Are we allowed to ask a question about why a longtime member was banned?

I was hoping to reach the mansion before I hit my expiration date.
I don’t see how that is possible with the mansion crumbling before my eyes.
Sigh.

There are three sides to every story…....

How is it anybody else’s business??? We don’t have a right to know why any one user was banned, and asking endless questions about it still doesn’t give us the right to invade someone’s privacy.
I get it. You’re curious. Too bad.

[Mod says] Yes. You can ask us directly. You can also discuss it in a thread, but without mentioning other users (banned or not) in a negative light. As this thread shows, that’s the difficult path.

The number of flags does not play a role in our decision to ban a user. Flags are not visibly counted by the system, and I doubt any of us are inclined to sift through a pile of emails for that purpose.

We do look at the evidence, though. We don’t ban anyone lightly (spammers and trolls excluded), and it happens rarely. We read through the threads, we talk about what’s going on, and then we send a message outlining the guidelines and how they’re being broken.

If that message falls on deaf ears, we wait a little while. If you ask the people doing the flagging, we probably wait way too long.

After that period (if the problem persists), we might start thinking about a suspension. Maybe even another one after that, and another.

At any point in this process, the user in question could choose to follow Fluther’s guidelines. When there’s two people involved, we try to help by asking both parties not to interact for a while. Sometimes this works well. At other times, even a series of suspensions and a long back-and-forth do not lead to any real change.

It’s frustrating and sad, especially with the knowledge that Fluther needs more users, not fewer. Banning people is my least favorite part of the job, by far.

^Respect.

@candidmajor there’s more than curiosity or nosiness involved with concerns over the fact that one of us can be “disappeared” in the same fashion as these questions regarding such vanishings. This is particulary unsettling in an environment where such executions are clandestine and therefore unknown to those left blissfully unaware. If I am to be executed, I don’t want to hear any bullshit justifying the secrecy of my death as a requirement to protect my privacy.

Hahahaha, @stanleybmanly, are you really likening being banned from a small, private Q&A site with clearly defined rules to being killed in the dead of night by some secret police? Many people are friends on Social Media with the people who are banned; preceding the banning warnings are given, usually suspensions happen, this is not some clandestine execution. <eyeroll>

@longgone, are the mods able to track the effect of the banning under discussion on community traffic?

@BellaB I’m not sure what you mean, would you mind rephrasing?

@canidmajor. It’s called a metaphor. And I stand by it (ignoring your insertion of the secret police). I’m not stating that the keepers aren’t entitled to determine who is evicted from the asylum. I just feel that its pretty chicken shit to toss one of us out “in the dark”.

@canidmajor You don’t seem to appreciate the experience of the non-involved regular users on the site when this happens. I tend to visit and read stuff and participate every day, and yet in a couple of recent examples of regular people being banned, I did not know they were banned until well after it happened, and I didn’t see the activity the banning was about. I also have no other contact with people on Fluther except through Fluther. It’s not terribly easy to research either, as the ban annoyingly removes their user page, and closed threads can’t be displayed on Fluther.

As for you ridiculing @stanleybmanly ‘s death metaphor, it seems relatively apt to me, particularly from the point of view of we who weren’t involved. They’re gone and there’s no sign of it at all until we go looking them up and then the site claims they don’t exist. Someone I thought of as part of this community, gone without knowing why.

In the recent case, there was a long positive history as well as whatever led to the ban. Their user page being hidden means we can’t see the positive history. I know there’s no real code budget here, but it seems like ideally their pages would still show, with a message about their account status and a public note from the mods explaining why. At least for non troll/spam accounts.

@longgone , do the moderators track the volume of (non-spam) traffic? do they compare the numbers for a couple of weeks before and after banning?

I actually do appreciate the experience of the non-involved regular users etc etc, because I have been that from time to time, but it’s still not our business unless the bannee makes it so. It is incumbent on the rest of us, if we care that much, to be in contact with the users we admire off-site. This is the price we pay for participating on an anonymous site. And yes, I find the death metaphor to be ridiculous because we are owed nothing by the site, it’s silly to think that there is some stupid conspiracy.

Both @jca and @muad_dib have offered, on other threads, to be in touch with users who want to know stuff. Fine, do that. Claiming great distress now, when one has made no effort beyond showing up to the site from time to time, is a bit specious.

@BellaB Ah. No, we don’t do that. Thank you for clarifying!

@Zaku That’s a problem I’ve been thinking about for a while. A user who cannot (or refuses to) follow Fluther guidelines is not a criminal, and of course there will always be someone who misses them. I’ve been there, too. I’m not sure how to solve it. The one thing I can offer is to contact us directly with questions about users who’ve disappeared. If both parties agree, I can see us linking people up via email in certain cases.

Thank you @longgone for your last and clear post. This recent incident of banning has pretty much followed the same procedures as previous instances of people being banned and I know the mods do not do it lightly or based on just one interchange but a pattern of behavior.

There will always be people who are sorry when someone is banned and miss their participation and people who don’t have difficulties with it. As @jca says, if you want a place to vent, it is best to do it in the Tidepool on Facebook or in pms to other users or to the mods.

I find this nitpicking and negativity more detrimental to the quality of Fluther than the occasional banning but I do understand that people are upset when a colleague is banned.

@canidmajor I keep tripping over your assertions that our treatment here is “none of our business”. That may well be the case. But since this place is as trivial as you claim, it may well be worth the effort to MAKE IT MY BUSINESS.

There may be 3 sides to every story, but in this case the only side that matters is the mod’s. It would be nice if they could clear things up so innocent people aren’t blamed (the “other side”) but I trust the mods are doing what is best for the community.

@stanleybmanly—did you see where @longgone said that you could PM a mod to find out more about the ban in question? We’re not being left in the dark. There’s no attempt at some sort of covered-up “vanishing.” The information just won’t be broadcast for all to see. You need to seek out the information if you want it.

You also don’t have to worry about being suddenly, unwittingly “disappeared.” As @longgone‘s post also laid out, nothing about a ban will happen suddenly, or lightly, or without your awareness of what guidelines you are breaking, or without many chances for you to make different choices.

And to reiterate what was said above, long time users are not banned based on one interchange solely.

Not “our” treatment here, @stanleybmanly, but the treatment of this or that individual who has probably been warned and/or suspended before for reasons we don’t know is not our business.

Go to the tidepool and you’ll see that I’m being blamed and at least two people think I need to be banned because I defended myself against personal attacks. ffs

Good points above. I will grudgingly calm down and go pout somewhere else.

I’ve found that PM’s will yield a virtual treasure trove of delightful dirt on some of the departed. ;-D

I wish I could find it, but one time, when this was being addressed, Auggie had a good post talking about why it wasn’t for public consumption. Something along the lines of: If you had been suspended three times, ignored repeated warnings to stop going off topic in General threads, ignored warnings to refrain from interacting with User X on threads, ignored warnings to stop PMing user Y, and had received numerous and ongoing complaints to the mod staff from a variety of other users about how mean you are (verified by thread flags), would you want that made public?

We rarely are objective if we feel we have been treated unjustly. I would likely not want it laid out baldly, chapter and verse, to the community.

I keep seeing this longtime member label being thrown around as if that renders the user as bulletproof or immune to censure. Far from it, because it can be confidently argued that a veteran of the site should know damn well what reasonable limitations of behaviour are set & therefore find no excuse for flaunting them on a regualr basis.
Not talking specifically about the user currently under discussion more a general point of view.

I get the privacy concerns, and I do tend to trust, respect, and appreciate the mods. Just trying to follow this one situation as a user takes a lot, so the work of the mods must be a huge and usually thankless task. However the mostly blind position of the users creates some confusing situations, as the users don’t see what’s going on except indirectly, and the relevant accounts and threads tend to vanish. Some have suggested the banned person could share what happened, but how if they’ve been banned? There isn’t even a list of mods or a way to see if someone is a mod AFAIK. This is all meant to be constructive, not a whine BTW.

It looks like @josie and perhaps some others were misled by this into thinking people get banned here for having non-majority opinions. I really don’t think that’s the case, but it’s interesting/concerning if that impression is out there.

@ucme Agreed… though when it’s a longtime user, and we can’t see much or what happened and they’re banned so I have no idea what they said or now have to say about it, all I know is there was a semi-known mostly-valued member of the community who (at first I didn’t even know was banned, but now I know) started annoying someone and got banned, apparently permanently. That makes me curious and when I find out there’s a petition about it, and a thread asserting it’s about cliquish censorship (even if I don’t expect that’s accurate), concerned and wanting to know more.

@Zaku, here ya go.

All i’m saying is that if someone consistently breaks fundamental rules that they have been warned about on more than one occasion, then them being a longtime member is a strike against them rather than something to be used as a reason not to ban.

For the record, the only reason I brought up “long-time member” in the deleted thread was that a long-time member is more likely to be well-known and thus will have more people curious about their departure than say, someone who was only here for a week and got banned. That’s all. Not implying that a long-time member is any less likely to break the rules.

@Brian1946 Same here. That’s the only way I know what’s going on around here.

Cute you felt the need to defend yourself but wasn’t even aware of your deleted question & so you were not part of the equation.

I am feeling very conflicted right now.
I hope someone has suggestions how Fluther can do some healing, and become a more cohesive community.

Right now, I feel more need than ever to have a place I can go for a sense of community, belonging, comfort, humor, sharing.
Fluther feels so divided right now.

Someone was banned after multiple suspensions. More than 3. Being banned is appropriate. Now there is a petition to have this person reinstated? Really?

1 person being banned shouldn’t cause fluther to get so riled up. The mansion is not crumbling.

The ban should stay in place.

The mansion is suffering more than a single banning.
I have witnessed a number of quakes in recent weeks.
The upset over this banning is only one thing I see tearing at Fluther.

@Patty_Melt Fluther has always bee a contentious little corner of the internet with ups and downs and upheavals. This is no different from other dramas IMHO.

Now – GET OFF MY LAWN!

@Patty_Melt I haven’t been around a lot. I’m not sure what else is going on.

@ucme Just clarifying since I was someone who mentioned “longtime member” more than once. Not a specific response to you, hence why I didn’t link my comment to your name.

@DominicY That’s fine but I did bring that particularity up hence the perceived connection

Apparently the moderators are already trying to figure out how to tell us to take our opinions and petitions and shove them, according to a message left in the Facebook group. So, there’s that.

So here’s what I find sucky with the current regimen. A member is found to have violated a rule. The member is notified privately, while any evidence of the alleged violation disappears. Repeated violations result in repetitions of the same process until at some point the offender is banished. The odds are that the bulk of us will not be aware of a single fact in the stages of this process, including the fact that one of us is missing. I’ve been told that we can contact the mods for an explanation, but clearly we are not permitted to discuss or disclose any information here in this our house, though we are allowed to pm one another unobstructed. The diligence of the mods regarding our privacy is both necessary and admirable, but there must be some remedy to the blindsiding aspects of this.

@stanleybmanly The “remedy”; I guess is not crossing the line multiple times and told don’t do it again, being put on “time out” multiple times, and crossing the line one more time.

It wasn’t “blindside” to the missing member. Just to the rest of the pool. It is not “blindside” to the person that crossed the line.

@Muad_Dib . the sharing of that information was disturbing.

I signed the petition. I suppose I was trying to say that the banned jelly never offended me, and I personally thought the pond was weaker without her. In no way am I questioning the reasons for dismissal, or the integrity of that process. I just wanted to be on record supporting the jelly I once knew. I don’t intend to cause any further stir.

I hope this all shakes out as best as it can, and I hope those of us left can live with the final decision.

As some know, I have a position of authority, and law enforcement IRL. I make similar decisions, as far as discipline, or arrest. I almost never go back on my decisions. If I were a mod, I would probably not overturn the ban.

I think the petition is a good way to express our feelings on the matter, but we need to be prepared to accept that this is a private site. Fluther is a privilege, not a right.

After all of this, I’m surprised that I wasn’t suspended or banned from some of my earliest posts… I have sense tried to play by the rules, and the dress code. If I’m banned one day, it’ll probably be my fault.

@MrGrimm888, ditto, everything you just said.
except the law enforcement stuff which is specific just to you.

^Right.

Does anyone want to offer alternatives when someone decides they just don’t need to follow the guidance around here? After multiple short suspensions, and lots of warnings, what’s the correct next step if not banning?

I guess I’m saying if you want to participate in the process, that needs to involve solutions, not just complaints.

“I give my permission to have all email communications with the mods relating to my suspensions and banning posted here for anyone that wishes to read them.”

-Laurie Bryson, aka Coloma
cc: The Fluther Moderation Team
cc: Publicly on the Fluther FB “Tidepool” Page

There are ways to suffer other than mental or physical illness.

I think sometimes lashing out comes from pain, with adults as well as with kids.

That is where my concern comes in.
Did we fail someone?

I care about rules, and civil disobediance. I get frustration in supporting rules.
I just don’t want to wonder if we let down someone in need, someone who over past years has given a lot of themselves.

That said, I point no fingers.

I can’t stress this any harder. This whole thing is about the mods. What people really aim at and really need to aim at is the mods’ policy. We need to propose some changes to the mods or at least understand what the mods are doing.

This has nothing to do with that affair involving that-person-who-got-banned and that-person-who-gets-angry-by-that-person-who-got-banned. So there’s no point in trying to bring up some past hurt that only makes people more blinded by anger and stray far away from the matter at hand.

@Mimishu1995 You’re being disingenuous here. The petition is for the reinstatement of a specific person who was banned. The policy is as it always was; a person gets warned by the mods, may get suspended and then get banned if their offending behavior doesn’t change. They can share information about their status with other people – usually by email or on FB if they are banned from here. There’s nothing new and mysterious going on.

Alrigh, for anyone who is still confused about the purpose of the petition, here’s an extract from the petition itself:

We respect the Fluther moderation team. We accept they sometimes need to make hard decisions. We acknowledge the moderation team are members who volunteer to keep Fluther tidy and that they must act as referees, jury and judges when members fight. However, we suggest their decision to ban Coloma was an unfair overreaction and we are appealing their decision and request Coloma’s reinstatement as a member.

Source

Here’s the Petition

“A personal attack” could be anything. Hell, how many times have I been modded for calling someone a cunt?

No one needs to be banned over this.

Anyone for cookies? I’m having a cookie right now.

I’m supposed to be on a diet… Trying to lose 30lbs of work-from-home stress

The Mafia has it all @Kardamom! Even booze and guns :D

You called me a bigot @Patty_Melt for not tolerating bigots. I never called you a name.

I’m having brownies.
Want one Mimi?

Sure thing! The Mafia needs energy to do jobs.

There’s chocolate chips in em too.

<Put everything in mouth>

Are they special brownies?

The Mafia gives protection to everyone who feeds them.

Not that kind of special.
Darn

I WANT SPECIAL BROWNIES PATTY!

Sorry! Papa John delivered these. You know where we get special ones.

Tell your Papa John to come here immediately! He has 5 minutes.

^Papa John’s is a pizza delivery place.

Where is our own cookieman when you need him?

@MrGrimm888
Not much longer, I guess. Godfather is pissed.

Since the banned member has given permission for the emails detailing why she was suspended to be shared with the community, that would seem to be the best course of action.

We often claim we care about this community, so of course, when one of our fold is banished, we want to know why and especially when that person has been here as long as the person under discussion has been.

While this is not specifically about the other person involved in the various arguments, they did both participate in that argument but only one has been punished. For the record, from what I’ve heard from the banned member, there were two suspensions and they related to the disagreeement with this other member and subsequent interactions. Again, both were involved in those interactions. Plus, there are other examples of people not getting on here and being asked to avoid each other and of that not happening. Neither party was banned in the past.

So, I think the community has a right to ask, why was this person banned? What crimes did she commit? Rules did she breach?

And really, the moderators should not be speaking to the other party in this banning privately. The remaining party said on Facebook that a mod had told her privately that the petition was bullshit and the mods were working out what they would tell the community. That’s just not right. The other member has now edited the record to remove this statement.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t know if I’m really allowed to chime in here. I’m in a weird limbo of never having really been a mod, but having had access to modding emails and shit as a part of my previous role as a technical contributer to the site.

All I wanna say is lay off JB. This happened for a lot of reasons. Goose lady got many many chances before the banhammer came down permanently. Behavior never changed after multiple warnings and temporary suspensions. If anything it got worse because each time she came back a large amount of her activity was centered around complaining about having been suspended and complaining about other users. Mods asked her and JB not to engage with each other and only one of them was not able to resist continuing to make jabs at the other after that which is probably part of why only one got banned. Notably there was a time where Goose sent us an email basically saying “Sorry I lost my cool, I will stop talking to her for real this time” and then literally minutes later she was on the attack again.

Further, there are other factors at play that have nothing to do with JB such as the “suicide thread” and a thread where a newbie got shat upon so badly that he left. It was a culmination of all these things that led to the banning imo.

Don’t take anything I’ve said here as an official statement on behalf of the mods because I’m not one. These are just my own observations from having been a little more privvy to what went on than your average user is. Also, the mods are doing their best, they are very thoughtful about these things and do not take them lightly at all, and it’s pretty shitty how much they get shat upon for doing a volunteer job.

Peace

For what it is worth, @Mariah, I do appreciate your viewpoint here, and thanks for your input.

So it does seem to be an accumulation of things, and not due to just one incident. The impression I got from some was that it was just the instance of the “new user” (it was apparently a former user under a new name) getting shat upon that led to her banning (and why I did not understand why everyone kept bringing up JB). Looking at that thread, it seems to be one where a number of users reacted negatively to the question, not just her. And it also seemed to be an instance of someone asking for advice about a personal situation and then not liking certain answers (which often happens when people ask for opinions about a personal problem). But since some of the responses were moderated, it was hard to judge it fully. Maybe she went further over the line than what can be read now.

Anyway, just my thoughts based on what I’ve read so far about this.

The suicide thread was me.

I took it upon myself to leave and cool down for a while and reassess my emotional state, so the mods better not DARE and make this decision about me.

Sorry I didn’t do a good job outlining which bits were my own personal commentary and which bits were relevant to the modding decision. Complaining is obviously not a bannable offense and was not a factor here that I know of. That was just me being salty and trying to express that in my own personal opinion, in recent months her contributions had begun to detract from the site more than add. Obviously many of y’all disagree which is why we have a petition.

Anyway at this point I’m just muddying the waters I think so I should probably leave it to the mods to explain themselves. I’ve probably just made their job harder. I was just getting sick of sitting here watching the dogpile on JB and not saying anything.

No, you should not go away.
You made it clear that your post was based on bits.
I feel everyone should put into words how they feel here.
Even if something gets posted which nobody else cares about, we all have some healing to do, some venting to do, some questions to be answered.

THAT guy? I called him a cunt, too. Maybe I picked a different word. I’d check, but it was modded.

@DominicY People bring up @jonsblond because:

1. Everything started from a thread where Coloma and her had an argument.
2. She showed up and said the petition was about her. So everyone had to respond.

I’d like to add that the petition, contrary to how @jonsblond interpreted it, does NOT call for @jonsblond to be banned! It says the both were involved and that it seems unfair to ban one person.

I signed the petition but as I’ve noted repeatedly elsewhere, I don’t think anyone but the mods and the banned person know the full situation about the ban. I don’t agree with the parts of the petition that make it sound like we are saying @jonsblond was an equal participant in the arguments. Not only do I not know the wholeness of it, but I much more sympathize with @jonsblond , who in the examples I have seen seems to have been just putting forth her position on sensitive personal subjects when the banned person posted in ways I would characterize as “vented unsolicited strong negative opinions” including that she felt the sharing was an imposition on other users, which I really don’t agree with at all. It does seem like obnoxious behavior which should probably stop.

My suggestion to lift the ban was based on not knowing the details (which I still don’t) and having the impression that the banned person would be able to be reasonable and abide by some agreements not to bother people so much. If that’s really been tried and really isn’t working, then I’d probably ban then too if I were a mod.

(But of course I’m not and don’t know. I am glad though to get more information on that situation, and also for the relatively open discussion about the site policy and so on.)

(And I did see that the mods are willing to give good answers to questions on such things if you ask them in a private message.)

ONCE AGAIN.

Here is the Petition.

Read it. It’s only 3 paragraphs long. NOWHERE does it say anything about banning anyone. It simply presents a case to re-instate Coloma’s membership to Fluther.

It’s hardly fair to ban someone who has never been suspended. The banned member was suspended for more than one incident. I’m not saying others did not deserve a suspension, but if we outright ban someone over one altercation then every Jellie who has ever received a suspension should have been banned too.

Now I’m going to get a grip and remember that Fluther is a fuckin’ website. There are much better ways to use my free time.

@tinyfaery Did someone propose banning someone who’d never been suspended?

A few people said only one was banned and the other one is still here. I assume that means they think the other party should not be here. But, hey, assumptions. Whatcha gonna do?

@tinyfaery Yeah, I see the easy confusion. Sadly that seems to be how @jonsblond read it too, but I and @Espiritus_Corvus were just (4 & 5 posts above this one) trying to make it clear that no one was suggesting that. (I hope.)

@tinyfaery, Nobody wants either one of them banned, but it’s not fair to only punish one. You’ve been in plenty of Fluther arguments and conflicts, should you be banned for breaching the peace?

We’re constantly reminded that if difference of opinion looks like it may turn ugly then we should act like adults & agree to disagree…sounds so simple & yet remains elusive to the ego driven, argumentative crowd pleasers…shame that.
I received a suspension a while back & was advised to reign it in a bit as a matter of course which I kinda did…if I can do it eh? :D

Thank you, @Mariah, for pointing out that it was way more than that one conflict between the two users.

And really, can we all appreciate the irony that someone who “hates drama” is generating so much right now? This is not the first time. Does anybody else remember her outrage and drama when someone asked a light-hearted question about roasting a goose a few years ago? Seems she only hates drama when it’s not about her.
Soooo laid back. <eyeroll>

The person who is banned did not think up the petition.

The person who is banned did not write the petition.

The person who is banned is not here to stir up any drama.

so this is why I seldom stray over into “meta”

Oh, please, @jca, the person who is banned is stirring up all sorts of drama on Facebook, whether or not they started the petition, and you can bet that the person who is banned is gleefully watching this thread. You can’t be so naive as to think otherwise. Champion them all you want, but don’t be naive.

JB’s been on there stirring shit as well, @canidmajor.

(Been lurking)

@jca, no, she hasn’t.

Guys, listen to yourselves.

She was, @Mama_Cakes.

I can’t spend my day arguing. Have a good Friday, everyone.

Well at least we know the mods are reading this thread…

It seems like most here, have stated their case. Some multiple times. I fail to see how continuing down this path is productive anymore.

I wanted that jelly back, because I care about this community. Everyone arguing about it is just making the situation worse.

Maybe everyone could step back from this for a bit. All these waves are disrupting the tranquility of the pond.

Has the pond ever been tranquil??? I must have been absent that day. :-D

I’m grateful for the petition, because it’s a rather clear indication of where many of us stand on the eviction of the goose whisperer. The strength of the response might well have been muted considerably were more of us aware of any history of the infractions involved. Be that as it may, I would have probably signed regardless of her history. All of us drag our flaws and neuroses with us onto fluther. Some of us are less adept at leashing our impulses. I vividly remember an episode where one of us deliberately tormented Coloma, and I was shocked at how quickly she came apart at the bare nudging of the “goose lever”. But this is verging on gossip. The bottom line is that she was a fixture here and most of us were adapted to any baggage accompanying her. Big goose or not, she’s OUR goose, and I want her back.

Exactly how long has she been gone?

Can I put in my two cents worth?

Maybe we can have a “flag day” where we flag and then insult everyone who says something that pisses us off or that we disagree with without repercussion.

Kinda like the Purge.

Thanks.

@rojo and then what would happen to the flags?

It would overload a small and dedicated mod team that works hard to try to keep things going here. That’s rather like suggesting we punish the less-than-minimum-wage servers by not tipping when ownership is responsible for the ultimate guidelines and rules.

@rojo Maybe we just need another user roast. We did that on one site I was a member of. It was a disaster. Led to death threats. Sometimes it’s better if we don’t say what we’re really thinking…

Cuz, you know, bringing down the site entirely will help so much. But you can bet at least one former member would be proud.

I agree 100% with @MrGrimm888‘s and @stanleybmanly‘s last posts above. No need to repeat a detailed description of the blatantly cruel “Cooked Goose” thread of three years ago.

I want her back, too, for the exact same reasons.

@Earthbound_Misfit I have received one verbal warning years ago when Auggie was here and I have never been suspended. If a member is suspended several times and then gets banned, well, that is how it works.

@DominicY yeah, you’re probably right. What was it Thumpers father said:

@canidmajor . Compared to most other places on the net, yes. Very tranquil.

And just why do you suppose that is, @MrGrimm888? Maybe because most of us try to keep it a civil and reasonable place, maybe because we have a quality mod team that takes the time and makes the effort to keep things running as smoothly as possible.

Hey guys just got out of the hospital where I wasn’t sure I was going to make it. Not wanting or asking for sympathy. I only have one thing to say: if you hate it here, leave. I like it so I’m staying.

The point I’ll raise just one more time, is that many of us are guilty of exactly the same infractions for which our banned members (not just the goose) were axed.

I prefer to speak of myself more than calling out other people on such matters, so I shall:

I deliberately baited Hypo for years. YEARS. I’m downright bitchy and mean a lot of the time. I’ve gone out of my way to time personal attacks so that the intended recipient would see them before they got modded.

I’ve never, ever, had a single time out. Not one. Why is that? I honestly don’t know. I know I’ve more than earned one or five.

If you think my contribution is not ban-worthy, than the goose’s shouldn’t be either.

Were you suspended multiple times, @Muad_Dib? Were you warned off interacting with someone and then did it again immediately? Or the other things @Mariah mentioned? Then, by all means, you should point out to the mods all these transgressions and ask them to treat you the same.

@Muad_Dib I love you. You know that. How can you say that the fact you have never received a verbal warning or a suspension means that others didn’t deserve it; especially, multiple times?
Why were you not upset about suspensions? Why is just now that you want to flout fluther guidelines?

You’re right, I’m not, @Earthbound_Misfit, I only speak from what others have told me, probably not a good idea.
And i know she would not ask for or write the petition, I did not say she had.

But there were more than those two suspensions, I remember others.

But @Mariah knows more than the rest of us on this thread, I would refer all to her first post for more detailed knowledge of all this.

And, just as an aside, I have said nothing about jonsblond here.

All the correspondence between the mods and Coloma is now open to the public with Coloma’s permission. Why speculate? Just ask to see it and decide for yourself. Count the suspensions. See for yourself that there was no warning. It’s all there. Just ask.

I like them both…..

I’ve asked her. Have you asked her? I love you @canidmajor, but I don’t understand why you are so hell bent on denying coloma a chance to have her case reconsidered. Why is that? Are you privy to more information, from a reliable source than anyone else?

All that is being asked for is that the mods reconsider their decision if, as demonstrated by the petition a number of members disagree with their original choice.

Nobody hates the mods. They’re an essential and valued part of this site. However, the active team is a very, very small representative group of our whole and if many of that whole disagree, they should get a hearing. It would appear the mods would rather ignore this thread than respond.

If people don’t want the banned user back, let them honestly say so. But don’t try to stop those who do want her back from expressing that desire and asking the mods to reconsider.

Mariah posted her opinion and said that.

I am not trying to stop anyone from doing anything. This is not about jonsblond, or petitions, or facebook. My position has been, all along, that maybe we don’t know everything, and maybe we should trust the mods to make decisions after deliberation. And maybe, in that stuff that we don’t know, there are things that she wouldn’t necessarily want revealed, although she may not remember it or realize it.That has been my position. Mod defense. I never looked on Fluther as some sort of democracy, I’m just glad it’s here and I can come and play.

Whether she comes back or not is not the issue I’ve been harping on, support for the mods, and the guidelines, and rules set down by the people who own and run the site is.

And, except for the ill-considered post about facebook, and my little irony post (which both, by the way, say nothing about keeping her away, although they may be a bit mean spirited), you will see, if you look, that I have only addressed this from the standpoint of perhaps trusting the mods, and the guidelines.

FWIW there is zero requirement that the mods must provide yet another written warning before a permanent ban after multiple suspensions have already occurred and there has still been no change in behavior. The suspension are the warnings. I don’t understand where this hoopla about she wasn’t warned is coming from.

I am not on the list for mod emails anymore at this point but I would be extremely surprised if they’re “ignoring” this thread. They are likely deliberating about how to talk to you guys about this issue without just stirring the shit pot some more. Like I said, they are very thoughtful and don’t take anything lightly. Just be patient they’ll show up.

The mods are representing the community. The community should be able to politely ask them to reconsider. And since the banned member has waived any right to privacy, they could share their emails to her to demonstrate the rightness of their decision.

I’d like to say I have absolute faith in governing bodies, and then I look at your president. I’m really not in favor of the notion that people should just take their bad medicine and shut up because they might upset those with the power. If the mods decision is so fair and valid, let them share it. The banned member has given them permission to share their unedited emails to her.

My position has been, all along, that maybe we don’t know everything…”

Well, maybe it’s about time we did. Permission has been given by Coloma to reveal. Let’s settle these speculations once and for all and stop bickering about stuff we really don’t know about. Coloma wants it. She isn’t here to speak for herself.

Let’s see the full correspondence. Here. Publicly.

I doubt the mods would appreciate being likened to 45. But whatever.
This is a private site, there is no “governing body” and they don’t owe us jack shit.

I’m just glad they haven’t left, although I wouldn’t blame them if they did.

At this point I don’t give a rats ass about colomas emails, I still think we don’t have any “rights” here, and that’s fine with me. I come here knowing it’s someone else’s house, I am free to leave at any time, they are free to boot me out at any time.
The internet is vast. There are other houses.

There is no written rule, but power should be wielded fairly, consistently and importantly, transparently. I have no doubt the mods made their decision in good faith, but they are human and fallible. And members of this community are asking them to reconsider their decision and if she is to remain banned to explain why. What rules did she break?

It’s really not that hard or extreme.

Maybe they are reconsidering. You don’t know they’re not.
You all could still win the day! The votes haven’t all been counted!

I’m tired and this all is stupid. I’m out.

There used to be 6 mods. Now there are 3.

I was offered the job when Auggie was still wielding her whip of widsom, but I said I wouldn’t do it unless I was paid.

They’re doing it for free, so while I don’t agree with every decision they’ve made, I appreciate and respect what they’ve done and what they’re doing.

I think the mods know things that we don’t, guys.

Wait, I just had an idea. If Coloma wants the emails published, why doesn’t she pass them on to @Espiritus_Corvus to copy here? It’s a bit of copy/paste effort, but it seems it would satisfy a bunch of people.

Someone mentioned tranquil waters, bugger that for a game of soldiers. Much prefer Perfect Storm to On Golden Pond.

Multiple suspensions and then a ban. I do not see how people think it is ok to just let the banned member back in. What about everyone else who was banned or suspended? Why is this obviously deserved ban now a problem? If it’s just because you like her, then you are biased and are being unfair to every other Jellie that has ever been on this site.

We all agree to follow the guidelines, but now you want to upend them. If it so important to you then leave fluther. The rest of us, who think the guidelines should actually mean something, should not have to be subject to the whims of a few. If the banned member is reinstated then those guidelines mean nothing. Why should anyone follow them?

I pull back so much so that I do not get into trouble. I leave threads and stay away, often. I suppose I should just stop controlling myself and let the real me out. They can’t ban me. That would be hypocritical. Let’s bring HC back. It’s not fair to him if she comes back. Let’s bring every banned member back.

My re-posting of the emails would be meaningless. We need this to come from the mods. Their postings will be checked for editing.

What are the mods afraid of? Why do they hesitate to put these speculations to an end?

A mod is literally typing a response right now. Chill.

I like this @Soubresaut. Have we met? :)

Why do you need this to come from the mods?

[Mod says]

We’ve been working on taking the mystery out of our procedures. There’ll be a meta thread about it sometime soon, but please try to be patient. We all have people and things to take care of, and there just isn’t time for two or three hours of additional moderation work in a random day. I’m on my honeymoon, and if I keep spending time on Fluther I’ll probably be divorced before I get back home.

Meanwhile, there still is the option to ask us for more information on all previous bannings via PM. Some people have done that, and I think it became clear (as it often does) that talking helps.

On disclosing email exchanges: A member can waive their own right to privacy, they cannot waive another user’s. In any case, the emails seem to be posted somewhere now, if I understand @Espiritus_Corvus correctly.

[Not as a mod]

Seeing this issue hurt the community makes me sad. I don’t have any quick solutions, but I hope we can all try to be as peaceful as possible.

1. This is not a democracy. We users do not get a vote. We are owed nothing. This site exists due to the kindness of the founders.

2. I agree with Tiny. Are we now going to demand all users who were banned be reinstated? If not, you’re being disingenuous.

3. I’ve had serious disagreements about moderation in the past and left for 19 months because of it. I only returned when Gail died. Still, I am grateful for the mods.

@Hawaii_Jake: To #2: No, because there are some bans that are, for sure, justified.

I second everything @Earthbound_Misfit said. There’s nothing wrong with some introspection and transparency from the site.

We all live with laws and rules in real life but we still question them and debate about them, right?

Oh, @longgone, congratulations on your honeymoon! Have lots of fun, and don’t worry about us! Arguments to the contrary, no one is likely to die if you don’t do as they say. Have a relaxing time!

GET OUT OF HERE AND GET BACK TO YOUR HONEYMOON AND POST PICTURES!!

@longgone Get back to your honeymoon but please – don’t post pictures! We know what problems that can cause. :-)

And thank you, Sweetie, for coming by and posting.

@jca Justified according to whose criteria? Obviously, you think the rules should not apply equally to all users.

@Hawaii_Jake: If all Jellies are not treated the same, then what’s justified?

Wait, WHAT?!
Honeymoon?!
Quit posting, and go TAKE that while it’s HOT!!!!!!!!!

I hear the Banned have their own mansion- they call it Big Pink. ;-p

Big Pink is one of the teasing nicknames I assigned my wife who is actually neither big nor pink. It’s actually a contraction of the exclamation which flew from my mouth when she debuted some bright pink flannel pajamas and asked my opinion. “You’re my big pink treasure.”

@Hawaii_Jake Not all Mods are created equal. Some people, especially ones who really do not have the time or inclination, should not volunteer to be Mods. I get that it takes time to be a Mod and that they are all volunteers, but the fact that they are volunteers, does not make them un-accountable for their own actions.

Not enough time to do all the modding that needs to be done? Quit your modding job and go back to your day job. I know that a Mod’s job is hard, but if you don’t have the time, please don’t volunteer to do it. Let someone else, who actually has time and the inclination to do all that it “should” entail, be a Mod.

Auggie was the perfect example of a Mod. She worked hard (full time as a Mod) and was fair to everyone, including those with whom she didn’t particularly care for. Auggie should be the standard for which all Mods strive. If you don’t have her ability, try harder. If you don’t think what Auggie did was all that important, don’t agree to be a Mod in the first place. If you have people who you like, and people who you really don’t like, or even despise, please do us all a favor and don’t volunteer to be a Mod.

Don’t try to “guess” what people mean. Repeat: do not try to guess what people mean, and do not Moderate them based upon what you guess. There are guidelines. We all get that. Either they matter or they don’t. Don’t moderate some people and not others. Don’t “guess” that certain Jellies “mean” something when they don’t. Be truthful as a moderator. Don’t bullshit people, and don’t have private conversations about other people behind the backs of other Jellies.

As a Mod, don’t use your honeymoons or other stuff as reasons for why you can’t deal with the current shit storms that have been caused, in part, by your own actions. If you aren’t really able to be a Mod, decline being a Mod.

I’m sure there will be a few people who are angry that I have dared to say what I have said. I really don’t care. Why should I care? I will probably be modded for saying what I believe to be the truth.

I’ve always believed in Auggie’s ideas about how this site should work, at its best. Right now, there are a few flies in the ointment, but hopefully we can all get back to doing what we do best: answer questions to the best of our ability, with passion, compassion and the desire to speak the truth.

There have always been people who say “this is not a democracy. If you don’t like the rules of the site, you canleave.” This is true. This, however, doesn’t mean that the mods or the application of the rules can’t and shouldn’t be questioned. This doesn’t mean that the modding and anything else can’t and shouldn’t be looked at more closely. This doesn’t mean that people who are on the site shouldn’t have the ability to express their displeasure.

I work for a union (I am a member of the union and I work full time as a rep) and even though work is not a democracy, and ultimately if people don’t like the rules from the employer they can fuck off and leave, they (the employees) question things all the time. All the time, things are not fair at work. How come the new guy gets a parking spot and the guy who’s been here 15 years still is on the list for a spot? How come this person is late all the time and that person is late twice and gets in trouble? Why is there a dress code? Even though we work under a cotract, the various departments make their own rules. What rules can they make and what rules will not be allowed to supercede the contract?

When the employees question things, it often makes things better for all. Maybe the parking spots were not distributed fairly. Maybe the management of an individual unit or department made a rule that superceded the contract, and by bringing it to someone’s attention, the rule got eliminated and the contract was upheld.

Just the very ability to question things and the power to get some things changed makes things better for all.

There is a certain arrogance in saying “these are the rules. If you don’t like it, you can leave.”

From what I understand, over 40 people signed the petition already. I’ve been saying, for a long time, that I think there are about 50 regular Jellies on this site (including long timers who come and go sporadically, for example @Hawaii_Jake). I know @johnpowell did a computer run and came up with 200, but by his own admission he counted everyone who was on the site during a certain period, which means people who came here once and left (for example, the one who was just married and his wife gave him artistic nude photos of herself).

Even if the petition is ignored, which it very well may be, it shows a real division and dissatisfaction from what I think are the majority of Jellies.

@Kardamom I really haven’t wanted to weigh in to this but that was really harsh and unfair. First of all, Auggie was paid so it was her job. Second of all, as has been said multiple times, decisions like suspensions are made by all the mods in consultation so you cannot blame one for unfairness or favoritism.

If you are looking to destroy this site with your unreasonable attacks and anger, you’re doing a good job of it. Who would want to be a mod after this shitstorm?

Also, the mods have said they are formulating a response and @longgone was kind enough to interrupt her honeymoon to tell us that. Don’t you have anything better to do in your life that you can’t wait?

You can respond but I won’t. I don’t get into arguments here any more.

@kardamon. I have no respect for you. People have lives, honeymoons, etc. apparently you don’t. This is not the do all, end all sites. I said it way up there, if you hate it, leave. Your hate spewed words are mind boggling.

I would love to see @Kardamom be a mod for one week. This is a person who complains about how people post pictures of their babies or feet on Facebook. I think she really doesn’t understand how it works.
On this thread alone there are more, and much louder voices, complaining about the mods than there are defending them. There are three mods. Three. There used to be 8–12.
@Kardamom, I doubt any are “angry that you have dared” speak this way, just disgusted by your censure and willful ignorance of what the job entails. I once saw you call a well-respected and kind mod “ignorant and lazy”. Now that made me angry. This is just pathetic.

“I keep my life controlled and predictable, and can’t comprehend why everyone else wouldn’t do the same.”

Oh, @funkdaddy, you just made me laugh out loud. Thank you. :-)

Kardamom, are you shitting me? Honeymoon as an excuse? Do you seriously think this site is more important than somebody’s real-life marriage?

Auggie was paid. This was her job. It was what she did all day. The current volunteer mods have full time jobs/school that they do and then they come and use their own leisure time to come clean up after our childish little messes.

Your entitlement here is astounding.

@Kardamom, the mod using the fact that she’s on her honeymoon as an excuse? Really? You sound pathetic.

johnpowell got 208 regular users—those who had posted at least five times within the timeframe. He got a total of 416 members who posted within the timeframe.

But, I will repeat again, no matter the results that petition gets, it should not be used as a part of the decision. If we want the mods to be judicious and neutral with their decisions, we cannot expect them to then flip those decisions just because some number of us want them to. That is hypocritical on our part. (So would be saying that the ban can’t be lifted because there weren’t enough signatures on the petition. It works both ways; this issue isn’t about popular demand.)

I understand people wanting to know what happened. I understand people wanting to make sure it’s fair. That’s not what much of this thread has been about. Give the mods a chance to put together a formal explanation. Formal explanations take time (while gossip and rumors take no time at all). From what I understand, given the discussion here, most people who signed that petition did so without bothering to PM a mod for an explanation.

I have seen no evidence that our mods have been anything less than upstanding in their decisions. It’s not a popular decision. It’s not a pleasant decision. It’s a decision I think I can say that everyone wishes didn’t happen, even—and maybe especially—the mods. Ultimately, though, it looks like they were just fulfilling their mod duties. The one who made the decision was the one who kept doing things that she had already been warned about doing.

I understand, @Soubresaut, but for example the guy who posted about the wife’s artful nude photos, who posted seven times on one question and never returned again, he counts as a regular user?

relevant

We’re still doing it.

This is from one of my posts on that thread:

@all I had a communication class back in college a million years ago. I remember very little, but I remember we studied some things about group dynamics. Our group here at Fluther is quite frankly at a stage when the members begin to turn on each other. It happens as a group ages and doesn’t have much new blood entering it. It can go on a few different ways.
1. A miracle could happen, and we could start to get a lot of new blood.
2. The group could die.
3. The group could move past the personalities and work together to grow into something more than the individuals.

We’ve been getting new blood.

Wow. I just had to go back to find where @Kardamom posted the “Honeymoon excuse” thing. Reminds me of when my ex and I were in a heated custody battle with my oldest daughter’s bio mother. The attorneys called a mediation meeting. Well, my ex and I had just gotten married the weekend before, and he had asked the mother if they could reschedule that weekend’s visitation so Jenny could be part of the wedding.
During the mediation meeting the mother said, “And I’m not putting up with any more rescheduling for stupid reasons like “I’m getting married,” crap!”
That woman just blew my mind.

AND IF ANYONE FLAGS ANY COMMENTS ANYWHERE IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS I WILL BAN THEM!! Even though I can’t. Let’s leave the mods be for a bit. We can do this ourselves.

This entire question and thread can be summed up as follows:

Some users here believe the moderation is capricious, and some believe it is fair, and some believe it is as fair as humanly possible.

I am not a Mod, although I was asked to be one. The reason I declined to be a Mod is because I don’t have time to do all that is needed. You are right that Auggie was paid. That is probably how it should be. Just because a Mod is a volunteer, does not make it OK for them to neglect their duties, whatever they might be. It is pretty clear (due to what I have heard from other people in PM’s) that the Moderation is not happening in a fair manner. You can all hate me for saying that. That’s OK, it doesn’t make it any less true.

@canidmajor. I don’t know why you are so obsessed with feet. I probably have made some comments about feet in the past, but you have made it your mission to continue to bring it up. I don’t recall what the statement was, but you have obviously become obsessed with feet, or my particular comment about feet, but that’s OK. That’s your prerogative.

Yes, I have called some Mods lazy. Some Mods have been lazy. Not all Mods. Some Mods.

I don’t care if some of you think I’m pathetic, or unreasonable, or that you have no respect for me. I feel that way about some people on Fluther too. I’m sure we all do, hence this predicament we all find ourselves in. We all look at things differently. We all have different perspectives. We all believe that things should flow in a particular manner. Unfortunately, all of us are very different from each other and we all have very different ways of thinking. We all try to say exactly what we mean, and be truthful even if it makes other members angry. So be it.

I think most of us try to do the best we can, but because some of us are adamantly opposed to what others are saying or doing, and some people hold grudges for years and years, about subjects that most people have long forgotten, they get tripped up. We are all so different, we all have different ways of dealing with situations. We all have different ways of thinking about things. We all like certain people, and don’t like other people because they rub us the wrong way.

It’s just like like outside of Fluther.

@Kardamom: Your entire question about someone with unattractive feet makes me think you care about feet.
And you think that criticizing the very people who try to make this site livable will inspire them to do a better job? Really? What an asinine assumption. I truly believe you should try to put up with what they do for a week. You wouldn’t last a day, but you might learn a bit of humility.

Nobody’s charging you a dime to be here, you sound like a beggar bitching about the offerings at a soup kitchen.

@jca and all: Everyone but me could sign the petition and I would say it’s a bad idea. Everyone could erase their names and I would say it’s a bad idea. I do not want Fluther to be a site where we vote on whether or not we want members on here. I can’t think of anything more divisive or cliquey than that kind of atmosphere.

I think it’s an even worse idea when such campaigns are undertaken with partial facts, hasty assumptions, heated emotions, and little evidence suggesting that many or most of the campaigners gave the normal processes of Fluther a chance—things like PMing a mod for an explanation, and/or waiting for the mods’ more formal explanation of what happened.

(To be clear, everyone signing that petition is also implicitly signing their consent that petitions become a legitimate way to decide whether a member stays or goes. For the petition to be fair, it must be something that can happen for/to anyone. I hope you all can see why that’s destructive to the community.)

As for the 200 number. “Five posts” was decided in the census thread because we know there are regular users who post infrequently, and we also know that most users who only make an account for one question don’t usually post that many times. The example @jca gave is someone who was already familiar with the site and its vibe, and was considering becoming a regular user again. Yes he would count in that number, but I highly doubt there are many examples like that to skew the estimate very much. I would also guess that there are some regular users who didn’t reach that 5-post threshold (because they were on a hiatus during that time, or because they typically don’t post much, etc.), who consequently weren’t counted in the total. It’s the best estimate we have.

Given that, I don’t think it’s accurate to suggest that the petition shows division and dissatisfaction from the majority of users.

However, my larger point about the petition was that I don’t care what results it gets. If someone repeatedly goes against Fluther guidelines and consistently flouts warnings about certain behavior, they have made their own decision; the mods are just following through. I am about as sure as I can be that when the mods deliver their formal explanation, we will see that’s all this amounts to. I think the better, more civil course of action is to respect that user’s decision, rather than trying to drag everything and everyone who might seem somehow related to the issue through the mud.

@Soubresaut Petitions are often more like a protest than anything. A protest isn’t going to change a law or stop a war or get Trump out of office or whatever your grievance is and protesters know that; it’s a way to show dissatisfaction. So I’m not saying I want the petition to affect mod decisions and I’m not sure how many actually expect it too. I think this thread and the petition and everything that has resulted from this have shown people’s “dissatisfaction” enough (some of which may have been based on incomplete or inaccurate information).

@Hawaii_Jake I think it’s a form of “cabin fever” more than anything. Most of us have been here a long time, most of us know what everyone’s opinions and beliefs are, and many have developed grudges and feuds with other users over the years and there aren’t really any outlets for them. So when something like this happens, the venom comes out. It’s happened on every forum I’ve been a member of.

I can think of another forum I’m on where there’s one user that I just don’t get along with and probably never will. And a few times a year he and I “go at it”. It seems pointless in the end, but it keeps happening. And I see similar things here.

@canidmajor I think the reason the Mods and their decisions are being questioned, is not to inspire those particular individuals to do a better job. It is to suggest that maybe they should not be Mods. I realize that people have lives and are very busy. Those are not the right people to take on the modding duties. It has become clear that the modding has been done unfairly, and in an unbalanced manner, otherwise, a whole bunch of us, including the people that don’t think there is a problem with the moderation, would have been modded, and possibly banned, a long time ago.

Houston, we’ve got a problem.

Some of us are trying to address the problem. Addressing the problem makes some people very, very angry.

I’m a member of lots of forums, and the most diverse, accepting, and fun ones use a “vote to ban” system.

It’s really not unheard of.

[Mod Says] Since nothing constructive can come out of letting this discussion continue, we have decided to close it. All concerns will be addressed directly in a separate thread.