Is it equally wrong to knowingly disparage a lifestyle or religious choice, if you don't believe in that choice?

The wise one chooses well when to say what to whom.

(BTW, there are many parents who accept the sexual orientation of their LGBTQ children.)

I’d like to make one correction. Being LGBTQ is not a lifestyle nor a choice. A lifestyle choice is being vegan. You don’t choose to be LGBTQ.

YES! as long as they do not try and enforce those ideas or beliefs on myself.

@Aethel So my trans friendmade a decision to begin transitioning two years ago. Her choice on living as a man or a woman. But that’s not what the question is about, it’s choosing to engage in a conversation.

Listen, if you bring it up, prepare to be destroyed.

@KNOWITALL: “So my trans friendmade a decision to begin transitioning two years ago. Her choice on living as a man or a woman.”

Deciding to come out or transition is certainly a choice. But sexuality and gender is not.

@KNOWITALL: “But that’s not what the question is about, ir’s choosing to engage in a conversation.”

Sometimes the details or examples in a question make answering the question literally impossible. The LGBTQ “choice” thing makes answering this question quite challenging.

@ragingloli No one here has the power to destroy eachother, it’s just a question.
@Thisis Well too late to edit and everyone here knows I have zero problems with LGBTQ’s so I don’t see an issue unless people choose to create one. Plus there are plenty of lifestyle choices like being childfree or polygamous that could be pertinent. My mind doesn’t automatically go to LGBTQ’s like some of you lol.

@KNOWITALL: “Well too late to edit and everyone here knows I have zero problems with LGBTQ’s so I don’t see an issue unless people choose to create one.”

But rather than apologize or acknowledge that you included something that is not a choice (and therefore not relevant to your question), you doubled down and made some comment about someone choosing to transition.

Nobody is making this an issue. You seem to have injected this into a question about choice. Either you are intentionally trying to make an issue of this or you are truly still confused about gender and sexuality. If it’s the latter, this is a discussion we need to have.

@Thisis Apologize for what, asking a question someone prescribed their own meaning to? No, that’s their issue not mine.

By the way, that’s the second time you’ve said we need to discuss sexuality. Feel free to PM if you have issues to discuss or post a thread. I have zero issues with the subject.

@KNOWITALL: “Apologize for what, asking a question someone prescribed their own meaning to? No, that’s their issue not mine.”

Then maybe you could rephrase your question so it’s clear how we should answer. Maybe we misunderstood.

@Thisis I listed examples which seem sufficient as explanation, thanks.

In my life, you can discuss anything with me and I am comfortable discussing anything with you, so long as we are polite.

Ask questions, don’t assume. Don’t name call or raise your voice. Ya know, basic shit we learned in kindergarten.

If you can’t do that, I don’t talk about it.

Also, even if we can do that, I may choose to avoid the topic if it seems it’ll be too much work.

I only have so much give-a-shit to go around.

If I think we’re just going to talk past each other and each side stay convinced of their position, I most likely won’t engage unless you are egregiously in my face. If I feel there might be value to the exchange in terms of opening myself or another person up to a new way of thinking, I will discuss. If I feel you are being bigoted or racist, I would probably say I disagree and leave it at that. I have one friend who is a Trump supporter. She knows where I stand and I know where she stands and it is left at that.

@Cookie Same, literally will discuss anything if productive.

I’ll discuss whatever. Some should be careful what they wish to discuss though. I’m quite blunt, and some get offended by my opinions.

Context is everything. Really. If you leap in with the intent of bludgeoning someone with your own truth, then shame on you.
Refusing to listen to a reasoned and civilly presented rebuttal to an incomplete argument that you have presented for scrutiny is also not OK.

I have been in this type of circumstance twice in recent days, and it’s been very frustrating.
The two situations were entirely different, so again, context is everything.

I believe you ought to be able to voice your opinion on things. You don’t have to be rude or nasty about it. As I always taught my kids, you have a right to disagree, but not to be disagreeable. But just because someone chooses something in their life or is on one side of a topic doesn’t mean you have to automatically go along.

I think it is not only wrong but very wrong. What gives me the right, for example, to shove my opinion onto two gay males and say that watching them have sex would be disgusting to me? What right would I have to say that?

Another few examples: I can’t stand fake breasts, but I would hardly point at yours (if you had them!) and say I really can’t stand fake breasts. Or, I wouldn’t say, ‘Why on earth have you got plastic packets filled with water in your chest”. I also would not say to your husband “How can you get turned on by two bags of silicone?”
What would he say?
He’d probably tell me to bugger off I am sure and mind my own business. Now, you could say that your breasts are a private matter (and please I know you haven’t got fake breasts, or whatever I am just using this as an example).
so, to continue, they could be, or you could wave them around under my nose at the swimming pool, or wear a low cut top and I’d have to put up with that. Would I say anything, probably not? Unless you were a close friend.

However, we could turn the tables and say perhaps you hate my dreadlocks (I don’t have any!!) and I would tell you in no uncertain terms that I love them and mind your own business. Unless you were a family member, a SO you get the picture.

I think that people have strong opinions and that is fair enough, however, it is narcissistic to actually think that their opinion is that important.

In a theoretical sense no, but then how do you excuse the millions of christians who call Islam a fake religion and a terrorist philosophy?

If Christians feel free to disparage religions they don’t know or understand, why don’t I have the same right?

@elbanditoroso The right to not understand? That’s how your question read to me!

You seem to be making the implicit assumption that the others’ choices in religion or lifestyle are morally wrong because you don’t agree with them. At least, that’s the meaning in your statement of the question: “Is it equally wrong…” Since you didn’t set up a condition of “other wrongness” in your statement of equality, then the words of the question mean: “Since I believe these beliefs of theirs to be [morally] wrong, then is it equally [morally] wrong for me to disparage them?”

It’s probably more wrong of you to disparage them. That is, in the sense of what the word “disparage” means.

It’s fine to disagree with people, and to criticize their ideas, their statements of belief and of fact (to the extent that you do that with rationality and some compassion for the people themselves) – feel free to tear the ideas themselves to shreds. That is, in fact, how civilization progresses. It’s not only a fair thing, it’s a necessary thing. So have at it.

However, to disparage is to not engage “equally”. It’s a kind of slighting, deprecation, disrespect, mockery and insult. When you do that, say, to troll someone or to mock, then you’re not engaging in fair debate or argument. And when you do it knowingly, then you invite unfair attacks in return.

Plus, as others have already noted, context is vital. It’s one thing to have a debate – and even to use some elements of patronization, disparagement and outright disrespect – in order to win points at a political rally. But it’s quite another thing to buttonhole someone in his own home, for example, or in front of his friends when he wasn’t prepared for an assault on his ideas – even if they are bad ones – and to disparage his ideas (and indirectly, him) there.

@LornaLove – not at all. I reject the obligation that I have to be ‘holier than thou’.

It depends on the particular conversation, situation, and individuals involved.

One way that someone who has a serious problem, or lack of understanding about illegal imigration, can learn some empathy and understanding about the situation that causes people to imigrate illegally by discussing, and even meeting people who are illegal immigrants.

I get annoyed with some of the voting behavior of “the evangelicals” but because I know very many evangelicals, I know that you cannot generalize everyone in the group (that’s true of all groups) and I know most Christians are good, empathetic, accepting, people. Evangelicals often are accused of being hateful and bigoted when I think it’s not warranted, but rather it is a misunderstanding. If we can’t talk about it, how can the misunderstanding get cleared up? For instance the argument above about LBGTQ, I really don’t think the OP has any malice in her heart.

I don’t think people should call anyone else’s religious beliefs silly, stupid, or ridiculous, I really try to never do that. I do admit to being critical of a particular behavior or belief at times, which can easily be taken as disparaging, but that’s not ever my intent. People are so easily offended, or easily take things as a personal affront. It’s understandable. I find it very curious when the very religious are mean about other people’s religious beliefs. I find tgatvto be unfortunate.

I think the biggest problem is making assumptions. I’ve had people say negative things to me about Mexicans. They have no idea I’m married to a Mexican. Or, say something disparaging regarding Jewish people, not realizing I’m Jewish. Or, something offensive about atheists, not knowing I’m an atheist. That’s so very different than asking me a question about being Jewish, even if the question comes from a place of stereotyping. Asking the question implies to me a willingness to learn. I think that’s ok.

Sure it is. But some people just like ot argue, and I’m up for that.

@Elbandit Seems like you’re generalizing. I’m a christian by choice but love to learn about other cultures and religions. I have a Quran and have read some of it, many of the same names as my bible actually. So maybe cut me some slack in the religion issue, I’m actually a very atypical christian in my area.

@Cwotus Good catch, couldn’t edit when I noticed. My question is more about a discussion on important topics people have strong feelings about. By no means am I saying anything is morally wrong in my examples, they just interest me because I’m very defensive of my friends in a conservative area.

@Jleslie So you see my point. Sometimes we infer things or hear things we may find offensive, is that time to talk further or shut up? If I feel that an unlimited amount of illegals are not good for security and economics, that in no way means I disparage any individual by any means btw. I hope you don’t feel that anyone here is speaking on your family personally, that wouldnt be okay.

Of course, it depends entirely on the subject, and how confrontational one chooses to be. Without attempting to start an argument, one might state his/her POV on a subject to try to enlighten the other person to the possibility that there is/are different possibilities that that other person might want to be aware of, if they aren’t already, for their benefit.
Some topics you mention don’t require any such “which/who is wronger” discussion, and/or are not important enough, and/or don’t/shouldn’t concern one at all. (Again, depending on how confrontational any particular person involved in the discussion wishes to be.)
To state/label any possible opinion on whatever subject some specific person might have an interest in as being “wrong” presets the stage for an argument and, therefore, being “wrong” before, during , and/or after any debate should not be presumed.

You defend your position best by living it rather than by disparaging the alternatives and antagonising people.

@KNOWITALL and I have chatted a few times a while back so I know she is supportive of the LGBT community.

The most commonly used retort a person gets when defending the LGBT community is “I don’t have to agree with your/their lifestyle choice.” This is usually based from a religious view one has. They assume it is a choice to be LGBT.

No one chooses to be gay or transgender. It is how they are born. They choose when they come out or when they want to transition because they are tired of hiding, but they were always gay or transgender.

“you included something that is not a choice (and therefore not relevant to your question)”
^This is why I answered how I did. I made a correction. I’m not upset and I had no intention to derail this thread.

^ @KNOWITALL and I discussed via pm and I apologized for derailing her thread. I think I misunderstood.

@KNOWITALL It’s complicated. Sometimes it’s difficukt to know whether to keep talking or just clam up. If the topic is very emotional for the person who feels offended there might be no reasoning with them. Meaning, you might never be able to convince them your not trying to be offensive.

Here’s the thing, the person who is offended, we need to really listen to them. If we can use language that isn’t offensive, then maybe a conversation can take place. I personally don’t like that people get so upset about semantics, but I support being corrected to be considerate, and language does matter in understanding too.

The best conversations about difficult topics are between people who trust the other person is not hateful. If we know that about each other, we then should not be easily offended, because we trust their intentions.

I understand the point above about LGBTQ not liking the word “choice,” but I also argue that what if it is a choice for some people? We shouldn’t care. People get to choose their life without interference from others, unless they are harming others. Pursuit of happiness and freedom. It was blamed above that the religious call it a choice, and it seems to me there has been a lot of effort to scientifically show it’s not a choice, but I think we would have been better off just saying shut the hell up to people who have a problem with people who are gay or trans and tell them it’s none of their business to judge others and treat them like they are some sort of subclass in our society. We have civil rights in this country, and each person gets to love who they want period, and identify as they want. I do think for the most part it is genetics, or from birth, but I also think in some cases there are environmental factors too, So what? Either way the person is who he or she is, no matter what the cause or reason.

You didn’t offend me at all with the comments about immigrants. Don’t think twice about it. I think we need to control our borders also, but I also think we need to be honest about the illegal immigrant labor we currently employ in our nation and give many of them papers. Most people don’t realize how many people they know who are here illegally or worked here illegally. How many Americans do you know, born here, family here for generations, who work under the table sometimes? It’s not really different.

There are plenty of things in life you will encounter that will go against your own beliefs. An example would be, abortions. I don’t believe in abortions but I won’t preach it to someone who has had an abortion. It isn’t my life and my body. So I shut up. It isn’t being cowardice, it’s more about it isn’t my business.

I also hate rapist. So let’s say some parent loves their rapist son. It doesn’t give me license to confront them. What good is it to confront them? The only possible reason would be to annoy them or get them to hate their kid. Unless I was the victim or related to the victim, it isn’t and shouldn’t be my business. There is nothing to gain.

Having a belief in something doesn’t mean a person has to antagonize someone with a different view. I don’t mind discussion about certain touchy topics so long as the actual motive is inquiry and growth and not condemnation.
Even when asked about an opinion on something touchy, I try to tread lightly. But if I feel the question was done out of maliciousness, I will have one of two reactions. Either back out of it, or stomp all over the person with steel toe boots (figuratively).

This is a loaded question. Disparage implies belittling. This is flat out rude and should be avoided. If you have a well reasoned disagreement with someone then it is appropriate to express it. If you have reason to believe that expressing your opinion will cause a great deal of antagonism then it is best to avoid discussing the issue.

I think many of you misunderstood my question, which may be my fault.

I wanted to see how many of you would walk the walk, not just talk the talk online-in regards to serious issues that confront society today.

@KNOWITALL Were you really asking if people who bash Christians or Republicans or gays on Fluther would do so in real life?

I admit to being guilty of such behavior sometimes, mainly when I am feeling onery and cantankerous but in general, no, I do not believe it serves much purpose.

There does have to be some discussion on awkward topics however when it veers into the realm of politics and crafting laws that might or might not limit someones freedom.

@janbb No, I think I already know the answer to that one…lol (Yes)
You should know by now, I’d just ask if that’s what I meant, I don’t beat around the bush too much, I think I was just tired when I posted this.

I know on fluther we discuss many things, that some may not discuss in RL, but I do, so I was just curious if anyone else picked other people’s brains in their ‘realm’.

“I wanted to see how many of you would walk the walk, not just talk the talk online-in regards to serious issues that confront society today.”

Yes. I’ve cut out all Trump supporters out of my life. And I’ve made my point feelings about it quite clear. Trump is an immoral person through and through and I believe anyone who supports him or is willing to look the other way must lack morals as well or likes living with their head buried in the sand.. I know I am not perfect but I would never exalt anyone who purposely aims to hurt others with no regard for others because they are not deemed worthy.

@Pandora So you’re an Independent? lol

I generally think it’s silly to the point of lunacy to “exalt” anyone – at all – in American politics.

@CWOTUS I agree

I can’t imagine cutting out family or friends because of political differences. I asked my husband before we got married some political questions to make sure I was marrying someone who was fairly in line with me, but friends and family members? It seems rather extreme.

^Not to me. Cancer is cancer…

Have to agree with @MrG on this one. Sometimes people are just toxic. I don’t speak to my two brothers in law anymore after a few warnings. And I love them very much. Bad humans.

One of my dearest friends is a Trump supporter. He’s had lots of head trauma though, so I don’t blame him…

I have a few friends who support Trump. They just know better than to express those feelings among those of us who actually have morals. We still drink together.

@KNOWITALL It sounds like your BIL are bad in general, not just differing with you politically. I have friends who support Trump, and I know them to be good people.

@JLeslie Yes, I offered them many chances to stop being turds but they continued to the point I want nothing to do with them. It’s my husbands family so I’m socially polite, but I no longer call them my brothers, take their calls/ texts or have them as friends on social media or to hang out.

It was ‘I’m in a tough spot and if you don’t let me move in than screw you both”, and I don’t play that game. We offered, he gave us date, came two months early and had no job….nope, he has family and friends all over this area, but we both had things going on.

@KNOWITALL is my favorite Christian! So glad she’s back.

@Dutchess_III Hey, me too! haha, although my mom is up there. We had a lot of issues during life’s changes, but she never ever raised me to be a hater, even with my bio-dad. Love ya gal!

LOL! I wound up on a thread with Winston (EC’s) brother who is, I guess terribly religious. (He is NOTHING like EC.) There was another guy there named John, and Stephen Hawking’s death came up.

EC’s bro said, “God bless you Steven Hawkings.”

The other guy responded with “He didn’t believe in god… maybe why god allowed him to keep his mind sharp and stuck him in that chair for most of his life… just so he can think about it…. Things that make you say, hmmm.”

I said, “That would be a petty, shitty thing for your kind and merciful God to do John, don’t ya think?”

He said, ” He can be vengeful also. Nahum 1.2;
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.”

I said, “It appears that your God is an asshole.” .... And he laughed! “Ha ha ha! Amen.”

Then EC’s bro came on and said, “maybe your God is”

I said, “I don’t have a god.”

@Dutchess What a weird conversation! Actually many people who don’t believe use specific cruel situations as a reason. Like baby rape-how could a God exist and allow that to happen. It doesn’t work that way imo, but I do see their pov.

^^Yes, that is how we think of it. That’s probably part of the reason so many Jewish people don’t believe. I like to think God would be a living and forgiving God, especially if He expects it of us. If we are His children, how can He let that happen to innocent people. I rarely talk about logic or proof when it comes to religion, because sometimes we don’t understand, and sometimes something is true, but we just haven’t proven it yet, but that a God who supposedly can control everything and everything and do miracles let’s such awful things happen, and “tests” us? I just hate that idea.

As parents we let our children make mistakes, but we don’t let two year olds lean out of a ten story window, and we don’t let them stand on train track as a train comes barreling at them. God, our supposed parent, does allow all sorts of things like that happen.

Plus, He does His lessons in “mysterious” ways. Why the mystery? As adults we are wiser, and it’s not a mystery. We teach and protect our kids. Kids know adults have more experience and more power and provide safety and love. Sometimes that doesn’t happen, because not all parents are good people. See how that works. The parents who don’t do those things aren’t good parents. So, if you continue with the analogy, a God who would punish the world for eating an apple, or who allows a few powerful men to distroy millions of people; it just isn’t sounding like a great parent to me. It’s just too awful.

If there is a God, a judging God, then I believe He is a good and forgiving God in the end, and would understand why I’m an atheist, and see that throughout my life I still acted as He would want. Loving, charitable, caring about and for those I am responsible to, and even to those who are strangers. I don’t curse God, or tell others they shouldn’t believe or worship God, I just don’t “get it” if He does exist. I hope God is a big enough entity, meaning not too ego filled, that he sees my point of view.

The great thing about believing in God is that it covers whatever happens. This is the best of all possible worlds, and whatever happens is the best possible outcome. For God to have kept the child from being raped, it would have triggered a worse set of events. How do you test for this? You can’t. If you could, it would be science and not religion. If people are comforted by thinking that things are the best that they can be, it is fine with me, as long as they don’t try to push their cherry picked biblical views onto others.

@JLeslie I don’t understand it all either, maybe because of my belief I can trust there’s a greater plan. It’s not easy but in my analogy, the rapist is the criminal, so perhaps we have to learn evil to recognize there’s another path we can take. Yin yang.

Perhaps God likes to watch children getting raped…

Perhaps “God” likes seeing people in general being tortured… Why should babies and children get all of “His” attention and your consideration???

I have a friend who is Jewish. His grandfather went through WWII. His Grandfather wondered how God could let something like that happen to his chosen people ?? Then the only answer for him is that there is no God.

And yes. Things you mentioned @KNOWITALL raping of women, children babies, torture of children…there is just no way there could be a God like the one we were taught about, omnipotent, all powerful, there is just no way he could sit by and just watch and let it happen when he could stop it.

Now everyone, I’m certainly not saying God doesn’t exist, or that he’s cruel.

Who perpetuates the crimes? Humans making choices to do harm.

If he knows about it, but doesn’t do anything that seems kinda cruel to me. But anyway, change of subject.
I unfriended EC’s brother. He shared that meme about it was the student’s fault, they should have been nicer to them, blah blah. He shared it without comment.
I commented, “That’s it, I’m out.”

@KNOWITALL Yes, humans do chose to do harm. But why would “God” allow the innocent to suffer because of it? ESPECIALLY children?

If you believe in miracles then you have to explain why they do not occur in cases where it seems they are needed. The usual answer is that God works in mysterious ways beyond our understanding. To me it is all just a word game offering no insight.

I never claimed to be anything more than a believer folks, and after years in various churches, I chose to believe in God. I can tell you of many experiences, good and bad, that showed me that God is an active participant in my life. For one, the man I married, which I didn’t understand, but I did it. When my mom almost died, God pushed me relentlessly to go check on her, even while she told me on the phone she just had a cold. She would have died that night without medical attn, fact.
I can’t explain why some people get saved from harm, I can’t explain why he allowed me to have a crappy childhood, or even some things happening now. I can tell you I believe there’s reasons and I have changed through my life and God has a lot to do with it.
Maybe my childhood or getting hit by the same woman he had me go save from death is intended to help me learn forgiveness and mercy. All I know is that even as a christian, I have troubles still, that I try to release to God to handle. We’ll see how it shakes out I guess, but theres zero doubt in my mind that there’s a plan.

I wish I could be judged the way that God is. If I do something right, it is because of my inherent goodness. If I do something that appears wrong, it is because you don’t understand the full implications. Can’t lose. How sweet!

Instead the best you can hope for, is the traditional christian witch test.
You get thrown into the river with a heavy rock around your feet.
If you drown, you were innocent. If you float, you are a witch and get burnt at the stake.

But ya’ll don’t believe, so why even worry about it?! If you chose to do so, perhaps you’d feel the same assurance believers do. I’m not worried in the slightest, in this regard.

@KNOWITALL I agree. I don’t believe but don’t have an issue with anyone who does.

I don’t worry about it. I used to, before I gave up on religion.

@kritiper Well when everyone gives up on you and vice versa, God’s still waiting.

@KNOWITALL Still not worried.
Even if there were this “God,” it would be no sin to not believe…
And if he/she were this “awesome God,” he/she would understand my POV, so, again, no need for me to worry…

@Kritiper Wrong. Making the choice not to believe is a choice actually.
I don’t think that’s how God works. You have to ask Him into you heart as your Savior. But if you’re right, see ya up there.

@KNOWITALL You do realize that “you have to ask Him into your heart as you Saviour” is only a Christian construct. Not true of many religions even if they posit a belief in God or gods.

Sure, but I had to mention because it’s not automatic salvation because the christian God ‘understands’. Certainly the bible says if we deny Him, He denies you.

^^ I understand now. Thanks.

@KNOWITALL Geez, save it for church! Or someone who cares…
(And your thoughts about the Bible are flawed since it was men who wrote and translated it.)

@kritiper Geesh, if you don’t care, don’t post incorrect info. I’m not into church either, just a God loving christian trying to show some love, not force anyyone to the path against their will.
Yes the bible was written by men, derrr…condescend much?

I feel like all this should be on another thread…

It’s my question and relevent, just where it went, which is why I post in social. All is well!

^Yes ma’am.

You guys…I can’t give you GA because it throws back to very top of the thread and I lose my place. Pretty much all of you should have one more GA.