Border wall - is the plan to rebuild old sections?

The distance is SO vast, and the terrain (in many places) is SO difficult. Just getting to many locations will be difficult. I can’t see a plan that won’t have to take advantage of any existing structures.

I also don’t see the wall being completed within the confines of the $25b price tag.

He specifically mentioned adding more ICE, not sure about the wall.

The wall will be a tangible example of Trump holding his word, to the sheep. He will stop at nothing to ensure it’s construction. Like it or not, and despite it’s ineffectiveness, or price, it’s coming soon, to a Mexican border near you…

@MrGrimm Do you feel the same about the Canadian border and airport security? Is it the cost or idea that bothers you so much?

Does it matter? It’s a solution that can’t work to a problem that doesn’t exist.

USA Today has a pretty good breakdown

The proposal by Customs and Border Protection calls for 316 miles of additional barrier by September 2027, bringing total coverage to 970 miles, or nearly half the border, according to the Associated Press, citing an unnamed U.S. official with direct knowledge of the matter.

It also calls for 407 miles of replacement or secondary fencing, said the official, who spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity because the plan has not been made public.

@KNOWITALL I know we have discussed this and I am not answering for @MrGrimm888 but I can answer for me. Yes, I feel the same way toward our border with Mexico as I do toward the one with Canada. LEAVE IT THE F*CK ALONE! Do not destroy the ecology of the area just to mollify some cowardly middle Americans. Give the little scaredy pants more guns or bullet proof vests or even guard dogs if it makes them feel safer (fuck! give them a goddam emotional support peacock if that shuts them up) but quit both coddling them and scaring them just to make yourself more important.

If I had any musical talent “emotional support peacock” would be the band name.

@KNOWITALL . Airport security, and the area the wall is supposed to “protect,” are not remotely the same issue.

“The cost, or the idea?” Very much both. Walls are only like 5,000 years obsolete. If the cost for completely obsolete technology is anything, it’s too much. Take a Google Earth look, at the majority of where the wall will be. It is mainly uninhabitable terrain. Hundreds of miles of it, are already river, or desert and hills. It is the most ridiculous project considered in modern times. The border area that is to be walled, is already on deadly, barely survivable terrain, and constantly surveyed by drones, and other agents. Crossed mainly by impoverished, poorly supplied, desperate, refugees. NOT MS13, and rapists… There are multiple videos online, of average women, and children scaling such walls with aplomb. The technology did not keep Mongolians out of China, thousands of years ago. It was merely an obstacle to a army that relied on horses. There just aren’t hundreds of thousands of South Americans on horseback, trying to invade Texas. Nor are there any Canadian forces, that would be deterred by a wall. It (the wall) is probably THE most ignorant plan, I have ever heard of.

Let’s do a thought exercise. You, and your family paid everything you have, and expended all of your resources to travel from Ecuador to America. Now you reach a primitive wall. Would you turn around and go back?

Most illegal immigrants from the Mexican border, have gone through hell to get to that point. A wall, is a blessing, compared to the obstacles they overcame to get there.

Trump hasn’t called for a wall on the Canadian border. Which is just as exposed, if not more, because there are mostly white people in Canada. Trump has been crystal clear that he does not consider white people near as much of a potential problem as minorities. Period….

The cost is of little relevance, if there is an actual realistic way to reduce terrorism. The realistic ways are far cheaper, and more plausible.

MS13, is a broad term, applicable to hundreds of Latino gangs. Some of those gangs have representation in the US armed forces. The ignorant conservatives have brought it up, as if they have even a loose understanding of it. They don’t. It’s origins (in America) are mainly in our prison systems. A whole other discussion, about minorities and institutional issues/inequalities. There are other gangs that are basically ex-military from South American Civil Wars. Again, most recruiting is from inside of the US. Either in the penal systems, or promoted by ex-cons. There simply are NOT armies of international criminals marching unchecked, across the Mexican border. The vast majority, are either refugees of circumstances in South, or Central America, looking to unite with preexisting family in the US, or normal people looking for a better life. Many die trying. And theyaren’t dying at a wall, that stopped them. The journey is full of strife.

Portions of the wall, will cover hundreds of miles of uninhabitable terrain. The cost of simply transporting workers, and materials to these dangerous, and remote locations will be a vast contributing factor to the price tag. Think about this. If the US has to pay a fortune, just to build a wall there, is it really a place to worry about illegal immigrants?

The logic behind the reason for the wall, would be applicable to building a wall across the entire Pacific, and Atlantic Oceans. They are all natural borders. Illegal crossing is risking death, in all cases.

If such immigration, is really a concern, we should have walls around the entire country. Even then, they wouldn’t stop the majority of the undesirables. Walls are an ancient technology. They became obsolete (when unattended) when they were designed. Think of a baby gate. It’s common knowledge that it’s only a matter of time before the BABY circumvents the wall. A BABY. I crawled over my crib, and baby gates at like 1, or 2 years old.

The current USA is gifted by circumstance. The Canadians have little to no reason to illegally come here. The southern border, that isn’t already fenced, is insufferable wasteland. The west, and east borders, are vast ocean…

Obviously, some determined people, will survive the treacherous journey. But it’s your neighbor’s kid, who will more likely shoot up the local school(, with legal guns.)

The real victims, are the immigrants. They are often robbed, raped, and killed. They are easy targets of lawful citizens, because they fear deportation. And the ones I have known, are more patriotic than any legal citizens I know. They love this land, and the opportunity for their children.
They work jobs, that no average American would. They work longer hours, under illegal conditions, with cheap/ineffective equipment, and sleep/live in squalor, just to send money to loved ones, or support families they have here. They are largely a strong addition to our society. Not a detriment. If I had to do what they do to survive, I would leave this country.

Nothing about how they got here, or live, is “easy.” They are the equivalent to the pioneers, that shaped and spread this country, from sea to sea. And they deserve our support, and protection. They should not be ostracized, but embraced. They are our friends, and countrymen. Does nobody think they would fight for our country, if needed? They already have a big representation in our military.

America wasn’t designed to be a country of walls, and division. It was created to be an example of the potential that humanity can be. A hope for the future. A light, to lead us from the dark ages of history. A fighter for freedom. An enemy to the evil, and injustice in the world . An obstacle for the greedy. A place where ALL could have an equal opportunity to thrive, and contribute to something greater than one person, or thought processes. A place of religious freedom, or freedom to have no religion, but to have freedom from religious persecution.

Many men, have fought, and died for this concept. The blood of patriots has watered the roots of this once great country. The current government’s agenda, and actions is a disgrace to those people. The wall is not just a pathetic attempt at a barrier. It is a symbol of a change in what America is/was. It is the antithesis, of the Statue of Liberty. The former single symbol of what this nation stands for, and hopes/hoped to be…

@rojo . From my reading of your posts, you and I are of similar mindset , on these issues. I am not speaking for you either, but my interpretation of what America was created for.

And yes. Frightening the sheep, is just a way to illicit control. Keeping them scared of imagined problems, keeps them voting (for the bad guys,) and empowers their ignorance and intolerance. Interestingly, they vote against their own needs often. They will be the first to feel the effects of reduced healthcare, education, trade, and environmental quality. They will comprise the front lines in any wars fought on false premises. They will bare the burden of the new tax bill. They will curse Obama, while choking on the air that they themselves helped poison. Ignorance used to be a bliss. In the near future, it will get less blissful fast…

Wow we are very far apart. Thanks for explaining your pov.

The Chinese once built a big wall to keep certain people out. It didn’t work then, it won’t work now.

@KNOWITALL . I would like to clarify, just in case, that my comment’s tone was not directed at you. After a brief reread, I felt like it could be perceived as me yelling at you. I was just ranting, and raving…

@MrGrimm888 Oh no worries, I didn’t take it that way. I’m just dismayed that we are so far apart in beliefs and experiences. Now I understand the divisiveness across America because my pov conflicts directly with yours, and I don’t understand how you see it, as I’m sure you don’t see mine.

I have immigrant friends of many races and we’re all good, but they came here legally, which I admire and respect. I listen to the stories of persecution and what they are/have fleeing and I get it, but I simply don’t think it’s okay to ask the rest of the world to follow the rules except via our southern borders just because they’ve managed to get in and stay in against the law. We have to follow the rules to go to their country, too, so I don’t think we’re asking for anything extraordinary.

It’s not all for nothing, you have changed my opinion on the wall.

The way I see it – my ancestors came here uninvited, unwelcome and proceeded to destroy the people living here so they could grab the land and it’s wealth for themselves. I have no right demanding that others follow certain arbitrary rules in migtrating here.

If they registered at Ellis Island, they were legal though. That is all the rest of us are asking for. My Vietnamese friends said it wasn’t easy but they felt great gratification afterwards.

My family came here from England in the 1650’s.

@KNOWITALL . If it were easier, to do legally, do you think we’d have so many illegals? If we embrace the immigrants, they are more likely to follow the legal path to citizenship. Then, we know exactly who they are, and they could be taxed appropriately. Even before Trump, people came in illegally, because they didn’t think they had much choice.

I’m of the opinion that if you came here to contribute, you are welcome. That’s the idea I was pitched about America, in school. A nation built on diversity, freedom, and the ability to chase your dream. The ol’ American Dream. If someone comes here, and works, builds a family, buys a home, pays taxes, maybe has family members join the military, and so on, America is better for it. They aren’t taking any jobs, that Americans can’t compete for. Competition should make our workforce stronger, and all goods/services better quality.

Trump stated in the SOTU that there are 1.8 million illegals. Let’s not get caught up fact checking Don (he’s likely wrong.) Assume we made them all legal. That’s 1.8 new people paying income tax, and capable of getting health insurance. That would add tax revenue, and decrease the burden on our country’s ERs (right now, they treat these people, and eat the cost.) They also would open bank accounts, and take out loans etc…

They could get educations, and have educated children. Smarter country…

Legal citizens would also be able to use law enforcement agencies (right now, many crimes go unreported, for fear of deportation.) So crime rates would likely drop, as criminals wouldn’t target illegal immigrants. Do you feel comfortable with living in a country where a little girl can’t report a rape, or a man can get beaten and robbed with no ramifications to the perpetrators? Does that make America great?

There are bad apples, in every bunch. I think if the process of getting in was easier, we’d be able to track the bad people easier. For one. They wouldn’t have much reason to hide, or live in extremely rural areas.

1.8 million people. Or let’s go with the 800,000 number of “dreamers.” That’s a lot of people. People that might help you, in a natural disaster. They may donate blood, and organs. They could help defend our soil. Assuming that most of them are normal people otherwise (mostly good, not rapists and thieves as conservative media portrays them,) why not sign them up?

This is a cold, hard world. If they want to join our tribe, and help us face the trials and tribulations of life, I’ll take them…

Do you remember the picture of the little Syrian child laying dead on a beach? I do. Mexicans are not a special exemption because of proximity. Their children are not more special than that Syrian child or an American child. I simply dont understand your logic in regards to one race of people. If its hard to get in for everyone else, and they get it done, why is one race exempted? I need coffee and will reread later but I dont agree that Mexicans are more or less special than those Syrians or anyone else fleeing their homelands.

@KNOWITALL

Where is he singling out Mexicans? In his post I read “immigrants”, not “Mexicans”.

Illegal immigrants in the US total around 11 million with 6.2 being Mexican. 79% of which are in California. During previous discussions and this one, @MrGrimm seems to focus on the wall and Mexicans, thus my reply.

@KNOWITALL – I can’t find where @MrGrimm888 focuses on Mexicans. Was it this thread

I’m not cutting and pasting excerpts from multiple conversations folks. This whole thread was about the wall in southern America, used primarily by Mexicans, legal and illegal.

This isn’t about chewing on MrGrimm, we’ve talked via PM in a civilized manner, I’m simply making the point that all immigrants have to go through the same process, or a similar process, and imo there shouldn’t be an exception simply because one race is the majority of illegal immigrants.

@KNOWITALL: “This whole thread was about the wall in southern America, used primarily by Mexicans, legal and illegal.”

Where did you get that information? US Customs and border patrol lists stats on who gets detained attempting to cross: here

That border is used by people from El Salvador, Guatamala, Honduras, and Mexico (see bottom of that link).

Just to inject a bit of what might be obvious.

There’s an entire continent south of Mexico. It’s full of people.

Glorious people.

I’ve even met some of them.

They aren’t Mexican.

@KNOWITALL “During previous discussions and this one, @MrGrimm seems to focus on the wall and Mexicans, thus my reply.”

Umm, this thread is about the proposed wall along the border with Mexico. Of course his posts (or pretty much anyone’s) is going to be focused on the wall, and Mexico.

@Darth Exactly. My point is that it doesn’t matter what race the people are, they should all be held to the same requirements regardless of entry point, race, etc…

@KNOWITALL

I get the feeling you’re trying to argue a point that isn’t really being debated in this thread.

@Darth_Algar Oh okay, maybe I misunderstood. Seems like many people are asking for exceptions for the Mexicans only, everyone else around the world has to obey the rules. Thanks!

It’s mainly that the majority of our immigrant community comes from south of the border (not just Mexico, but Central & South America in general).

Personally, I’m opposed to throwing up barriers to immigration in general, as I feel it goes against everything America stands for. This land doesn’t belong to me simply because my forefathers got off the boat before anyone else’s did. We are a nation for, of and by immigrants. We seem to have forgotten that and now the barriers to entry here (at least legally) are beyond the reach of people who most desperately need the opportunities this country offers. And we want to make it even harder to get in.

^ And as it’s been mentioned before, the people crossing the border are fleeing countries with huge problems that have been created by the U.S. in large part. Our tax dollars have gone to destabilize and overthrow governments. We’re now about to spend more of our tax dollars on a wall in an attempt to keep out these very people.

I’m not sure what kind of ethical system could possibly justify this, not to speak of the supposed efficacy of a wall on immigration.

Also, Trump isn’t playing up this wall because he believes it will work and it’s solving a problem that actually exists (well, he may think that, but his speech writers and advisers don’t). The reason the Republicans are doing this is to stir up fear in the population so they don’t see the real enemy: them. They just screwed you, your kids, and your grandkids by redistributing wealth to the top fraction of a percent and raising the deficit by a trillion dollars to do it. If they didn’t keep people distracted and fearing the most vulnerable in this country, they might have a problem on their hands.

Be wary when you hear of people demonizing immigrants or welfare recipients, etc – these are the victims of the economic system which is keeping you from having nothing and your neighbors finding meth a reasonable career path in an economy that offers sh*t.

Immigrants are not the enemy – documented and undocumented. They are in this together with us, and we need to stand with them.

And if the government was so concerned about crime, why are they doing absolutely nothing to control the gun violence by white men and toddlers that is killing people every day?

^ Yep, not about crime. Undocumented immigrants are also statistically less likely to commit a crime than native US citizens.

@KNOWITALL . I may have misspoke somewhere. I was attempting to defend ALL immigrants. This thread is indeed about the Mexican border wall. I feel that it is the right, that is focusing on Mexicans. Every time I am in a discussion about immigration, conservatives bring up MS13. The right seems to be getting fed this misinformation, from somewhere. Because MS13, is not just one gang, but has it’s hands in many Latino gangs, I suppose you could come up with some large numbers of members. Many Mexican gangs pay homage to the Mexican mafia (MS13) by having an “M” inked/tattooed somewhere on their person. So. People ignorant of the reasons for this lump them all together. If a conservative radio host says “there are hundreds or thousands of members of MS13.” They are incorrect. But it scares conservatives into thinking that the right’s claims (mainly far right) that they are all thugs, rapists, etc…

The number 13, is obviously the letter M. It’s like saying that they are 1313. The people spouting the MS13 nonsense, don’t know what theyare talking about. And it may be hard to believe, but not everyone who is a member of a gang, is a criminal. The Jugalos (not sure if I spelled that right,) are now recognized as a “gang.” They are mainly just middle class white people, who wear clown make up. But that scares conservatives. So now, people who support a crappy rap group are considered gangsters. I believe that it was recently outlawed, to wear clown make up, in Virginia. When ignorance, politics, and scare tactics mix, these are the results…

Why anyone would think the likes of Trump, would have the slightest understanding of gangsin this, or any country perplexes me. Or those who spew this vitriol on conservative media. Most conservatives, know only one type of person. Other conservatives. Many claim that because they had a black friend in school, they are experts on minorities. In reality, most of their knowledge of minorities is cherry picked, and fed to them. That, in and of itself, doesn’t make conservatives bad people. Just ignorant. If minorities judged Caucasians, by the actions/rhetoric of just the far right, that wouldn’t paint white people in a very nice light…

Yes. @KNOWITALL and I (I think) have a good relationship. I already consider her a fluther buddy. We are in the get to know a jelly faze. So we’re still learning of our differences. I don’t feel she is attacking me here. Just trying to figure out my thought process. @KNOWITALL is the most rational conservative, I have ever interacted with. I am NOT a liberal, or democrate. My beliefs, at least on some big topic political issues, do parallel those political parties though. And I have a lot of trouble understanding why conservatives support Trump.

@thisismyusername . Good points…

@Darth_Algar . I can’t understand why some people think America is “theirs.” Many conveniently overlook the facts. It seems like a pattern with conservatives. Being deliberately obtuse, when the situation calls for equal accountability…

@janbb . Isn’t it obvious? The GOP only cares about making the rich richer. I guess when you live in a community with walls, to keep out undesirables, a border wall seems reasonable. Can we stop pretending, that the GOP is actually even thinking about the country’s interests?..