What are your feelings about the SOTU address last night?

I’m not sure why anyone would watch this.

Good speech, perhaps not 100% accurate, but a good rallying America first theme.

I managed to avoid seeing any of it apart from replays on this morning’s news. It is uncomfortable watching an immoral showman and unrepentant liar giving the State of the Union address.

Didn’t watch it.

Selling more red baseball caps with MAGA on the front. Speech was to get his followers cheering and feeling good.

Didn’t watch it but, to be fair, I don’t believe I have ever watched one. I consider them to be a waste of time, much like the Grammys and other awards shows where people be fervently kissing their own asses.

From what I have read this morning it (and I am sure I will be hearing about for some time) was exactly what I assumed it was, like all previous ones, nothing but one hour plus long self serving event where Trump spent the entire time bragging on a bunch of shit that he had very little to do with but was willing to take credit for mixed in with calls for bipartisanship which Trump defines as agreeing to do things his way so is never gonna happen. So, basically 239lbs of crap is a 100lb bucket.

My time was better spent watching Big Bang Theory reruns.

Oh, you mean the “State of the Uniom” address? Not a lot that was said that was really new. Good speech though overall 10/10

Very good speech. Not boring at all. Captivating. Brought tears to my eyes a few times.

Great. Fantastic.
Had a massive orgasm.
It was as if he reached out of the screen to grab my pussy.

Better than his usual rants. But a great or uplifting speech has about as much chance coming from the Trump admimistration as would a great or uplifting idea. Besides, it no longer matters. By now, no degree of eloquence will ever compensate for the manifest appalling deficiencies of character.

It makes me sad that even in a major, scripted, speech; facts don’t matter. I try to give people a pass for misspeaking or not completely understanding what they’re saying. We all do that.

But this speech was written and vetted. There’s no excuse or misunderstanding.

AP Fact Check for SOTU.

@stanleybmanly “Better than his usual rants” Yeah well, when you begin by setting the bar so low that worms have to duck to go under it then it is not hard to show improvement.

I had Carstairs masturbate me while watching, he used almost a whole thing of kleenex this time…all in the name of service

Evidently Melania was not happy with the speech either. Not going to post any particular link but look to your favorite news organization (Fox viewers will need to expand their horizons here to find it) and put in “Melania Trump stays seated after husband praises ‘faith and family’”.

Even she knows bullshit when she hears it.

One of the most disconcerting thing I have found in his speech is his call for Congress to allow for a purge of those who do not bow down to his every tweet whim.

Trump said. “So tonight, I call on Congress to empower every Cabinet secretary with the authority to reward good workers and to remove federal employees who undermine the public trust or fail the American people.”

Doesn’t sound like he’s purging those who don’t listen to him. Sounds like he’s saying “We need to make this country great, if you don’t agree, you have no business working in government” as you’ll just hinder it. Why would you want people who don’t want to fix America, working for America?

That’s what Civil Service regulations are about, and why they were put in place—to eliminate the opportunities for politicians to reach down & fire YOUR mailman for voting the “wrong way”. It is a stupid proposal on the part of people who once again do not understand the government they supposedly lead nor its laws. Has his performance thus far demonstrated that Trump (or the bulk of his talentless crony appointments) proven they can be trusted with decisions on who does or does not “want to fix America”?

Or for that matter @SergeantQueen why do you assume that someone who opposes Trump and his Swamp Rats doesn’t want to fix America? Just because someone disagrees with either the process or the actions necessary does not mean they love their country any less.

From a personal perspective I view anyone who impedes,delays or even sabotages the actions of Trump and his cronys as a valiant, red-blooded American patriot, a freedom fighter if you will, who stands on the front line opposing tyranny and the rape of the American system.

I never said that they don’t want to fix America. I’m just saying that if you are the President, and you are trying to do things, and you constantly have people going against you for no other reason besides simply not liking you, you aren’t going to accomplish a whole lot.
And I’m not saying that everyone who simply doesn’t like him should be fired either. If you don’t like him, but are able to put that aside to do your job, while still thinking of America as a whole, that’s a good thing.

I think you guys don’t like him, come from a biased point of view, and whenever you hear him talk you assume it’s gonna be shit. Which is why none of what you are saying is correct. Listen to him speak from an open minded view instead of a “half of what he’s saying is bullshit” view.

“besides simply not liking you” – no, that’s not it at all.

Yes it is

Of course I don’t like him. But I give him credit last night for “sticking to his script.” My dislike for him THIS TIME has to do with the fact that the script itself is defective. By now it comes as no surprise that he didn’t catch the fkup, but the fact that the gitch passed through means that his staff is as inept as he himself.

The statement that brought the purging of people into the speech involved the VA. They have let go of a bunch of people that just weren’t doing their jobs. And honestly, as a tax payer, I want those in the government to do their jobs. I don’t believe there is a lot of partisan statement there…just wanting my tax dollars used smartly, not being wasted.

If anything needs a freak ton of purging its the VA. I’ve read way too many articles talking about how a guy died because a nurse was playing games on a computer, or because they were left unattended or whatever. The VA seems to be the worst place for a Veteran to go.

That depends on the veteran. You know as Commander in Chief, your President in the event of a heart attack will be rushed to Bethesda. And if you believe for one second he will receive the same attention YOU might expect—.

The point about that gaffe on hiring and firing people is this:

Of course we want to attract competent government workers and eliminate the screwups. But the Civil Service Commission was established SPECIFICALLY to prohibit politicians and their appointees from interference in such decisions. You and I (perhaps) may be forgiven for forgetting this tidbit from our civics lessons, but no COMPETENT politician would dare to imply otherwise. But here we have the Donald announcing in THE STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS that he’s once again out to break the law.

I’m uncomfortable with the United States building more nukes. I thought we were passed that.

They’re going to be built if for no other reason than most of those in existence are old and rusting.

And let’s talk about the VA and why it’s in such a sorry state. Now that’s a question worthy of consideration!

@stanleybmanly Yes. At one time the VA was considered the model for a universal healthcare system.

@SergeantQueen It’s not a question of liking or disliking Trump and the Republicans who use him to further their selfish goals. It’s a question of being profoundly disturbed by the direction they are leading the country in and the damage that is being done to America’s reputation in the world, the hurt to individual families and the eroding of environmental protections.

If the Republicans and Trump are so concerned with the quality of American life, why are they willing to accept children being murdered by guns every damn day? And this is not being done by immigrants.

@janbb I find it funny that you describe what’s going on in the country that way. When Obama was in office, over 70% of the population felt the country was going in the wrong direction. Sounds like you were in the 30% that liked it. But I have to say, I see statements you make and I echo them about the Dems. When the Dems held power, they did things to further their own selfish goals. Our reputation in the world was suffering badly. Middle class America was getting wiped out…hurting the individual families. And if the Dems are so concerned with the welfare of the people, why are they willing to accept, and in fact encourage hundreds of thousands of unborn babies being exterminated each year? And none of this is to say your opinion is wrong or that the Repubs are great or anything like that. Isn’t it funny how we can look at either side of the aisle and see the exact same things?

@stanleybmanly and @janbb having dealt with the military healthcare directly, I can assure you it is not all that great. It is those dealings that have convinced me that universal healthcare would be a huge mistake. What’s going on in the VA these days is really not anything better or worse than it has been for the past several decades…it is just being broadcast more.

Some of the VA hospitals are horror stories, like Arkansas, trust me. I wouldn’t let my dog stay there, let alone our blessed vets. I’m not partial to either party but Trump is right on about getting these lazy belligerent and NEGLIGENT people out of healthcare.

@KNOWITALL I don’t doubt it but I’m curious. Is he planning to give more funding to improve the VA?

@janbb that is a good question. I’m not sure more funding is the whole problem. And funding would have to come from Congress. But I would think that to draw good people, you will have to pay a decent wage.

Couldn’t bear to watch it. Can’t stand the sound of his voice. I will grant that after a year he’s putting on a modestly better presidential show.

@Janb Let me look around on that, I have a family member who knows more re the VA.

I didn’t watch. I am more interested in hearing the unscripted thoughts of a politician. If you REALLY want to know what Trump thinks, and what thought process motivates his agenda, look no further than his Twitter ravings. The SOTU is just a show. Trump has ,at best, a tentative grasp on reality. Why would anyone want to hear his opinion on the state of anything?

If he said anything reasonable, it’s because it didn’t come from his brain, just his mouth. He has a penchant for back tracking, or strait lying about his past statements, or speeches. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him contradict some of what he said before weeks end…

I’m sorry for those who wasted their time watching that puppet show…. I did find amusement looking at pictures of the faces of the people in the crowd. The common expression seemed to be disgust, or feigned happiness. I imagine it similar to a Nero fiddle concert, performed by Caligula in a orangutan suit…

Klan leader David Duke liked Trump’s speech. White supremacist leader Richard Spencer liked Trump’s speech.

If you liked Trump’s speech, that’s your team.

Deny it all you want, but this is not news to reasonable people.

Way to boil it down to its essentials @Call_Me_Jay !

Everything @funkdaddy said. Couldn’t have said it better.

In short, here are my feelings about the SOTU: Joe Kennedy’s response summed them up perfectly. It’s only 13 minutes long. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend it, even if just to see what someone representing the other party is saying.

Joe Kennedy? You mean Limp Dick?

My feeling about the State of the Union address?
Fuck that asshole.

@SergeantQueen . Regarding your Kennedy statement. Relevance on any level?...

At least Joe Kennedy can see his dick.

^ I’m surprised he was allowed to make that speech with cum on his mouth.

@johnpowell and he can slobber on it!

@SergeantQueen: Do read @funkdaddy‘s link before you are old enough to vote. In a fully scripted and vetted speech, to have so many inaccuracies is, at best, an embarrassment.
As far as “simply not liking him” goes, there are reasons.
The Nazis in Charlottesville were not “very good people”.
He doesn’t “know more about ISIS than the Generals.”
A border wall would be ineffective stopping undocumented immigrants from entering the country, as the vast majority enter by air.
And so on.
And so on.
Most of the conservatives here with whom we argue have opinions based on years of political observation and deductive reasoning.
We are all biased. It’s the human condition.

And your remark about Mr Kennedy does not, in any way, enhance your credibility.

@SergeantQueen Why would you call Joe Kennedy a limp dick? What is your reasoning, support to call him names?

@chyna Perhaps she’s had experience with him? ~

Well. She’s a minor. So hopefully, no personal experience….

Apparently some Fox News contributor called him that on Twitter in an attempt to deride him, I presume because she [the contributor] couldn’t think of an actual critique for the speech he gave. I think that’s what SQ’s referring to.

Edit—didn’t mean to speak for you, @SergeantQueen! I see you’re typing out a response now.

Oh my god you guys it was a joke about something someone else said not a personal thing at all. Rude

exactly what @sobresaut said

^^ Repeating someone else’s lame comment doesn’t make it any more valid. Just sayin’

Wasn’t attempting to make it more valid.

Without attribution, @SergeantQueen, (I don’t listen to or watch Fox News) of course we’re going to think it was from you.

I don’t either. Just saw a thing on facebook about it. Figured it got coverage on other news outlets

TIME OUT! Not worth fighting about. Everyone sit back and take a deep breath. I will expect an apology from each of you to the others tomorrow morning!

Back to the main topic: Dufus now claims that those in attendance who neglected to clap for him are treasonous. Have you ever seen anyone so desperate to be worshiped? Another example of our President being Presidential.

Geesh it was a joke. I thought he was weird with his wet look lips and if he wasnt a Kennedy he would have been mocked more thoroughly, regardless of party.

Forget the SOTU Address: Trump Wants a Big Military Parade

NPR -Parade down Pennsylvania Avenue

All for the troops of course.

Is he gonna wear a specially designed military uniform with all kinds of gold braids, doo-dads and fake medals and a big-assed peaked cap or possibly a Shako?

Seriously, when you think of a communist country one of the main things that come to mind is their Military Parades. Think NK, China, Russia, Think missiles loaded on trucks, Think Goosestepping cadres of troops. Think potent symbols of power. Just Think one big Dick Fest.

He wants a military parade to support the troops get over it. It’s a good thing.
Jeez. People get mad at presidents for not showing enough support for troops and then one does and you compare him to a communist. Like do you guys not slow and actually think?

Daddy is doing a fine job at presidency, and I look forward to voting for him once I’m 18

The Orangutan is just jealous of North Korea, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany

Nah, he’s just trying to show support for his country. like a good Daddy

For the Vaterland.

@SergeantQueen Ah, I so miss the naivety and innocence of youth. Hold on to it, it is too soon trampled on by reality.

No, I don’t believe so. This is all about Trump. Nothing else. No matter what means he uses to justify it, it is just about him and presenting himself as the ruler to the country and to the world.

Personally I think he would look right at home like Putin, Mao or Un

I don’t want to become an uneducated person, who hates Trump because they are too lazy to do their own research and look into things on their own. Only wants to follow the Corrupt News Network. He’s a great president and comparing him to a communist just proves how ridiculous and stupid you are

Too late.

Do you seriously think Trump gives a fuck about the members of the military? No. The military is just a club, a tool with which to impose his will. They are the cannon fodder sent in to terrorize others into submission, to further his aims and increase his power and profit. If he really want to show his support he should try putting all that money going to be spent both planning and executing a parade into increasing their pay or providing adequate post war treatment for the vets, not putting all that money into a public display to show his bluster and hide his sexual inadequacy..

LOL @ragingloli You are the one comparing him to a communist with no real evidence.

Oh, come off it @rojo we both know Trump is one of the most patriotic presidents we’ve had in a while, that’s why the majority of the military support him.

Sites full of uneducated liberals. Figures

From James Leroy Wilson:

“Perhaps Samuel Johnson’s most famous quotation is “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” The point, as I always understood it, is that appealing to loyalty to one’s own country is the act of a demagogue, of one who will say and do anything to gain public approval and political power. Primarily, it casts those who disagree as unpatriotic, hostile to the institutions and interests of their own country. Honest disagreement becomes character assassination. Underneath the appeal is the exploitation of bigoted or prejudiced feelings of the masses.”

I think what you want to say, is that if you don’t support trump you are a commie.
Shouldn’t be in America if you don’t support America.
If you have no respect for the country, military, or president, get out. Got no place for you here.

@rojo that’s the stupidest thing I’ver ever heard. Why the hell would you not want a patriotic president? Like are you not thinking?

And, no, we both do not know that. I believe he is anything but patriotic. He is a narcissistic braggart, a bully, a con-man, a inveterate liar, a master manipulator who has learned how to push all the right buttons to get the simple minded to follow him. A patriot he is not.

And I have lived through that same infantile, ‘America, love it or leave it” attitude that you express before. Now, go drink your watered down beer and listen to Merle Haggard ag’in an git yer bowels in an uproar by punching out those who disagree with your limited view of the world.

I am sorry you think that Mr. Wilsons’ statement is the stupidest thing you have ever heard. It describes your Trump and his manipulation of patriotism to a tee. See, you have already fallen for it and are yourself using it to ”;;;cast(s) those who disagree as unpatriotic, hostile to the institutions and interests of their own country.”

I want a president who is truly FOR our country, not some faux-patriot who is in it for himself alone.

Trump plays to an audience with a fifth grade education and hopes no one notices he is fleecing the USA.
“Coal is clean” means he had Donnie Jr and Eric invest in old “penny on the dollar” coal mines !

@SergeantQueen – I’m wondering if you actually want to know why people don’t like Trump, or if you’re genuine in thinking he’s hated because of some character flaw in the people here. It’s possible you’re just trolling, but if you want actual opinions, or facts, they can be provided.

I don’t want to become an uneducated person, who hates Trump because they are too lazy to do their own research and look into things on their own.

I’d love to have a discussion about the research you’ve done to come to your opinions. Seriously, I’d like to understand.

I think you’ll be surprised if you get outside the opinions expressed by others and look at the numbers and actions rather than interpretations. Looking at facts can lead to your own informed opinions so you don’t have to rely on those of others.

we both know Trump is one of the most patriotic presidents we’ve had in a while, that’s why the majority of the military support him.

Troop support for Trump sits around 44% which is not a majority. That number looks good only when compared to his support from the general public. Or from women. Or internationally. Or those with a college education.

He’s historically unpopular and divisive.

Trump actively worked to not serve in the military, getting 5 deferments from the draft. The last of which was for medical issues (Politifact source discusses both sides)

——

But Trump had a physical exam in September 1968. He had taken one less than two years earlier that did not disqualify him for service as we can tell from his 1-A classification in July 1968. However, his second physical was followed in October with a new classification, 1-Y. That designation put him near the bottom of any call-up list. It meant he would only be drafted if there were a national emergency.

Until recently, the only detail on record about that shift was it was medically related. After his comments about McCain, Trump said it had to do with bone spurs in his heels. Trump reportedly was active in college sports, playing baseball, tennis and squash.

——-

These aren’t interpretations of facts, these are facts you can interpret for yourself.

If you honestly want to understand, there’s raw information out there. You can also look at the man’s actions and compare them to history to find out if he’s all the things you say he is.

If you already have done the research, then a more persuasive argument would include sources.

@SergeantQueen You may as well give up trying to convince anyone here. As you see, anyone who doesn’t agree has a ‘fifth grade education’ or some other moronic label. I’ve literally heard the military and all Reps called every name in the book, including christians, so you’ll just frustrate yourself. I’m an independent and any time you try to have rational bipartisan conversation, it always degenerates to namecalling. Good luck if you continue to try to inject something into this echo chamber of hate.

Cancel this proposed Trump parade and give the money to the VA. The thought of seeing Trump, a guy who boasts of his good health and who wangled five medical deferments from military service, taking the salute is enough to make the dead at Arlington turn in their graves.

@KNOWITALL – Wow, that doesn’t seem fair. I’ve had several good conversations with people I disagree with, including yourself.

It’s also a very different sentiment than you expressed just a few weeks ago. I’m sorry to hear that’s eroded.

@KNOWITALL Such an over-generalized and untrue statement. I, and I believe most here, am convincible if you can provide factual evidence to either support your position or to show where ours breaks down. And you know the name calling goes both ways, sometimes we don’t even realize we are doing it but no matter, it is offensive to some and that is enough. And, to your final point, nothing above indicates to me that @SergeantQueen has attempted to inject anything into the conversation that can be shown to be true or correct but only to vilify those of us who have not succumbed to Trumps machinations that have dominated his time in office.
As for the hateful “echo chamber of hate” statement I am not sure where to go from there.

@SergeantQueen “He wants a military parade to support the troops…”

Yeah, right.

lLke he wanted to fuck a porn star because he didn’t want to inconvenience his wife after she had just had his child?

(Redacted) I just don’t care enough to argue.

@SergeantQueen
No, I am comparing him, and rightfully so, to all the other vain egotistical strongman tyrants, that put on these parades to show off their personal power.
Wanting to put on military parade, increasing the nuclear weapons stockpile, lying about the number of people present at his inauguration, lying about the number of people watching his “state of the union address”, calling people who refuse to applaud his bragging “treasonous”, those are all symptoms of the same thing, of a man with unwarranted self importance, who wants everyone else to acknowledge his “greatness” and stroke his ego until he metaphorically ejaculates in his own mouth, because he loves the taste of his own juice.

@SergeantQueen, your vitriol is way out of proportion to your knowledge.
Pay some taxes, then look at the tax breaks he has given to billionaires. Raise a child or two, then figure out how to buy medical insurance as the prices keep rising. No, not because of Obama, because of this administration supporting and defending large insurance companies.
Have some life experience and speak from that, instead of spouting stupid (yes, flat out stupid) slogans about the press that you heard from…your parents? The president?
Fluther has had young members before who actually did their own balanced research before expressing opinions. It’s not that your opinions are unpopular, here, it’s that you present them with no logic, no backing, and a lot of playground defensiveness.

My generation fought pretty hard for you to have that vote that you plan to squander on blind obedience. It’s a shame. I don’t ask that you agree with me, but that you think for yourself before casting that vote. Do your due diligence and find out what is going on.

You expressed concern about the VA. How much will it cost to have any positive impact?
How much will a parade cost? How much do his many vacations cost? How many dollars are not being spent on the VA because people who don’t need the breaks are not paying those tax dollars into the economy?

Stop acting out like a child and become an adult before you vote. Arm yourself with facts and numbers. The information is out there. Find it and interpret it.

Trump is the perfect example of what patriotism has come to mean in today’s America. It is an excuse to substitute blind emotion for rational thought. If your head is empty, it should come as no surprise when the bulk of your vocalizations boil down to jingoism and endless references to emotive symbols like “our beautiful beautiful flag”. Trump’s rhetoric is about stringing together a bunch of slogans and always the required dose of crude and vacuous insults to season the tirade and distract attention from the mindless absence of believable substance. The bulk of the population looks on in disbelief that anyone would fall for it. But the one thing for which our President is useful is in demonstrating just how many hollow receivers there are out there tuned in to his transmissions.

All this arguing is exactly why Putin helped Don into the office.

Trump threatened to shut down the government again. Last I read, that costs $900 million/day. And of course, the military he claims to love is also shut down.

I used to think that it was crazy that people would let themselves be ruled by a dictator, like in North Korea. Here in America, it is clear that some people prefer it. What an odd planet…

@MrGrimm888: “All this arguing is exactly why Putin helped Don into the office.”

Really?

@MrGrimm888: “Trump threatened to shut down the government again.”

This is a good explanation of why we shouldn’t use the “government shutdown” language. It’s only stopping the good parts of what a government does.

@funkdaddy I agree, it IS a very different sentiment than I expressed three weeks ago. Since them I’ve seen a sunday school preacher called out as a possible pedophile, every ounce of pride in my country mocked, been accused of being a Trump lover and bashed continuously when it’s not even accurate, seen others mocked and called names even on this thread for daring to express an opinion that doesn’t follow the herd’s thoughts. It’s ridiculous.

Even @canidmajor “My generation fought pretty hard for you to have that vote that you plan to squander on blind obedience. ”
Honestly, I’d say thank you for your service, but I’d be mocked again. On another recent thread patriotism or flag respect or soldier worship is not okay. You all constantly contradict yourselves. If Freedom of Speech protects people who crap on the flag of this country, and you sit in righteous indignation agreeing with it, then it should protect the freedom of speech here, thus a reply of “I disagree but if you’d like to discuss futher via PM, I’m happy to” is more appropriate and respectful. Not all soldiers are Reps or Dems, but they served, and for that they earned my respect, which is not the same as blind obedience.

Bottom line is if the GOP was wrong for calling Mrs. Obama an orangutan in heels, you’re all wrong for calling Trump names. You can’t be hypocrits and expect people like me not to say something, because I always will. Unless you want this to be a mob mentality, echo chamber, you should encourage ALL of us to participate, discuss and maybe try to change our minds via respectful discourse.

I’m 45 years old, never been to jail, have an IRA and 401k, and I’ve voted several times, for various parties-even registering voters on a regular basis. I don’t have a fifth grade education, I’m involved in politics as are other family members and I’m not in a cult just because I’m christian. And for the LAST time, just because of all the things I am (which I am open and honest about), don’t ever call me a racist because of any of your foolish reasons, Trump voter, white, middle America, etc….none of those things make me or ANYONE a racist. The way the insults come off you keyboard warriors, like pedophile and racist, cross the line.

@KNOWITALL On another recent thread patriotism or flag respect or soldier worship is not okay. If you are going to add my question to this discussion I’d like to remind you that my question was about an innocent business man receiving threats of bodily harm to himself and his family as well as threats of arson to his business because his flag was flown incorrectly for a few hours.

@SergeantQueen Somebody may have posted this already so sorry if it’s a repeat. The military doesn’t love Trump back and this is why.

He is not patriotic. He only stands for himself. He really couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the rest of the country, except for what it can do to make him even richer.

@Aethelwine That in no way changes the validity of my post, in fact it reinforces the hypocritical nature of many threads.

@KNOWITALL you are casting a wide, all-inclusive net, and that is really unfair. Who’s being “vicious” now? Geez.

@KNOWITALL Concerning my question again, the only people I was calling out as racists were the ones who were being racist. Saying “go back to where you came from” or “towel head” is racist. Saying you love the flag is not being racist. It’s the actions I was calling out.
Violent threats are uncalled for. If you want to take it personally because you have such strong feelings for the flag, well, that’s on you, but my question in no way was an attack on the flag or anyone who doesn’t threaten innocent business owners for incorrectly hanging a flag.

@canidmajor Vicious? Not at all and certainly not compared to a few other people here. Calling out hypocrits, sure I will. I’m not saying everyone here is like that but a few bad apples do it constantly with no valid reasons.

@Aethelwine I wasn’t calling you out personally.

@KNOWITALL You’ll have jerks wherever you go on the internet. Last year on a question I asked here I was called a bigot for calling out bigots in my town. Still scratching my head on that one. I’m a bigot for not tolerating intolerance? Okay. Fluther does lean left and there are a few jerks, but most people here are respectful.

@Aethelwine Oh I get it, and your situation is eerily familiar. On occasion I just reserve the right to call BS when I see it.

@KNOWITALL welcome to the club. If you are a fair minded independent with this crowd, you will spend hours trying to point out all the hypocrisy and foolishness. It does no good.

@seawulf575 You might check her lurve…

@seawulf575 Whatever hypocrisy and foolishness we may have here is trivial compared to the doings of the current commander and chief. A PARADE???

@seawulf575 . “If you are a fair minded independent.” Whom are you referring to? Which jellies fit that description, based on their posts? I’d say none…

Trump is polarizing. Mainly because his actions will hurt millions. He may one day be responsible for the deaths of millions. I think that calls for passionate response. I would like us to keep it civil. I think that some of us are doing our best. The type of anger Trump is responsible for can lead to revolution. Let’s hope the battle remains a war of words…

Thank you all for making my point.

@MrGrimm888 I can understand that sort of passion and those fears. However I just want to point out that when conservatives had those exact same feelings with Obama and his communistic policies, we were branded racists.

^I can’t think of a single time , that Obama “hurt” our people. Trump’s agenda is far more radically right, than any other sitting POTUS. The worst Obama did, was try and give all of us health care. And you’ll never forgive him for that… I know he violated the Constitution, to help the dreamers too. Oh God. What a jerk…

Some conservative’s “feelings” about Obama were racially morivated. Many still are. And racism, is their motivation for supporting Trump.

Again. When you find your goals aligned with nazis, and white supremacists, you should be checking you moral compass. Not calling on others, to check their’s….Wake up…

@seawulf575
“we were branded racists.”
gee
I
wonder
why
that
is

By the way, forcing people to buy private health insurance, pretty much the opposite of “communistic”.

Ok, got it now. In order to be fair minded and independent I must agree with with @seawulf575. Aaaand Fox News is “fair and balanced”. Right.

@ragingloli Wow, the equivalent of 6000 words to vividly illustrate your point. GA but not fair minded or evidence of independent thought, evidently.

Oh my…what a wide open field of fire! Which target should I hit first? They all pretty much have to do with Obama so it is a target rich environment. Hmm…Ok…I’ll start with @ragingloli, our little liberal troll. Actually, forcing people to buy healthcare they don’t want is something that would happen in a communistic society. It is based on the idea that people get everything they need based on their ability and their needs. Forcing me, a 57 year old guy with a vasectomy, to buy insurance that covers birth control for me and my wife (60 with her tubes tied), as well as pediatric care, Obstetric coverage, etc so that I can help offset the cost of someone that might need those things but can’t afford them is almost the definition of communism. I understand you don’t want to accept that, but it is true. And the ACA as it was originally presented was unconstitutional. If you remember, Obama and the Dems swore up and down that it would not create any new taxes. They said that those that did not buy insurance would pay a penalty. That is illegal. It was taken all the way to the SCOTUS and the ONLY reason it was not overturned as a law is that Justice Roberts rewrote their claims. He said that congress has the right to levy taxes and that TAXING someone for not buying insurance was within their purview. Suddenly Obama and the Dems were dancing, claiming a victory with the ACA being legal. Forget they lied about it and that a SCOTUS justice had to rewrite it for them.

On to the next! @MrGrimm888 . Some people are indeed racist…that is a true statement. But if you remember, anyone that said anything about Obama’s policies was instantly called a racist. That, in itself, is foolish enough that it should stop most people from saying it. But it didn’t. Meanwhile, Obama took the side of black thugs that attacked others, including cops, and got shot for their efforts. That is racist and stokes racial hate in this country. Cops began getting targeted and riots broke out with the encouragement of his administration. How many people died, were injured or lost property because of this? Lots. He didn’t hurt anyone? C’mon…you are smarter than that. Combine that with he and Holder selling weapons to drug dealers in Fast and Furious. How many people have died because of that gaffe. And did he ever claim responsibility? Did he ever even say “sorry”? Nope. He created ISIS. He did this by arming and training Syrian rebels that were, oh yeah, Al-Qaeda. Many of these rebels then broke off and formed ISIS. How many lives have been destroyed because of that move? The list goes on. I know the truth hurts, but Obama caused much death, fanned the flames of hatred, and has never been held accountable for a single bit of it. Has never even said he might have, in some odd little way, that might have been an accident, caused any of it. Next!

Can you direct us to an instance showing where Obama took the side of black thugs, or are you just making that up, @seawulf575?

@rojo you make my point perfectly again! Thank you! If you understood the phrase “fair minded and independent” your response would make no more sense to you than it does to me. Fair minded and independent means you are willing to look at things from various sides. You’d be willing to look at the Dems and see the fault there, just as you can with Republicans. You would be able to admit that people like Hillary and Obama are toxic and criminal. You might not agree with me, but you would be able to actually defend your bogus positions when presented with facts and logic.

@thisismyusername Maybe if you attacked me a little I would feel you were a target, but you seem fairly reasonable.

@seawulf575: ”@thisismyusername Maybe if you attacked me a little I would feel you were a target, but you seem fairly reasonable.”

Well, I’m sure I can find a way to disappoint you. :)

I wasn’t a fan of Obama, loathed Clinton, and have never been a Democrat. However, the reasons I disliked them means that I really dislike the Republicans and Trump.

I’m interested in you elaborating on some of your assertions about Obama – not because I want to defend them, but I’d love to hear why you feel that the Republican approach is different (and better). Maybe I’ll need to start another thread…

@Dutchess_III do you want citations or just cases? Trayvon Martin….Obama’s son. Michael Brown…innocent victim for the longest time and that evil police officer shooting him stains the hearts of black children. Right up until the truth (instead of lies) was actually put forth. How about his speech in Dallas when 5 police were ambushed and killed? He was speaking at a memorial for the cops and addressed the evils done to the black community. Let’s go back even further…not really a thug, but a black man. Look up Beergate. Remember that? One of his old buddies from college was arrested and Obama immediately castigated the cops, before even having the facts. It turns out the cops were called for suspicious actions at the guys house…he had locked his keys in and was trying to break in. A neighbor called because they saw someone trying to break in. When the cops got there and established he was the owner, they were going to drop it and, in fact, were walking away, but the guy started throwing out the race card and got belligerent with them. He was arrested for his behavior, not because he was black. When that all came out, Obama had to do the beergate to try saving face. Do I need to continue on? There are many more examples.

Here is an excerpt of Obama’s speech Trayvon: “You know, when Trayvon Martin was first shot I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago. And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, there’s a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it’s important to recognize that the African American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn’t go away.” source.
I read through the whole speech and all I see is him addressing the country from the perspective of being black. I don’t see where he defended him. So if you will look through it and see if I missed it somewhere.
I, personally, defend Trayvon, though. He wasn’t doing a thing but walking through his dad’s neighborhood being all black.

I can’t find any thing that suggests he defended Micheal Brown either. But it’s your claim that he did so the burden of proof is on you.

@seawulf575 Trayvon Martin was walking along a street in America when he was shot by Zimmerman for no apparent reason, Zimmerman claimed self-defence but he had a gun. Trayvon had only a packet of skittles.

Henry Gates was shot by a policeman where he should have felt most safe, within the grounds of his own home. My opinion is that had Henry Gates and Trayvon Martin been white they would both be alive today.

Is there anyone ELSE here who imagines that a requirement to buy health insurance is communist doctrine?

We have had a National Health Service in the UK for the last 70 years. Like defence, education, housing and transport it is paid for out of general taxation. If the government tried to take the NHS from us there would be a revolution.

@seawulf575 that is rather presumptuous of you to assume that I cannot find fault with the Dems or that I do not find fault with Obama or Clinton just because I detest your personal preference for Dear Leader.
To my perspective you are the one who clings to a narrow perception of what reality is and find the rest of us to be mentally and morally deficient because we fail to see it with the sharp clarity of focus that those mental blinders you wear allow.
Perhaps you and I do see things through different lenses but you have failed repeatedly to convincingly argue that your perspective is the only correct one.and that mine is the one based on alternative facts and mistaken conclusions.
Suffice to say that I very much doubt that you have the intellectual acuity to truly grasp the concepts of fairness, open mindedness or independent thought.
Carry on though. Practice makes perfect.

@flutherother Please get real. Trayvon Martin was walking home and Zimmerman was following him. Then Zimmerman started going back to his car and Martin attacked him. After beating him for a while, Martin got shot because, yes, Zimmerman had a gun. But had he not attacked, he would not have gotten shot. You make it sound like Martin was just walking along minding his own business and got shot for no apparent reason. Get the facts first. And speaking of getting the facts, Gates was never shot. He was arrested because he got “disorderly” and continued after being warned. Your version isn’t even realistic. If he got shot, why did Obama try to smooth things over with Beergate? And Gates attended, about a week after the incident. Shot? Please.

@rojo While it may be true that you can find fault with Hillary or Obama or really, any of the Dems, you have yet to demonstrate that. You have, at least in interactions with me, gone to extreme lengths to ignore facts so you don’t have to say anything bad about them. Want to prove me wrong? fine…tell me what Obama did wrong or what Hillary has done that is sketchy. I, on the other hand, have criticized Trump and slammed Republicans as well. I find them less toxic than Dems, that is true, but if you want to be “Fair Minded” you will review some of my past interactions with you to find that I have indeed seen fault with these folks. What I don’t do, that seems to irritate you, is that I don’t jump off the deep end making all sorts of over-the-top statements condemning them for things they haven’t done. I wait for actual facts to come out. Example: I can’t get to the point of saying impeach Trump when no crime has been committed. Yet I have had this argument many times on these pages and with you as well. The response I am dealing with? Well, it’s just a matter of time until something is found! So in other words, let’s impeach him, and then worry about finding some cause. Yeah, I can’t support that because, well, I believe in the law and logic and actual facts.

@flutherother The thing you are missing is that this isn’t the UK. We have a Constitution that gives enumerated powers to the federal government. Socialized medicine is not one of those and is only entertained because of some stretchy interpretation of the Commerce Clause. But let’s look at the UK…you have socialized medicine. Do people still buy health insurance? Of Course they do. Why? Because the system gets clogged and bogged down and you can wait a very long time for needed services. And the Government really can deny you services if they deem you don’t need them. Yet the upper 10% of the income earners can afford to buy the insurance so they have no waits and can go right to the head of the line for services they need. Isn’t that giving special treatment to the rich? Or is it just an indictment of the actual quality of the socialized medicine?

@thisismyusername I answered your other question, but seeing your comment here, I think you asked the question possibly erroneously. I personally don’t like career politicians. I don’t like that we are forced to pay people that work to benefit themselves and not us. I don’t like that they cannot make a budget and live to it. I don’t like that they refuse to actually take a hard look at what services and sections are in operation in our government and, with an honest and critical eye, make the decisions to get rid of the duplications and wastes. Please note that I have not once mentioned one party or the other. However, to me, the Dems are trying to go into a socialistic government/society and that has never, ever worked in the history of mankind. It is a known failure and yet it most definitely benefits the upper echelon. I also get really offended when our elected leaders commit blatant crimes and there are still people that refuse to admit it, even when the facts are provided to them. Meanwhile, others are ready to condemn other politicians without actually having any crimes to point to. Yeah, that bothers me.

@seawulf575 . I attended a protest for Martin. I find your account of the incident pathetically twisted, and disgraceful. I will not high jack this thread by admonishing you further. You really hit a low point here, though…

You’re right, @MrGrimm888, I’m only giving the official story. The night of the shooting, the local police found no fault with Zimmerman. Then Obama fanned the racial hate in the country and rolled out his own investigation as well as driving the locals to dig deeper. And in the end, Zimmerman was found to be not guilty. Not to say he isn’t an azz whole, but the story is the story and it fits the facts. Yes, I’m sure you attended a protest for Martin. And those were all wound up because of the racial hate that was being spread by Obama. So what you are saying is that people that were lied to and urged to hate should be believed over two separate investigations? I think you are hitting a low point here…

Obama fanning the flames of racial hatred?

Obama took the side of black thugs that attacked others

Obama caused much death, fanned the flames of hatred

Totally not racist!

(eyeroll)

I stopped responding to @seawulf575 when he said on another thread that Obama had a 70% disapproval rating. He obviously lives in a parallel universe to the truth.

If Zimmerman had stayed in his car like the 911 operator told him and not followed Martin, this story would never have happened. Zimmerman wasn’t found guilty of murder, but he was certainly profiling a black teenager whose stupid actions caused Martins death.

~ ~ ~ not really
@chyna it maybe the Drugs delusion.

@seawulf575: “However, to me, the Dems are trying to go into a socialistic government/society and that has never, ever worked in the history of mankind.”

Ummm…I’m not sure we can discuss anything with this. I’m a socialist – and there is nothing “socialistic” about Democrats. Nothing. No place to go with this. I’m bailing.

@seawulf575 . BLM, and movements like it, are a direct response to incidents like Martin’s and how our “justice” system handles them. If you took Obama’s rhetoric as racist, and inflammatory, but not Trump’s, there is no help for you.

One of my coworker’s cousins was shot to death by police, about two years ago. He was unarmed, and there is video evidence of police planting a firearm on his corpse. The fact that you,and those like you, oppose American people’s desire for not being killed because of their skin color is beyond deplorable.

As a Caucasian LEO, I get the “it’s because I’m black” talk occasionally. But it has credibility. I have had black people swinging on me, because I am a white LEO. The difference between you and I, is I am honest enough to see this behavior as reaction to a systemic problem with the relationship between law enforcement, and the black community. Obama was simply addressing a cancerous issue, that was beginning to boil over. If you don’t think that our POTUS, and population should attempt to bring attention to this issue, in hopes of eliminating it, again there is no help for you.

How you have the audacity, to cast aspersions on my morality, when our children, and neighbors are gunned down by those who are supposed to protect them, is beyond my comprehension…

@seawulf575. I no longer allow myself to take your posts seriously, but I confess to follwing them avidly for sheer entertainment. You do yourself a great disservice in constantly reminding us of how fair minded and balanced you are on all the issues. You should take a lesson from our President on the perceptions generated with the necessitlly to constantly blow your own horn. And as for that system of government that you believe Obama was dragging us toward —that one which “has never ever worked in the history of mankind”? That system currently defines EVERY FIRST WORLD government that is currently pulling ahead of us in EVERY statistic that matters.

@seawulf575 Gates was arrested and not shot. My mistake. However, given the circumstances it shouldn’t have been necessary even to arrest him. Obama did try to smooth things over afterwards which is hardly “fanning racial hatred”. It gave Gates a chance to meet Crowley face to face after which Gates said “when he’s not arresting you, Sergeant Crowley is a really likable guy”. So much for racial hatred.

@janbb you are merely misquoting me and then trying to use your ignorance to ridicule me. What I stated was not that Obama had a 70% disapproval rating, I stated that 70% of Americans felt the country was on the wrong path under Obama. Different animal. But I understand…when you want to try digging into someone it’s so much easier to make stuff up.

@chyna No argument about if Zimmerman had stayed at his car. But here is where we differ a lot. There had been quite a few break ins and acts of violence in that neighborhood in the time leading up to this event. All committed by black thugs that were dressed like Trayvon was that night and that were not members of that community. Trayvon was not originally from that neighborhood, but just moved in with his dad who did live there. So Zimmerman, who was part of a neighborhood watch, sees an unfamiliar black kid, dressed like the thugs that have been causing problems, so he follows him to see if he is going to cause problems. If he was a strict racist and was just looking for a fight, he wouldn’t have called 911 to report the suspicious person. And in the end, he did walk away. Zimmerman was not the one that approached Martin…it was the other way around. And it wasn’t Zimmerman who attacked Martin…it was the other way around. Guess Martin was what…just engaging in his Constitutional rights to attack someone? I don’t think Zimmerman was smart for ever getting out of his car and I think the whole thing was needless violence. But I can’t get to Zimmerman being some racist or that he was itching to shoot someone, not given the evidence.

@thisismyusername I think one of us either has a misunderstanding of the term Socialist, or of the actions of the Dems. Or both. When Democrats can’t even tell you the difference between their own party and socialist, it really means there isn’t any.

@stanleybmanly Okay…the challenge. Tell me one socialistic government that has ever built up their nation. You can even claim Sweden. Because even with Sweden, the facts don’t support it. Sweden was a gem before the socialists took over. They managed to stay okay but declining for years. Now they are swamped with all sorts of problems. Venezuela, USSR…the list goes on. On small scales, socialism can work. On larger scales, it falls apart. This is a really good, short explanation on how socialism works or doesn’t work:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-10/capitalism-socialism-communism-republic-always-devolves-oligarchy

@flutherother Gates was arrested because of his actions. The cops did what they were supposed to…responded to a call (from a neighbor) of a possible break-in. Once Gates established he was the owner of the place the cops went to leave. Gates then started spouting about them profiling and being racists and started getting totally out of control. He followed them out to their car. They warned him of getting out of control and he continued on. So they arrested him for disorderly conduct. Obama, the POTUS, then jumped in with a condemnation of the police for racist behavior towards the black man. A small, local issue and the POTUS is on national TV jumping in to play the race card. Didn’t have the facts, but had no problem claiming racism on the cops. Yeah…that doesn’t fan the flames at all, does it? Beergate was his way of saving political face. He later found out his buddy had been the one out of line and that he, himself, had jumped WAY over the line.

Your crock of shit boilith over @seawulf575 . Turn down the heat…

@seawulf575 We need to agree on some definitions. All of those nations that we regard as preeminent in the world for the overall well-being of their citizenry (including our own) are without exception considered social democracies. From Singapore to the Netherlands, all of them have evolved into states where socialist—-what is it with you and that “IC” you want to tack on the end of socialist? And can anyone explain the conservative necessity to REMOVE the “IC”
from Democratic party. You don’t hear liberals yapping about the Republic party. You

Anyway, all of these nations have evolved into states where socialist measures are instituted to defend their citizens from the necessary ravages and inequities which ALWAYS accompany predatory capitalism. We (or rather YOU) choose to resist these tendencies mightily, while I contend that we are going to sooner or later wind up with universal single payer healthcare, government financed childcare, and all of the other undeniable benefits to individuals which render life tolerable to the people of Dennark, Germany, Japan, etc.

@stanleybmanly see…that is where we differ. You see everything and everywhere as a social democracy. So let’s look at the definition. “a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.” I always thought we lived in a democratic republic. Imagine my surprise. I think that might be part of the problem. You believe we are a socialistic society and we are not so you are not getting what you think you ought to. I can understand that. In a socialistic society, the government would tax you for everything and then allow you to have stuff back. In our society, we are supposed to be free to decide what we spend our money on and what we want and go our own path to earn it. So if you are expecting the government to give you everything for the mere fact you are in the country (I won’t even say citizen since past comments of yours feel anyone in our borders is entitled), and you aren’t getting all that stuff, I can see you feeling gypped.

We’ve had this debate before over what qualifies as socialism. Remember our discussion over the streetlight or traffic signals on your corner? You’re wrong. It isn’t that I feel cheated. I’m doing just FINE. It is the society overall which suffers at MY expense, because it is being engineered to achieve EXACTLY that. So, if the Post Office is socialism at work, is it inherently evil? Would more women work if childcare were Federally financed? Wanna bet that the tax revenues generated by those women might exceed the expense of looking after their children?

And by the way, all functioning democratic republics these days are social democracies.

^The problem about talking about social issues with liberals is that they refuse to admit that people are flawed, that people game the system, that not everyone is the strawman they present. Not all illegal immigrants are fine upstanding, productive people. Not all women are going to work if free childcare was provided. Not all gun owners are out to start shooting people. Yet in a liberals arguments, they all are. And it doesn’t matter how many examples you tote out or how much logic is applied or how many facts are provided…the liberal is not going to admit anything other than the fantasy world they are trying to sell.
I just gave you a definition of Social Democracy. It is an actual term with an actual definition. You are the one that brought up definitions, so I gave you one. And do you acknowledge it? Not at all. You go right on claiming you are right, even after proof was provided to the contrary. Would more women work if childcare were provided? Not necessarily. Some don’t want to work. Some don’t want strangers raising their children. And if you have ever had to take your children to daycare, you will know that there are many bad ones out there, even though there are a ton of regulations and laws concerning their operation. So your suggestion is to provide daycare that people would have to use, regardless of how good they might be or even how convenient it might be. But for your argument, in stanleybmanlyland, is that there is a fantastic daycare on every corner and all the women are clamoring to take their children there and the taxes will pay for it! Any other viewpoint is ignorant in stanleybmanlyland. The post office you bring up. It is a service provided by the federal government, but people pay to use it. Not socialistic. AND, it is so grossly inefficient and bloated that it is hugely over budget every year. In a real world business, it would be bankrupt a long time ago. So that actually supports my arguments that anything the government does is neither cost effective nor operationally efficient. Yet liberals would have us put our healthcare, childcare, and just about everything else into the control of the group that has shown incompetence at dealing with what they have already. I could provide similar arguments to almost any example you want, but it wouldn’t make a bit of difference. You know and I know that I am right everywhere except stanleybmanlyland.

“A socialist system of government achieved by democratic means” defines to a considerable degree the country we both live in. And stop with the sweeping generalizations on what you suppose “liberals believe”.

@seawulf575 Trayvon Martin started beating Zimmerman first? Where the hell do you get your news? Or do you just make shit up in your head, then try to present it to us as fact?

@Dutchess_III you should know by now that I can’t make this stuff up. And if you thought about it for 2 seconds you would know it was true. If Zimmerman started beating on Martin first, there would have been more signs of that on Martin. Additionally, since he had a gun, he wouldn’t have had to just start beating on him, if all he wanted to do was kill him. And if he didn’t want to kill him, why would he start just punching him? Witnesses saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him. Here…I’ll help you….you could Google it, but really why would you?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083

From your link Their story begins when Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and pursued Trayvon on foot.”

“Trayvon spotted something suspicious, too: He was being followed. ”

“When he said this man was behind him again, he come and say, this looks like he’s about to do something to him,” the girl told ABC News. “And then Trayvon come and said the man was still behind him, and then I come and say, ‘Run!’ ”
Trayvon did just that.

Zimmerman was the one who told everybody that Trayvon hit him first…even if it’s true (there are conflicting eye witness reports,) can you blame him? He was a kid. A macho kid, like most teenage boys try to be, and it appeared he was in danger.

Are you seriously on the moronic adult’s side in this? He should be in jail for what he did.

It is funny that people say that Zimmerman acted in self defence, but somehow refuse to see that Trayvon acted in self defence, too.

And he shot the kid when he was down. On his stomach.

Wow this question took a turn. I agree with everything BLM is doing just not how they are going about doing it. Especially with the violence and anti-white remarks. But, the things that happen against black people are worse than just yelling “kill all blacks” (Like some of the BLM people) so can’t complain as much

Who is BLM?

@Dutchess_III Black lives matter.

@Dutchess_III if you continue to read the article, Zimmerman says he was heading back to his car when Trayvon came up behind him and attacked him. Yes, I can blame him. And in the end, Zimmerman’s story held out. The evidence supported him. So let’s evaluate. Zimmerman started following Martin. Martin confronted Zimmerman and then attacked him. Not a rational conversation, not a calm interaction that suddenly ended with Zimmerman attacking. It was a quick, terse challenge and an attack by Martin. And not just a hit him and run away, hit him until you knock him down and then climb on top and keep hitting. This is not the action of a scared little kid. And if someone is beating me silly without showing signs of stopping, and I have a gun, I would protect myself too. Do I think Zimmerman handled this whole thing correctly? No. Do I think he is a moron? Yes. Do I think Martin is an innocent in all this? Not a chance. And anyone that believes that seems excessively naive to me. In the end, it was a tragedy that could easily have been avoided by either party. But murder? Not for self-defense.

That’s what he said. Could be a lie, too, to bolster his self defense case.

The ENTIRE incident, was Zimmerman’s fault. He was a wanna be cop. He disobeyed direct orders from the real authorities. He snuck up, on a 18 year old kid, started getting his ass kicked, and pulled his gun to stop from getting beat up. I don’t know anyone who thinks he went into the situation wanting to kill Martin. But race was the reason why Zimmerman followed Martin.

Martin is dead because he was black, and Zimmerman (an untrained, unqualified, civilian ) exercised poor judgement, and got in over his head.

The fact that he walked, was yet another slap in the face of the black community(it should be to all of us.) There’s a clear pattern where black people get shot, whilst unarmed, and the killer receives no punishment. Saying that they dressed like a bad person, is absolutely no excuse. And honestly shows cultural ignorance.

Martin was murdered. Zimmerman, is a murderer.

It’s a VERY simple case…

@MrGrimm888 Except the evidence, the police, the DoJ and the jury disagreed with your conclusions.

It’s always funny to compare Trump to Immortan Joe, because one of them is a weird-looking old man who thinks of himself as a badass benevolent demigod but only is a sexual predator who panders to a bunch of brainwashed delusional skinheads through testosterone-filled speeches and maintains his power through tyranny and propaganda, and the other is Immortan Joe.

He was only 17 @MrGrimm888. And I agree whole heartedly with your assessment. He was the child, Zimmerman was the adult. They both acted like macho, posturing, alpha idiots, but Trayvon can be excused. No excuse for Zimmerman.

@ragingloli Tell me what you really think of him . . . ;>)

I was watching David Letterman’s show on Netflix last night. The episode where he interviews Obama. You should watch it if you get a chance. You’ll be reminded of what it was like to have an eloquent and intelligent President. sigh

@Aethelwine and with a heart.

Such high falootin traits are now viewed with great suspicion and only bolster suspicions that he is “unAmerican” and could not have been born in this country.

@seawulf575 . That’s the point. The justice system failed Martin. That’s the problem.

@MrGrimm888 The justice system is supposed to be blind. When presented with the evidence, the Sanford PD investigated and released Zimmerman. Then Obama and the DoJ jumped in so the Sanford PD had to back up and do it again, with DoJ watching every step. Then they took him to court and the prosecution didn’t have enough evidence to convict him of murder. Did he shoot Martin? Absolutely…he admitted that at the scene. Is Zimmerman a douchebag? No argument here. But being a douchebag and committing murder are two different things. So your stance is that the Sanford PD, the DA, the DoJ, the Judge, and the jury were all in some sort of conspiracy to kill Martin? Come on, man! At some point you have to actually look at the fact that Martin physically attacked Zimmerman. You have to admit that he wasn’t the innocent little 12 year old they media tried portraying. He was a troubled youth. He stepped way over the line and unfortunately for him, he got himself shot.

Not a conspiracy to kill Martin. A collective failure to put Zimmerman behind bars. There really wasn’t much evidence. Only one witness on the scene survived, so only one story. Martin’s girlfriend overheard some of it, and testified to the best of her abilities. She was not well educated, and probably came across as a poor witness.

The system did a piss poor job here. If Martin weren’t a black kid, Zimmerman never would have pursued him. I can’t speak to Zimmerman’s character, but his motives for following Martin were made clear. The entire incident is Zimmerman’s fault. He should have been held responsible.

This basically tells people, “go start a fight with anyone, and if you start getting beat up shoot them.” No consequences.

It also indicates that if you’re black, your children aren’t safe just walking around. And the system that is in place to protect your children will not. The black community has seen FAR too many incidents, and outcomes like this.

Martin’s character is completely irrelevant. It’s people like you @seawulf575 , that view any black kid like him as a thug. Did you know him?

Martin was being followed. He decided to attack the person who he perceived as a thteat. He didn’t step over any lines. He was protecting himself.

I ask you this. If Martin had killed Zimmerman, would he be free?

@seawulf575 When Zimmerman was asked what made him suspicious of Trayvan this is what he said: “I felt he was suspicious because it was raining. He was in-between houses, cutting in-between houses, and he was walking very leisurely for the weather.”

Trayvan was walking down a public path that led to his front door just a minute’s walk away. He was walking too slowly?? Maybe he wanted to finish his skittles before he got home, who knows? Unfortunately we will never hear Trayvan’s side of the story.

^And Zimmerman had NO training. He is not qualified to call anything suspicious. A cop wanna be, driving around with a gun at night. That’s suspicious.

Zimmerman threatened his girlfriend with a shotgun.
He threatened to kill another driver in his road rage.
He threatened to feed Jay-Z to alligators.
This tells you everything you need to know about his character, and that there can be no doubt at all that he was the aggressor when he murdered Trayvon.

I watched that @Aethelwine. Also, if you can snap Michelles last talk show interview as First Lady with Jimmy Fallon you’ll doubly reminded of what we lost.

@Dutchess_III I didn’t support Obama in the beginning but I sure do miss him now. I’ll admit I was wrong about the man. I think he was one of our finest presidents.

♥. I think so too @Aethelwine. But compared to trump, even Bush Jr. was an excellent president.

I read an opinion in our local paper. Well, I scanned it. The person was saying that trump gave a very, very good SOTU address. He had a 74% approval rating for his speech. But does he coast along on that for a while? No. He immediately turns everyone’s attention back to Russia. Jesus. He’s a damn fool.
Joe Biden, relevant

@Dutchess_III: “But compared to trump, even Bush Jr. was an excellent president.”

please stop

No.

I’m sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what is going on with Russia. All I heard was that people think they swayed election results but now it’s this huge thing that honestly, I’m so far behind on that none of it is making any sense whatsoever.

Yes. I wonder where we are on that investigation.

^^ Investigations are ongoing despite little or no support from the Republican party leadership. All US intelligence agencies agree with the conclusion that Russia was involved in the US election. Trump and his Republican asslickers will not accept this conclusion. Trump, in his latest tweets over the weekend failed, again, to mention any punitive measures that would or should be implemented against Russia but did, again, disparage the FBI and McMasters comments about the conclusive nature of the investigation.. And now, in typical Trumpian fashion, Trump denies denying that Russia was involved despite video evidence to the contrary.

Sigh.

The Russia thing is a bit of a mess right now, because it is complicated, and information is coming out to the public in bits, and people are trying to fill in the gaps with educated guesses, and while the larger contour of the story seems to be true, certain details—those that haven’t been confirmed by US agencies, anyway—may not be. (Still, it’s worth noting that US agencies have confirmed much of the general picture of events).

Here are the broad strokes:

Russia’s influence campaign included:
– Cyber attacks and cyber espionage on such targets as the DNC, which was known to be successful. Their success with other (suspected?) political targets may not be as clear.
– Also a known target: voter registration information. (NOT voting systems; this point, that votes weren’t literally changed after the fact, has been confused by some with the larger topics of Russian influence and interference). We know they were successful in breaching some small number of systems they attacked, and collected the data available there. (This part of the story reemerged recently).
– Apparent connections between WikiLeaks and the Russian government which US intelligence agencies have confirmed.
– Social media campaign, with Russian actors using a combination of advertisements, fake accounts, stolen identities, and bots, designed to muddy the waters between fact and misinformation, and to sew (or strengthen) discord and disillusionment in American politics. This is what Mueller’s recent indictment of 13 Russians is about.

We also know that the Russian efforts in particular and objectively favored Donald Trump, and in particular and objectively targeted Hillary Clinton. What we don’t know (yet) is if this was done in knowing coordination with members of the Trump campaign.

That question is yet to be answered by the Mueller investigation, an investigation initially opened by the FBI after the FBI received warnings from the intelligence agencies of ally countries that something wasn’t smelling right. (I personally feel the mass of information leaked to the public lends credibility to “yes,” but we need to wait for the professionals to finish their investigation and determine what the evidence shows.)

And then, of course, are the partisan attempts to shape the investigation into an advantageous narrative, in particular attempts by the Trump administration and certain Republican leaders to discredit and minimize it by apparently any means necessary. (At least, they’re willing to go as far as to launch campaigns against the integrity of entire agencies.)

… And I’m sure I’ve left out some stuff. That’s as much of a synopsis as I can give.

As I read somewhere today, it is worth noting that Russia thought the best way to damage America was to help elect Donald Trump

Late additions to synopsis:

Other Mueller indictments and/or plea deals: Papadopoulos; Flynn; Gates & Manafort; newly, Van Der Zwann

Right wing media such as Fox News are also playing into the efforts to try and discredit the investigation and the agencies associated with it.

… And I’m still sure I’ve left some stuff out.

Thanks for the updates, guys.

@rojo . I’d have to think Trump is outperforming Putin’s expectations…

Here’s the part I really don’t understand about the logic you all use. Gates and Manafort are indicted for things they did before they were involved with Trump. They were, however, related in with Tony Podesta at the time they were committing the crimes. Podesta has a direct tie to Hillary Clinton since his brother, John, was the Deputy Chief of Staff for Bill and was the head of Hillary’s campaign. Yet you don’t want to look at a tie like that, you would rather assume that because of the crimes Manafort and Gates did while in this association, they are somehow putting Trump and the Russians together. But let’s dig deeper. Manafort was involved with recruiting the Skadden group when he was hob-nobbing with the Russians. This was in 2012. The Skadden group was led by Gregory Craig. Gregory Craig, in 2009 and 2010 worked as Obama’s WH counsel. Before that he worked for Bill Clinton during his impeachment process. There is a direct tie to Obama AND Hillary. Yet you all just focus on Trump. What would it take to actually start tying all these coincidences together for you? The only coincidence tying Trump to any of this is accusations from Hillary and the fact that he hired on two guys who were scammers years before he met them. You latch onto that but fail to look at the ties they had to Obama and Hillary WHILE they were scammers.

@seawulf575 – genuine question. Why do you think people involved in the Trump campaign or Presidency lied to the FBI about contacts with the Russian government? It seems like an important fact that people are willing to plead guilty in order to avoid larger charges, but it doesn’t seem to carry much weight with supporters.

I keep hearing that no one did anything wrong, but people are admitting to crimes which potentially carry Federal jail time. In your view, why would they do that?

Also @seawulf575 I have not heard anyone calling for the end of the investigation because of possible connections to Clinton or Obama, the two posterchild conservative satans. All I hear is them wanting to let the investigation keep going to its conclusion and let the chips fall where they may. Unlike the conservatives who want it to end for some unfathomable reason or another…..

@funkdaddy People with the Trump campaign could have lied to the FBI about a things for a good many reasons. Maybe it was because they figured it was way in the past. Maybe they felt they had met the intent of the rules. For example…Manafort and Gates lied about not being registered as people dealing with foreign agencies. If you go back and look, they made a lame attempt at filing retroactively. To you and I that looks sleazy. And the FBI felt that too. But here’s the thing that makes me look at the whole investigation as sleazy: they weren’t the only ones. Tony Podesta and his group all did the exact same thing…at the same time. Yet they are not hauled in. But regardless…the times they were trying to cover was from 4 years before that time. That might be one explanation for lying to the FBI. It also might be that they know they had done criminal activities at that time and were trying to cover their tracks. And this answers your second part. I don’t believe anyone is saying Manafort and Gates didn’t do anything wrong. What you are hearing is that they didn’t do anything when with the Trump campaign, other than lying to the FBI. But lying to the FBI about past crimes doesn’t make a bridge to Trump colluding with Russia to win the election. It is a really weak base for any kind of tie. But back to my point, there are more and more ties to the actual criminal activity and Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. And for some reason no one really wants to open that door. At this point, Mueller has that power to do just that. His guidance is to investigate and act on ANY criminal acts he might uncover. And most of the liberals on this site don’t want to look at those ties, even though they are more substantial and pertinent to the crimes for which he is charging others. Instead, they keep going on this bizarre thought that Trump’s indictment is right around the corner when the ties to any wrongdoing by him are actually minimal. Why is that?

@rojo let me remind you of the order that appointed Mueller as the special prosecutor. It states in (b) of that order:

The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confinned by then-FBI
Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals
associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).

Item (ii) should be all that is needed to open up that investigation. In fact, you could say that investigation is already opened. Mueller found 4 year old dirt on Manafort and Gates. That arose directly from the investigation and ties directly to Obama and Hillary.
You want to act like you and the others are being fair and wanting justice, yet you don’t seem to actually want the investigation to move forward and absolutely refuse to see any time to Obama or Clinton. I just pointed out strong ties between the wrongdoing that the investigation uncovered and those two. Ties that are far stronger than any to Trump. Yet not one of you has addressed those ties. All you can all do is focus on Trump, regardless of what evidence is out there.

@seawulf575 As you point out, and I refer you back to, article (i) lays out the original scope and, the Clinton/Obama bogieman is not named but Trump is. But, you are correct, part (ii) will allow investigation of the two and, since we have no idea what the actual scope of what Muellers investigation has uncovered it is possible that he is also pursuing those leads. I don’t know, you don’t know. And your boy is in the drivers seat at this time.

Perhaps if Republicans had not whined so loud and so often over a myriad of non-issues,think Benghazi, think Uranium One, think Clintons’ emails, each of which encompassed numerous investigations and committees and all of which went nowhere for a lack of substance, then perhaps they could justify yet another investigation. Not that they will need justification, that has not been a prerequisite in the past. You know, you can only cry “wolf” so many times before you risk being ignored or thought too patently biased to be believable.

Regardless of how much of the Fox News kool-aid you have consumed lately, Mueller is considered by most rational thinking people to be a competent and impartial investigator and if he thinks the evidence actually exists, this time then he may actually find what you seek. Unlike the undeniably obvious attempts at slander that Republicans have been so unsuccessful with in the past.

I think you see what you want to see and ignore that which you do not. You point out possible links to Clinton while ignoring those that tie Trump to the investigation, sometimes when they appear to have a commonality, and because I/we do not rend our clothing or pull out our hair you accuse us of indifference. Where is your concern about the Russian interference? Why are you afraid to look into the evident financial ties of Trump and Russia? Why is it you obviously only want to deflect attention from Trumps involvement? Why is it you choose to disregard Trumps refusal to implement sanctions against his Russian counterparts even though his own Republican dominated Congress voted to implement them? Why does the evident incompetence of the White House and the White House staff fail to illicit any concern at all from you? Why does fairness and justice only seem to be important to you when applied to Democrats and not Republicans? Why do you steadfastly refuse to see the serious, serious moral flaws and criminal intent in Trump and his (and I use the term loosely) organization? Why is it that you do not want to await the results of the ongoing investigation but call it a waste and want to cancel it immediately before its conclusions are presented? What are you afraid to face up to?

At least I can say that Clinton is scum. Something that, although you know it to be true, you cannot bring yourself to do with Trump.

Funny you should bring up the Clinton e-mail scandal. That has now surfaced again…from the Mueller investigation by way of Strzok. It starts coming out that he was integral not only in controlling that investigation, but helping Comey reword the statement so that it didn’t use the damning words “gross negligence”. “Gross negligence” would have been word for word from the law she broke. Instead they changed it to “extremely careless” so that people like you would have some way to go along with the charade. And yet even when things like that come out and there is verifiable proof that there is shady dealings involving Hillary, you can only try attacking anyone that might see it for the scam it is. And yes, that means you see what you want to see and ignore that which you do not….which is what I have been saying all along. Nice of you to try projectionism. I don’t see the possibilities in the Trump investigation because after a year of digging, nothing has surfaced. All the dealings that have surfaced, though, have pointed more closely towards Hillary and Obama and that brings us back to how I cannot understand the logic you try to use. How can you see (which you like to claim) that these ties are there but then jump right back onto blaming Trump? When there really isn’t anything on Trump? I get that you don’t like Trump. But honestly, it looks like grasping at straws. You blindly protect Hillary and Obama regardless of how much wrong they do, yet are almost frantic that someone should find something that Trump actually did wrong. Obama violated the Constitution…broke THE law…repeatedly. And yet you cannot see any wrong there at all. Add to that the lies and the hatred he sowed and it still doesn’t phase that desperate liberal haze you have around you. I saw partisan politics and criminal behavior because it was there. I would be more than happy to admit to criminal behavior out of Trump, except it doesn’t exist. Funny that you cannot reverse that. You cannot admit criminal behavior out of your liberal heroes despite facts.

It must take a lot of will power, to be so deep in denial…

The investigation is ongoing. Crying about Obama, and Hillary does nothing. It merely shows how afraid conservatives are. Your attempts at deflection will not hinder the investigation.

In fact. The investigation is likely to turn up skeletons, in many closets.

I find it hilarious, that Trumpers keep saying “all this happened, before Trump ran.” No shit? You mean a plot to steal the office of POTUS didn’t just happen overnight? I know conservatives have their heads up their asses, but that stupid nonsense only works with other conservatives.

If Trump is SO innocent, then there’s nothing to worry about.

Gross negligence : Extremely careless
Shithole : Shithouse.

What are you bitching trying to distract from, again? Comey handed you the election by bringing up the Republican bogieman days before the election, again and when he came out and said, “Oops, my bad, nothing to see here” it was too late to repair the damage done by Republican deceit. And again, I don’t give a shit about Clinton. Nail her to a cross if you can actually find any evidence of foul play. Stop saying we defend her. What you so cavalierly call defense is actually just insisting that focus remain on the Russian investigation and the very real possibility of collusion with the Trump transition and election teams. Provide proof, real proof, not Fox News/Breitbart News proof. Hard evidence not innuendo of criminality by Clinton otherwise quit whining.

And of course you don’t see proof of Trumps involvement, no one has; the report hasn’t been released yet. And you seem bound and determined to make sure it isn’t. Of course, history indicates that even if Mueller finds it and is allowed to release it you will still refuse to believe it and try to blame it on Clinton. Hell you are already blowing this smoke. And speaking of smoke, there is plenty of it where Trump and his minion are concerned. Let us just wait and see but let it happen.

I know you are intelligent and, despite your claims otherwise, I know that you certainly can see how even if Clinton is guilty that does not exculpate Trump.. Again and again you claim Clinton/Obama (let’s just call them Clinama or would you prefer Obinton?) are guilty and that we are blind and yet you cannot even admit to the mere possibility of guilt in your Trump.

You claim Obama violated the Constitution but, again, that is only your, or rather Hannity’s, opinion; not the opinion of people actually versed in Constitutional law. I find it more amazing than amusing that you continue to use the past tense when discussing partisan politics and criminal behavior and yet are blind to what ia going on today.

And finally, again and again, and for the last time, you cannot show criminal behavior out of “Clobama”, all you can do is keep repeating that it is there in the all together vain hope of obscuring the actions of the present administration that is at its best incompetent and more likely.insidiously criminal.

I am still awaiting your presentation of actual facts to back up your own lies and hatred.

Facts, real facts, actual facts, not your vaunted alternate facts.

@seawulf575 your defence of Trump is to repeat over and over that Clinton and Obama were worse. Even if true that is no defence rather an acceptance of some kind of guilt on Trumps part.

Yes, yes, yes…I know…I’m the one not facing reality. Yet none of you have really explained my question or addressed my thought. I pointed out things that this investigation has unearthed. Things that directly tie to Obama and Hillary and nothing that directly ties to Trump. Yet every one of you continues to attack me because you feel Trump is guilty, and you defend Obama and Hillary by trying to deflect it all away from them. I don’t understand that. Not a one of you can even look at the facts that are out there and think “Huh. I wonder if Hillary might have been on the wrong side of this thing?” You can’t even get to that question. And that amount of denial just dazzles me. I get that you hate Trump. But honestly…what are the charges against him for which there is any evidence? The investigation has been going on now for 8 months and so far all the crimes that have been addressed have been from years before the criminals started dealing with Trump. Oh, but they did have ties with Hillary and Obama. So what is the great evidence that keeps you driving towards Trump? Please…tell me. Not that he is a douchebag or that he is an evil person. The evidence. The crime. And not that they may eventually find something. If you are supporting that you are the evil ones. You are saying that you support investigating someone endlessly when there is no specific crime to investigate. Simple, direct questions to you all. What is Trump’s crime and what is the evidence against him?

Such investigations take time. I read several times, when the investigation was starting that it could take over two years. That wasn’t what anybody on either side wanted to hear.

The only thing we “know,” is that Trump is trying to discredit the people investigating him. He has fired at least one person investigating him. He has changed his story multiple times. He has publicly boasted that he could pardon himself, from any crimes. He wanted to fire Muller. He is getting awful antsy, for an innocent person. He tried to discredit the FBI, with a cherry picked document. He won’t let the true document be seen, so that an unbiased opinion can be made. Multiple indictments have been handed down. Some have pled guilty. Trump said repeatedly, that there was NO Russian interference, and the whole story is fake news. Now it is a fact. So now Trump says it was before his campaign.

I have heard from multiple sources, that Trump’s lawyers don’t want him to testify.

Gee. Nothing suspicious here…

Not going to waste my time trying to get you to understand yet again. Obviously you don’t read what I write anyway.
I will simply point out that:
A: No one is defending Clinton or Obama except in your mind.
B. I am not sure if it should count as an “again” or “still”. but if anyone is guilty of deflection, or attempting to deflect it is you using the tired and tiresome, Clinton/Obama are the actual criminals accusations. without evidence and, as I tire having to point out, accusation is not the same as evidence This should be applied to them as you and I apply it to Trump.
C. You accuse us of not having the facts against Trump and yet refuse to see that you do not have the facts against Clinton/Obama. The biggest difference is that we are willing to wait until the facts of the investigation are released. You are not and have already pre-determined their guilt. I am not saying I do not think Trump is scum. I do and I admit it but whether or not he is guilty of what he has been accused of is something I am willing to wait until actual facts are produced before I make that call.
D. As for answering your question or addressing your thoughts, please see item A & B. I know you disagree and will never accept it because it does not follow your alternate world view but that is actually an answer.
E. I am very sorry but you will need to come up with some kind of brilliantly convoluted thought pattern to explain to me how you manage to arrive at the conclusion that wanting to wait until the facts come out and judgements can be reached places me under the category of evil.
F: For the last time, hopefully, Trump has been accused and is being investigated. An accusation is not evidence of either guilt or innocence. To this point he is not guilty of a crime and whether or not he ever is will be determined by the evidence found IN THE INVESTIGATION THAT IS IN PROGRESS and the investigation will take as long as the investigation takes.

@seawulf575 it’s not that we haven’t got to the “Hillary question” we have got beyond it.

Why is anyone still talking about Hillary? We really should be talking about Abraham Lincoln and his dastardly attempt to end slavery.

^^^ Or Tafts’ weight problem. It was keeping him fed that was one of the major causes of WWI. or so I have heard

~ ~ ~ ~ or Jefferson and Franklin writing a Constitution !
Trump doesn’t see any reason for a Constitution in a modern Monarchy.

Trump is so way in over his head,especially with the gun problem we’re beating him over the head with.