Is Trump going to be impeached, found guilty and get fired or not?
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It’s much too early to tell.
We can hope so. But I suspect he will become known as the new Teflon Don.
The original backers for Manafort were Don Jr., Ivanka, Jared Kushner and Tom Barrack.
I wonder if any of them know they are currently being tailed?
He’ll be president until he resigns, is criminally charged and convicted or survives four years.
That’s what they were saying the day he got elected. I’m so done with the idiot.
Critics of the investigation have a point. By this I mean that they understand what the bulk of Americans don’t. I almost feel sorry for Trump. Mueller’s investigation was initiated to discover the extent of Russian interference in the 2016 election. The problem for Trump is that this sort of thing is never limited to its stated intent. And ANY information indicating ANY chance of ANY criminal activity on the part of ANYONE involved for ANY reason can be investigated. The powers given Mueller with his grand jury and unlimited resources are rather terrifying. Mother Teresa would be lucky to emerge unindicted, if Mueller combed through her affairs in mind of criminal prosecution. To me this is why Trump is almost certainly doomed. Critic or fan of the man only a fool would contend that oily Donald can undergo close and thorough looking at and emerge unscathed. Mueller can systematically force anyone who ever worked a crooked deal with Trump to rat out Big Orange, and the revelations promise to be both voluminous and staggering. My guess is that Trump will resign with a pardon from Spence in his pocket that will cancel out any chance for Spence’s election in 2020.
@janbb. I have a friend named Spence, and I torment him relentlessly for his last name. Thanks for derailing my freudian freight laden train of thought.
There’s no one to really fire the President, at least not until 2020.
We should all read up on impeachment and the other options out there. I keep learning and there isn’t anything that looks likely. Removing the President is really a long and difficult road. Which it should be, I suppose.
Impeachment takes a majority in the House to get a trial and a ⅔ vote in the Senate after the trial. So 67 senators have to agree that removing the President is the right course of action. That seems unlikely without an enormous and public charge.
There’s only two realistic scenarios that I see
1) He resigns once it becomes clear he may be charged (by far the most likely way he leaves, I think)
2) 2018 mid-term elections move the House and Senate numbers dramatically, and people need to start making deals without Trump. People start talking differently about the President, maybe even Fox News and Twitter take a hard look. That would actually move public opinion, I think.
I don’t think #2 is going to happen. We could start nuking islands and 35% of the country would still be in favor of the current leadership. That 35% is concentrated in some districts, and that’s not going to change much.
Get ready to vote. Vote in every election you can, especially those with low turnout. It all adds up to real change, even though it doesn’t make the national news.
I keep shaking my head at the cognitive dissonance that these kinds of discussions produce.
On the one hand, Trump’s many and vocal critics proclaim that “he’s making us look like a Banana Republic!” and in the same sentence practically (and sometimes literally) they endorse all kinds of Banana Republic tactics to oust him.
I’m no fan of Trump, believe me, or of government in general. My feelings on this have been pretty clear since I’ve been a member of this forum. But I’m interested in “following republican processes of government” above all else… and the tactics being discussed would absolutely blow up any remaining semblance of constitutional, process-driven republican government.
So, I guess… go ahead. If you want to see the government brought to its knees as ardently as I do, then whip up some kind of half-baked pretense of a “reason” to make this happen, and watch how fast it all collapses. All those who love the government so much – which is most people here – will not like the results. “Pence as President” would be the absolute least of your worries then.
@funkdaddy “Get ready to vote. Vote in every election you can, especially those with low turnout. It all adds up to real change, even though it doesn’t make the national news.”
Absolutely! It’s easy to get fired up about the main event every four years, but far too many ignore the less flashy inbetween elections. Those “inbetween” elections, however, are where the real difference is made.
@CWOTUS
Interesting how a process outlined in the Constitution would “blow up any remaining semblance of constitutional, process-driven republican government”.
@Darth_Algar you’re not stupid, and you surely know that wasn’t what I meant – at all. If there are “high crimes and misdemeanors” in his conduct of the office, then by all means bring them out, have the House vote on the proceedings and the Senate on whether to convict or not.
I’m talking about the implicit assumption that as long as Mueller stays in his job there will surely be something for him to find that will make a show trial a little less obvious.
Yeah. It’s probably going to take a long time. The media will pound 24 hour coverage, of every tiny detail as if he’s going to be gone soon.
His supporters will not change their godlike view of him. They are the biggest problem, to me. I’d love to ostracize them from what would be a great country without them. Whether or not Trump gets removed, we all learned how low some of our citizens are. How uninformed, bigoted, xenophobic, selfish, and ruthless they are. Without these pathetic individuals, we wouldn’t have Trump in the first place. As long as people who think like them can vote, it will be a battle to put decent people in power.
Keep in mind that Trump will most likely spew his BS long after leaving office, regardless of how. He will be a massive distraction in future elections, until he dies, hopefully soon…
Trump is not exactly welcoming the investigation which makes me think he has something to hide. Time will tell. Either way I am confident Mueller will do a good job.
You can definitely say it now @seawulf575 . It’s a witch hunt. Whose going to burn at the stake?
I’ve heard Trump may fire Mueller…
@mrgrimm888 They just said Trump can not fire him.
Too early to tell about what’s going to happen to Trump with all this. Manafort and Gates were indicted on things they did from 2006 to 2012, not from anything they did while with the Trump campaign. However, Manafort was working with Hillary and Obama during that time so this might go the other way and find charges brought against a former Sect of State and former Pres. Doubtful, but possible. Could Mueller dig up something on Trump? Again, possibly. It would be difficult to find something worth impeaching him for if it didn’t occur during or since the campaign.
@MrGrimm888 I’m not even going to go there. I think the DoJ did a great disservice to not put limits on the focus of the investigation. It becomes anything that can be dug up from any time in the past against anyone that pops up. That, I guess, could be called a witch hunt, but it is definitely sloppy. The original intent was to look into whether Russia interfered with our election and whether there was collusion with them. These indictments prove it is way beyond that.
I doubt Trump will fire Mueller. He might want to, but it would be a PR nightmare. Unfortunately for this country, all this is taking time, effort, and money away from things that we could be doing to fix the country.
Trump has already fired Comey who was the first choice to head the investigation. It would look bad if he now fires Mueller as well especially after Mueller has begun to uncover evidence of wrongdoing. However if Trump gets desperate who knows what he might do.
What I would really like to hear is all 320 million Americans face Trump in the White House and shout out together “You’re fired”.
Maybe a doctor will sign him off as unfit.
There are no limits on an independent prosecutor who has sole discretion on the direction and depth of his investigation. The crimes Manafort and Gates are alleged to have committed occurred well before Manafort directed Trump’s electoral campaign. But I suspect that the only reason that these indictments appear NOW is due to the problem with statutes of limitations on the time permitted prior to prosecution. But we’re missing the point that Manafort is merely the hook to catch the bigger fish. Mueller’s indictment of Manafort effectively says “Let’s make a deal. You tell me everything you know about the great pumpkin, and you might receive a slap on the wrist. But if I catch you in a single lie, your hot ass goes to prison for a long time.” Manafort, who can never be sure of exactly what Mueller knows or who has ratted what on whom already, has every incentive to answer every question truthfully. In fact he has arrived where he is precisely because this exact tactic has been employed to bring him to ground. And every sleazeball that Trump ever met is in for the same ordeal. And Trump being Trump, I cannot see any way past the unearthing of volumes of dirt unprecedented in the history of the country.
@flutherother Sounds like something that emperor Ming the Merciless would do. From Flash Gordon.
^Oh yeah. This is just the tip of the iceberg, that means to sink the most titanic ass hole, our government has ever seen. If Trump isn’t nervous, he’s even dumber than I think. They’re definitely trying to corner some people, in hopes of them rolling on Trump. I’m fairly certain that these cowards, and pussies will gladly throw Trump under a bus. My hope, is that many heads will role. I thoroughly enjoy watching our pathetic leaders be held accountable for their actions.
I find it relevant that if Trump had the ability to simply treat others with respect, and learn when to STFU, he probably wouldn’t even be dealing with any of this. He’s made a lot of powerful enemies, and stepped on a lot of people, and now they’re coming for him. People are simply treating him like he deserves. Some restraint, and tact would have gone a long way…
@seawulf575 . Some good points. I’m not too young to remember the Republicans wasting all that time/money trying to get Bill. It’s no fun watching the spectacle. In this case, I feel that it’s going to bend a lot of laws, and stretch some ethical lines. But ethics are rarely a variable in how things are done in D.C. Hopefully the ends will justify the means. I do think that Trump is a cancer to this nation, and if all of this gets him out of office, before he gets a lot of people killed, and ruins the lives of millions more, it’ll be worth every penny.
Trump isn’t done for though. His money, and threats may grease enough wheels to get him out of this yet. Any failure by the team to impeach and remove Trump, will only solidify his lies about “fake news.” It may help him with his war on free press, and his desire to rule beyond reproach. If future policies resulting from this reduce/destroy transparency of the executive branch, we will all lose…
I loved Ming. Sadly, as in real life, he was the only thing that made those hokey old Flash Gordon serials fun.
@CWOTUS
I have no idea that you meant anything other that how your post reads, as you gave nothing to indicate otherwise.
No, you lot have been bleating on about this for a year now & still, there he sits. Get over him or don’t but my guess is he ain’t going nowhere until he’s good & ready…me, I don’t care either way.
And yet you ^ post a comment on the subject…
I care. That’s why I’ve already kissed my ass goodbye.
@ucme You mean ‘good and ready’ like Nixon was?
@flutherother That article on Trump’s health…well, it was ridiculous and funny, but no surprise.
At some point, Trump’s core supporters will have to realize that he is not doing anything for them. They are not getting their jobs back. They are not getting better healthcare. Their tax money is going to the top 1%. If and when these people come to their senses, all heck will break loose.
Dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen. These people are fanatics who let wing nut radio do thier thinking for them.
“The lefties and Demoncrats sabotaged your Prez. Weapon up”.
I had to skip through a good deal of this discussion.
What I want to know is, what exactly was the crime Trump supposedly did, and why hasn’t anything been uncovered after more than a year—by such very eager, unlimitedly funded investigations?
Mueller has turned up NOTHING, Manaforts crimes were several years before any association with Trump and have nothing to do with Trump or Russia. Disappointed?
We HAVE uncovered that Hillary Clinton, in 2009 and 2010 approved twenty percent of our uranium to go to Vladmir Putin and that the Clintons received 140 million for this. That Mueller was the head of the FBI and Comey was the head of the DOJ at the time and that Obama was briefed on this. Why aren’t any of you concerned about this? A congressional investigation has already begun.
The “Trump Dossier” where the Hillary campaign through Fusion GPS colluded with Russia to influence an election—and the Uranium One fiasco where 20 percent of our uranium was given to Vladmir Putin as part of Hillary’s Russian Reset, are the real scandals of the century.
Yet you are incessantly still looking at Trump, and there is clearly nothing there,
I know you aren’t interested in the truth, but Hillary did not approve any uranium to be shipped to Putin. As Secretary of State She didn’t even have to power to do so!
They’ve only just begun. Trump is as dirty as they come. He’s also very stupid.
@Yellowdog
Really, you might want to stop mindlessly spewing old debunked bullshit.
Oh, and investigations, especially at this level, aren’t overnight jobs. They take a while. What was it, four years, from Watergate to Nixon’s resignation over it?
@Darth_Algar Watergate to Nixon was only 2 years, and much of the investigation was done up front. Watergate was broken into in June of 1972. Nixon resigned in August of 1974. So from the criminal event, it took 2 years to find out about it, investigate into who was involved, tie it back to the POTUS, and start bringing pressure to bear. @Yellowdog is correct that right now there is no crime. After a year from when he was elected, no one can actually point to anything that was done illegally by him. There is a lot of accusation and insinuation, but absolutely no facts at all. Even the things like the dossier are being questioned now because as we dig deeper, we start finding all sorts of new issues with the last election and none of them came from Trump.
And be honest, there were Dems and media talking heads talking about impeachment of Trump on election eve.
What are you talking about? No crimes committed? The man’s top campaign officials have been indicted and one of them has already pled guilty. The fact that Mueller would NOT accept a plea bargain from Flynn who is CLEARLY culpable can only mean that Mueller doesn’t need his testimony in the furtherance of this investigation. The truth is that the whole ball of snakes should be visibly quaking if they have a nickel’s worth of sense.
Didn’t Hillary steal the Democrat primary? Hillary and the DVC are as corrupt as they come. It surprises me that so many of you still venerate someone so plainly, openly corrupt—and has been so openly involved with Russia.
The one who has pled guilty— I think it was for getting dates wrong, Not a top official, but a rather low-level volunteer,
I neither venerate nor defend Hillary. She doesn’t need it. Had she been elected, you can bet your ass that she would be under investigation by SOMEONE as she has been off
and on for the past 30 years. You guys just don’t get it. Mueller is stitching a net around around the entire Trump crowd, and there has never been a more greedy, sleazy and completely inept a bunch of criminals to make Mueller’s job a picnic.
They can lock Hillary up too. I could care less. But this is about Trump. No more deflection by Hillary. And no, her crimes are not as relevant. She is not at the helm. The priority, is to get the idiot out of the Whitehouse ASAP. It’s damage control.
If Trump supporters want to start a thread about Hillary, and why she isn’t in jail, I’ll see you there. Start addressing the supposedly patriotic Trump, who is in office by Russian intent, to destabilize/divide our nation.
If Bill Clinton can be impeached I don’t see how Mr. Cheetohead can’t. His days are numbered.
@stanleybmanly The question was of impeachment of Trump. Right now, no crimes have been committed that would lead to impeachment. Manafort is being indicted for things he did long before Trump announced his candidacy…back to when he was working for Hillary and Obama. Kinda hard to impeach Trump for that.
@Aethelwine Trump can be impeached….just as soon as he does something worthy of impeachment. Bill Clinton committed perjury and committed obstruction of justice. That was what the charges of impeachment were for. To date, Trump has done none of these things that we know of. Most of those screaming about impeaching Trump are still butt-hurt because Hillary lost. They started screaming about impeaching Trump on January 19th, 2017…before he had even taken office.
Nobody’s butt hurt about Hillary having lost. We are upset about Trump – who he is, what he said he was going to do and what he is doing to hurt our country in health care, income redistribution, women’s autonomy, immigration rights and the environment.
@Yellowdog @seawulf575 It appears that the Trump team was in contact with Russian agents in the run up to last year’s election. This comes from the US intelligence services and has to be taken seriously. I can’t understand why you and other Trump supporters are so opposed to a complete and thorough investigation into this matter. Nothing else will clear Trump’s name and if indeed there was collusion shouldn’t we all know about it?
Here is an article suggesting that the Mueller investigation has already drawn blood in the Trump administration. Sam Clovis has withdrawn his nomination for head of the USDA, not because he is grossly unqualified, but because of his possible knowledge of a Russia connection to Trump’s presidential campaign.
So, serious question for the supporters here
If we look at what we know
- Trump has a history of pushing conventions and rules when it comes to ethics and business, hundreds of court cases and his own statements show this. He’s proud of it.
– HIs campaign manager has been indicted for multiple felonies, at this time all occurring before he was hired to lead the campaign, bur related directly to his work with foreign governments
– His campaign (son, Kushner, Manafort) met with multiple people with connections to Russian government in order to get “dirt” on his opponents, perhaps illegally
– It’s been shown that Russia tried to manipulate the election and other issues with the goal of destabilizing American politics and the population
– Russian leaders were excited that Trump won, and in some cases, shocked that their plan worked
– The former National Security Advisor, (Flynn) has something in his past he’d require immunity to talk about openly, and resigned because of connections to Russian interests (as well as other foreign governments)
– Comey was fired “because of this Russia thing”
– An aide has pleaded guilty (which means he’s admitted it happened) to withholding information regarding attempted Russian connections with the Trump campaign.
Just with what’s above, and nothing more than those facts, doesn’t an investigation make sense? Imagine it was anyone else in the world, wouldn’t that give the appearance of something being wrong or illegal?
Why continue arguing that this shouldn’t be happening? Why continue insisting that there is absolutely nothing Trump has done wrong? If the investigation concludes with nothing Trump has done wrong, great, the world moves on. But so far they’ve found quite a bit, and it’s still early in this investigation, which was started in May.
Why the deep denial of the pattern here? What do you need to see before you at least admit there might be something to this?
Well you know when Trump tries to fire Mueller “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark” ! !
@flutherother it is not uncommon for presidential candidates to contact foreign governments. In fact it is quite normal. Look at Trump’s predecessor for instance. He reached out to Afghani, Iraqi, German, Israeli, and Kenyan leaders all while being a candidate in 2008. Often they do it to places where US foreign policy is in the limelight. As for the US intelligence agencies, there are some inconsistencies there as well. Most of the major intelligence agency leaders came out early on stating that they weren’t sure if there was Russian interference with the election, but they were certain Trump was not involved. Obama and Hillary both stated categorically that while there might have been some meddling by Russia, it was not going to impact the outcome of the election and that the will of the people would be fully represented. Of course that was before Hillary lost. So let me ask…by your reasoning the US intelligence services have to be taken seriously. So why is it that when they come out confirming Trump was not involved that we shouldn’t take that seriously? The investigation into the Russia/Trump collusion is such a phenomenal waste of time and money I can’t begin to go into it. I am a firm believer that if there was actual solid, verifiable evidence that showed Trump worked with Russia to interfere with the election, it would have come out already. There are too many people turning over too many rocks for it to stay hidden. And the focus of those making the charges (liberals) has changed with the wind. It started off with Obama and Hillary claiming Russia was a no-nevermind in the election to Trump colluded with Russia to hack the DNC computers to now it is that Russia took out Facebook ads to undermine the election. Every time one of the claims falls apart, it morphs into something else to keep the game alive. It is sad, really. Here is an interesting article that addresses the Facebook ads and the claims of the intelligence communities. Take the time to read it.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-russia-facebook-ads-20171102-story.html
@LostInParadise That article is a rambling nothing. At worst it gives hints and innuendo…no facts at all. Read into it whatever you wish, but it really is nothing.
@seawulf Quoting a OpEd piece doesn’t prove anything, especially that Trump isn’t “Dirty” with Russian connections. And it is “rambling” too.
@funkdaddy I think you need to re-read your list and then determine if “fact” is the correct word to describe you list. Let’s walk through it:
1. Trump has a history of….fill in the blank. That is innuendo at it’s best. It shows nothing about any of the claims being made by others about his “collusion” with Russia.
2. His campaign manager was indicted…Again…innuendo. But it raises an interesting question. He was indeed indicted for actions before he joined the Trump campaign. That is a fact. Yet we stop there. We don’t go the next step and look at who he WAS working for which happens to be Hillary and Obama. Until we can open up all the can of worms and prosecute all the criminals, this investigation is nothing more than a witch hunt.
3. Kushner and Manafort met with Russians…this is true. Yet it is not uncommon for this to happen…a US presidential candidate meeting with leaders of other governments. The reasons you give are opinion, not fact. If they were fact, the entire investigation would be over, or nearly so.
4. Russia interfering…I will say possibly. But again, it doesn’t say a thing about Trump working with them so it is innuendo.
5. Russian leaders excited…I imagine so. They had been dealing with Obama being a butthead for the past couple years and Hillary was going to continue carrying that torch. If I were in their shoes and Hillary lost, I’d be excited too.
6. Comey was fired because…According to the reasons Trump gave it was because he mishandled the Hillary email scandal and lost the confidence of the FBI. “That Russian Thing” is what liberals hope the reason was so that they can claim obstruction of justice. Again, if that was true, the investigation would be done.
7. An Aide plead guilty to…an aide can plead guilty every day of the week and it still doesn’t show that Trump did anything wrong. If his testimony was that Trump ordered this or that, then he wouldn’t plead guilty, he would cut a deal to minimize his portion of it. Again…innuendo.
You have just offered up a whole lot of innuendo and claimed they were facts. Congrats…you are a liberal.
I might turn your other questions around on you and the other Trump haters on here: With this investigation going on for a year now and with multiple intelligence agency heads saying Trump did nothing wrong…INCLUDING COMEY…why are you so adamant that this needs to continue? There have been thousands of people trying to find something that would point to a Trump wrong-doing and so far there is nothing but innuendo at the best. So why is there so much deep denial from you? Can’t you just admit that there isn’t anything to it and that it is a huge waste of time and money?
@Tropical_Willie And so far, all that has been brought against Trump is innuendo which doesn’t prove anything. And that is all that has been brought despite the thousands of hours that have been spent trying to find something that is an actual fact. How long does this go on before you lefties have to admit that there isn’t anything?
^Again. The thread is not about Hillary, or Obama. This deflection of attention only works on the right.
This dumb argument that “Trump did nothing, just everyone around him,” is ridiculous.
@MrGrimm888 It’s not a deflection at all…it is an expansion. The question is whether Trump will get impeached or not and one of the things that was brought up during the discussion was the Paul Manafort indictment. It was being used as an innuendo that Trump might be involved with Russia even though the jelly commenting stated it all happened before he joined Trump’s team. I pointed out that at the time he was working for Hillary and Obama. So here’s the question to you, do you want the truth or not? Or do you just want a witch hunt? If, while investigating, it turned up that Hillary actually was colluding with Russia, should we just drop the investigation because it wasn’t Trump? Or should we actually take action?
How many hours were spent on Benghazi before the Republicans gave up? And remember, Mueller is a Republican – just an ethical one.
@seawulf575 Thanks for the article. The author doesn’t deny that Russian “troll farms” were active on Facebook during the election and saying they had “tiny budgets” doesn’t mean they didn’t have a huge influence on the American electorate. Facebook estimates that 126 million Americans saw these ads which moreover were targeted for maximum effectiveness.
It is worth remembering that Zuckerberg’s initial reaction was to dismiss the idea that Facebook could influence the election. It was only as a result of Mueller’s investigation into Russian meddling that the scale and the identity of the trolling on Facebook came to light.
PS. Having contacts with foreign governments prior to an election may not be unusual but denying they took place does give rise to suspicion.
@seawulf575 -
You have just offered up a whole lot of innuendo and claimed they were facts.
I could cite each and I’m sure we wouldn’t agree. Some of those are direct quotes from the man himself, that you’ve dismissed.
Congrats…you are a liberal.
You have a lack of understanding of what I’m saying. I guess let’s talk about it in 6 months or so. Will you be here, with the same arguments?
My argument is simply that you’re dismissing a growing mountain of connections to maintain your position. I’m asking why.
@seawulf575 I agree that Mueller has revealed nothing as yet which places Trump’s neck in the noose. But here’s the difference between all of those past efforts to ensnare demon Hillary and her Satanic husband compared to the current investigation. And it is this difference that almost certainly assures Trump’s downfall. The missing ingredient in the many attempts to nail Clinton that is readily abundant and ample beyond belief when it comes to Trump, is a huge nest of rats. Republicans had no one to “turn” on Clinton. Mueller is clearly free of any such encumbrance. Perhaps I’m biased, and Hillary’s crowd is just a lot slicker than Trump’s, but there is also the distinct possibility that the charges against Clinton are made up bullshit and therefore free of collaborating rats. But back to Trump whose doom is all but prescribed. What Mueller did with Popawhatever that man’s name is shows us why Trump doesn’t stand a chance in hell. Popo… is a minor rat in the nest who rolled so fast that the public hadn’t a clue. But because he rolled, the Attorney General of the United States is on the road to a perjury charge. And every one of the rats in the chain who lied or omitted a fact required on a form is vulnerable to being extorted for the truth about rats above them on the chain. And as I said, I almost feel sorry for Trump.
Someone keeps saying “No crime has been committed.” That’s a bit misleading. We simply have yet to uncover irrefutable proof that a crime has been commited. Or maybe they already have and we just don’t know about it yet.
This investigation is far from over.
@flutherother The other part of the article that you miss is that Russia hasn’t really aligned with anyone on the Facebook ads. They were more or less slams on our country. During the election they tended to pick on Hillary. Since the election they have targeted Trump. And here’s the part that the left always wants to ignore…can you point to one person that was really swayed by anything that Russia was supposed to have done? Anyone that actually changed their mind about the candidates because of a Facebook ad or because of hacked emails released on Wikileaks? If you polled 10,000 random voters, I doubt any them could tell you anything specific that was in the emails nor what an ad on Facebook said. The election was polarized from the start. There were very few people on the fence about who they wanted or didn’t want.
The number of people influenced through Russian interference is irrelevant. The gullibility of the voters is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not there was willing participation on the part of Americans in the Russian attempt to elect Mr. Trump. And as I keep saying; on consideration of Mr Trump’s record and history, combined with events thus far in this investigation, the smart money has scant difficulty realizing in which direction the axe will fall.
@funkdaddy I have always maintained that if Trump were ever found guilty of something worth impeachment, I would wholeheartedly support his impeachment. What I tend to rail against is the silliness of taking innuendo as fact, hints and allegations as proof of some crime which no one can actually point to. And I am particularly annoyed that every time something in the investigation points to Hillary, it immediately moves away from that. I’m all for tearing through Washington DC and getting rid of the slime, once and for all. They should all be held to the same laws as the rest of us and, in fact, should be held to a higher standard instead of letting them skate.
@stanleybmanly You forget the most important difference between the Trump investigation and all the ones into Clinton: A special investigator has been appointed. Trump suggested it for this case. Obama absolutely refused with anyone in his organization, including Hillary. Even Comey said it…she broke the law. She wasn’t prosecuted for one reason…Loretta Lynch wouldn’t do it. So Comey had to create a law that included intent so he could justify not prosecuting her. Don’t fool yourself.
And I say it again…Popadopolous has been charged and he may even have spun a story. But if it was solid proof, there would already be charges. So until that happens, it is all innuendo and allegations.
@Dutchess_III You are correct. I probably keep saying no crime has been committed because no one can actually name one for which there is proof. But with as many sources that are looking for something…anything…on Trump, to have nothing after a solid year tells me there really isn’t much. When Nixon was nailed, it took two years to identify the crime, tie the criminals to Nixon, and bring pressure on him. And that was when the criminals were caught in the act. As far as I know, nothing even close to that has happened in this case.
He refuses to release his tax returns. I think there is a good chance that, at the least, he is guilty of tax evasion.
@seawulf575 We don’t know the effect Russia had on the election but that is the problem. The trolling on Facebook was quite subtle, so subtle that Facebook wasn’t even aware it was happening. The Russians weren’t blatantly saying vote for Trump it seems they targeted specific groups with specific messages on topics of interest to those people and perhaps their friends. Those targeted were likely not even aware they were being influenced. This is all new territory and we’re just beginning to discover what was going on but we can no longer pretend it wasn’t happening.
@seawulf575 Again, Popa… unlike Lynch has not only been charged but CONVICTED. And unlike Clinton whose culpability in your words hung on turning Lynch, there are so many people caught up in this investigation that you can bet that the numbers who will rush to save their own hides are beyond calculation. The pressure is immense on these people to step forward to trade information in pursuit of leniency before the similar actions of their co conspirators renders their own information worthless. THIS is what Popa… was all about, and those who talk first will be the relative “winners”. Once again, there is no way for us to determine who has come forward and folded already, but the clues are significant. When Flynn offered to spill the beans in return for immunity and Mueller refused, it’s a fair indication that Mueller doesn’t need Flynn’s testimony to build a case. Flynn, Monafort, Gates, Popa… are all cooked. THOSE are your people so far) whose criminal involvement is no longer a matter of speculation. Popa… was secretly CONVICTED months ago, and his revelations suppressed in order to allow him to draw others into the expanding net. We have no idea how many others have been indicted, but you can bet they exist.
Something HAS to be done. We have a (Black) Republican legislator in Texas who has proposed articles of impeachment for Trump and who has received death threats including talk off lynching. I’m sick of these scumbag thugs trying to turn back the clock to the 19th Century. Get the hell out of my America and don’t come back. Im fed up with this wing nut bull shit.
@Dutchess_III Honestly, he is under no obligation to release his tax records. They aren’t public record, they are his own personal business. If you want to play the “he didn’t do this and that would show” game, go back to Obama with his college transcripts. I think there is a good chance that, at the least, he was guilty of falsifying his applications. I would venture that he claimed foreign national status. But the facts are that you and I don’t know what is in those records and to hold these people as guilty based on what we surmise is foolishness.
@flutherother Whoa, whoa, whoa! According to Hillary, the Dems, and all those calling for Trumps impeachment, we DO know the effect Russia had on the election. They ruined it for Hillary. They fully supported Trump. And it wasn’t subtle…it was obvious. Now you are trying to say that all they did was pick at some policies or opinions of those in this country? Whoa!
@stanleybmanly Your reading comprehension is horrible. First off, I have never stated that Loretta Lynch was ever charged with anything. Nor did I even suggest that Clinton had to turn Lynch. Lynch refused to take any action against Hillary…none. What I said was that probably the biggest difference between Trump investigations and Hillary investigations is that a special prosecutor has been assigned in the Trump investigations and that was at the suggestion of Trump. Obama and Lynch refused to ever investigate any allegations against anyone in the Obama camp.
As for Papadopoulos, all I’ll tell you is “we’ll see”. Regardless of what he says or doesn’t say, it still has to come all the way back to Trump, and tie back solidly, before you have anything close to impeachable offenses. It would take a lot more than the testimony of one minor underling.
@NomoreY_A Let’s be accurate. The black Texas legislator is Al Green, who is a Democrat, has been screaming for impeachment since before Trump actually assumed the office of the president. He feels that because Trump tweeted about the NFL protests it is an impeachable offense. He is an idiot that is trying to make a name for himself. As for anyone making death threats against him, I am with you all the way…it is unacceptable. But then I feel the same way about BLM and Antifa.
I stand corrected he is a Dem but the report I heard put him down as Republican.
@seawulf575 I didn’t make it clear that my last comment referred only to Russia’s social media campaigns. The contact with Trump’s team is something else. Both need investigating urgently to try to prevent this happening the next time we vote.
@seawulf575 . You say this bringing up Hillary, and Obama is expansion. Not when you just repeat their alleged crimes, to ad nausea. And especially when nobody cares. I don’t see anyone wanting anyone to get away with anything.
I’m starting to think that you a @Yellowdog , are Russian trolls.
Again. You are avoiding the obvious.
Since you prefer to put attention on others, I will oblige you. I’ll start a thread about them, so you can face the music in this thread…
@flutherother while I fully support not having foreigners interfering with our elections, I struggle to believe that ads on Facebook influenced anyone. This past election was pretty much cut and dried and there weren’t a ton of people on the fence. You either liked what Obama had done and wanted more of it, or you thought the country was on the wrong path and wanted to avoid continuing down that path at an accelerated rate. Facebook ads, and especially subtle ones, weren’t going to sway many, if any, people.
But I am curious…since you don’t want foreigners interfering in our elections, would you be for voter ID laws to prevent illegal aliens from voting? Yes, it is off topic, but I was just curious.
@MrGrimm888 The expansion is tied together through Robert Mueller. He worked with Hillary and Obama on the Uranium One deal, protecting them through that. Now he is special prosecutor on an investigation in which there is mounting evidence that one of the keys is a dossier that was paid for by the Hillary campaign. So while investigating the Russia/Trump tie, he has to go through that dossier. One of the basic tenets of investigation is to verify all your facts. So verifying the dossier would have to be done, including where it came from and who commissioned it. In this case, the potential crimes of Obama and Hillary are VERY tied to the investigation.
I noticed I proposed a couple simple yes/no type questions to you concerning the ties between this investigation and Hillary/Obama. You entirely ignored them. Let me say I am not surprised…pretty much par for the course. When confronted with direct questions, you dodge and deflect. Generally when you get to that point, you throw a couple personal attacks and then run away.
And, BTW it is AD NAUSEAM, not AD NAUSEA.
@seawulf575 I agree it is difficult to say what effect Russia’s social media campaigns had on the election but I don’t think we should assume it was negligible. I think you underestimate the power of social media to influence our political views. It is accepted they have a powerful role in shaping our views of brands and of companies why not politics as well?
Your question about voter ID laws is a biased question that has nothing whatever to do with this issue.
@flutherother I don’t do a lot of social media and I ignore ads like crazy so I won’t argue the point. My position is more from the overall experiences I had running up to the election. People either loved Hillary or hated her…there was no real in-between. And based on that, I really don’t believe any ad would have changed peoples’ minds.
The question about voter ID was just curiosity. Because of the arguments in today’s news surrounding Russian interference, the idea of foreigners interfering with our elections is at the heart of the matter. My mind just went to illegal aliens voting and threw it out there. That was my tie to this topic, but as I said, it was curiosity. I didn’t expect an answer and probably wouldn’t have pursued much farther regardless of the answer if I did receive one.
Pardon me @seawulf575 . I have a “smart phone,” and if I half ass my proofreading it happens.
I’m unsure, in this case, where I “personally attacked” you. I entered the thread supporting something that you and I had a previous disagreement about. I later admitted that this was indeed a witch-hunt. In this thread, I led with that, to give you credit. That is, IMO, what this has turned into.
But they’re going to dig up a lot. At this point, Trump has very poor judgment, for surrounding himself with all these bad people, or he is part of it. I just don’t see an alternative.
What rational person would draw a different conclusion?
@seawulf575 , There are a lot of people, me included, who thought of Clinton as the lesser of two evils, who held their noses while pressing the election booth switch. The news coming out now about the Democratic party should pretty much finish Clinton’s political career. The control she had, while not illegal, is highly distasteful. Even so, knowing what I know now, I would still vote for her over Trump.
It looks like Wilbur Ross, Trump’s Commerce Secretary, will be next to be fired. He is still doing business with Vladimir Putin’s son-in-law through a shipping venture in Russia.
But aren’t trade agreements with Russia OK? Is no one supposed to have any contact of any kind with Russia?
@janbb He is a close friend of Trump’s and helped him avoid bankruptcy when Trump’s casino business was failing
@Dutchess III Surely you can understand why no one at top levels of our government should be allowed to be involved in lucrative business dealings in Russia. And from all appearances it seems that it is impossible to find ANYONE in the Trump administration free of Russian tentacles. To say that this is an administration built around people who are clearly out of their depth is the height of understatement. THESE folks are criminally inept with such a transparent lack of of understanding that it just boggles the mind
Yes, I can understand, but he’s the Commerce Secretary. Overseeing shipping ventures with any foreign country is in his job descriptions. Unless we’ve imposed sanctions on Russia.
Screw the sanctions!!!!! It would be UNETHICAL and patently illegal for that man to be involved in business ventures for personal gain in ANY country friend or foe including OURS while Secretary of Commerce. THIS is why divestiture is paramount.
Well, whomever didn’t specify that it was for personal gain. Of course that would be illegal.
the shipping ventures story above is not about government to government negotiations over shipping matters. It is about this fool’s personal
holdings in a company CURRENTLY doing business with Putin’s brother in law. His ass is justifiably fried.
Then yes. He should be fired, and tried.
I’ve given up hope that the justice system would do anything to touch him. The only way I see him resigning is if his company loses billions because people refuse to do business with him. But I don’t see that happening. He got into this to assure he would make billions more by making it legal to cheat tax payers and getting more connections abroad that will make money for him and his family.
I believe he can go on a shooting rampage in the White House and nothing will happen to him.
How could people be so blind to what was so obvious to the majority of us, and that Trump was running thinking that if he won (which he didn’t expect to) it was just one more money making scheme to line his own pockets. He doesn’t give a crap about the American people.
@Dutchess_III and that makes him different than every other politician how, exactly? Hillary certainly doesn’t care about the people and just wanted to line her pockets. Go back in time and I think you have to go quite a ways before you find a president that wanted to serve because he wanted to help the country. Look at congress. There are tons of Reps and Sens that enter congress with a semi-normal bank account and within a couple years are millionaires. Those jobs don’t pay well enough for that, so how does it happen?
Most politicians don’t enter politics for the purpose of making money. They have a calling for doing public service. This is not to say that they are not influenced by cash contributions. Unfortunately, campaigns have become very costly. Even so, the primary aim is to remain in office, not to make money.
Are you so cynical as to believe that people like Barack Obama and Al Gore were mostly in it for the cash they could take in?
I don’t think I can name a more certain cure for idealism than a career in politics, except perhaps a career as a lawyer. Come to think of it, there was a time when a substantial proportion of politicians were lawyers.
It is a bit troubling that so many millionaires are attracted to politics.
More troubling that so many BECOME multimillionaires after arriving at the troughs.
I’ll give you all credit in that this has been a very entertaining thread. The consensus seems to be that he will be impeached for a crime to be determined later. Fortunately, you all have been able to convict him (without a crime, no less), and throw him out of office (for excessive tweeting, I assume). The charge is of no concern because anyone you hate this much, must have committed something. Good job, we’ll see you at the next hanging.
@Jaxk – If we’re going to be fair, for myself and many here, it’s more along the lines of which is more likely
Scenario 1: Trump has committed a crime (or should have known a crime was being committed) during the campaign or since.
Scenario 2: Trump is 100% innocent and above board. That will hold true under any amount of scrutiny, so there’s nothing to worry about. All the smoke surrounding this is just hype or ulterior motives.
I just think #1 is more likely than #2. That’s it. No hanging, no impeachment, maybe a resignation. Whatever the next few years hold, hopefully we don’t come here again in my lifetime. That’s all I’m looking for.
Can we look at it from the other side? Do you really think Trump hasn’t committed a crime during any of this? As in, if you had to bet on it right now, and everything will become known, where’s your money?
To me that’s the core question. It can be dodged with “let’s wait and see” and that’s valid, but I find it hard to believe an objective look doesn’t at least lead towards it being more likely.
@Jaxk The consensus is that Mueller’s investigation must be allowed to take its course and having respect for Mueller we will accept his findings whatever they may be.
The other consensus is that Trump is the wrong man for the job.
@Jaxk hanging’s too good. Lynching is appropriate.
(Aren’t lynching and hanging the same things?)
@Jaxk Let’s face it…the left started screaming about impeaching Trump before he took office. Do the attitudes on here really surprise you that much?
Trump should be impeached for gross incompetence. Most of those elected as president rise to the occasion. They see the responsibility of the office. There was a lot of talk about how Trump would change his ways after being elected. Hasn’t happened, not gonna happen. Trump is the same person he was on his reality TV show – a cheap huckster. He lies constantly and will regularly contradict one day what he said the previous one. He has been busy undoing Obama’s legacy but, a year after being elected, has not done anything (which in some ways is fortunate) – no new health plan, no coal jobs, no infrastructure projects. Lots of talk about the opioid crisis but no action. The U.S. used to be viewed as the leader of the free world. By withdrawing from international agreements, Trump has diminished our role. This approach will not “make America great again”, quite the opposite.
@Dutchess III Lynching implies extrajudicial measures.
@seawulf575 “the left started screaming about impeaching Trump before he took office.”
Because even before he took office there were concerns about his ties to Russia and his willingness (rather his lack thereof) to separate his office from his and his family’s business interests.
@LostInParadise – Yes, I feel a bit foolish but it does surprise me. We’ve been down this road numerous times but in the past, it has always been about some misconduct. This time the misconduct seems completely irrelevant. The attitude here is that if you give Mueller enough of the best prosecutors in the country, an unlimited budget, and the single goal of prosecuting Trump for something (anything), they will be able to conjure up some charge. I can only hope it doesn’t work that way. Sadly whether you hate Trump or not this current course does not bode well for the country as a whole. The end justifies the means. Kinda scary.
If we are going to mention biases from the left, we should mention the right’s. The right sees Trump as infallible. His supporters always have, and always will. Because he is like a religion, to the right. Similarly to religion, fear drives it. If one is wrong about their religion, it means that they’re wrong about a lot of important things. That scares people. Trump’s supporters think like Trump. His ignorant rhetoric is parallel to their own beliefs. So. If he is exposed for what he is, it makes them feel like they have the wrong perspective on life. And so, they cling to his words for verification of their thoughts.
As for those who are upset about this “witch hunt,” your being willfully selective in what offends you.
Sorry but your projection of what Trump supporters want or believe simply doesn’t hold water. I know it makes them easier to hate if you assume they are religious idiots or fanatics of some kind but it doesn’t help to assume anyone that disagrees with you falls into that category. It does however, make it very difficult to have any rational conversation with you. So I won’t.
@seawulf575 Yes we started bitching about impeachment before he took office. How could anyone listen to him for 5 seconds and not see immediately how stupid and unqualified for any political position he is.
After a year, it’s even worse than we thought it would be.
We waited and waited for him to step up. But he has done everything but that.
Currently I heard he has 261 appointee (all requiring Senate approval” by next week not appointed. So that means 261 Federal organization that will not be able operate. They don’t have a head of the group so they will “Crash and burn” like he is doing with ACA.
I worked for a company many many years ago, the “death knell” of a department was when the didn’t receive next year’s on-going budget to support their business mission.
@Jaxk . My quite accurate “projection,” of Trump supporters, holds plenty of obvious water. And I don’t hate them, I pity them…
Your previous response was better than what I expected. And you made some good points. But Trump has to go. Yes. As I’ve already said “the ends will justify the means,” if this cancer (Trump) is cut from our nation…
In addition, I will repeat, that Trump is only in this mess, because of his ineptitude, and his inability to shut his stupid mouth… This drag net is self imposed…...
@Jaxk I think you strike nerves by voicing an opinion that is different from what is considered “normal” from many of these jellies. It is refreshing because, as it often happens when they respond to me, they really aren’t addressing your statements. They are going off on all sorts of tangents, but are entirely avoiding the point. It can be entertaining to watch them froth. Carry on.
@Dutchess_III I’m really not sure where to start with the response. I guess at the beginning. To be impeached, you have to have committed a crime. Those that have been screaming for impeachment since before Jan 20th could not and still cannot point to a single thing he has done that is worthy of impeachment. So to continue to scream about it makes those screaming look like whiny babies. You can try sugar coating it however you like, but it still comes off as irrational hatred.
Likewise, most of your comments could have applied to his predecessor as well. We that didn’t slobber all over him kept hoping he would do exactly what he implied (but never really said) he would do in the beginning….to change the way Washington DC works. Instead, what he did was violate the constitution repeatedly. He caused more division in this country than we have had since I can remember (and that goes back more than half a century). He doubled the national debt that was already ridiculously high because of HIS predecessor. He and the Dems had no problem blaming everything on Bush, but did worse than he ever did.
Yet those screaming about Trump doing nothing seem to prefer a president that doesn’t follow any law and feels he is above it. And he is because the Democratic party would always protect him since they don’t want to have to follow laws either.
@MrGrimm888 You amuse me as well. Your projections about Trump supporters really speak more to your narrow mind than anything related to reality. A couple weeks ago, all Trump supporters were neo-nazis, skinheads, and white supremacists. Today they are religious nuts. What will they be tomorrow? Oh, by the way…half the country voted for him. So what you are really saying is that half the country is mindless blobs that cannot think for themselves and can only believe what their leaders tell them. You are almost right, you just picked the wrong side of the aisle. And your description of religion speaks to a very disturbing mindset that you have. You have no clue about a true Christian belief, do you? I’m sorry for you.
There are crimes. Just waiting for them to come to light.
@Dutchess_III When it happens (they show criminal connections, he worked with Ukraine and Russian money to build his Golf courses and denied it) certain members will categorically claim “the left” ganged up on “poor little” Trump.
I just love this myth that Trump is somehow being railroaded out of office. As one by one his entire sleazball retinue is exposed for the the lying dimwitted criminals they are. The argument that Mueller’s investigation is a witch hunt merely because he has the resources to carry it out misses the point that if and when Trump is charged it will be for CRIMES and the proof against him is likely to be airtight. I find it baffling that anyone here believes that Trump can undergo close examination and emerge unindicted.
@seawulf575 . If you truly recalled my remarks about some in the right being neo-nazis, then you will remember that I made it a point to connect them with religion. So, you are wrong. I have been consistent, with my opinions on the right. If you look through some threads regarding religion, that I contributed to, you will again find consistency.
As far as “half the country” voting for Trump. Wrong again sir. More like a third. You were correct that I find that third ignorant, and deplorable who listen too closely to those who oppress them.
Again, you assigned me to the left, with your “wrong side of the aisle” comment. I am not a Democrat. If you must label me, “Trump hater” will suffice. If the last year and a half has pushed me in any direction, it is away not left or right.
I noticed that you couldn’t help but talk about Obama again. The fact less list of Obama’s “crimes,” and despicable acts only matters to you, and is irrelevant to the topic…
Not a chance. Even if was he would not and should not be convicted in the senate. Nixon would not have resigned if not for the WH taping system. Trump is no way as corrupt Bill Clinton and look how he avoided conviction in senate.
@cotus1 There is chance, because we (people outside of White House ) don’t know what Flynn knows or will testify to in court.
Comey’s removal, by the POTUS, for not stopping the investigation of Flynn means it could be obstruction of justice.
“It ain’t over till it’s over.” – - Yogi Berra
@cotus1 Bill Clinton was simply a horn dog. He let his dick control him.
Trump is all that (although I doubt he can get it up any more) and much, much more that is corrupt, perverted, stupid, dishonest and dangerous.
The guessing consensus seems to be that Trump will resign, then Pence will pardon him to absolve him of his crimes.
Then we sit back and watch.
^Or. We witness the first person to die from an ego injury. Trump’s incredibly fragile ego, has taken a beating. He may not survive another year of it…
Lots of empty seats at his Christmas tree lighting. If the Beach Boys retire, there won’t be a single band that will play at his functions. Maybe Pence will DJ…
Answer this question 
