Do you think some people are afraid to look too deeply, or honestly, into the things they believe?

When it comes to religion or politics,then the answer is a great big YES!

Or a great big, don’t discuss it at a funeral.

I think some people are just in denial. They probably know deep down somewhere that the existence of any type of afterlife is highly improbable. But they just cant break away from that comfort zone.

People who are closed off from the wonder and joy in their present lives use a distant heaven as part of their denial.

I am holding on to the belief that I am travelling through time. I can’t avoid reality true or not. I don’t know what else to make it out. I could admit that I am 40 and not 5000 year’s old , but then what? Something is clearly happening to me. Its a mystery otherwise. I’m clearly in ” The Twilight Zone.” Im open to novel explanations but i’m not going to let go of my beliefs that easily.

OK, they’re in denial.

But is it your or anyone else’s role to disabuse them of their fantasies?

Is it ethical to be critical of someone else’s irrationality? Isn’t that replacing their values with yours?

Religion, at least in the case you described, is best left undiscussed.

@elbanditoroso I totally agree with you on that, as long as they do not try and force those beliefs on me.

@SQUEEKY2 – 100% agree

Some and perhaps most people are incapable of seeing the truth in their religion.

The story in the Book of Mormon (BOM) never happened. There is no scientific evidence that any of it took place. It is preposterous to believe any of it when presented with facts and data collected by the Smithsonian, National Geographic and many other sources. Yet millions of people around the world believe it’s true.

I’m agnostic today directly from reading the BOM and discussing the many problems that I saw with Mormons in my home, on the streets and at Mormon Churches. I reason that if the MOB was just made up out of thin air by a twisted Joseph Smith, then how much of the Holy Bible is false?

She is in the middle of her grief. Cut her some slack.

I’m an atheist, but this is one occasion when I find religion helpful. When my friend died I did research on whether ghosts existed too, something I never did before. We all need something to make our pain bearable.

Let her think like that for at least a while.

You guys. Why are you acting like I actually said something to her? You know me better than that.

@Mimishu1995 it is not my place to open a discussion with her, or anyone else, about mystical beliefs, ever, unless they ask.
When prayers were said I bowed my head.
When an “Amen” was called for I said it.
When singing 3 verses of Amazing Grace was requested from the congregation I joined in.

I am not an asshole. Or..I try not to be.

I just found it fascinating that she thought I was being silly.

(((Hugs @RedDeerGuy1.))) I’ll travel through time witch you!

@Dutchess_lll OK, now I’m officially confused. What are you trying to ask? Your question makes us think that you are asking whether she is being irrational, which we all responded to. Are you asking if she is being irrational or if people are too stuck in their own belief in general?

And I don’t understand what she meant by saying you were silly. Maybe what she meant was “you know he and my dad like catfish.”

@gondwanalon..The Bible is just a collection of oral stories passed through generations until we discovered writing. It’s no more factual than Greek Mythology or Native American fables.

Imagine you read a poem every morning. Reading it filled you with purpose, you could go about your day feeling good and seeing the beauty in the world as if it were made for you alone. Your poem made choices easier, kept you content, and made you feel less alone. It measurably improved your life for years and years.

Would it matter what the poem was about? Would it matter if it was a true account, or you found out later that it was simply impossible?

Would it be better if it was a pill, or a song, or a person rather than a poem? What if a sense of honor moved you every day, or love, are those more provable than faith?

We all have our talisman. Not many are certain.

@Mimishu1995 “irrationality ” is the crux of this question, now that you mention it. How can a person recognize that YOU are being silly (irrational) but not recognized their own irrationality? Its curious to me.

She _said _ “Him and my Dad are fishing.” She wasn’t sayiing they both like fishing.

@Dutchess_lll I never beleaved that the Noah’s Ark story really happened or the parting of the Red Sea.

I always wondered why God requires faith. If God wants people to believe in him then why not show himself?

Also God must be male because a female God would not design a female body that requires an 8 pound baby to pass through such a small vagina. HA!

@Dutchess_lll ok. Thanks for clarifying.

It’s simple: she thinks her belief is the truth. She has God to believe in.

But who is to tell anyone what is to believe in and what not? Everyone has something they believe in. Theists believe there is a God. Buddhists believe there is another Being. Muslims believe in another Being. And atheists believe there is no God. Not to mention belief is sometimes more subtle than just religion. Pessimists thinks nothing good will happen. Cynics believe the world is going to shit. Optimists believe the world is all good… You get the picture.

What is irrational to you makes perfect sense to her. It’s just different viewpoint.

Yes. Fear is the driving force behind such things. We are ALL ignorant of the actual truth. Nobody knows why we’re here, or how we got here, or where we go (if anywhere) when we die.

Fear is a driving force behind many of the things that comprise our personalities.
Think about a fear of the dark. Isn’t that really just a fear of the unknown? Absence of light is harmless. We are instinctively cautious in the dark, because we are unaware of what dangers could be there. Ancient man could have fallen into a hole, gotten bit/attacked by an animal. That fear helps keep us safe.

I think fear is normal in most animals. What isn’t, is our higher brain function. I figure these two traits mixed, and confusion was the byproduct.

Humanity has a unquenchable desire to understand everything. Makes sense. The more knowledge we have, the better decisions we can make to avoid injury or death. Ultimately, death is what we are trying to elude. The only way we come close, is through reproduction. Getting a bit off topic…

Sanity is another variable. With the knowledge of our own mortality, and what it probably means to us, fear could overwhelm our senses if we can’t cope with or ignore the facts. Constantly thinking about our own demise is unproductive, and unhealthy to our psychology. Perhaps religion is a evolutionary tool to help keep us on the rails. A byproduct of the jumbled mess that our random existence creates.

As an agnostic I have no problem entertaining a more abstract idea of “god” even though I have zero information. I know it is speculation and only speculation. Thinking about “god” is an intellectual exercise.
A religious person is not sincere intellectually. They have experienced something they can’t explain and adopted religion or are unsure about it all but identify as religious for various social reasons. Many “bet” on religion as if there were stakes in the game, others use it as a weapon to justify actions or as a crutch to justify things to themselves. I do not think in sincere belief exists but I do think people have a sort of emotional alignment through fear, hope or guilt that leads to an irrational belief. Especially a system of beliefs that are culturally accepted and neatly packaged and ready for use. People are often simple creatures and the thought of not having answers in black and white is unsettling. They often want a cause to work for and feel meaning. Religion fills those gaps in an unsavory way. If belief was not manufactured by culture then why does religion follow cultural lines? I see people make the same steps that someone would into religion but into other things like political movements. That scares the shit out of me. Religion is just an annoyance. At least religious people for the most part are controlled and generally pacified.

I don’t have an issue with religious people as long as they don’t try to force their views on me. I usually do what Dutch mentions as far as bowing my head and miming words to hymns and prayers. It keeps the peace and does no harm. My problem is the huge chasm between what some people profess to believe and what they practice. How people who identify as fundamentalist Christians could vote for and support a guy like Trump is beyond words.

Take this heavenly golf course for example. Does it have any bunkers? Does it sometimes rain? Is your handicap magically improved? Do you ever get to the club house and its store of alcoholic beverages or are you doomed to play on and on and on and on constantly worried that you might bump into Trump. I just don’t think she has thought this through.

@flutherother, Right? And if they’re fishing, what are they going to do with the fish they catch? Eat them? Do they cook them first?

@Mimishu1995 I’m NOT trying to tell her what to believe in and what not to believe in. I’m not trying to tell anyone that, unless they open the discussion, and even then I just might demur rather than actually respond. It really doesn’t make any difference to me what people choose to believe.
I just find it very interesting that she recognized that I was being “silly” by asking her to tell him to fish for salmon and not cat fish, and yet didn’t recognize that she was just as silly to seriously suggest that he’s fishing or bowling or playing softball or whatever.
I don’t understand how she can reconcile the two…thus my question.

@NomoreY_A that chasm bothers me too.

“Afraid” is not the term I’d use. “Ignorantly stupid” is the term I’d use.

By choice.

@Dutchess_lll I think that when she said “silly” she might not really mean that you were being silly for suggesting they shouldn’t catch catfish, but that from her belief you can’t communicate with the dead that way. I have seen a lot of people thinking like that. Put it together and it makes more sense why she contradicted herself. But that’s only a speculation. All we have is “you are silly”, so we can’t be certain what she really meant.

That’s true but knowing her I think she meant it the way I think.

Yeah Dutchess. I’m not saying she is logical or something. I just try to find an explanation for why she did that…

At least it prompted a reasonably successful question!

What bothers me about your question is that you are good enough friends with them to call her ‘belligerant and unyielding’, but not good enough friends for you to be up front and honest about your religious beliefs. What’s up with that? I mean, if you don’t believe in an afterlife, why go through the social niceties of a funeral at all? It’s not like you believe in a heaven where he’s looking down with approval on you attending or chatting up his wife. (Not trying to be mean, I simply don’t understand the dichotomy.)

Burying the dead is a societal norm. What does religious faith or lack thereof have to do with anything? At any rate the funeral of a relative or friend is not usually conducive to philisophical arguments.

@KNOWITALL What would be the point of telling her? Besides, her husband and mine were close friends. She just came with the package, but I can barely stand the woman! She’s ignorant and bigoted. Think of the worst conservative, hypocritical, conspiracy theory oriented Christian you know and that would be her. It’s hard for me to be left alone with her for even a few minutes.
I go through the niceties out of respect for the living. Out of kindness. I have NO desire to cause someone distress, especially at a time like this, even if it’s someone I can’t stand.
Do you feel that that is wrong?

@Dutchess_III Just kind of felt like you were playing her out with the fish thing, but in reality kinda making fun of her beliefs.

No, I wasn’t. I was just going along.

And you haven’t told me why you think I should let my religious beliefs, or non-belief, known to her.
And you haven’t given me a reason why I shouldn’t go along with the niceties.

I think you did the right thing. I mean an agnostic or atheist going along or staying mum at a religious funeral is no different than a person of faith staying quiet at a secular funeral. I know how I would feel if I went to a funeral of a known non believer and some guy started preaching or handing out religious tracts. It’s just a matter of respect.

@Dutchess_III I get it, she’s not your friend, you were just being polite in a social situation.

Yes. But even if she was a friend, if I thought my lack of religious belief would upset her, I just wouldn’t tell her.
I would have never given my Mother even an inkling of my change of heart.

It’s funny, but I never said a word to any of my kids. I raised them all to believe in God. I never said a word to any of them, but they’ve all come to the same conclusion I did.

Wow. One time, while at my daughter’s house, one of the twins brought a children’s story book about Jona and the whale to me. Not sure what it was doing in her house, especially given her reaction when I started to read it. She became really angry and snatched the book out of my hands. If she’d listened carefully she would have noticed me asking the kid if any of this really made sense.
Later she blasted me with a text about how she didn’t want me brain washing HER children with all this crap about religion. It was a long tirade.
I texted back simply, “I am an atheist.”
I could almost feel the stun on the other end! This was a few months ago.

@Dutchess_III I know my friends religious beliefs or lack thereof, doesn’t matter what they are, but that they feel safe enough to discuss anything with me, that’s what matters. We have had intense discussions (esp regarding LGBTQ’s and SSM), and we’ve cried or prayed together, or like one gf, grieved over the loss of her unborn child which she had an ethical question about due to her religious beliefs. I just honestly can’t imagine not discussing it openly with my friends.

It all depends on the friends.
The woman in question would become highly indignant if I told her, and would never stop trying to reconvert me. She’d say, “How can you even think that way? It’s blasphemy! And you you do know you’re going to hell, right?” I know that she just would not shut up about it.

I had a lifelong friend on Facebook who cut me out of her friend’s list when she began to suspect I had become a non-believer. We hadn’t hung out together IRL for many years, though.

I know the type Dutch, but we need to keep in mind that things like that are a double edged sword. As you may know I’m agnostic myself, but I try if possible to be tolerant of other peoples views. One reason I left Y!A is the hard core atheist type who would trash religious folks without mercy. Crap like, “Go back to the trailer park you uneducated moron”, or “Why don’t you do us a favor and kill yourself? Maybe your Jebus will come down and save you”. In my view, garbage like that is just as inexcusable as the, “You’re a hell bound heathen for not believing” crap that issues forth from a lot of believers. Flip sides of the same coin, and they can’t even see it. A real trip at times.

@NoMore Agreed. I wouldnt do that to anyone, in fact it’s a major turn off for people who are simply questioning.

I agree too. I have a young friend on FB who used to do that. Well, since I half raised him I clocked him on it. He was surprised to learn I had become an Atheist! And I think I got through to him because he quit.

Why do you think people feel empowered to do that to others though? I live in a red state so I’ve heard the Nazi rhetoric & Muslim rhetoric, heck even Satanist rhteoric but when I saw that Question about the Jews running Hollywood, I couldnt believe the phrasing which I honestly took as religious baiting. Maybe its because people feel anonymity gives them a free pass to be douchebags? No matter the religion or choosing not to believe, it all deserves respect just like the human beings who type the posts. Just flabbergasts me what some ppl feel comfortable saying here when it’s brutal to just read. Sad.

I think people use their beliefs as a blind. Some skirt to hide behind.
At their base they’re Aholes and they use their beliefs to justify it. A Christian who is an Ahole would be just as big an Ahole if they switched to atheism.

An anus cavity by any other name is still an anus cavity.

@Dutchess To me they’d be worse because using the label of christian implies a code of ethics with pretty firm directives.

There’s a word for that @KNOWITALL. It’s hypocrisy. But hypocrites don’t see themselves as hypocrites. They see themselves as righteous.
I think humans have an instinctive need to feel superior to other people. All animals have a hierarchy of some kind. That need manifests itself in different ways, and with different excuses.

Bingo. I’m religious I’m superior to you immoral atheists. I’m an atheist I’m better educated than you stupid Bible thumpers. Etc. Etc.

Yes. At at the bottom of it all, they’re the same. They’re just common, every day assholes.

@NomoreY_A Preach! That’s exactly it ladies. Neither is right.

I’m no preacher but I experienced that kinda crap over at Y!A over and over. Lol

On edit you both have a point. Not taking sides or attacking either of you. I’m just speaking rhetorically and I’m sure both of you ladies have experience of the kind of people I’m talking about on both sides of spirituality fence. Whether you believe or not is not my business.

@NomoreY_A lol, Preach it means “tell it like it is” in this case, not that you’re an actual preacher.

I’m a christian but not a normal one. I don’t have a problem with LGBTQ’s and I rarely attend services, I hate the whole ‘pretend you’re perfect’ aspect of the social life, and the hypocrisy that I see every single day, the judging of others as worthy or not, the holier-than-thou….it’s not about that to me.

Dutchess is my pal here and on fb, we get each other on that level.

That funeral thread is turning into a display such as we mentioned above. “It’s ridiculous to stop when a funeral procession passes by!”
“Around here, it is considered the height of rudeness NOT to stop”
“Well, you’re dumb.”
“No, YOU’RE dumb!”
“No, you are.”
“YOU!!!”

SMH.

@Dutchess_III Because you ask questions weird….lol, jk jk jk I thought it was kind of interesting, do they even do funeral processions in Cali or coastal areas? I’m afraid to ask now!

IDK! I was surprised that they don’t do it everywhere.

Go ahead and ask. I’ll hide under a table and try to be a good witness.@KNOWITALL

@NomoreY_A What part of the world are you in new pal? Do they do funeral processions there? Heck no, I’m not asking on that thread, once you get a few of them started it turns into a mob…lol

I’m in Central Tx. Grew up in Austin and lived most of my life there. Moved closer to Waco a few years back , cost of living got too high in Austin. And we have to pull off for funeral processions. Think it’s a state law.

I know what you mean about “mob” lol. Still pretty mellow here as opposed to Y!A though.

Ahhhh, makes so much sense, no wonder I feel a ‘kinship’. What was the main issues there? What happened here, imo, is that I didn’t realize this was a mostly liberal, non-Christian site….or at least it feels that way most of the time and in the past it was even more aggressively so. So my mistake, I just decided to try again recently, then I head of a mass exodus and some of those people were ones I clashed with. It’s like once I said I was christian, not even a very good one, I started getting slammed repeatedly and you know us southern girls, I got my back up and started giving it back….lol

Well hang in there! Davy Crockett once said, be sure you’re right then go ahead! Give ‘em what fer KNOWIT…!

I bash religion sometimes but not people. I found that simply stating I was conservative drew personal attacks here at times as if just the label was enough to know exactly where I stood on issues which is not in any way the case.

As far as Y!A it was pretty much the intolerance I saw on both sides of the fence that made me leave. I don’t know why people can’t discuss spiritual issues like adults sans all the Jr High vitriol. Maybe it’s gotten better but I doubt it.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Same. Institutional religion is NOT for me. I completely understand that, that’s how it was for me using the word “christian” they assumed I hate gays and hated Obama, all kinds of things.

@NomoreY_A People are really weird about religion anymore, but then people twist it up pretty bad, too.

I am happy to report that since I moved to Red Deer that I have not been harrased to join a religious group.

@MrGrimm888 Excellent observations and I think your analysis of human nature is spot on. I had the similar thoughts recently.

I was thinking that religion really seems to serve the need of calming man’s fear of the unknown. As much as science seeks to dispel myth and replace it with facts there will always be unanswered questions. Man seems to seek a sort of certainty. Maybe it’s a need for security, and certainly i and fear of the unknown. If religion becomes obsolete it cannot really be replaced with science because science will always have incomplete answers, hence, no certainty. If religion becomes obsolete it will be replaced with something else. What will that something else be? Who knows…it could be something worse.

Well, most of us here on Fluther don’t need religion to calm our fears. I don’t mind the uncertainty. In my opinion, religion was invented as a way to control the masses—by fear and threats.

You create something to fear, then you create the solution to calm those fears.

I don’t think it’s so much fear. I think it’s a way to deal with a lack of meaning. For some a world without existential purpose is a bitter pill. The need to have purpose defined is important to those who cannot find it for themselves. I think this more than anything else is why religion has the staying power that it does.

Interesting thoughts, but I don’t think any of that’s true for most theists I know, myself included.

And further, believing is a CHOICE we make for our own reasons, not necessarily the same reasons as anyone else. Many of us question things growing up, some continue to practice and believe, others don’t.

For example, of six of my mothers siblings, one passed away, one doesn’t believe, two questioning, two believe. All raised right here in the Bible Belt, in church, in a semi-religious home environment full of mixed politics & freethinking.

@ARE_you_kidding_me but for many of them it IS fear. It’s fear of going to hell if they don’t “believe.” They can beat their kids and wife, be a drunkard and an asshole in the community, but they’re safe as long as they “believe.”

@KNOWITALL is one of the few Christians that embodies my ideal of a Christian. She’s kind, forgiving and non-judgemental. In my experience, most militant Christians are just the opposite of that.

People who do that are not “believers” they are “justifiers.”

@KNOWITALL has my typical christian stereotype, that is the reasonable ones way outnumber the unreasonable ones by a large margin. I live in the deep south, most people here are christians.

That isn’t my experience @ARE_you_kidding_me. And I come from a long history of devout Christianity. I gave it up in 2006 or so. There were too many things about “God” that didn’t make any sense. None at all. I slowly came to the realization there was only one answer that answered all the questions. It was sad, though. Like losing an old friend.

Awwwww, ya’ll are too sweet, but it’s all because I was raised by a bunch of christian hippies who told me I could believe anything I wanted, do anything I wanted, live anywhere I wanted and with that complete & utter freedom, lots of love plus the example they all set for me in their own lives, I became the person I am.

https://youtu.be/iKEZoY-TMG4
(no offense to our religious conversation)

Well I mean only crazy people would want to live in Kansas so…
Personally the idea of a biblical “GOD” fell through somewhere around the time the tooth fairy and the easter bunny were revealed. You could say I was born not to believe but I do get why many do. I just think it circumvents rational thought in a way that leads many into other irrational beliefs. Smart people too because it actualky takes creativity and intelligence to make those cognitive leaps.

But people flip flop all the time. I’ve read about formerly devout Pastors who become atheists, atheists who turn religious, for various and sundry personal reasons. Go figure.

BUT @NomoreY_A have you ever seen Rep/con suddenly become a Dem/lib?

I think that conversion from atheist to Christianity was much more common in days past when it was a social horror if you didn’t believe in God.

I identified more as a republican before Obama. That party just freaked out so bad and in such ugly ways I put as much distance between myself and them as I could.

@NomoreY_A Absolutely correct. I went through many periods of belief, disbelief, fervor and back thru them all again.

The concept of a supreme being, be it singular or multiple, came about in an attempt to explain the unexplainable. Religion came about to control the masses through fear, and to collect money from these fearful masses so that the clergy could have shelter and something to eat without having to work like the masses did.

@kritiper Regardless of ‘how it came about’, that doesn’t mean it’s still used for that purpose today. What do I have to fear? I don’t give money to churches either.

Well, do you fear the thought of going to hell, @KNOWITALL? Do you behave the way you do with that thought always in the back of your mind? (I think you’re just a good person, and would be with or without that fear. But there are some Christians who behave only because of their fear of hell. I have actually heard that argument, that if it wasn’t for our belief in God we’d all be abusive, murdering rapists….those kinds of Christians scare me the most….)

@Dutchess_III Nah, I’m not a person who is motivated by fear or guilt, probably why I’m not the typical christian. What I fear more is ‘good’ Christians who ruin it for everyone, like the family with the 13 tortured children.

Believe it or not, the thought I keep in my mind at all times, or try to, is WWJD. He would be kind, he would help people, he would turn his cheek instead of get angry (probably my biggest issue), he would call out the wrongdoers and hypocrits, etc… I try to treat people as I would be treated, a basic childhood lesson.

I thought so! I think people are all who they are whether they have a religious affiliation or not. Some people are just kind, and recognize the importance of that, and some people are just jerks, and they’d all be that with or without religion.

@KNOWITALL I didn’t mean to imply that it’s still used for that purpose today. If it had never come about, it might not exist today. Same logic.