Social Question

Dutchess_III's avatar

How do you feel when someone doesn't accept your apology?

Asked by Dutchess_III (47069points) March 14th, 2018

I babysit my 2 year old grandson at my son and his wife’s house. They came home after school with 4 year old Zoey. My DIL was giving the kids snacks. Zoey asked for a saltine cracker, and Mom gave her one.
Then she asked if she could spray some Ready Whip on the cracker and mom responded ”NO you can’t spray Ready Whip on the cracker!!”
I was really taken aback at that, and at her tone. I stuck my head around the corner and said, “Why not?”
“Because it’s gross!!” she said.
I said, “Well, it’s just an experiment….” and I trailed off. I’m a firm believer in telling kids “yes,” when ever it’s possible.
I got home and got to thinking about it, and I sent her a text that read, “I’m sorry about the cracker Ready Whip thing. I was so surprised that I just blurted it out. I shouldn’t have done that with Zoey there. I’m sorry.”

She sent back, “It’s whatever.” :(

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96 Answers

thisismyusername's avatar

“It’s whatever.” seems an appropriate response.

When I offer an apology, I don’t expect a particular response. The apology doesn’t even require a response. Sometimes an apology isn’t necessarily processed for years.

Anyway, it’s not her duty to make you feel better by responding in a way that relieves you from your guilt. If you are truly sorry, apologize and do not expect any response.

kritiper's avatar

Then it’s now their problem, not mine.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

It’s nice to let people know they got it cause if they don’t you’re left wondering.

“It’s whatever” is a snarky response designed to dismiss someone and it’s rude, especially coming from a grown woman. It’s how teenaged mean girls act.

And I’m sorry I left you with the impression that I’m guilt ridden or something. I’m not. I just made a small mistake. My bad.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess Yes it bothers me.
Why cant the child see what it tastes like, kids like weird stuff. Not like it was a big deal. What kind of snack is a plain saltine? Lol

I wouldnt worry, she probably realizes she was being kind of a jerk.

thisismyusername's avatar

@Dutchess_lll: "It’s whatever" is a snarky response designed to dismiss someone and it’s rude, especially coming from a grown woman. It’s how teenaged mean girls act.

And I’m sorry I left you with the impression that I’m guilt ridden or something. I’m not. I just made a small mistake. My bad.”

You were way out of line, and the woman didn’t tell you to fuck off. She’s probably used to this from you. And when you “apologize” in the way you describe, you’re not really apologizing – you’re requesting a particular response from her. You want her to say, “it’s fine. all’s good” or something. That’s not an apology.

Don’t question someone’s parenting unless they are abusing their kid. Period. If someone did that to me, I wouldn’t handle it as kindly as your daughter-in-law.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I wasn’t ”Way out of line.” I was surprised and curious. Now if I’d gone on and on about why the kid should be allowed to tryi it, that she was stifling them or whatever then I’d be way out of line.
It was a small mistake. Everyone makes them.

thisismyusername's avatar

@Dutchess_lll: “It was a small mistake. Everyone makes them.”

It was your mistake. Learn your lesson and don’t make another mistake by holding her responsible.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@Knowitall that’s kind of what I’m thinking. She thought about it…

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not sure you even owed her an apology, but I wasn’t there, so I’m assuming you didn’t like the tone you said it in.

Maybe her “whatever” is a “don’t worry about it at all.” Whatever can sound very dismissive, and indifferent, but it can also mean it’s not a big deal.

I think she should have told you everything is fine, and reassure you she isn’t upset or angry, but unfortunately she didn’t. Even better I think she should have said, “I thought about it, and you were right, I should have let her ecpirenent.” But, I say that, because I think you were right in the first place.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I’m not holding her responsible! Lord why do you people do this here? You jump to concludions and make mountians out of mole hills! It was a mistake. I apologized. She didn’t accept iit gracefully and that’s too bad. It is what it is.

And please read the question again and answer accordingly.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Thanks JL. My response above was meant for Username.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

The other thing was she had “What a STUPID idea” in the tone of her voice when she spoke to the child.
My tone was one of simple curiosity but she may have read something else into it. Pretty sure she was raised by a mom who told her she was stupid a lot.

thisismyusername's avatar

@Dutchess_lll – If anyone questions my parenting – especially in front of my kids (when they were young) – a big “fuck off” is what they’d get. If they then felt entitled to some “gracious” response to an apology, then they could really fuck off.

Note: This is just my opinion. I suspect you wanted to just rant about this. Sorry I didn’t respond appropriately. Also, my position on apologies stands. Apologies with an expected response is not an apology.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Wow. You’d tell someone to fuck off in front of your kids? What kind of message would that send to them? And I launch into a stream of critical words and jumping to conclusions…in other words you don’t need to answer that question. I was just making a point.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I didn’t want to rant. You started ranting. Again, I.ask you to read the question and answer accordingly.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ThisIs Cussing in front of children is way worse than a gma defending the kids right to have a goofy food. Chillax.

thisismyusername's avatar

^ People seem to feel the need to give parenting advice. This thread is turning in on itself, and I need to bail. Have fun.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Lol! I don’t know abou All but I was making a point anout the Fluther mentality , NOT giving you actual advice!

thisismyusername's avatar

@Dutchess_III: “Wow. You’d tell someone to fuck off in front of your kids? What kind of message would that send to them?”

Honestly, I don’t know why I jumped into this thread, because it involved parenting, and I swore I’d avoid these questions. I was stupid to jump in.

But fuck yeah – I have always spoken clearly and uncensored in front of my kids. It’s something I feel really fucking strong about as a parent.

Just a suggestion.. again… try to raise your kids the way you want to. And leave others to raise their kids the way they have chosen.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ThisIs We get the point, don’t tell you how bad a parent you are. Not easy, but okay.

jonsblond's avatar

“How do you feel when someone doesn’t accept your apology?”

If someone doesn’t accept my apology and it’s someone I care about, I must have really fucked up. That makes me feel stupid for being so stupid. I do my best to not make the same mistake and hopefully they will forgive me in time.

If it’s someone I don’t care about? Meh. Not my problem anymore.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

That’s about how I feel Athwine. With my DIL it sometimes feels like she’s going to take huge offense at every little thing I so. It’s like there is no telling what she’s gonna take personally.

SergeantQueen's avatar

I don’t feel you owed her an apology either, based on the info here. She probably means that she doesn’t care, that you are good.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I hope so. You have to walk on eggshells around her. We’ll find out tomorrow.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I do respect their methods even when I don’t agree with them @thisismyusername. If Zoey were to ask me if she could have a cracker with Whipped Cream I’d tell her no, now that I know.how my DIL.feels about it.

Mom doesn’t want them using sippy cups (which = a lot of spills to me) so I don’t give them drinks in sippy cups (and I spend a lot of time mopping up the floor around the table of spills that happened on my watch, which leads to cleaning up old spills that she didn’t bother to clean up.)

SergeantQueen's avatar

Just because I was curious, I googled saltine cracker with whipped cream… There are multiple deserts that include saltine crackers and whipped cream. Like a pudding and a no-bake cracker cake. Maybe her mother made that and that’s where it came from. It’s not a weird combo.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

It’s not even that Sarge. Mom has NO imagination, NO flights of fancy. It took her 3 years before she was able to pick up on when my son, my.husband, and I were making jokes at each other’s expence. She couldn’t understand why we were laughing at, what appeared to her, to be insults. I remember the first time she got it. It was a joke I made that “insulted” myself! She heard it…tweaked it and said “Wait…What?” We just fell about the place!

flutherother's avatar

You’ve apologised and that’s fine but I wouldn’t do it again. You don’t get between a tiger and its cubs. When you have your grandchildren to yourself it can be a different story.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Meh if you help her out andas a grandparent, you have rights to intervene. Maybe just pick your battles if she’s as you describe. My gma was my besty and interfered a lot, and I adored her for it. Maybe it’s a midwest thing, but grands arent like everyone else, and should be part of the parenting imo.

JLeslie's avatar

It sounds like she owes the child an apology.

That might explain why she didn’t except your apology gracefully. I find that people who never (or rarely) apologize, suck at excepting apologies. They seem to view your apology as an admission that you were wrong, and they were right. Then they feel more justified I guess. She wasn’t right. It’s more complicated than that. I hope that makes sense how I explained it.

To answer how I would feel if I were you. I think I would feel like I never want to apologize to her again.

ucme's avatar

Think the last time I apologised for anything was June 21st 1997 around tea time & only then coz i stumbled across our saucy maid from below stairs in the shower.
Twas a pure accident I swear…

canidmajor's avatar

Without the details and the ensuing discussion, just answering the bold red Q, I feel that they are not required to accept my apology, but then I don’t tender an apology unless I actually recognize that I have done something wrong and I feel some remorse. I appreciate if they accept it, but I understand that they might not, and I don’t fault them. I might feel a little sad.

With the details and the discussion, I get the impression that it was not an actual apology with an understanding of wrongdoing and an acknowledgement of real remorse, but an attempt to convince the other party that somehow they were in the wrong, and continuing to be, with their response to a false apology.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@canidmajor I provided every single detail, and there was no ensuing discussion. I was preparing to leave. After I said, “Well, it was just an experiment….” then I gave everyone a hug and left. The whole exchange took longer to type out than it did to happen.

Now I’m thinking apologizing was the wrong thing to do. Looking through my FB she posted a vague, random post this morning, about an hour ago. It read: “When did I ever ask for your advice? Oh that right I didn’t, so keep your mouth shut!! Don’t bother giving your opinion if a person didn’t ask, I don’t need your two cent on my life, or my kids life. If your not my husband or a doctor your opinion don’t mean anything to me!!”
(The truth is she asks me for advice quite often.)

I’m just think that my apologizing just made things worse. Maybe she wasn’t really upset over it, until I apologized then she thought, “Hey! There is something to be upset about here!” IDK.

thisismyusername's avatar

@Dutchess_III – Do you see now? This is a universal problem that most (or all) parents have with their parents-in-law. I don’t know a single couple who hasn’t had this become a large strain in their relationship – mine included. Therapists talk about this all the time, and have plenty of experience with it.

Do a google search on “mother in law parenting” and you’ll find a ton of articles about it.

It isn’t a judgment on you as a loving grandmother. It’s just that you aren’t the parent. Just remember that. Respect your son and daughter-in-law and allow them to determine how to parent their children.

Of course you can help. But you’re helping your son and daughter-in-law. It’s not just fun time for you and the grandkids. Their rules. If they ask for advice, feel free to give it. But be humble about it. Parenting isn’t a science – it’s an art. And one that none of us have mastered.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@thisismyusername My Mom used to actively undermine me. For example, I had a rule “No electronic games in the house.”
So she went out and found one at a garage sale and presented it to my kids. When I protested she told me, in front of my children, that it was “just a game” and that my rule was stupid. Now THAT is way out of line. All I did was ask her a question. That’s all. My DIL has some pretty serious mental issues that she takes meds for. She tends to do what one of my sisters does and that’s making mountains out of mole hills. Screaming and ranting and raving over nothing.

I thought you left already @thisismyusername.

canidmajor's avatar

@Dutchess_III By “ensuing discussion” I meant the discussion on the thread.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Well I came in and just talked to her like nothing had happened. She was a little tense at first but then she relaxed. I guess we’re good. Hope she keeps in mind that I can quit and she can pay for a babysitter and a house cleaner.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_lll That was pretty much my point. If you’re helping them out as much as I think you are, she should chill out. It was a cracker situation, not rocket science….geesh. Her post means she’s passive aggressive, a hard personality type to deal with in general…yuck.

janbb's avatar

@Dutchess_lll If you’re closely involved and are very different in styles, you’re going to keep butting heads. Your decision is whether you want to keep helping out but keep remembering to keep your mouth shut unless asked, or to be more distant. Trying to justify that you were right in every situation will get really old really fast with those who know you.

Being a MIL is one of the hardest roles in the world as I am continually learning.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I know jan. Trust me. I have to bite my tongue LOT. Like shr won’t let.him have pop because she’s fallen for the sugar high myth, but she lets him have all kinds of other things full of sugar AND she lets him drink caffeinated tea.

Dutchess_III's avatar

She has turned this into WWIII. All of this over a cracker and a sun flower seed. Jesus.

SergeantQueen's avatar

Wait, what happened now??

KNOWITALL's avatar

Ya now what? Geesh what a dumb fight. If she goes too far just take a break.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I am @KNOWITALL. I’m quitting. We’re on spring break next week, so I’ll let them know tomorrow or Monday so they can find a replacement with a college degree in education, experience with teaching in preschools, a former home day care provider, someone who loves their kid as much as they do, AND who does windows, all for free, to replace me.

@SergeantQueen, Cooper was standing in front of me saying something, that for the life of me I couldn’t understand. Finally I said, “Can you show me?” He nodded and turned away, and as he turned away he opened his mouth, stuck his finger in, then took it out.
I said, “You want food?”
He nodded his head.
I said, “Yes? Food?” hoping he’d repeat after me, but he didn’t.
So he led me to the kitchen and was pointing at the cupboards up high, so I started pulling foods out. We had a whole conversation.
“Do you want pretzels?”
“Noway!”
And so on until I came to a big sack of sunflower seeds, in the shell. THAT was the ticket!
I said, “You don’t eat sunflower seeds!” (in the shell.)
Clear as a bell he said, “Ess I due!”
So I texted Mom and Dad. They both said, “No,” duh!
Well, he needed to be rewarded for successfully communicating with me so I cracked about 4 and gave him the meat. He really liked it.
My son said, “Cool.” But all hell broke loose with my DIL. I spent the whole fucking morning yesterday listening to her rant and rail via text.

What it came down to was she doesn’t want me to give him naps, and she doesn’t want me to discipline him,which consists of 2 minute time outs, to which he has been responding beautifully. He’s a whole different kid with me. Calm, happy. With my DIL he’s a raging, screaming brat. The other day she got ejected from a doctor’s waiting room due to his behavior. They put them into a separate room.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Good call, let them find and pay someone to fit their standards. It stinks, sorry, I wouldnt trade time with my grands for anything. The children are the only ones losing.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Here is the note I’m going to send to them tomorrow:

Dear Kids,

I have thought very long and very, very hard on this and I have come to the conclusion that the micro-managing is not acceptable. Consider this my quit notice. I wish you luck in finding someone with a college degree in education, experience in preschool class rooms, education in early childhood development, who owned and operated their own day care for 4 years, who loves your children as much as I do, AND who does windows, willing to come to your house, and all for free. I wish you luck.

If they panic and ask me to come back I will put my foot down on giving Cooper the opportunity to take a nap, and time outs. I will also stop posting daily Cooper Reports on Facebook. I did it for them, so they could have an idea of what went on during the day. But no more. Secrecy is the name of the game now.

Love,
Mom.

chyna's avatar

Totally none of my business, but I wouldn’t send that note. To keep the peace and to be able to see your grandson, I think I would just say that due to circumstances, I will no longer be able to babysit on a daily basis, but would be there for them if they needed me on a once in a while basis. I’m afraid if you send that note DIL will say “who the hell does she think she is?”

KNOWITALL's avatar

Ya agree with Chyna. I think you’ll regret stooping to her level. Just say your relationships with all of them seem to be taking a beating and a break is needed to regain perspective. Something nice and kind, so you come off as a loving gma, which is all you’re saying.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, that’s exactly who I am. I don’t just “think” it, and she’s a fool for jeopardizing it.

But let me think on that @chyna. I would like to insert “micromanaging” in there somewhere.

canidmajor's avatar

Remember, @Dutchess_III, that you have no real power here. As much as you detest your DIL, she can keep you from spending any time with your grandchildren.
Is it worth that to prove that you’re “right”?

I have seen things go very badly in these kinds of circumstances.

@chyna is right, her advice is excellent. Adding in any kind of criticism can only escalate things, and not in your favor.

Dutchess_III's avatar

This isn’t about right and wrong @canidmajor. I can NOT babysit a kid without discipline and schedules. They want me to do it their way, but their way has created a horrible brat and I am not going to watch a horrible brat. If you read the posts you’ll see where Jenna was actually removed from the waiting room at a doctor’s office and put in a private room, his behavior was THAT bad. I refuse to do.
I’ve been watching him for 4 weeks. It took 2 weeks, but we got the rules and expectations figured out and he is a dream with me. Just like his dad. We’ve gone from literally 15 time outs a day down to 0 – 1, maybe 2. He is a different child with me. The instant Mom walks in the door, though, he starts with the screaming. She screams at him, he screams at her, she slaps at him, he slaps at her…not gonna do it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

How about “Guys, I can’t watch Cooper every day any more.” And that’s all. ?

SergeantQueen's avatar

I actually like the note. Do it.

flutherother's avatar

I’m not sure about the note. I think the adults should take a time out, calm down and then discuss it face to face. You both have a lot to lose.

canidmajor's avatar

You miss the point. Again.

chyna's avatar

@dutchess The last note is the best. A time out is exactly what all of you need.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Or add that I told them this early so they could find someone else.

chyna's avatar

Yes that would be good.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

This really hurts my heart.

KNOWITALL's avatar

If you’re hurt why not wait awhile sweetie? Calm down, maybe talk to your son alone. When I had an issue with Kents mom, he handles it. It’s a respect thing, and no one, not even spouses, should come between family. I am blown away its escalated over a dang cracker! Wow…

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Don’t forget the sunflower seed.
I have talked to my son and we’re good. He’s on my side but has to maintain the idea he has her back. That’s why I’m sending it to both of them. Later I’ll he and I will get together and I’ll let him know what it takes to keep me. Jesus. They brought me in to make decisions about Cooper in their absense! If she thinks I’m not capable of that I shouldn’t be there. I need some ROOM.
Making the decision caused a calmness to settle in me. I know it’s the right decision. She was abusive to me KNOWITALL.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Oh wow, do what you have to then. Gotta be civil to your MIL if you love your husband.

Dutchess_III's avatar

How about this:

I’ve thought very long, and very hard about this and I have come to the conclusion that I can’t watch Cooper under the restrictions you have set down. We are, of course, available for occasional babysitting if you want to go out, like we always have been, but I can’t do it 5 days a week.
I came to the decision yesterday, but have set on it for 24 hours to make sure it’s the right one, and I believe it is.
Fortunately it’s Spring Break so you have an entire week to find a replacement or to figure out what to do.

Love you guys,
Mom.

KNOWITALL's avatar

My mom just got the whole story, we think you should stay cause Coop needs you. And you and DIL need to agree on boundaries. The slapping and screaming is worrisome to us since he’s a baby. Just our two cents.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh, I feel the same way. But Jenna is insisting on no naps and no discipline. I’ll be of absolutely no use to Cooper if I initiate that. He’ll just be the screaming brat he is with his Mom, so I’m putting my foot down….I’m fairly certain that faced with losing me they’ll be forced to lighten up on me.
When I have Cooper I see his Dad. Easy going, happy, clever….it’s like going back in time. In fact, Zoey is about 2 years older than him, and the other day I called her “Corrie!” That’s my daugter’s name and she’s about 2 years older than my son.

So, what do you think of the note?

canidmajor's avatar

I think mentioning the restrictions adds a confrontative tone to it that could very likely make your relationship with your DIL even worse. Since you have been doing this as a favor, there is no explanation required. If they ask why, you could mention that you are wanting to do some other things. (Which is true, you are wanting to not be in conflict with your son’s family!)

Good luck with this, family arguments are the worst.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Especially when they flair up over absolutely nothing.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’ll take the restriction out, but talk to my son in private, later and tell him what the bare minimum is for me.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Guys~

I’ve thought very long and very hard about this and I have come to the conclusion that I can’t watch Cooper any longer, as though it were a job. We are, of course, available for occasional babysitting if you want to go out, like we always have been.
I came to the decision yesterday, but have set on it for 24 hours to make sure it’s the right one, and I believe it is.
Fortunately it’s Spring Break so you have an entire week to find a replacement so I wanted to let you know as soon as possible.

Love you guys,
Mom.

janbb's avatar

That’s good. Send it. They may still be unhappy with you but it sounds very reasonable.

canidmajor's avatar

There ya go.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It’s sent. ;(
If I know Jenna she’ll say, “She just wants money!!”

chyna's avatar

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I will. Jenna just typed back, “k.”

I’ve been doing kid for 30 years and I’m good at what I do. My methods are tried and true and they work. I need to be able to keep my own tools, and I refuse to borrow tools that don’t work from someone else.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thanks for the help, and you guys were spot on. I had to remove the anger from the post, so I did.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I still have this nagging feeling that it was my apology that sent her over the edge. I think it made her think of it in a way she may not have, and I think she thought it made me vulnerable and she had the upper hand.

canidmajor's avatar

Your son will be much happier when you stop battling for dominance with his wife.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess Just ‘k’ is her being a brat. Good for you. Sounds like your son needs a Come to Jesus with his wife so here’s his perfect chance.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I am trying @canidmajor. I back out of disagreements as fast as I can.

@KNOWITALL she has mental issues. He can’t fix that by arguing. No amount of logic ever gets through to her. She views everything through the lens of her own paranoia. I hate walking on egg shells. I was raised by a woman I had to walk on egg shells with and it’s a fucking bitch and I just want to cry.

Dutchess_III's avatar

My son came by on Tuesday to do some minor caulking work for me. I asked if they’d found a replacement. She said she was just going to start taking him to work with her (she works in a day care.) I knew if she did she’d have to pay half price, so I asked what it was going to cost and he said $6 a day.
I just nodded my head and that’s all I had to say about that.
However, the first time she brought it up, the first day I went to work for them, she said she didn’t want to take him with her. She said, “The other kids are fine, but MY son…..” and she trailed off. She was indicating she was afraid he’d trash the place.

canidmajor's avatar

I’m glad they’re coming up with some sort of solution and that you get a break. :-)

KNOWITALL's avatar

Wow, if I had known she was a daycare worker, that would have been my solution anyway….a little odd. haha

Dutchess_III's avatar

They need every penny they can get @KNOWITALL. Plus she was afraid of what his behavior might be. So, in the end, maybe this is a good thing. She’ll be forced to react calmly, which is not her go-to reaction.

I didn’t want a break @canidmajor. :( Cooper was gaining ground by leaps and bounds both in his behavior and his speech. But Mom is trying to convince me he has developmental delays. I call bullshit. She said the same thing about their daughter, who is 4 now, and stellar in her preschool.
Her oldest, by a previous marriage, DOES have delays. He’s 10 and very socially awkward.

janbb's avatar

I think some distance will be good for both of you for now.

Someone just sent me this article which is very helpful for understanding the dynamics between a paternal grandmother and her DIL.:

canidmajor's avatar

Well, I meant a break from tension between you and your DIL.

canidmajor's avatar

Wow, @janbb, very excellent article. Thank you for posting it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yeah @canidmajor. It usually takes about a month to recover from these wars she starts over nothing, so that means a month of not seeing the grandkids as punishment.

@janbb it jumped up and demanded that I subscribe. Could you copy and paste for me?

janbb's avatar

See if this link works better. Otherwise, I’ll copy and paste it but it’s long.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/well/family/the-maternal-grandparent-advantage.html

Dutchess_III's avatar

No luck….It’s OK if it’s long.

janbb's avatar

@Dutchess_III Summing it up it says that the DIL is almost always more comfortable with her mother as a grandparent than with her husband’s mother and that the MIL often has to walk on eggshells.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No shit. But I’m pretty sure my son would absolutely refuse to bring Jenna’s mother in to baby sit. She’s abusive.

KNOWITALL's avatar

When I arrive at my daughter and son-in-law’s Brooklyn apartment on Thursdays, my 18-month-old granddaughter hurtles toward me with her still lurch-y gait, happy for our weekly date.

While her parents work, we spend the day doing toddler stuff — reading favorite books six times in a row, singing about spiders and stars, placing objects into containers and dumping them out again, going to the park, napping (baby, not Bubbe, alas). If we’re lucky, I spend half an hour with the whole family, once my daughter gets home, then head back to my place in New Jersey.

The routine I call “Bubbe Day” (for the Yiddish word for grandmother) has come to feel so natural that I never stopped to consider whether it would have unfolded differently if my granddaughter had been a son’s child, not a daughter’s. But it might well have.

You hear this often: Paternal grandparents tread very carefully, mindful that a daughter-in-law might not appreciate their overtures or their frequent presence, anxious that she could limit access to their grandkids.

I thought it an old stereotype, possibly never accurate and certainly now outmoded.

But researchers exploring family affiliations point out that a so-called “matrilineal advantage” does exist. That is, daughters generally have closer ties to their own parents than to their in-laws, which leads to warmer relationships between their children and the maternal grandparents.

THE NEW OLD AGE
America at Home: Grandparents in the Attic, Children in the Basement FEB. 17, 2018

Opinion Contributing Op-Ed Writer
Mom: The Designated Worrier MAY 8, 2015
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“The mother-daughter dyads engage in more frequent phone contact, more emotional support and advice — more than mothers do with sons or fathers with daughters,” said Karen Fingerman, who teaches human development and family sciences at the University of Texas, Austin, and has published studies on this topic.

One possible explanation is that women still shoulder more of what researchers call “kinkeeping” — arranging for calls and visits, sharing family news, planning holiday gatherings.

“Women are more active in maintaining those relationships,” said Jan Mutchler, a sociologist and gerontologist at the University of Massachusetts, Boston. “When you have mothers and daughters, then you have two women working on it.”

What happens with sons and their children? “It’s about your relationship to the person they married,” Dr. Fingerman said. She has found that parents’ rapport with a daughter-in-law — “a key figure” — significantly influences their bond with her children. The connection with this gatekeeper (more than with a son-in-law, for unexplained reasons) can cement or thwart grandparental closeness.

Thus, you hear sorrowful tales like this one of a 72-year-old grandmother whose name I am not using to prevent further discord. She moved to Southern California last year to help her son and his wife with their new baby, her first grandchild. “I expected I’d be hands-on, babysitting in the evenings,” she told me.

It hasn’t worked out that way. Her daughter-in-law, whom she didn’t know well before her pregnancy, “did not want me to be close,” she said, and didn’t accept gifts and offers of help.

Among women friends her age with sons, “almost every single one says the same thing: The daughters-in-law keep them away from the children,” she said. “And the sons don’t stick up for their mothers; they have to be loyal to their wives.” Feeling excluded, the grandma plans to relocate and will visit the family every few months.

Yikes.

Let’s acknowledge how many variables can affect generational ties, like simple geography, health and whether the grandparents are working or retired. Finances matter, because disposable income makes it easier to visit from afar.

Then, consider the endless complexities of family dynamics. Despite the supposed matrilineal advantage, I know several hardworking new grandmas providing regular care for their sons’ children, and all seems amicable.

Further, we all know women stiff-arming their own mothers. Social science examines trends in groups of people, but can’t predict what happens in an individual family.

Still, a nurse on Long Island named Susan (she asked me to omit her surname, lest she contribute to familial strain), provides a kind of test case: She has an adult son and daughter, each living about 15 minutes away.

She has seen her daughter’s child, a 2-year-old boy, at least twice weekly since his birth. “He comes to our house and runs right to the toy box,” Susan said. “He knows to go into the pantry for Goldfish crackers.” Her daughter seeks her advice and may take it or not, but their relationship remains “very relaxed.”

But she can go a month without seeing her son’s two kids. “We have said, ‘You don’t need an invitation, just come over.’ We have said, ‘We need to see you more often,’” Susan said. It doesn’t seem to help; contact must be carefully orchestrated.

“My husband says, if you say anything to her” — meaning, their son’s wife — “we might not see them for two months,” Susan said. “It’s eggshells all the way.”

Wouldn’t you think this pattern would have shifted since researchers began identifying it decades ago?

Lots of boomer parents tried to raise kids with fewer gender restrictions and expectations, so aren’t those engaged dads taking on more of the kinkeeping by now? Are contemporary working mothers still under the influence of tired mother-in-law jokes and stereotypes? Or are we grandparents being pushier, and thus less welcomed by children-in-law, than we realize?

When I called Dr. Arthur Kornhaber, a child psychiatrist in California and author of The Grandparent Guide, he said he thought these differences were basically immutable.

“The bond between a woman and her mother is unique,” he said. “This is the way humans are.”

But some societies function patrilineally, so perhaps this difference, where it exists, is more cultural than biological. Over time, with sensitivity and a desire to bolster families, it might change.

Dr. Kornhaber sees the family as a pyramid, with layers of love and support underneath holding up the frazzled nuclear family, the one that’s raising the next generation. When grandparents can contribute, they strengthen the pyramid; when they’re excluded, gaps result that might weaken the whole structure.

I’m privileged and grateful to be part of such a pyramid. But maybe that’s not because of my parenting or grandparenting skills. Maybe it’s just because, 30-odd years ago, I happened to give birth to a girl.

Paula Span writes the New Old Age column in the Science section of The New York Times.

janbb's avatar

^^ Yup – that would be it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thanks @KNOWITALL. That’s not even as long as some jelly’s posts!

Yes, I have to walk on egg shells around her but you still never know. Like that insane sunflower seed war which led to me quitting. Fortunately, though, my son does defend me to a certain extent. I think if she had her way he’s cut all ties with me, but THAT ain’t happening! He loves me too much.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Welp, this is her first day back at work, having taken the baby with her. I wonder how it went.

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