Can we say something positive about the Republican party?

Currently or historically?

@Rarebear – Currently. That’s not to say you can’t go back to Reagan or NIxon. But try to keep it somewhat current.

Well, then this gets into my rather complex political views which are outside of the scope of this question. Happy to talk about those if you like. But the short answer is “No.” Republicanism has been replaced by Trumpism, and Trumpism is the greatest threat to our democractic institution since the Civil War.

There are a few Republicans out there who I still quite respect but they are getting few and far between.

no.

The policies of the Republican party that are good? How about wanting border security? How about wanting to strengthen our military (one of the true enumerated powers of the federal government)? How about trying to rebuild the middle class that was so damaged over the previous administration? Wanting to get rid of the toxic parts of Obamacare.

@seawulf575 – Those aren’t very specific. In what ways specifically, for example, is the Republican party “trying to rebuild the middle class”?

Examples: Border security: Wanting to build a wall to keep illegals from entering this country basically unobstructed. They want to deport…permanently…those illegals that have committed crimes repeatedly. They want federal immigration laws enforced as opposed to the establishment of sanctuary cities.
Strengthening our military: Obama and the Dems weakened our military in equipment, staffing and funding for 8 years. Our soldiers, who we ask to risk their lives, haven’t seen much in the way of raises for a long time. I find this dangerous for the national security. The Repubs traditionally, and recently, have pushed for military support. And establishment of the military is one of the main enumerated powers of the federal government.
Middle Class: Under the previous administration, the median income of the middle class dropped about 20%. The number of people that qualified as being middle class dropped significantly with some becoming wealthy, but many, many more becoming poor. This was all done through damaging regulations that negatively impacted the economy. The recent tax bill which was mainly driven from the Repubs helped ease some of the damage being done to businesses. One of the main results has been that businesses are hiring for good jobs, not just part time as was the trend before, and that those working are getting pay raises and bonuses. Add to that a Republican president that wants to make better trade deals with other nations and has worked with big industry to start bringing good jobs…manufacturing jobs…back to this country.
Obamacare: They opposed this horrible piece of legislation from the start. This was created and enacted solely by Dems. Everything the Repubs warned would happen came to pass. Availability of services dropped, doctors didn’t accept Obamacare insurance, Healthcare premiums and deductibles skyrocketed, employers started laying people off or only hiring part time workers. It punished healthy, working people. To oppose this was the right thing. Now…the thing the Repubs dropped the ball on is that they should have had a solution in their back pocket to pull out when they had the power. Instead they yammered for years and now are struggling to figure anything out.

Republicans skew old so they die a lot.

How about abortion. Republicans are very pro life in general and that’s a standard platform. And starting next year no baby deduction, finally.

@KNOWITALL is absolutely correct. Republicans are outstanding in supressing the rights of women.

I’ve been thinking about this question non-stop since dinner – about 4 hours ago.

I cannot come up with one good thing to say about current Republicans.

If you would let us go back to the days of Nelson Rockefeller, then it’s easy. But Reagan pooped in the pool and the party has stunk since.

@Rarebear Pretty sure you meant protecting innocent babies. Soon PP will get no federal dollars to keep the doors open. Trump has a few more years.

@KNOWITALL – why do that? Who’s advocating killing babies?

Nope. I meant exactly what I wrote. No federal dollars go to abortion and the fact that the Republicans want to close planned parenthood which is the only way for many poor women to get women’s health care shows how much the Republicans hate women liberty.

Did that get you all worked up? It’s a womans legal choice and over five million baby girls have died since 1973. The ultimate womans right is to live, doctor.

You’re right. My mistake. They don’t hate ALL women. Rich women who can afford health care and Jesus loving white Christian women are okay. They just hate poor women. Especially poor non-white immigrant women who have no other access to health care.

@Rarebear Do you possibly not know that was the exact reason old girl stated abortion was the answer to a surging minority population. Read up on her. I have no reason to lie. The majority of abortions are for poor minorities, look it up buttercup.

Oh. They hate poor men too because poor immigrant men go to planned parenthood to get health care as well.

Except the Christian ones of course. Republicans like the Christians because they can be more easily fooled by their lies.

^Don’t forget the working poor. I relied on PP for birth control and annual exams when I was in my 20s. I’ve never had an abortion.

Yup. Exactly.

Yes we can. They aren’t as far right as The American Conservative Party (Tea Baggers).

@kritiper Dont forget the Birthers!

I think the basic Republican platform, as written, could be ok, but the implementation I really can’t get behind. There’s no need for a prosperous country to be cruel and there’s no reason to undervalue the infrastructure that allows business to prosper in the US.

As far as leaders, I don’t particularly line up with old school thinking, but I can respect someone who actually lives their values, and doesn’t mind standing up to represent them. McCain has been unafraid to speak his mind, Susan Collins has taken some principled stands, including health care.

I’d probably vote Kasich over Oprah with what I know right now. So I guess the platform isn’t that repugnant to me personally compared to some here. I just wonder why it has to be implemented with such callousness.

But let’s look, what’s the GOP Platform all about anyway? This is usually how I decide to vote, looking at issues.

From the GOP platform site, they have a little checklist for important traits of Republicans.

Country is exceptional – ok, I’d rather live here than most places, I feel exceptionally lucky to have been born in the US

Constitution should be honored, valued, and upheld – ok, the Constitution is 200 years old, and was always intended to be amended, but it’s served well. Good enough.

Leaders should serve people, not special interests – that’s good, so less influenced by money, right? I’m sure money doesn’t hold undue influence in politics, right?

Families and communities should be strong and free from government intrusion – yeah, like storing all internet communication or tracking without a warrant. I agree. Sounds like we’re on the same page.

Institution of traditional marriage is the foundation of society – No, sorry.

Government should be smaller, smarter and more efficient – well heck yeah, I like smart.

Health care decisions should be made by us and our doctors – That sounds good. But who is “us”, shouldn’t that be everyone?

Paychecks should not be wasted on poorly run government programs – ok, no wasting sounds good.

Military must be strong and prepared to defend our shores – So, staying close to home, are we?

Culture should respect and protect life – Agreed, no one should be afraid to leave their house, call for help, or feel the need to stay in a bad situation. The government can help with that at all levels. Sweet.

Children should never be left in failing schools – Agreed, all schools should be world-class and the country will prosper with a well educated population. This should really be the foundation of our combined success for the next 50 years.

Veterans should have the best care and opportunities in the world – How about equal opportunities + help to catch up when they return? GI Bill is a great example.

Social programs should help lift people out of poverty – Heck yeah, now we’re talking. This sounds like helping people who maybe weren’t born with the same raw materials and opportunities as those at the top. That’s a great idea and we should get on that.

America should be energy independent – Sunshine for everyone!

I guess the details are really the difference.

Sorry. I can’t think of anything…

@funkdaddy I’d definitely vote for Kasich over Oprah. I truly hate Oprah. But I’d vote for Oprah over Trump.

I am still pondering but I do like @funkdaddy‘s use of the platform as a basis. The devil is in the details however.

I will sleep on it.

“They aren’t as far right as The American Conservative Party (Tea Baggers).

Virtually all teabaggers are Republicans

Dont forget the Birthers!

Virtually all Republicans

@KNOWITALL What does Planned Parenthood do? Seems like a pretty bad organization from your telling. That sounds interesting.

What different activities do they perform? Please include numbers. How do they spend their budget?

Thanks in advance.

@Call_Me_Jay They’re horrible. They do primary care medicine and take care of poor people. They give low cost or free HIV care, cancer prevention, birth control, abortion services, STD treatments, pap smears, and pregnancy care. They are evil Communists.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services

This reminds me I have to give my donation to them this year.

They’re both predictable and consistent. They have a huge advantage in a simplistic message ideally suited for simple minds.

I keep coming back to this question because I want to say something positive. I don’t blindly vote for one side. I voted for McCain in 2008 because I felt we needed someone with experience to clean up the mess made by Bush. McCain is able to work with both sides and that’s something I admire. I didn’t think it was the right time for a newcomer.

At this time in my life the Republican party wants to harm my child and others like him. I don’t have anything positive to say about that. They are my enemy at the moment.

I just donated 50 bucks to Planned Parenthood. How many people reading this will match my donation? C’mon. @KNOWITALL wants Planned Parenthood to close and let poor people die of HIV. Do you agree with her?

https://secure.ppaction.org/site/Donation2?24219.donation=form1&idb=377078475&df_id=24219&mfc_pref=T&24219.donation=root&df_id=24219&idb=1491686819&mfc_pref=T

^I would donate if I wasn’t invested in moving my transgender child out of Trumpland, rural Illinois. I’ll help when I can.

Good luck. My cousin is a farmer out there. Nice guy but agree. Trumpland.

@Rarebear . I am happy that you are championing PP. But I would say, that according to my understanding of @KNOWITALL, I think your insinuation of her motives are quite inaccurate.

She’s anti-abortion, and maybe ignorant of all the good PP does. But I feel you vastly oversimplified, and frankly overstepped, in your post. Beating down the rational conservatives, will not aid our cause, or that of PP.

I have a great deal of respect for you. Please don’t tarnish it…

@MrGrimm888 Look. When people make snide comments to me like “look it up, buttercup” and fail to look inwardly at what they write, ignoring the facts and insinuating outright lies, then as far as I’m concerned it’s open season.

As far as your respect, thank you, but I didn’t ask for it. I stand by what I wrote.

People who oppose Planned Parenthood and similar programs because of religious beliefs and without an understanding of what they do to me are among the lowest of the low. They’re down there with the anti-vaxxers. They want to close clinics and leave people completely without health care and could give a crap that they wait until they get really sick to go to the emergency room. Planned Parenthood opponents, some of them who are terrorists, are so blinded by their single minded hatred of abortion that they ignore the Hyde Amendment (look it up, buttercup), and the fact Planned Parenthood is the ONLY repeat ONLY place that many people can get health care—mostly immigrants.

So, yes @KNOWITALL I got “all worked up” (your words). I get angry when ignorant Christians use their Jesus platform to justify taking away health care for poor people—in effect making them sicker and killing them. And if I hurt your feelings? Well, you brought up the abortion issue and Planned Parenthood, not me, and maybe now you and your ilk will think a little harder about your point of view.

And, for the record, just so everybody is clear. I am a conservative.

@Rarebear It was the last straw for me when a local school board member and former softball coach of my child told me that my son needed to be saved by Jesus because he believes Satan is persuading him. I have no respect for anyone who votes for people like this man.

I’ve never met a left leaning racist or homophobe.

Oh I have. But they are not as common.

I would just say that no party that has John McCain as a senator can be all bad.

@Rarebear Silly man, you can’t hurt my feelings. Like Nazi’s killing Jews, you’ll bear the burden of hindsight in history imo. Just remember, David Duke and his bunch support your efforts.

@MrGrimm In theory I’d love to be pro choice, but that means I’d have to condone the murder of millions of innocent children, which I cant do as a human. Listen there are other clinics available for healthcare, I used one myself that also receives funding, they just dont push abortions, they give options. I’m not arguing this subject for fun, I truly believe the numbers and stats speak for themselves. And you should never defend and insult me in the same post, I dont need or want support from someone who defends minorities while approving the murder of their children. To me its a direct violation of Rarebears Hippocratic oath to do no harm, period.

@CallMe Are you baiting me? Unlike Seawulf, I’m not willing to debate liberals for long on serious subjects that no one will benefit from. You either are okay with abortion or you are not, but make no mistake, it’s a business not just a service.

Hey! What are you trying to say? ;-)

@KNOWITALL I asked you a question. Thanks for confirming that you are unwilling or unable to provide facts. No surprise.

@Call_Me_Jay so you were baiting her. No surprise.

@Seawulf lol, nothing against you buddy, but these folks just like to wind people up, no one will change their mind. It’s a waste of time. Been there, done that. I dont go to church and lean left on many social issues but look at how they throw ‘christian’ at me as an insult constantly if I disagree. Funny.

@CallMe What, is this my first day here? I pay attention to the posts I see, good try though!

If you want to reduce abortions, you would be advocating for sex ed, contraception availability, pre-natal care and post-natal care.

You don’t. You’re not honestly or rationally approaching the issue.

lean left on many social issues

Funny!

@CallMe I’m not responsible for what you understand in my posts, only what I say. Read my answers again, maybe it’ll help.

@Call_Me_Jay and @Rarebear – Are you more upset with Republican leaders, who cynically use “culture war” issues as a way to gain support for their anti-worker and anti-poor economic policies, or people who genuinely believe differently than you on issues like abortion for ethical and/or religious reasons?

@KNOWITALL – why have you gone full troll? I don’t get it.

Wow. I go to sleep and Godwin’s law takes over.

@funkdaddy “In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional…”

I posted one simple comment pertinent to the thread-see definition above. If some people decide to discuss it further, sometimes I engage them, sometimes I don’t. Some seem to feel this is some kind of free for all on anyone who thinks differently than you, it’s not okay. Why are you so afraid of dissenting opinions? It’s just words.

@Rarebear You say that like it’s a crime, seems pretty pertinent by definition.
“the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.”

@KNOWITALL . I don’t recall insulting you. Anyways, you said PP “pushes abortions.” I would think that is incorrect.

@KNOWITALL – Your original post was followed quickly by

“Did that get you all worked up? It’s a womans legal choice and over five million baby girls have died since 1973. The ultimate womans right is to live, doctor.”

Which fits the definition of inflammatory, extraneous and off-topic. Trolling. With a personal attack to boot.

Trolls say things like

“Why are you so afraid of dissenting opinions? It’s just words.”
“I’m not responsible for what you understand in my posts, only what I say.”
“but that means I’d have to condone the murder of millions of innocent children”
“I dont need or want support from someone who defends minorities while approving the murder of their children”

That’s defensive and doesn’t further discussion at all, It’s everything you said you didn’t like about fluther.

it was always argumentative, and borderline antagonistic at times, mostly over politics and religion

I’m surprised is all, you seemed to want the kinder, more thoughtful, fluther, but now are actually working against it. If it’s a bad day, or there’s something you need to get off your chest, great, let’s help with that. But right now it just feels like an angsty attempt to justify something unknown.

People who decide they no longer care, but aren’t going to let any comment go by, don’t last long anywhere in the world. It’s caustic.

@MrGrimm888 “Rhyan told us that while working for Planned Parenthood, she had been instructed multiple times she should work to “increase their revenue” inside the clinic. “We were told that we needed to push abortion services, as that was the service that generated the most income,” says Rhyan.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/healthcare/316162-women-deserve-better-than-planned-parenthood-i-know-i-worked

@funkdaddy Some things are hot button issues for me, this is one of them. My original post was not inflammatory imo. As I’ve been told before here, feel free not to respond to my posts and scroll on, it’s not a requirement that you acknowledge my posts in any way, shape or form. @Rarebear and I have argued several times over many years and occasionally even PM in a civilized manner.
Troll is just another addition to the list of insults I’ve received over the years here, none of which affect me in the slightest, except as an insult to the collective intelligence.

‘Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.’

@KNOWITALL – This is a hot button issue for me too. Please understand what you’re putting out and read your words with my experience in mind. Tell me where that puts your view?

We agree on this line

‘Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.’

And I’ll let you be. FWIW, I used troll to describe what you’re doing, it wasn’t intended as an insult. I’m just surprised and disappointed that someone who was happy to engage in thoughtful discussion has decided it’s not worth it, and thought I would make a final attempt.

Enjoy and good luck.

@KNOWITALL . I have honestly never been to a PP clinic. So. I will refrain from debating your story.

@thisismyusername “Are you more upset with Republican leaders, who cynically use “culture war” issues as a way to gain support for their anti-worker and anti-poor economic policies, or people who genuinely believe differently than you on issues like abortion for ethical and/or religious reasons?”

I don’t quite understand the question. Are you asking who I’m more upset with? Can you rephrase?

@funkdaddy I’m truly sorry that happened to your family.

A gf of mine recently went through something similar and also dealt with the ‘against my religion’ issue, which I tried to help her through.

As far as reading my words with your experience in mind, I will say that your story was about a fetus incompatible with life, you made an educated choice just as my gf did. Completely different than the majority of cases.

I am happy to engage in thoughtful discussion, but it isn’t always worth it, and to me this was not a thoughtful or on topic discussion, the thread was derailed and not by me. Peace.

@Rarebear – This might require a separate thread. Let me attempt to ask it here though…

Republicans adopted “culture war” issues as a political tool to gather working class support for the party – while it works to hurt the working class.

When discussing an issue, such as abortion, with someone like @KNOWITALL, are you more upset with her or Republican politicians and the party? She is not the party elite, who is cynically playing up these religious issues (that they do not believe in) to motivate voters. She is not the one manufacturing these divisions among people who otherwise would have a common cause.

In other words, is it possible that @KNOWITALL is a person of well-intentions who holds a religious/ethical belief about abortion that differs from your own? Is it possible to find common ground for now on the issues of economic justice?

What if the Republican party didn’t have the “culture war” issues to fall back on? If you made under $250k/yr, you’d laugh if someone asked you to vote Republican.

And while class issues are pretty concrete, issues such as abortion are tricky. Do you find it helpful to snark at people with sincere beliefs? Is it possible that this is exactly what wealthy Republican strategists hope for?

You’re asking separate questions and making separate points. I’ll try to break it down.

“Republicans adopted “culture war” issues as a political tool to gather working class support for the party – while it works to hurt the working class.”
I quibble with the “while it hurts the working class” comment for reasons that is not germain to this discussion. But in essence you are correct. This was strategy that was utilized by the precursers to the Moral Majority in the late ‘70s.

“are you more upset with her or Republican politicians and the party?”
If I understand you correctly the party. I don’t know her nor do I care. But Republican leaders are not debating me on this website.

“is it possible that @KNOWITALL is a person of well-intentions who holds a religious/ethical belief about abortion that differs from your own?”
Sure.

“Is it possible to find common ground for now on the issues of economic justice?”
Knowing what I know about you, I expect that you and I will have a harder time coming to common ground on the issue of economics than I would with her. :-)

“What if the Republican party didn’t have the “culture war” issues to fall back on?”
Then I’d be more likely to vote Republican.

“And while class issues are pretty concrete”
Disagree. It’s pretty nuanced actually.

“issues such as abortion are tricky”
Disagree. It’s pretty clear, actually.

“Do you find it helpful to snark at people with sincere beliefs?”
Sometimes, yes. If it serves a purpose. In this case, it was pretty effective.

“Is it possible that this is exactly what wealthy Republican strategists hope for?”
Wealthy Republican strategist don’t give a flying fuck about us. We don’t have the money.

@KNOWITALL you are going to be the troll because you have the opposing view on things. You know that. Forget that @Call_Me_Jay purposely tried baiting you….they will never see that as troll behavior….

Though I am not a Republican, I do sympathize with their desire for stronger border security and less forgiving policies toward illegal immigrants. I’ve expressed in other threads that I recognize that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently here is not a viable solution, but we need to “draw a line” and deal with the ones who are here and then indicate that those who would attempt to come here illegally past that point risk deportation (including those who think their children will get a pass if they bring them here).

I also am opposed to abortion on a moral level, but I’m not convinced that Republican attempts at stopping abortion will be successful. In general, my position is not so much about banning abortion entirely (I’m opposed to circumcision too, but I don’t have any desire to ban it), but rather discouraging abortion. So when @KNOWITALL brings up that PP pushes abortion, that’s troubling to me. It should never be “pushed”. It should always be a last resort.

Anyway, those are just two examples where I tend to lean more conservative. I am not a Democrat either.

@thisismyusername Abortion may be tricky, but make no mistake it is without a doubt a class issue. Which class is it that is exclusively denied access to abortions?

And immigration is another way I strongly disagree with the Republicans. I am in favor of open borders.
https://www.cato.org/research/immigration

@thisismyusername @Demosthenes I think the misunderstanding is that I call myself a liberal republican, vote for both parties and research the issues myself, instead of listening to talking heads and parroting their opinions. When I ‘speak’ as a Rep, I know it irritates people here, but then again, those people elected Trump. You can’t defeat what you make no attempt to understand, I’m truly just trying to foster understanding, but people get angry and it doesn’t always work. TBH you should hear me argue with conservatives here about why Trump didn’t fight back on SSM, or how LGBTQ rights don’t matter, etc… I’ve literally argued with my own family member who helps make policy in our state.

@Rarebear
“Do you find it helpful to snark at people with sincere beliefs?”
Sometimes, yes. If it serves a purpose. In this case, it was pretty effective.

May I ask how you feel anything you said or did in this thread has been effective from your point of view?

@Seawulf Yes, that’s an old trick here. Getting you to spend tons of time to prove a point with stats, etc…then you realize you wasted all that energy just to make a few people laugh at your efforts and not even care to read the information or check out the links. It’s a shutdown technique that works quite often until people realize what’s happening.

@KNOWITALL I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. In fact, I would change “you can’t defeat what you make no attempt to understand” to simply “you can’t win over what you make no attempt to understand”. So many people make no attempt to understand the other side or they live in a world where they are completely insulated from the other side and see them as faceless alien beings with unintelligible ideas. As long as attitudes like that persist, we will never overcome division in our country.

@Demosthenes Much like @funkdaddy I have my own pov from personal experiences.

What I would have loved @Rarebear to ask is WHY I feel the way I do. Then I would have asked why he’s so passionate about ending life as a doctor sworn to protect life.

To me that’s conversation, that’s interesting, I may even learn something. I actually find it very hurtful, that he calls on donations in my honor as an opponent, to that clinic and normally I wouldn’t admit that, but that hurt my heart, as it was intended to do.

As an analogy, why not tell an animal lover that you’re going to bash a dogs skull in, in their honor tonight, after arguing about whether animals should be euthanized or not. It’s his right, but I would never ever say or do anything like that to any of you.

@stanleybmanly: ”@thisismyusername Abortion may be tricky, but make no mistake it is without a doubt a class issue.”

Of course it is. Everything is.

But it’s also a tricky ethical issue. There is religion, etc. The actual act of abortion – not who gets one – is considered immoral by some.

I’m not saying that we can regress on reproductive freedom. Rather, when discussing these issues, it might not make sense to simply ridicule them.

If you were to sit down with @KNOWITALL and have a discussion, I’d suspect you probably wouldn’t hear her say that she’d like to redistribute $1.5 trillion primarily upwards towards people and corporations that don’t need the money. (sorry if I’m assuming incorrectly here).

All I’m suggesting is that there are people making up a large part of this country who would be a legitimate challenge to power if they realized that there are efforts to keep them distracted (“culture wars”). These are not our enemy. They are our brothers and sisters, and I trust them far more than rich pro-choice capitalists who are in a rush to get to brunch rather than effect change.

@KNOWITALL Oh, you found it hurtful that I donated to a clinic that does cancer preventioin for poor people? That’s too bad.

@Rarebear You’ve never been quite this sadistic before, I’m just very surprised.

@thisismyusername No, I would never say that. Correct.

Wow. And more ad hominems. Awesome. Maybe I will donate again.

@thisismyusername: ”“What if the Republican party didn’t have the “culture war” issues to fall back on?”

@Rarebear: “Then I’d be more likely to vote Republican.”

Right. You’re a doctor. You have money and power and are ok with screwing the poor even more. Ok.

So, maybe your claims about abortion aren’t necessarily driven by an ethics that you and I share – even though I am extremely pro-choice. That’s an interesting discussion right there.

But for most people who are hurting, the “culture wars” have been a way of creating the apparent contradiction of the non-rich Republican.

@thisismyusername I am in complete agreement with your sentiments. And I for one would be uneasy with the idea that resistance to abortions should be abolished. But this being said, I refuse to accept the idea that the state or any individual be allowed to compel a woman to bear a child.

^ Then we’re in total agreement.

@stanleybmanly – Let me be clear – I’m saying that we should fight for reproductive freedom with everything we have. But ridiculing someone’s religious/ethical beliefs might not be the path forward. Demanding that our elected officials stand up to anti-choice legislation is critical.

But in my opinion, finding common ground with someone who is a pawn in an elite game of political chess is a more appealing and (I suggest) more effective. I have more empathy for anti-choice working poor than I do pro-choice arrogant rich people.

@thisismyusername Don’t even go there. I take care of poor people and make them healthy. I work with the poor every single day. I work for a government public health service and I make a third of what I could in private practice just so I can take care of the poor. I have devoted my life to taking care of poor and underserved people. So fuck you. I’m out of here.

Oops.

@stanleybmanly If I may offer a comment, I don’t think anyone wants to compel a woman to bear a child, at least no one I know.

The goal seems to be to render the procedures unnecessary unless in cases of medical necessity, rape or incest, which is a VERY small percentage of all terminations, by using birth control, personal responsibility, and even abstinence. Basically to stop having a living creature pay the price with its life for our behavior as adults.

@thisismyusername Even if I found his comments hurtful, I’m sad he’s leaving like that and I for one, as a poor child of a single mom, appreciate his efforts to help the needy, which is also one of the biggest goals in my life.

@KNOWITALL And that goal is undeniably the MAJOR function of PP.

@stanleybmanly I disagree, read the article please, when you have time and I’m happy to discuss further.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/jun/07/marjorie-dannenfelser/abortion-opponents-claim-planned-parenthood-had-30/

“Over half of PP facilities are in medically underserved communities, and unlike most health-care facilities, PP offers same-day appointments, longer hours, and weekend services, making access to preventive health care easier for people who work nontraditional or long hours. In total, Planned Parenthood provides 4,970,000 people worldwide with sexual and reproductive health care and education yearly.” “Local community centers do not have the bandwidth to take on the Medicaid- and Medicare-supported patients who depend on access to PP’s availability of resources. A study by the Guttmacher Institute found that in the 491 counties where there are currently Planned Parenthood clinics, 103 of them have no other clinics where low-income patients can gain access to affordable contraceptive services, should PP’s services be drained.”

https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/misconceptions-about-planned-parenthood.html

@Aethelwine I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact that the healthcare services they provide, other than terminations and referrals, are not helpful. In the end a condom is more affordable and humane, than terminating a viable fetus.

In our area, we have Oacac, which is income-based. Five dollars for a month of pills, all the free condoms you want. No insurance needed.

Another thing we are not acknowledging are the emotional and psychological ramifications, as well as physical ramifications, including death.
https://www.liveaction.org/news/centers-for-disease-control-reveals-more-women-dying-from-abortion-than-we-thought/

@KNOWITALL I read the article and it was about tax payer financing of PP and whether or not the organization turned a profit.

All birth control has a failure rate. Obviously pro-choice people are in agreement that preventing a pregnancy is much more ideal than an abortion. But accidental and unwanted pregnancies will always happen, and it is inhumane to force a woman to bear a child.

@Rarebear: ”@thisismyusername Don’t even go there. I take care of poor people and make them healthy. I work with the poor every single day. I work for a government public health service and I make a third of what I could in private practice just so I can take care of the poor. I have devoted my life to taking care of poor and underserved people. So fuck you. I’m out of here.”

I see you’ve left fluther (for now). But if you see this – I didn’t mean to insult you. Rather, you stated very clearly that you would be more likely to vote Republican if it weren’t for the “culture war” issues. There is no interpretation required here. If you support Republican economics, you explicitly support class war on the poor and middle class. Period.

And this has nothing to do with how nice of a guy you are or whether you serve a low-income community in your practice. In fact there is nothing about your decision to “care for poor people” that would negate the fact that you would advocate for policies that directly hurt poor people (if Republicans were pro-choice).

@KNOWITALL You are saying all of these people who rely on PP can easily go elsewhere based on anecdotal evidence. I provided information that clearly states it is not as easy for everyone as it is for you.

@stanleybmanly Yes, I’m not sure helping the needy is the major goal, which is why I posted the profit.

@Aethelwine It’s a fact, not anecdotal. In your own link, 388 countries have access to other choices, that’s a significant number and proves to me that saying PP is ‘harmless’ for ‘womens health care’ is misleading.

Sorry for the length of the following but I did want to respond so I took the preamble to the Republican Party Platform and went through it point by point. On some things I agree, so I guess that is a positive the the Republicans, on some I disagree. I have tried to outline why I do not agree.

Overall, I would say the only truly positive thing I can say about the Republican Party leadership is that they make the Democrats look good in comparison. I find them all to be reprehensible moneygrubbing, self-serving scumbags, as are most of the Democratic leadership, true but to a lesser degree, and I do not see any change in the foreseeable future as long as the majority of the US population is effectively kept out of the process.
We have changed administrations and what we have done, instead of “draining the swamp” is remove one set of pond scum and replaced it with an even more self-serving version of the same.
On to the party platform:
With this platform, we the Republican Party reaffirm the principles that unite us in a common purpose.
We believe in American exceptionalism. – Disagree, while the US might have some ideas or beliefs that differ from those of other countries, different does not necessarily mean better. We have some things we do better and some areas that other nations outdo us in and we should strive for improvement.
We believe the United States of America is unlike any other nation on earth. – Agree, just like every other nation on earth is different from each other.
We believe America is exceptional because of our historic role — first as refuge, then as defender, and now as exemplar of liberty for the world to see. – Disagree, we have become a decadent, self-serving country with a God complex. We have potential to become a beacon but that would require a significant paradigm shift toward becoming a more inclusive and less militaristic society. At this time we are heading the opposite direction.
We affirm — as did the Declaration of Independence: that all are created equal, endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.- Agree that all are equal and have inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but would add that achievement of happiness for all should become a goal, not just a pursuit.
We believe in the Constitution as our founding document. – Agree
We believe the Constitution was written not as a flexible document, but as our enduring covenant. – Disagree, human beings are resourceful and adept at change, that is why we are where we are. As conditions change our system should also evolve. The Constitution is a base, a foundation for our country to build upon, it is not the entire structure.
We believe our constitutional system — limited government, separation of powers, federalism, and the rights of the people — must be preserved uncompromised for future generations. – Agree but do not see that we are doing so. Over the past five decades I have watched the government, whether local, state or federal, become a tool of the upper class; the erosion of the separation of powers; an increase in the power of the executive and a corresponding dereliction of duties and responsibilities by the legislature; the loss of influence for the large majority of Americans as money flows into and perverts the system; not new I know but particularly more intrusive in the past two decades. In short, we have already ceased to “persevere uncompromised” our system and allowed our government to be bought by the highest bidder.
We believe political freedom and economic freedom are indivisible.- On the fence regarding this. Government has the responsibility to keep its constituents, all of them, safe and that requires regulations and punishments for those, individual or corporate, who would jeopardize this safety whether by accident or by design. The government should not be able to tell you what business you may or may not participate in but should be an integral part of making sure it is done in a responsible manner. Laisse faire is not the correct way for the vast majority.
When political freedom and economic freedom are separated — both are in peril; when united, they are invincible. – Again, with restraints in place, sure.
We believe that people are the ultimate resource — and that the people, not the government, are the best stewards of our country’s God-given natural resources. – Wow, someone should point this out to Ryan Zinke and Trump. I think you need to reword it to read “all the people” not just those who can afford to buy influence.
As Americans and as Republicans we wish for peace — so we insist on strength. We will make America safe. We seek friendship with all peoples and all nations, but we recognize and are prepared to deal with evil in the world. – Agree as long as this does not mean we continue in our self-ordained role as the worlds policemen and use our resources toward improving our own country not keeping and installing military installations worldwide.
Based on these principles, this platform is an invitation and a roadmap. It invites every American to join us and shows the path to a stronger, safer, and more prosperous America.- Agree in principle but in actuality it appears that differences are not tolerated well.
This platform is optimistic because the American people are optimistic.- Agree in principle
This platform lays out — in clear language — the path to making America great and united again.- Disagree, this platform is vague in details.
For the past 8 years America has been led in the wrong direction. – Agree but believe that within the last year we have gone even further down the wrong path, not made the corrections necessary.
Our economy has become unnecessarily weak with stagnant wages. People living paycheck to paycheck are struggling, sacrificing, and suffering. – Agree
Americans have earned and deserve a strong and healthy economy.- Agree
Our standing in world affairs has declined significantly — our enemies no longer fear us and our friends no long trust us.- Agree but even more so in the past year. Again, we are going in the wrong direction. Our friends now distrust us more than ever, our enemies fear our lack of qualified leadership and its unpredictable nature but so do our friends.
People want and expect an America that is the most powerful and respected country on the face of the earth. – Disagree, Americans expect it but the rest of the world believes we are a threat to the very existence of the earth or at least humanity.
The men and women of our military remain the world’s best. The have been shortchanged in numbers, equipment, and benefits by a Commander in Chief who treats the Armed Forces and our veterans as a necessary inconvenience. – Disagree, the military demands, and gets, a very large and ever increasing portion of the budget. They have more than necessary and need to both reduce the scope of their responsibility (but this is not their call but that of the legislature) and reduce the waste and inefficiency that has always been rampant within the system. I do, however agree that they are a necessary part of our existence as a nation, just not as a club to force our will worldwide.
The President and the Democratic party have dismantled Americans’ system of healthcare. They have replaced it with a costly and complicated scheme that limits choices and takes away our freedom. – Agree to a degree. The present system was a compromise made with, and for the benefit of, the complicity of the insurance, pharmaceutical and medical community and did not address the actual problems of our present health care system. Major changes are required but these changes are, again, a part of the needed paradigm shift needed regarding the needs of the citizens of the United States and the role of government in achieving and fulfilling these needs.
The President and the Democratic party have abandoned their promise of being accountable to the American people. – Agree, they have, as has the Republican wing of the Party of the Wealthy. Unfortunately the vast majority of the populace have no representation within government.
They have nearly doubled the size of the national debt. – Agree. and to the benefit of their wealthy benefactors.
They refuse to control our borders but try to control our schools, farms, businesses, and even our religious institutions. They have directly attacked the production of American energy and the industry-related jobs that have sustained families and communities. – Disagree. There is no real border problem and those that do exist can be addressed without the construction of an environmentally deleterious physical border wall and without the total militarization of our borders.. There are parts of the immigration system that need revision and should be addressed. Placing regulations or restrictions on an industry, such as that of energy, is a function of the government in its duty to protect the health and wellbeing of the citizentry and response to a complete and total lack of ethical self-regulation within the industry. Same goes farming, and all other businesses that abuse the rights of the population. While religions institutions may have been prohibited from acts that run afoul of other laws that protect the rights of others, they have in no way been reduced in stature or been controlled.,
The President has been regulating to death a free market economy that he does not like and does not understand. He defies the laws of the United States by refusing to enforce those with which he does not agree. And he appoints judges who legislate from the bench rather than apply the law. – Disagree. The free market system, like that of Marxism and communism is a failing system that no one wants to fix. Obama may have selectively chosen to enforce laws but I have seen no improvement in the last year, only a change of emphasis into which to enforce. I see no evidence that judges appointed by him use the bench as a legislative tool and more that judges appointed by previous administrations or even by the present administration.
We, as Republicans and Americans, cannot allow this to continue. That is why the many sections of this platform affirm our trust in the people, our faith in their judgment, and our determination to help them take back their country.- Nothing to agree or disagree with. But a general bullshit statement since the only people they actually care about are those who provide the funding to keep them in office and to whom they are beholding to; and that is not the general populace.
This means removing the power from unelected, unaccountable government. – Agree but no evidence this is actually happening.
This means relieving the burden and expense of punishing government regulations. – Disagree, this is just payback for their financial backers in order to keep the money flowing into government. What regulations are being eliminated are being done so at the expense of the health and wellbeing of the general populace for the financial gain of the few.
And this means returning to the people and the states the control that belongs to them. It is the control and the power to make their own decisions about what’s best for themselves and their families and communities. – Technically Agree but again, I see this as disingenuous and unevenly applied to only those areas important to the controlling party leadership.

@KNOWITALL – The Politifact link you provided to show profit claims that it’s “mostly false”.

“In the second part of our ruling, we looked at whether “excess revenue over expenses” for a nonprofit is the same as “profit.” Most of the experts we consulted say no. And the one who would call it profit agrees that it’s not treated the same way as profit for a corporation. Companies distribute their profits to shareholders and owners, while nonprofits put their excess revenues back into the organization’s work. We think the real sting in this claim comes from the word “profits,” so we weighed that more heavily than the vague dollar figures in our ruling. We rate this claim Barely True.”

They make Democrats look good even though they are not. Almost all Washington D.C. politicians are greedy corporate shills.

@thisismyusername My apologies, it is officially a non-profit. I was wrong. (Although I posted the wrong article lol)

@KNOWITALL But the gist of the article is that there is in fact NO profit

@KNOWITALL It’s a fact for you, not everyone. 103 counties is a lot of people. It seems you don’t understand this. This leaves thousands and thousands of people without the resources they need. Most of these people are poor. Getting rid of PP would add to higher rates of unwanted pregnancy, STD’s, cancer and abortion.