The deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history just happened. How should we talk about it?

I don’t even want to discuss it, it sickens me. Makes me want to renounce my citizenship and leave this God Forsaken country for a new start in a more sane nation. But I cant afford to relocate at my age. That’s all I care to say.

It is so horrible. And so horrible that Americans have become inured to it. No one needs to have automatic weapons or Kevlar vest piercing armor. Why is that legal?

Why should anyone have 10 rifles unless they are a licensed collector?

Apparently, this country does not have the will to insist on sane gun laws and so these deaths and woundings will continue.

I do want to know his motivation if it’s possible to know. My personal feeling is we need to make society more cooperative and more economically fair. We can’t just say someone is mentally ill, because I believe the environment is a huge factor in causing mental illness.

I don’t want to talk about gun control now, not immediately, but I do think this event will be used to try to change gun control laws in the near future.

@NomoreY_A Where would you move to? What country? What country do you think is safe?

My reaction to this news – because this is the first time that I’m hearing about it, from this thread – is approximately the same as the shooter’s brother. “Shocked, dismayed, dumbfounded” (it’s the second video in the Washington Post linked in the OP).

Who can say what madness might have driven this?

I do hate the thought of this as a “new record” for fatalities from a single shooting, because we all know what that means: records are made to be broken.

It would be easier for the right to talk about this if the shooter was either black, a Muslim, a ptsd iraqi vet, or a mexican drug dealer.
He isn’t. It appears he was just an asshole with a lot of guns.

I personally don’t think it changes anything for the gun control debate or the prevention debate. Given how much security, surveillance and police militarization, and the corruption in our government, I am actually seriously concerned that the reaction to prevent is an excuse for more power/control/fear escalation, and I don’t think it will really help, especially because the people who do these things tend to in part be driven by a sense of powerlessness – if you try to do increase control/power in an attempt to prevent use of violent force, it tends to frighten and provoke such people.

For this specific case, I’m more curious about the psychology and motivation involved.

And once again, the Republican rationale for refusing to even consider sane gun control laws, is proven to be a crock of shit. The “armed citizen”, who can prevent these things if only they can be armed to the teeth, never seems to prevent these tragedies. And in this case, everyone in the crowd could have been packing an Uzi, and it wouldn’t have done a damned bit of good against an unsuspected attack from a high rise building. Go back to the drawing board, conservatives.

My uncle lives in Vegas and was working at the festival (he is a sound guy) when it happened.

He made it out unscathed.

I could say a lot…but I won’t
I could make some flippant, sarcastic remark…but I won’t
There’s only one thing to say & it’s this, the ”right to bear arms” is an excuse used to hide the real truth. The actual reason you lot still live in the “wild west” is because Americans are essentially living in fear of each other, if the potential robber, attacker or home intruder has a fucking gun then hey, gimme half a dozen.
Put away your guns & put away your fear…be brave America!!

I’m so, so tired of this.

@janbb I think that expresses how I feel better than anything I’ve read so far.

@johnpowell good to hear

I woke up to this email. I figured it was just a fight and someone pulled a gun. Then I turn on the news and realized how wrong I was.

To me the debate should no longer be about the right to have as many guns as you want. Even more stringent and diligent background checks are probably a waste of time. Those things are equivalent to our laws restricting kids from cigarettes and booze. If the manufacture or sale of firearms in this country was forbidden TODAY on penalty of death, incidents such as the Vegas massacre would continue and probably increase in frequency for decades. The simple truth is that in this country it is probably just about as difficult for a deranged individual to lay hands on a gun as it is for a determined 9 year old to find a drink or a cigarette.

I feel horrible for the people in Vegas. It’s devastating.

This kind of crap never happened in Vegas when the “Good Fellas” were running town, they maintained order and protected their customers. Sam Giancana would roll over in his grave hearing this shit. Say what you will about The Mob, they had some good points.

There’s no point in discussing because it ain’t gonna stop. Not in our lifetime atleast.

If only there were a good man with an arsenal of assault rifles in a 32nd story window to stop the bad man with an arsenal of assault rifles in a 32nd story window from shooing people 200 meters away across the street…

Sorry. I’m exhausted by this nonsense. Utterly exhausted.

Well what I said was true. In the old Vegas, some asshole with an armory would never have been allowed to check in to a hotel anyway. How in the F did he get that crap up there? Even muggers who got caught attacking customers back in the day wound up in an alley with thier legs broken, never mind some asshole shooting 400 plus people. Mind boggling and inexcusable bull shit.

I’m just SO fucking sad, and tired of this shit.

1. If this isn’t the time to speak about gun control, when is? When I workedat a firearms counter, we had a guy come in and talk to us about selling guns, from wayyy up in the company. I asked him “what if a person wants to buy like 20 AR-15s, and 100,000 rounds of ammo?” His answer was “that’s great!” I said “no, I mean does someone look into that?” No. No waiting period. No extra attention. Not even a fucking phone call… I’m honestly surprised there aren’t more mass shootings…

2. Mental health care in this country is a joke.

3. If you want to kill yourself, just do it. Making other people’s lives miserable is a fucked up thing to do. Just blow your own head off.

4. We really can’t stop these things from happening. If the asshole drove a dump truck through the crowd, there may have been even more casualties. Then what? Make dump trucks illegal?

5. SO FUCKING FRUSTRATED.

6. My thoughts are with the victims, and their families.

7. I feel like we are ALL victims, when something like this happens.

8. If you see something, say something. Sadly, we have to make law enforcement aware of people we know or even love, if they are showing signs of preparing for something like this.

9. The media must stop glorifying the perpetrators of these acts. Attention is why some of these people do these things. Now we will see this guy’s picture, and hear about his reasons for months (if they ever find out why.) I understand the curiosity about motives, but there has to be a better way for the media to cover these events.

10. Try not to be upset with loved ones. You never know when you may not see them again.

11. We all know that this won’t be the last mass shooting, or killing spree…. That’s maybe the most pathetic part of all of this.

12. Now we get to watch our pathetic leaders try to make political gain from this tragedy. Bunch of fucking assholes…

13. More proof, to me, that there is no god. At least not one that loves us, or has any power to stop such things….

If there is a God who would allow this crap to happen, he’s a douchebag and not worth worshipping. As well worship Satan as that a hole.

Honestly, I am trying to figure out how to stop caring about stuff. My psyche is already under strain. I can’t do this anymore.

We will not talk about it. We will talk around it and around each other. Minds will not be changed, policies will not be changed and things will continue pretty much as they have. Sad to say, but true nonetheless.

honestly, @MrGrimm888, the guy would have had a really hard time running over 600 people with a dump truck.

“I am a big man
Yes I am
And I’ve got a big gun
Got me a big ole’ dick and I
I like to have fun
Held against your forehead
I’ll make you suck it
Maybe I’ll put a hole in your head
You know, just for the fuck of it
I can reduce you if I want
I can devour
I’m hard as fucking steel
And I’ve got the power
I’m every inch a man
And I’ll show you somehow
Me and my fucking gun
Nothing can stop me now”

In the face of this kind of horror, I sometimes feel my enthusiastic messages of hope to students are a lie.

I think that it’s another glorious day for the NRA and their membership drive.

Mass slaughters like this have two beneficiaries: the gun industry and the NRA.

My dad withdrew his membership in the NRA 25 years ago. Even back then he had seen that, whatever the NRA might have been at one time, the organization now only had one purpose – to ensure that the gun industry keeps churning a profit, no matter the damage.

A FB friend posted, “God, I know I’m not supposed to question, but why did this happen again?”
I said, “Why aren’t you supposed to question?” I wonder if I’ll get a response.

The guy had no political or religious motivations. Given his age, I am thinking medical.
It was carefully planned, and determinedly executed.
They believed he modified the guns himself to be fully auto.

They’ll make a big deal about him “illegally modifying” the guns, too.

It’s legal to sell semi-automatic weapons. It’s legal to sell the kit to make them fully automatic. It’s legal to sell them at the same time to the same person. This doesn’t trigger any kind of special warning.

It’s eye-rollingly absurd.

This is so awful. Those poor victims! It was exactly like shooting fish in a barrel.
Just heard a survivor say his friend got shot in the chest, and the friend stuck his finger in his own wound to stop the bleeding!

This where we have to ask ourself, are guns the problem, or are the residents of the United Sates of America the problem? This shit hasn’t happened in Australia since there was a mass shooting 20 years ago and they enacted sane laws regarding gun ownership. You can still have a gun there. But you need to show cause. Hotel dude would not pass that test.

So what is the fucking plan folks? Are guns bad or are Americans bad? Take your pick.. I decided to pick both.

One of the Trump/Breitbart spins might be, “Paddock was a left-wing, country-music-hating terrorist!”

Considering how many people were probably able to save themselves by fleeing from the sound of gunfire, I wonder if the NRA congressional tools will persist in pushing their bill to deregulate silencers.

Perhaps we shouldn’t talk about it at all.

I know what the gunshots sounded like. Like fire crackers popping.

How does a person get 19–20 guns into a hotel room, with no one in the hotel noticing, and Housekeeping presumably seeing the guns and not saying anything?

Something is very wrong with this narrative.

Take the guns apart and and put them in normal suitcases. Do one bag at a time. This is the least confusing part of the story.

And there are tons of gun shows in Vegas. I doubt anyone though anything of it.

Edit… And i would be super-fine with rolling the dice that the hotel thing is a anomaly. I really don’t want my baggage checked as I enter a hotel. Getting on a plane is bad enough. Don’t TSA my hotel.

Usually I get in on the anti-gun debate after these things happen, but Vegas is/was also my hometown. I still have dozens of friends and family who live there. All I’ve done today is worry and grieve. I’m not really in any mood for a debate because this hit close to home for me.

@jonsblond I was born in Vegas and lived there until I was 10, so I know what you mean. Any time it hits close to home, it feels more dire.

I definately prefer to leave politics off the table, and just focus on the suffering, and the heroics.
There were some amazing people doing brave things.

I just remembered. My best friend is from Vegas.

According to ABC news, he was firing for about 10 minutes. I wonder if anyone at the Mandalay heard the gunfire, because it seems if the police had received a call from there about it, they could have hit the scene before then.

I once called 911 when I heard what I thought could have been firecrackers, just in case it was shots fired. I’m sure I would have called if I was at the Mandalay and heard it.

Ten minutes seems like forever. I can’t imagine it.

The way they found him, the smoke from all the rapid fire set off the smoke detectors in his room.

I’m not shocked anymore. I wake up in the morning, turn the news on and see another mass shooting has taken place in the US. Then I read FB or whatever and see people saying ‘guns don’t kill, people kill’. Same old story – every time. In a few days, or weeks or if you are all lucky, months, it will happen again. Nothing changes.

Things do change.
Effed up as it was, civilians triaged, local citizens rushed there to take people to hospitals, young and old timed out reloads and took those moments to move toward safety. People are becoming aware, and getting better at meeting the challenge of such frightening occurances.

And, people not from the US, quit pointing fingers and turning up your noses. We are a large country, inhabited by a great variety of people, and some parts of that variety differ a great deal from other parts. Don’t try to draw direct comparisons.
We may boil and simmer, but we also have a great many loving, giving, compassionate citizens.
Anyone from the US too pansy assed to stay, go. Bon voyage.
I served this country with pride and dignity. When I die, I will become a part of the ground I love.

@Patty_Melt – if you’d like to contribute to the “Get Muad_Dib out of the country” fund, I do take PayPal.

@Patty_Melt, how can anyone be unaware? These events happen over and over again. And as for being better at managing such situations, you should be! The US should be the world leader and probably is. Is that a distinction you want? We are the best at dealing with mass shooting incidents perpetrated on innocent people by our own citizens. Really? That’s something to be proud of?

As to people from other countries turning their noses up. No. People from other countries are just flabbergasted that this keeps happening and that your current president has apparently just signed orders to make it okay for people with mental health issues to own guns. And that the previous president couldn’t do anything about gun ownership. We know not all US citizens are bad people. However, too many of you think having the right to own an automatic weapon is more important than protecting each other from those who would use such weapons to kill and maim your friends, family and neighbours. That’s just insane.

This has nothing to do with serving in the military. That’s an entirely different story.

This pansy ass would move out in a heartbeat if I had the funds. This racist, homophobic, gun loving country disgusts me.

I just got called ignorant, and was accused of spewing bullshit by a relative on FB for pointing out that as long as people in this country continue to love guns, the shootings will continue.

This was on a post about how many mass shootings there have been in the United States.

“When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.” No truer words were ever spoken, like it or not…
@jonsblond Ouch! You make it sound as though we’re all that way…

Good fucking Christ, that’s such a trite and overused phrase that’s only ever used to tap dance around the very real issue of gun violence in this country.

I’m focused on the victims and survivors.
Since this thread is all political, fuck it.
I wrote a Q about this but it was knocked back. I edited twice, and it is still not up. If it comes up, all the self absorbed, soap box speakers can just leave it be, as I will now do with this thread.

@kritiper Yeah, that’s what I’m doing.~

It’s too late. There are more guns in this country than people. It’s exactly the same situation as the opioid epidemic. It’s all about availability, and EVERYONE knows where to get a fix!

@Patty_Melt

Like it or not this is a political issue. One of the most serious political issues of our time. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.

What can be done to prevent such tragedies? I don’t see how the NRA benefits from this. If everybody at the concert had a rifle, they could not have done anything about a guy firing down on them from way high up. It is scary that there were no signs that the shooter would carry out such an act – no criminal record and no history of psychiatric disorder. His family members were completely surprised. @johnpowell mentions the gun control laws in Australia. It certainly seems to me like the only possible solution.

It seems as though if humankind reduces the amount of people on the planet by a factor of 14:1 that we will reduce the occurrence of mass killings by the same ratio. That’s a good thing, right?
If you put 2 rats (1 male,1 female) in a box and feed them, they will procreate and multiply. But when the box becomes full of rats, they will start killing each other. (Without guns, mind you.) So it would seem that, in our world, as it is now and as it gets worse, there are too many rats!!!
Clearly, the problem is not about guns. It’s about people!
“Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.” MORE true words!

So, how do we pass sensible gun laws that do not conflict with someones ability to own one? Particularly since no one in government even wants to start a discussion on the topic. Any time it is brought up someone shoots down the idea before it can even be discussed. pun intended

Can we as a country even come up with a definition of the word sensible that the majority can agree on?

I wonder if those who advocate for a mass reduction in the human populace ever consider helping the process along with themselves?

@kritiper – If the guy on the 32nd floor hadn’t had guns, he couldn’t have killed a person on the street.

@ elbanditoroso He could have broken the window and thrown the maid out.
@ Darth Algar Poor argument. Why treat a symptom when you can treat the disease??

Not sure who said this, but saw it on another forum:

“We should be talking about a society that breeds people who feel no attachment to those around them, one where we dehumanize people around us to the point where this is possible. We should be talking about a near global masculinity that favors violent reactions to everything. We can talk about guns, but we better not forget the social realities that bring men to do shit like this.”

This is one possible perspective on the “disease”. Gun control really seems sometimes like putting a band-aid on a sore. The body is still sick and the sores will keep appearing.

Are we really turning into a society of psychopaths, or is that guns make it possible for a small number to do considerable damage?

A small number are doing the damage. Millions are enabling them.

The only people who are against gun regulations are those who would be disallowed from owning a gun.
We need to think about that.

@kritiper

It’s not an argument, it’s a question. Mostly a rhetorical one, as I don’t honestly expect a straight answer.

Although I agree that gun control is not the only issue here, it was pointed out to me that gun control is the easiest place to start. And that’s true. By bringing up the other issues, my objective was not to distract, but to remind that gun control isn’t the only issue: it goes deeper. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address gun control. Look at this way: the opioid crisis is not just a result of the over-prescription of and easy availability of drugs, it’s also due to a societal malaise, especially in economically ravaged rural areas, that causes people to turn to drugs. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t start with treating addicts and getting the drugs out of these areas. You start there, then you move onto the deeper issues.

When the “cure” is impossible or will take decades to enact, treating the “symptoms” is better than doing nothing at all.

One can only presume that other countries in the world have the same amount of bitter, unstable or mentally ill people. And yet the United States has 25 times the amount of homicides than other countries. It would seem to follow that starting with reasonable gun regulations – background checks, licensing, safety locks, assault weapons bans – would reduce the number of homicides.

We didn’t ban alcohol (recently) or smoking but we did put safety precautions into place.

We should brace ourselves. Along with other glowing indicators on the sharp decline in collective cognition is the growing belief that we will be better off when everyone
is packin.

@janbb I wouldn’t get my hopes up. This is another of those issues defining our decline that exhibits a clear cut battle in the war on reason. The CDC has declared firearms homicides an epidemic. No one bothers to challenge or dispute this. Yet legislation is actually enacted forbidding any federal agency, including the CDC from gathering and compiling any statistics on the matter. Now WHAT is that about? And what sort of chance is there of preventing these incidents if the working hypothesis is “you don’t need to know”.

^^ Did I say I have any hopes up? If nothing happened after 20 school children were gunned down in their classrooms, nothing’s gonna change.

@Darth_Algar Here’s your honest answer: It wouldn’t help one iota. Silencing one voice of reason will not make the problem go away.

Sounds like a cop out to me. People think the human race is a plague to be eradicated but exempt themselves… I call bullshit.

^^ agreed.

If you don’t have any productive ideas, just say so. Let’s not say our very existence is the problem.

@Muad_Dib

Exactly.

I didn’t say I would be exempt. I just said I wouldn’t off myself to satisfy @Darth Algar.
If you have any ideas that aren’t as drastic, but provide a 100% solution, put ‘em out here!
WE ARE WAITING!!!
(And stop trying to put words in my mouth!)

Of course. Most of the human race needs to die, but not you of course. No, you’re the “voice of reason”.

I didn’t say that!

You literally said, “Silencing one voice of reason will not make the problem go away.”

It’s the growing apathy that makes it harder to live with a growing population. It is our lack of compassion, and empathy , combined with greed, intolerance, and petty hatred for one another that keeps us as a species down. It is instinctive, to look after, and prioritize your own interests. It was a key to moving your gene pool forward.
Now, the game has changed. We need to start thinking about how to coexist. There are plenty of resources for 7 billion of us. The problem is, nobody is willing to share, or use the resources in a responsible way. Worse, we still can’t live peacefully amongst each other. Bigotry, religious differences, economic status, and greed have and will continue to make this a volatile, and generally unsustainable planet.
We don’t have to be like ants necessarily, but it’s time to put real effort into making this a world worth living in. That means celebrating and learning about our differences, not letting them divide us. For instance, I’ve heard that Israeli, and Palestinian text books condone and perpetuate their hatred of each other. How will there ever be peace if they teach their children to be intolerant?

I’m not writing my fucking loser congressman over gun control. Mr. Graham vehemently opposes further gun control.

I’m not writing our president either. We know that’s a dead end.

What I can/will do, is treat people (all people ) with respect. I will encourage learning about other cultures. I will hug a stranger at a concert. I will tip my waiter. I will help the stranger struggling to push their car to the gas station. I will help up the homeless man laying in the rainy street because he can’t get up (done that before.) I will help the old lady at the store with her heavy cat litter bag. I won’t just kill insects for nothing. I won’t litter. I will pick up that beer can I see while fishing. I will call my mother once a week. I will stick up for a stranger being bullied. I will tell a sad woman, that she looks pretty today. I will hold a door for someone. I will pull a stranger from a burning vehicle, or help someone drowning. I won’t be an asshole for no reason. I will not support a war, but I will support the troops. I will recycle when I can. I will not rape, or murder people. I will not act like I’m better than others. I will not trash a public restroom. Etc…..

If we all were better people, it would be a better world.

I talked to a man once who said he was going to kill himself. He was on the way to jump off of the Cooper River Bridge. He said, “if just one person says ‘hello’ to me on the way, I won’t jump.” As fate would have it, a stranger said “how ya doin?” to him on the way. So, he didn’t kill himself. That small gesture made it a world he could live in. (I swear that’s a true story. )

Being kind to one another, or trying to be better than you were yesterday, is something that all of us can do…

Sorry for the rant.

Peace n love.

Oh @Muad Dib . Sorry, I meant to address your dump truck analogy comment earlier. Yes. He would have had trouble getting 500 casualties with a truck. In a soft target scenario, lots of people are injured by the crowd stampede, not just whatever weapon is being used, so it could still be pretty bad.
Still not a good example? What about 9/11? That was accomplished with utility knives…. Over 2,000 people were killed with planes. I just meant that if someone wants to kill a lot of people, they can. Yes. It’s easier with a automatic weapon, I agree….

I’m all about making it harder.

^Me too. But I wager that gun sales have risen sharply since the shooting. When I used to to work at a large sporting goods store, I worked in the hunting/fishing/camping department. Part of my job was working at the gun counter. Every time there’s a shooting, people start buying ARs, as many as possible. They’re all concerned that they will be made illegal. After Sandy Hook, we couldn’t keep assault rifles on the shelves. We got deliveries of them daily. Usually sold out in minutes. Couldn’t keep the ammo either. We had to put a limit on how many rounds you could buy, of certain calibers. I can’t guarantee my accuracy here, but I figure our store alone sold over 100 ARs a week, for about 3 months. We could have sold exponentially more, but didn’t have the supply. I wasn’t a fan of selling them, but it was how I payed the bills at the time.

There may be less demand this time, because Trump is in office. But I bet there has been a huge spike in sales.

It’s really weird how that works. Almost any other product doesn’t do well from bad PR like this. If a product kills lots of people, the manufacturer usually goes out of business. If a gun kills a lot of people, sales increase…

Let’s stop talking about this now.