Should George H.W. Bush be put on trial for sexual assault?

Yes, and the punishment should be the same death that William Wallace got.

No court is going to indict him, and no jury is going to convict a 93-year old former president.

Assuming is telling the truth, prosecutors are going to have a hell of a time proving beyond a reasonable doubt much of anything.

It’s far more likely that Bush will offer money to have her go away.

~I was having my teeth cleaned recently and while working to remove some tough plaque and tarter the hygienist touched my head with her boob several times. I froze and did not acknowledge or encourage in any way.-~
~Was I assaulted – or was she? Is there a court case in the making here?~

Not, probably not. Sometimes hands brush body parts of another by accident. I don’t think he is a groper by habit or intent. If his hand lingered too long, or petting or pinching took place, well, ...

Not on the information in that clip. Can you imagine a prosecutor trying to mount a case against a 93 year old man with no history of sexual misconduct for the supposed offense of brushing against some woman’s behind? Let’s wait to see if dozens of women now come forward complaining of similar treatment from George the First.

Fors a 93 year old dude in a wheelchair even know where the hell he is at?

You all know he admitted to doing it, right?

That CNN article (if accurate) includes a statement from Bush’s spokesman that admits the behavior:

“At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures,” McGrath said. “To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the same joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears in what he intended to be a good-natured manner. Some have seen it as innocent; others clearly view it as inappropriate. To anyone he has offended, President Bush apologizes most sincerely.”

And the article describes how it was taken by the woman complaining about him touching her butt:

“But when I got the chance to meet George H. W. Bush four years ago to promote a historical television show I was working on, he sexually assaulted me while I was posing for a similar photo,” the post went on to say. “He didn’t shake my hand. He touched me from behind from his wheelchair with his wife Barbara Bush by his side. He told me a dirty joke. And then, all the while being photographed, touched me again.”

I’d say it’s pretty clear that she thinks being intentionally touched on the ass (accompanied with a dirty joke) is sexual assault.

Clearly Bush admits this is something he does and doesn’t think he is assaulting people.

I would say that our society is guilty of gross dysfunction by allowing such a chasm to exist where this ex-president and his staff can think it’s harmless to pat asses in a way that others regard as sexual assault, and yet some of us would like to ignore that or laugh it off or get angry at the people talking about the groping.

Bush and his entourage need to have it clearly explained what this behavior is like for some of people, and they need to be warned that they need to respect it and correct their behavior. People who can’t respect that sort of boundary negative press and legal action, regardless of their social status.

As for the idea that being 93 years old means that a person is demented, that’s ageist bullshit. If the is demented, then that’s relevant, but even young people can be demented, and being very old does not mean that a person is. Even if Bush is demented, he is surrounded by the Secret Service and assistants who, given they know that he has a habit of touching women on the ass and repeating a joke about it, those non-demented people assisting him should be warning people about his behavior. They probably should even if he isn’t demented, because otherwise their lack of warning would seem to imply he’s safe to be around.

On the surface it appears like a no name actress putting herself in the limelight during all this #metoo frenzy.

^^^ Yeah, that’s what I took from the former president’s press statement too….

I don’t know his mental frame of mind, but Rick’s dad is 95 and I wish he was in a wheel chair. He lives alone in the house he raised the boys in and I’m so scared he’s going to fall. If he did something like that, he’d be well aware of what he was doing.

Anyway, as a woman I wouldn’t make a big deal about it. I wouldn’t feel threatened. I’d just move away and not get within reaching distance again.

No, I don’t think he should be prosecuted.

I will just say that there are absolutely millions of people (male/female) who sexually assault people ALL THE TIME.

It’s not ok. But it’s constant. If he’s a man, he should be charged. If it’s a woman, it wouldn’t matter….

Does any here really think that if it was Mrs. Bush admitting the same, she would be punished? Of course not….

He didn’t admit to anything. What is the point of charging him? Or throwing him in jail? Maybe he doesn’t even know he did it?

His spokesman admits Bush regularly touches women on the butt without asking permission or saying that’s what he’s going to do, and he has a regular joke he makes about it, which one of the women has described as a “dirty” joke.

To many women, that is not acceptable behavior. (He doesn’t do it to men, apparently.) People who make a habit of touching other people’s butts without asking and joking about it ought to be told that many people consider that offensive sexual behavior and that he should stop. And if he won’t stop, people should keep explaining what the impact of that is, and would be entirely justified in using whatever legal resources exist. If he’s demented, then his entourage has a responsibility to warn people about the groping.

Honest, but perhaps silly, question; What makes this sexual? Is it the touching, the setting, the joke, something else, some combination?

@funkdaddy The touching of the buttocks without an agreed non-sexual context is considered sexual. The sexual joke also acknowledges the sexual context. And without consent, touching someone’s buttocks generally qualifies as groping, which in many codes is considered a form of sexual assault.

That’s like asking how could putting your hand on a woman’s breast be considered sexual. Because it is, and everyone knows it. Would you come up a behind a woman you don’t even know and just rest your hand on her butt @funkdaddy?
It could have been an accident, since he’s in a wheelchair, but if he made a dirty joke at the same time that means it was no accident.
However, we don’t know if he actually did, though.

@Dutchess_III “However, we don’t know if he actually did, though.”

Well sure, other than the press release from his office acknowledging that he did it.

No, I know he touched her. I don’t think we know if he really told a dirty joke at about the same time.

Dirty joke or not, he acknowledges that it was no accident.

I said it ”“could” have been an accident, but I don’t think it was. Not sure what should be done about it, either.

Bear with for a second, I’m not arguing, I don’t have a strong feeling for this, I’m just trying to understand.

To answer your questions, I would generally rest my hand on the small of someone’s back or up on their shoulders for a photo like that. Either could be interpreted as inappropriate, but I guess I rely on

1) my intention, which isn’t sexual
2) reputation and understanding that I’m not trying to make a connection with anyone
3) common sense that the situation won’t escalate from there

to protect me from them being interpreted that way, to some extent. From reactions here and elsewhere, I have to assume that’s not enough. I don’t want to make people uncomfortable, but at the same time, I’d rather not completely retreat into a shell of protection. The rules are changing but really haven’t had time to coalesce into any sort of public consensus.

Would I make a joke? I’m not sure. I’d definitely say something like “come on in close, I love you all” or something half-jokey to get everyone huddled in. Apparently that would be strike two.

So I’m curious how to avoid that situation. I’m super harmless, but could see something like this going down and honestly it’s kind of terrifying. If a 93-year-old wheelchair bound ex-president, who has been married to one woman for 70+ years, is going to be remembered as a sexual predator because of a couple clothed butt touches and self deprecating jokes, where does that leave schmucks like me?

I honestly already avoid physical contact with ladies and kids because I’m afraid it will be misinterpreted, but some situations call for it.

Another example from a different perspective. I moved some furniture for a lady in an office a couple of weeks ago, nothing major. When I was done she came over behind me and rubbed my shoulders and told me she wished she had some muscle at home to take care of things. I laughed, it was a compliment, she’s older than my parents, and it was harmless. But with what we’re talking about here, it sounds like it was sexual assault in this brave new world.

I like the Rock test but honestly this situation probably fails that. I’d definitely touch the Rock’s butt and make a joke if I was 93 and in a wheelchair. Hopefully he wouldn’t call me out years later.

I’m not sure I like this brave new world, but I’d like ladies not to have to be afraid, so I guess I’m trying to work out where that leaves us, in meaningful terms.

The rules are not changing @funkdaddy. It’s always been wrong. Only the men didn’t see anything wrong with it, and I’m glad they’re finally wising up.

So much depends on unspoken intent. If a guy rested his hand on the small of my back I’d slide my eyes sideways to get a feel for what he may be thinking. I’ve had men “harmlessly” rest their hand on the small of my back, only to start sliding south. Small of the back is just too close, for me, anyway.

If you aren’t on intimate terms with a woman, just don’t touch her in a way that you wouldn’t touch your mother or your sister.

You know you’re harmless. We women don’t know that.

But I think I speak for all of us when I tell you how very much appreciate you giving it some intelligent thought.

As far as bodily contact goes I have one simple rule – unless we’re close enough to be intimate, don’t touch me. I apply that rule to myself when it comes to me touching others. For me it’s not even a question of whether something’s sexual assault or not, but rather of respect for personal boundaries and bodily autonomy.

Cool.

@funkdaddy It’s about where you touch. Back and shoulders are not generally considered sexual though if you don’t know someone it’s probably best to ask. Breasts, buttocks, and inner thighs are mentioned along with vulva in the legal lists of sexual body parts in the laws I just looked at.

Before touching anyone, I’d want some indication it’s ok with them. Even as a man, I don’t generally want to be touched by people I don’t know without some sort of agreement first. I don’t mind hugging people I’ve just met, sometimes it’s even nice, but I expect them to at least make some sort of gesture that’s asking before they just do it.

Ugh, huggy people are the worst.

I think the term “sexual” may only apply if the one doing the assaulting was intent on getting the victim into bed. Was GHWB capable? Otherwise, it may simply have been, or seen as, vulgar bodily assault. A moot point, perhaps…

i have no problem with labeling a man fondling women’s breasts on the subway guilty of sexual assault.

Did GHWB fondle a woman’s breasts?? I didn’t hear of that! I heard he touched her buttocks.

If there is truly any man out there who doesn’t understand which parts of the body can be construed as sexual ask your self, “Would I touch another man there?”

@kritiper he couldn’t reach her breasts.

@Dutchess_III FYI@stanleybmanly mentioned breasts.

sorry

@kritiper he was referring to people on the subway, just a generalization. He wasn’t referring to GHWB.

@Dutchess_III It sure sounded that way. Otherwise, where is the relevance? (Not picking on you, @stanleybmanly .)

the comment was my take on whether an act can be labeled a sexual crime absent copulation.

@kritiper, he said, “i have no problem with labeling a man fondling women’s breasts on the subway guilty of sexual assault.” GHWB wasn’t on the subway and he didn’t touch her breasts. He put his hand on her butt.

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Your right @Dutchess_III ! ! !