What are your thoughts on what's currently happening between the Palestinians, and Israel?
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16 shot dead and hundreds wounded in a mainly peaceful demonstration over human rights speaks for itself.
Before I got home, I heard 17 dead, 750 wounded. I’ve seen video of unarmed people being shot at, and shot. It’s crazy.
The Palestinians seem to be throwing rocks, and some moltov cocktails. Does this justify the response?
Will the world condemn these acts, or stand by as usual?
I think the Palestinanisn should have made peace back when things got really close during Clinton.
Israel is too aggressive sometimes, Israel does have more fire power, but the Palestinians don’t just throw rocks. They send over rockets and use bombs and whatever else they do.
They need to make peace, this tit for tat is old and ridiculous. Supposedly, the bad people in Palestine hide among the innocent putting them in harms way. I believe it.
Israel needs to stop making settlements.
Hamas is an extremist group in my mind. What made me think this the most was before Hamas was put into power many years ago a Palestinian friend of mine, who I used to walk around my neighborhood with, one day the topic of Israel and the Palestinians came up, and she said, “It’s Hamas,” meaning Hamas was the problem. This is when I knew very little detail about what was going on in the Middle East. Now, I know more, but still limited, considering how complicated and long standing the issue is. Anyway, if a Palestinian tells me it’s Hamas, I believe it.
Having Netanyahu in charge I don’t think much will change soon. Both sides have aggressive, non-compromising leaders from what I can tell.
When the Palestinians recognize the existence of a Jewish state of Israel then I will sympathize with their demand to get back the land Israel took from them.
A plague on both their houses.
The Palestinians have been playing the victim card for 50 years (and playing it well) – their leadership doesn’t give a crap about the common man on the ground. Their leadership pays lip service to any sort of peace process, but the fact is that the leaders have gotten fat and happy with donations from the other Arab states. Hamas is a corrupt set of uneducated terrorists that are so drunk with religious fervor that they couldn’t manage their way out of a paper bag. All they know is “the struggle” and have no incentive to make peace because they would lose their power. Look at the mess they have made in Gaza in the 10 years that they have controlled it.
But the Israeli government are no angels. You have a right-wing crook as prime minister. And a bunch of religious nuts that prop him up. For fifty years Israel has done everything it can to lock in the status quo. The one guy that wanted to changed things was assassinated by a right wing religious idiot.
What the Palestinians don’t seem to realize is that their so-called Arab brethren are getting tired of supporting the crooked PA and the crooked Hamas leadership. Even Saudi Arabia is moving closer to Israel. The reasons you’re seeing the current unrest in Gaza is twofold:
- Hamas and its failed leadership in Gaza is making life even worse for people who live there
- the PA is beginning to see how irrelevant it is to anything important, and is making noise so people don’t forget it.
Neither side deserves a whole lot of respect.
I guess as a Christian and American, I’m pro-Isreal like most people I know.
Just want to give credit to Chris Hayes who actually reported (briefly) about Gaza here. This is unusual for US corporate media, which is why the U.S. is ok with their tax dollars funding Israel.
@KNOWITALL What does “I guess” mean? You’re just following based on the groups you identify with? I think of you as more thoughtful, more pensive than that.
“I’m pro-Israel” is what right-wing Americans call supporting right-wing in Israelis.
Meanwhile, plenty of Israelis would disagree with your opinions on the subject.
If you’re interested in a viewpoint not allowed on Fox News, a good place to start would be
The Gate Keepers , a film of interviews of all the living former directors of Shin Bet, the men in charge of Israeli security.
They all support a Palestinian state and they point out that Likud policies are counterproductive and even harmful to Israel.
If the Palestinians were Jewish and the Israelis were Islamic everyone would be rushing to defend Palestine and condemning Israel.
@JLeslie It’s a complicated situation but that’s what it boils down to. I honestly don’t like to get into religious discussions here because I’m a minority, but here’s the facts.-
According to a recent poll released by the Brookings Institution, 53 percent of American evangelicals supported Trump’s decision, while only 40 percent opposed it.
Roughly a third of the American evangelical population, which is something like 15 million people.
This is a movement in Christianity that’s as old as Christianity itself. You have this group of people looking around for signs of the end time, and in the 20th century when Israel was founded, this was seen as a major sign. This was electrifying for that community because the gathering of all the Jews in exile to the Holy Land is a prerequisite for all of these events unfolding. So for the subset of evangelicals in the 20th century, support for Israel became a really, really important political position.
The tenet of Christian Zionism is that God’s promise of the Holy Land to the Jews is eternal. It’s not just something in antiquity. When we talk about the Holy Land, God’s promise of the Holy Land, we’re talking about real estate on both sides of the Jordan River. So the sense of a greater Israel and expansionism is really important to this community. Jerusalem is just central to that. It’s viewed as a historical and biblical capital.
@Call_Me_Jay , Abbas declared the Oslo peace accord, which followed from the meeting you cited, null and void. Link
@KNOWITALL I know all of that. I’ve known it for years. That’s why I say that generally speaking the Jews are fairly safe in America right now, because right now the Christians like us. Well, that’s a fuzzy topic whether they actually like us, it depends on the Christian you’re talking about at the time. I think most Christians care about Israel, believe God sees Jews as the chosen people, so they care about Jews. Some extremist hate the Jews, but that’s a different story.
When Trump declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, I had friends (really more like acquaintances) saying, “it’s happening, the prophecies are happening because of Trump.”
I just didn’t think you would follow along like that even though I know you are an evangelical Christian. Basically, anything Israel does is ok, even if they slaughtered all innocent Palestinians (not that I’m saying they are doing that, I’m only using it as an example) as long as the Jewish people maintain the ability to stay in Israel and build the Temple to fulfill the prophecy for the second coming. Is that right?
If you’re answer is I support Israel, no matter what the Israelis do, for religious reasons. I’m fine with it. I guess that means there isn’t any need for an opinion on any specific thing that happens over there. I’m not saying you shouldn’t answer the Q. I get it that your answer is that you support Israel, which is what you said. I really don’t want to seem like I’m giving you are hard time.
@JLeslie The fighting has been happening for over 100 years, so my input is slim. I don’t want anyone hurt or murdered, but this all started long ago and I don’t see it ending in my lifetime, so I’m not sure what you want me to say about it.
Of course not everything anyone does is okay, especially if innocents are hurt. Unlike many evangelicals, I don’t donate money or anything like that, but I know many who do.
@LostInParadise I’m not anti any race of people, remember I’m the theist with a copy of the Quran that I actually read, trying to gain understanding, plus I love studying other cultures and religions as a hobby.
As far as my personal beliefs, I see no difference between christians of any faith and eternal damnation is up to God and the individual, not me, so it’s really none of my business to judge anyone, so I don’t. I’ve got friends of all faiths and I respect their beliefs, so whatever your point was in your sentence above, I have no problem with the Jewish people or religion.
“Data from the Pew Research Center has it that, as of 2013, about 1.6 million adult American Jews identify themselves as Christians, most as Protestants.[52][53][54] According to the same data, most of the Jews who identify themselves as some sort of Christian (1.6 million) were raised as Jews or are Jews by ancestry.[53] According to a 2012 study, 17% of Jews in Russia identify themselves as Christians.[55][56]”
@KNOWITALL: “The fighting has been happening for over 100 years, so my input is slim. I don’t want anyone hurt or murdered, but this all started long ago and I don’t see it ending in my lifetime, so I’m not sure what you want me to say about it.”
Israel’s actions are possible because of our tax money (> $3 billion per year) and US support. I think we have a larger responsibility than most in this horror.
@thisismyusername This is from someone who lives in Isreal, and I’ll second his statement. It’s a complicated issue and I don’t believe the US alone is to blame for this.
“This is a question with no clear answer. You can blame Jews, you can blame Arabs, you can blame Britain, Germany or the US. You can be more general and blame white colonialist people or the religion of Islam. Whichever you’ll choose you will only be able to encapsulate a fraction of the elements that fuelled the conflict over more than a century. All parties involved carry a burden of responsibility and arguing over who has more is futile, and will only lead people to entrench themselves deeper in their self-forgiving belief system.”
From another Isreali:
“The problem is that it is too complicated and things aren’t black or white,
I believe it is has 4 main causes:
People who think they know the solution and the problem, and doesn’t understand its complexity, for example John Curry. Nothing personal for him of course, but I’ve been to a summer camp in USA for a month few years ago, and I’ve noticed the lack of understanding of a lot of crucial things in the Middle East, and more specifically in Israel.
Corrupted leaders that are caring for their personal interests rather than peace. This happens on both sides, and on the third sides. Though i’ll explain later where it happen most.
Jihad culture. Something that developed in the Arab world in the past centuries is a culture that adore death and murder. This culture oppose every peaceful solution, every existence of others. Might be familiar to most people from ISIS, though it is live and kicking here in the Middle-West for a long time.
Unaware citizens. Now this is what I’ve said I’ll explain. In the Israeli settlements, in Yehuda and Shomron, and even more in Gaza, citizens aren’t aware of the situation, aren’t aware of their corrupted leaders and are brainwashed.”
@KNOWITALL – You can make an assessment for yourself. Recall when you first heard of South African apartheid when you were young. You likely wouldn’t have taken 2 statements from white South Africans who stated that the “situation is complicated” as proof you need to sit this one out.
The fact is that you’re in the middle of this whether you like it or not, due to your money directly having an effect on the lives (and deaths) of people. The Israel/Palestine issue is complicated. But the disproportionate brutality and oppression taking place with our support is easy to see.
@thisismyusername The US is in the middle of everything, this is nothing new and has involved many Presidents. If you want me to say that I see cruelty on both sides, of course I do. I’m not sure what you want from me, I don’t sanction my govts position on a lot of things.
^ Fair enough. All I was pointing out is that if anyone has the possibility of effecting change, it is the citizen of the US. So your opinion – and voice – matters.
@thisismyusername I’m an elected official, I know all too well that only we can affect change and the limits of that. :)
@KNOWITALL Thanks for explaining your position a little more. My first assumption was a little off.
@JLeslie It’s all good, I just don’t always have the energy for these complicated questions, but I always have an educated opinion. You can always ask for more, I will try to accomodate!
Today we learn that a journalist covering events in Gaza has been shot dead by the Israelis. An IDF spokesperson said “we never intentionally target journalists” to which I feel must be added “unless we do”.
^^That’s terrifying. My company has reporters in the Palestinian territory.
Although, I don’t believe the person was targeted.
I would like to believe the photographer wasn’t deliberately shot but as he was wearing a clearly identifiable press vest I find it hard to believe he wasn’t. The Israelis say they are “investigating” as they regularly do in such circumstances but by the time they report events will no doubt hsve moved remorselessly on.
@flutherother Was the photographer the only one killed? People get killed by friendly fire. You don’t have to be targeted to wind up dead. In fact, you don’t even need to be the enemy to wind up dead. From what I understand the Israelis often send out warnings they are about to bomb so people can take shelter. I doubt the Palestinians do that. The Palestinians target innocent people constantly. I’m not saying I know exactly what happened, but I’m not going to assume one way or the other.
The photographer wasn’t killed by friendly fire as the Palestinians had no guns and weren’t shooting. I don’t assume he was killed by the Israelis it is a fact that he was and given the circumstances I regret to say it seems likely to me he was deliberately targeted. The alternative is that Israeli soldiers were firing indiscriminately into a peaceful demonstration and given the horrendous casualty figures this is also a possibility.
I didn’t mean Palestinians killed the reporter, I only meant crazy shit happens during conflicts and war. The US has killed their own, the US has killed innocent bistanders. For all I know the US has killed reporters without any intention to, just wrong place wrong time. I’m saying it happens sometimes, and my first thought is not that it’s on purpose. It’s awful when these things happen. It is always possible some soldier, or even commander, knew there was a photographer there, I just think, believe, as policy, Israel does not target reporters.
It’s a big deal. Killing reporters. It obviously reeks of destroying transparency of the behavior of the Israeli military.
Although, what is transparent, is beyond disturbing.
Another example of religion causing chaos…
Israel also shot an unarmed man picking parsley in his field with a tank…
These are war crimes. Also the last I heard there have been 0 injuries to Israelis. To be clear, I’m very happy no Israelis have been injured, but I also think it makes the situation pretty clear that the Palestinian protesters pose little threat to the IDF—certainly not meriting the lethal tactics they’ve been employing.
I think it’s disgusting. When these flare-ups occur, Israel just basically commits genocide. I have little faith that any country will check them, or that any ramifications will befall Israel though…
Well, The way I see it, israel has a policy that if you attack them, even in a small way, israel will bombard the crap out of you, so maybe don’t even try it. It won’t be even Steven. It will be you dropped one bomb, so israel will drop 50!! That has been their tactic from where I sit.
I think it comes from the Jews being enslaved and attacked and killed throughout history, including the brutal holocaust. We, I’ll use we since I’m Jewish, are not going like lambs to slaughter again! Fuck that shit.
The world has brutalized the Jews, and because of it some of our members are a little unhinged.
You get what you give.
Tiny tiny israel is on a small piece of land surrounded by Arab countries and Iran, that hate her. Gawd, why not just leave Israel alone and let there be peace?
I think Israel is wrong to keep making settlements. I think israel is wrong to be so overboard in how it retaliates. Still, I can understand the perspective.
We are very very small in numbers, it’s just crazy to me why anyone, or any group, is so concerned about the Jewish people being on this planet. It breaks my heart that the Middle East is still at war. It’s ridiculous.
Gawd, why not just leave Israel alone and let there be peace?
Because…
It will be you dropped one bomb, so israel will drop 50!!
Israel kills thousands in revenge for the loss of dozens. Nobody is going to shrug that off. It’s terrorism.
It’s “the beatings will continue until morale improves” on a nationwide scale.
I think, I understand what @JLeslie is saying. She doesn’t agree, but understands Israe’s motivation for their behavior.
I would add that I think there’s bigotry. I think they use any excuse to hurt the Palestinians. Not all Israelis, I’m sure, but it’s obvious that some of their actions tell me they despise them.
I can understand retaliation. But their really holding an entire country responsible for the actions of Hammas (a terrorist organization.) I wouldn’t want the someone to hold hold the US responsible for the actions of one of our terrorist groups. That’s certainly unfair to the general population.
I would also add that these overreactions will do nothing to advance Israeli/Palestinian relations. So the goal, to me, seems clear. Israel has no intention of ever playing a different role than oppressor. They don’t want to be fair.
That’s just wrong, to me…
Plenty of Israelis want to be “fair.” Just like I’m sure plenty of Palestinians want peace, want a compromise.
Seriously, I’ve said this before, watch the documentary Previous Life. See how an Israeli donates $50k to save the life of a Palestinian baby. See how the staff at the Israeli hospital are only good to the family. See how when the mother of the baby is asked if the baby grows up and wants to be a martyr if she’s ok with it. Her answer is yes (your heart sinks when she says it) and then later she admits that she feels like she has to say that because of family and friends. The oppression in the Palestinian territory is not only Israel, it is their own people. Not that every Palestinian is like that, of course not. The Palestinians I know are great.
My question is, if you took every Jew out of Israel, then bombed all the infrastructure, because I believe no Jew wants to give what they built if they have to leave, and the Palestinians can have the land, will the Palestinians suddenly get rid of Hamas? Will the ultra religious stop oppressing the women? Will it all finally get all better, and peace will reign in the Middle East?
Will the Palestinian leadership ever agree to a compromise? Or, do they want the destruction of Israel? I don’t know what most of them living there really want, or what they are willing to settle for.
I guess the religious differences are just too strong.
It’s been a culture of hate on both sides for so long. But one people is oppressing another. This thread was originally started about the current violence, and not peace in the middle east. Remove all religion, and there would be many less obstacles to peace.
I don’t see it as primarily a religious thing. I see it as a land thing.
Well. The land has value that religion gives it, correct? As far as Jerusalem, and other holy places?
^^There certainly are some Zionists in Israel, but as I once saw William Shatner say, “Israel is Israel, because of a UN decision.”
40% of Jews identify as secular. That stat seems to be consistent in the US and Israel. Sure, even secular Jews care about the religious sights, but probably all religious sights, not just the Jewish ones.
Maybe Jews wouldn’t be so concerned about having a Jewish homeland if everyone wasn’t always trying to kill them so often. Who is trying to kill the Palestinians around the world? Meanwhile, it’s basically moot, because now Israel has been built up by the Jews, so they’re not going to just leave.
The choice of Israel continuing it’s behavior or giving up and disappearing is a ridiculous false dichotomy.
Agreed.
@JLeslie .You bring up removing Jewish people again. I have nothing against Jewish people. I have a problem with how the country of Israel behaves. Can you imagine if hundreds of protestors were shot, in America? (Yes, I know some were throwing rocks, and moltov cocktails, and burning tires.) Was the response called for?
Hey, I’m with you. I don’t want israel to always be so aggressive. The US goes in and does stuff like that even when they aren’t directly hit. Iraq was preemptive! That’s why so many were against it.
The question of the Jews leaving Israel is not asking if you have something against the Jewish people, I never assumed any such thing. The question is if the Jews left Israel, then do you believe the Palestinians will then build a prosperous country with freedoms and all the things you feel they are being prevented from having now? Can we really blame Israel for all the hardships and oppression the Palestinian people there endure? The question is about a Palestinian country in the Middle East, not about the Jews or a Jewish country.
Can we really blame Israel for all the hardships and oppression the Palestinian people there endure? In the occupied territories, yes.
They are virtual prisons. The Israelis control the borders, the water, the imports, the exports.
Keeping the territories in poverty is an Israeli policy.
They shove settlers in and give them full lives at the expense of the Palestinians.
It is a situation guaranteed to provoke resentment and hatred.
No people will endure it without reacting. They fight.
University of Chicago Project on Security & Terrorism – “Despite a popular belief that suicide terrorism is the result of religious fanaticism, such bombings are really a calculated response to occupations by outsiders, according to research in a new book, Cutting the Fuse: The Explosion of Global Suicide Terrorism and How to Stop It. The book examines exhaustive data on suicide attacks since 1980 in the Middle East, Chechnya, Sri Lanka and around the world.”
What makes someone an outsider? Pretty big coincidence that Arabs and Jews and Shiites and Sunnis see each other as outsiders.
If Israel suddenly disappeared, there would still be fighting in the Middle East. Just look at Syria ans Qatar.
@JLeslie . I ain’t mad at ya. I am in disagreement with Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
I’m not saying Palestinians wouldn’t act the same way with the tables turned. I’m just not a fan of any civilian population being murdered. That’s what I feel is happening. Israel is using the actions of a few, to murder many…
Again, that’s my interpretation of the situation.
@MrGrimm888 “Israel is using the actions of a few, to murder many…”
I’m even more cynical. I think the Israeli government is deliberately fostering the oppressive environment in the occupied territories, with the intention of encouraging minor terrorist acts, which can be used to allow Israel to pretend it’s the victim, all the while they’re expanding settlements. Israel can’t steal land without being able to play the victim game.
You could substitute any group of people into the Palestinians position and I guarantee some of them would fight back with gorilla-tactics/“terrorism.” Palestinians are really in a loose-loose situation. Every day, their land shrinks. If they do nothing and peacefully allow it to happen they will have nothing left. If they protest silently, the world/media won’t care and ignore them and eventually they’ll have nothing left, if they act out violently, they will get international attention that may lead to action from the international community to prevent Israel from illegally expanding into occupied territory. It’s really a disgusting situation, but the Israeli government is almost entirely to blame for the current situation.
@MrGrimm888 No, I am not talking about tables turned. I’m saying, will the Palestinians be a democracy? Will Muslim leaders have a lot of control like many other Muslim countries? Will Palestine prosper? Will they have the state of the art medical care Israel has? Is Israel really the main thing stopping them from having a good, free, life with opportunity for education, health, etc. or, does their culture screw it up too. Are there still going to be a lot of women, like the one with the sick baby, who says things like she has little control, because she has to submit to the wishes of the men. Is that israel’s fault? She talks in the movie about the grass, the green, in Israel, and how nice it is compared to where they live.
I saw on NAS Daily that some millionaire, maybe he is a billionaire, is developing a modern city in the Palestinian territory. I’m interested to see how that goes.
Is Israel really the main thing stopping them from having a good, free, life with opportunity for education, health, etc. or, does their culture screw it up too
You keep asking because you don’t get the answer you want – “Palestinians are animals who can’t control themselves so Israel must keep keep them suppressed.”
The real answer, which you refuse to hear, is there is no freedom in an occupation. They can’t travel, They can’t build. They can’t trade. An occupation is a loosely held prison. Palestinians are required to carry papers to show at checkpoints and roadblocks to travel within their own territories.
Palestinians in Jerusalem are not allowed to stay if they marry a non-Jerusalem resident. Palestinian farmers have been walled off from their lands.
It’s akin to apartheid. It’s akin to Cold War life in Eastern Europe.
^^Bullshit! I’m on Facebook sharing NAS Daily, a Palestinian-Israeli with a message of unity, I also did a Q here. The company I work for reports from the Palestinian Territory. I have friends who are Palestinians. I danced at my friends wedding, she a Jewish-American, and he a Palestinian-American. I also grew up with friends who were Iranian, Pakistani, etc. etc. I don’t have a negative thought about the “people.”
I have a concern about how those countries are set up, and a minority of people within them, who seem to be in power, who keep their people oppressed.
My Iranian friends and acquaintances left their country, because they too had a concern, this was back in the 70’s when the shit hit the fan. They fled. Iran seems to be on America’s shitlist, but for me, not the Iranian people, not even close. I just use Iran as an analogy.
If you believe the Palestinians will prosper and get rid of Hamas if Israel disappeared then that’s the answer to my question. My question is simply a question. If that your opinion I sincerely want that to be true. I don’t want it to be that israel disappears to prove the point though, I hope there can be a treaty for peace.
I have a concern about how those countries are set up, and a minority of people within them, who seem to be in power, who keep their people oppressed.
Because living under the Israeli “papers please” military occupation with total control of water, trade, and movement isn’t like that at all.
Rolls eyes
@Call_Me_Jay It might be exactly like that. The question is, will it still be like that? I guess your answer is no. I hope you’re right.
Take your eye roll. Why is that necessary. You want to believe I’m a bigot, go ahead. You aren’t really reading my words. I’m not defending the harshness of the Israelis, I was attempting to explain the perspective. Then I asked a question, I don’t think I’ve had a clear answer from anyone about my specific question. I would completely accept anyone’s opinion who feels Palestine would prosper and be free if that’s their opinion. That’s my only question.
This question is about what is currently happening which is unarmed demonstrators being wounded or shot dead by the Israeli military. To me it is clearly wrong and unacceptable behaviour that cannot be justified by putting it into “perspective”.
I heard a quote on the radio yesterday from Brian Friel I thought relevant to this “To remember everything is a form of madness”.
I’m not trying to justify it. Just to be clear.
@JLeslie I didn’t think for a moment you were justifying it, neither am I. War is hell and we all know it and it appears to me that both sides are participating for their own reasons. Again, it’s been over a hundred years of this!
William T. Sherman quotes “It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”
OK, I accept you are not trying to justify what happened but why go on to tell us “War is hell”. There is no war with Gaza and war is not an excuse for immoral or illegal behaviour anyway. That is made clear by the Geneva Conventions.
So. Why is this behavior tolerated, by the International community?
^^Internationally there seems to be less and less tolerance for it. America still seems to be very biased on the side of Israel no matter what they do, although there are definitely people and politicians in America who criticize some of what Israel does, but in Europe for sure there is a lot of backlash against Israel’s actions. When Kerry made that statement at the UN about Israel not being able to sustain being a democracy with the one state solution and about the settlements half of America went crazy, but half of America sees his point. I use the term half loosely.
It’s so complicated. Even though I don’t always support Israel’s response, I do think she is justified in defending herself. So, I’m specifically talking about responding to an aggression, not being the initial aggressor. Although, it’s been going on forever, so it’s almost a chicken and egg scenario.
It is an incredibly depressing situation.
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