It’s a Wisconsin thing, mostly likely from our German roots.

Some people are unclear on the concept of germ theory.